Can We Talk About Shardplate?

[hoser]

I don't entirely agree with this.

I ... I thought the books made it fairly obvious that the gems were only there to act as Stormlight batteries. When the gems run out, the plate gets heavy. A surgebinder then wouldn't need the gems at all, as Kaladin shows in the arena with the helm-gauntlet.

The gems do seem to function as stormlight batteries and may not be necessary for the Shardplate to act as armor for a Surgebinder. 

That does not prove or make obvious to me that the gems have no other function.  The Armor could have additional functionality with particular gems, for example.  Consider the following quote:

Next, they set the sabatons— armor for his boots— on the floor before him. They encased his boots entirely and had a rough surface on the bottoms that seemed to cling to rock. The interiors glowed with the light of the sapphires in their indented pockets.

The boot armor, which seems to demonstrate adhesion, has gems of the Windrunner color.  It could be random or coincidence, but why would Brandon specifically mention the gem type if it weren't relevant? It is at least possible that the gems, or particular gems, enhance the functionality of parts of the armor.  

We can only guess until we commission Navani and Sigzil to measure the adhesion with different types of gems in the boot armor.  Other parts of the armor could function in enhanced ways with particular gems. 

[dvoraen]

But we also know that 1. Szeth is less efficient (or something) in terms of his use of stormlight than Kaladin is after 3 oaths and 2. that kaladin gets more efficient as he swears his oaths (or at least I think we know this.  I could be misremembering).  This would lead to the conclusion that a full radiant (all five ideals sworn) could power the plate much more easily than szeth or kaladin can right now, and so might not need as much of a backup supply as szeth does.

There's also the fact that we don't know what the difference between Szeth and a Herald are, when it concerns using an Honorblade (assuming said Herald was properly bound to their Honorblade).  It's been implied that the Heralds could do more with them, but exactly what we don't know.  I do think it's safe to say that he was using Jezrien's Honorblade imperfectly, much as a Radiant's use of Stormlight is inefficient in the early stages of the Nahel bond's deployment.

Edited March 24, 2015 by dvoraen

[Blaze1616]

The boot armor, which seems to demonstrate adhesion, has gems of the Windrunner color.  It could be random or coincidence, but why would Brandon specifically mention the gem type if it weren't relevant? It is at least possible that the gems, or particular gems, enhance the functionality of parts of the armor.  

 

Though a reasonable argument, Brandon has pointed out gem types for no reason before. Why specify that the puddle in the Chasms glowed that purplish color due to a gem? If I recall correctly that served no greater purpose. Just because there is a level of detail does not make the detail important by default. That being said, you could be completely right, and the gems do serve a greater purpose. I find myself doubting it, though, as I think there is more reason to think they don't.

[StormingTexan]

Consider the following quote:

The boot armor, which seems to demonstrate adhesion, has gems of the Windrunner color.  It could be random or coincidence, but why would Brandon specifically mention the gem type if it weren't relevant? It is at least possible that the gems, or particular gems, enhance the functionality of parts of the armor.  

We can only guess until we commission Navani and Sigzil to measure the adhesion with different types of gems in the boot armor.  Other parts of the armor could function in enhanced ways with particular gems. 

 

Elhokar's shardplate had 10 sapphires. Not sure if this disproves the theory but it is obvious it was in more pieces than just his boots. 

 

 

“The question drove me to investigate the king’s Shardplate,” Sadeas said. “Eight of the ten sapphires used to infuse his Plate were cracked following the battle.”

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 758). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Edited March 24, 2015 by StormingTexan

[hoser]

My point is that we don't know whether the gems have additional functionality.  Based on the evidence in the books, I am aware of nothing significant that would lead one to believe one way or the other.  Please feel free to enlighten me as to what I'm missing. 

In the absence of evidence, I love people speculating.  Passing baseless speculation off as evidence-based conclusions seems like it could mislead people.   

Note: Italics added to quotes by me

I ... I thought the books made it fairly obvious that the gems were only there to act as Stormlight batteries.

If this said something like: I imagine that the gems were only there to act as Stormlight batteries, I would love it. The italicized phrase looks like handwavium being applied to baseless speculation to me and I am concerned that it could be misleading.  

 

Though a reasonable argument, Brandon has pointed out gem types for no reason before. Why specify that the puddle in the Chasms glowed that purplish color due to a gem? If I recall correctly that served no greater purpose. Just because there is a level of detail does not make the detail important by default. That being said, you could be completely right, and the gems do serve a greater purpose. I find myself doubting it, though, as I think there is more reason to think they don't.

Note that I am not saying that the gems do provide additional functionality.  I am not saying that it is obvious based on no evidence.  I am not saying there is more reason to believe that they do.  I am saying that it is possible, and providing extremely weak supporting evidence. 

On the other hand, "there is more reason to think they don't" backed by no evidence or reason just looks like more handwavium to me.  What am I missing?

Edited March 24, 2015 by hoser

[Nicroburst]

Actually, now that it's been mentioned that's decidedly odd. Have we ever heard of Shards not being powered with Saphires?

Now that its been brought up, i'm inclined to believe that Sapphires are used -- not because of its efficiency with adhesion -- but because it's not as useful in soul casting. It's been said that emeralds are most useful in working with organics like food, it might just be that Sapphires hold stormlight well but aren't as useful in Soulcasting.

[Blaze1616]

...

 

All right, I see your point. My arguments are that the gems have not been shown to have any greater function than to be the Stormlight batteries we've been discussing. Brandon has detailed gem types to no greater purpose in scenes that do not relate to Shardplate, causing his specification of gem type in regards to Shardplate to be nothing special. In addition, the arena fight where Kaladin fuels the helm with his Stormlight, and the helm functions as normal without gems in it, is pretty hard evidence. To top that off, we know Sprenblades do not require gems, while Deadblades do. With Shardplate being counterpart to the Shardblades, it seems fairly obvious to me. You might disagree with that assessment, and again that assessment might be wrong, but that's where I'm coming from.

[StormingTexan]

Actually, now that it's been mentioned that's decidedly odd. Have we ever heard of Shards not being powered with Saphires?

Now that its been brought up, i'm inclined to believe that Sapphires are used -- not because of its efficiency with adhesion -- but because it's not as useful in soul casting. It's been said that emeralds are most useful in working with organics like food, it might just be that Sapphires hold stormlight well but aren't as useful in Soulcasting.

 

 

I was wondering the same thing and tried to do some searches in the books and I could not find any other gem (when specifically named) powering shardplate. 

[hoser]

All right, I see your point. My arguments are that the gems have not been shown to have any greater function than to be the Stormlight batteries we've been discussing.

If that had been your argument, I would have no issue with it.  I agree with that.  There is no significant supporting evidence that I am aware of. 

When you say "there is more reason to think they don't" and "the books made it fairly obvious that the gems were only there to act as Stormlight batteries," it seems to me that you are arguing that the gems have been shown to have no greater function, a very different thing.

All right, ...Brandon has detailed gem types to no greater purpose in scenes that do not relate to Shardplate, causing his specification of gem type in regards to Shardplate to be nothing special.

In one instance.  That is not evidence that every time he mentions gem type, it is not significant.  We know that gem type is important in Soulcasting, for example. 

 

All right, ...In addition, the arena fight where Kaladin fuels the helm with his Stormlight, and the helm functions as normal without gems in it, is pretty hard evidence. ...

Do we know what normal helm functioning in a level 5 Radiant as part of a full set of Shardplate with specific gems in specific locations is?  This is evidence of nothing.  Yes, Shardhelms protect against Shardblades and draw stormlight to repair themselves.  We knew that.  How is this evidence that gems do not provide any other functionality?

 

All right, ....  we know Sprenblades do not require gems, while Deadblades do. With Shardplate being counterpart to the Shardblades, it seems fairly obvious to me. You might disagree with that assessment, and again that assessment might be wrong, but that's where I'm coming from.

Sure, argument by analogy.  And the analogy is that ...? How does this provide evidence that gems do not provide anything other than stormlight to Shardplate?  Is the Shardplate more like Deadblades than Liveblades?  Neither live nor dead sprenblades use gems as batteries.  In dead sprenblades, the gems provide non-battery functionality.  Isn't this evidence against your point? 

I could also make an analogy to soulcasters, where the gem types do matter, saying that these are more comparable fabrials, as the sprenblades are Nahel-Bond Spren and these other fabrials are different. Honestly, we know so little about these things that these analogies are both so stretched as to be meaningless IMO. 

Argument by stretched analogy is extremely weak, IMO and does not justify saying "the books made it fairly obvious" or "there is more reason to think".  

Edited March 24, 2015 by hoser

[StormingTexan]

Just to add there were a couple times when specific gemstones were described for specific purposes as mentioned emeralds for soul casting food and rubies for spanreeds (also amethyst to create the opposite of what a spanreed does) . So I agree it is not out of the realm of possibility that sapphires could also specifically be used for shardplate however I do not see a correlation between it specifically being for boots or any particular part of the plate to serve a specific function(from what I found the shardplate we know of seems to be solely powered by sapphires) but could be for windrunners. Meaning the shardplate we know of could have been from windrunners. Which may or may not explain why the old KR glowed with the color of their orders (not sure why it wouldn't do the same now though). Really just not enough info either way. 

 

Personal speculation I am with the camp that believes KR do not need gems to power their shardplate. I think it was an addition made to the shardplate so non surgebinders could use shardplate. Just like the gems added to deadblades to summon them. Biggest proof we have so far on this is Kalidin using the helm powered by his stormlight instead of gems. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by StormingTexan

[Moogle]

Actually, now that it's been mentioned that's decidedly odd. Have we ever heard of Shards not being powered with Saphires?

Now that its been brought up, i'm inclined to believe that Sapphires are used -- not because of its efficiency with adhesion -- but because it's not as useful in soul casting. It's been said that emeralds are most useful in working with organics like food, it might just be that Sapphires hold stormlight well but aren't as useful in Soulcasting.

 

I like this idea a lot. I'm feeling a little stupid for not thinking of it myself. It makes perfect sense. Sapphires and smokestone serve the same purpose in Soulcasting essentially - you turn something you don't want into a substance that just disappears. Because of the fact you can substitute one for the other, and the fact that generally there's not a whole lot you want to disappear (latrines are the only thing coming to mind), it would make perfect sense for sapphire and smokestone to be cheap relative to the other gems, which naturally makes them perfect for Shardplate.

 

Also: Elhokar, as a Kholin, may just like blue.

 

The other near-worthless Soulcasting gem would be ruby for fire (even more useless than sapphire, since turning latrine waste into fire is more dangerous). Because of heating fabrials being a thing though, ruby demand might be going up, and we don't know what the pre-existing supply is like.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

What color Gemstones come from Chasmfiends? Is it a specific color or random? I can't remember.

[Wonko the Sane]

Everyone is forgetting that a fabrial is more than just an infused gemstone. From Navani's notebook, we can infer that they require captive spren, and probably a wire frame arranged in a specific pattern. If Shardplate was a fabrial, replacing the gemstones would likely be significantly more difficult than it is. Moreover, you'd think that at least one character would have remarked upon the frames in the text.

 

I do, however, think there is some significance to the fact that every single gem in Elhokar's plate was a sapphire, even if that significance is merely that sapphires are the cheapest gems available. There is also the possibility that each suit of Plate only accepts the gem corresponding to the order of the Radiant who originally generated it.

[aczh1]

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/23974-different-types-of-gemstones/

 

Lengthy post I wrote where I gathered as much textual evidence as I could from the book concerning gem color/function.

 

I personally think that the type of gem in Shardplate does not matter. In my scanning of the text, whenever a gem is connected to Shardplate, it's a sapphire. However, this could be due to the fact that the Kholin color is blue (like moogle said)

 

And moogle, if you make claims about what each gem does, you should back it up with textual evidence! I never found anything suggesting that certain soulcasting required certain gems.

Edited March 26, 2015 by aczh1

[Awesomness]

i had a topic like 2 days ago talking about shardplate being lesser spren like when kaliden gathers wind spren around him or shallan gathers creation spren and they form a lesser bond

 

since the lesser spren are mindless they wouldn't scream when forced to be plate like any other fabrel

 

That theory has been forming in the back of my mind since I read the chapter where Kaladin falls throw the sky for the firs time, gathering windspren.

I bet every order has a kind of lesser spren related, that turn into shardplates when de radiant is advanced in his/her oaths. 

 

Maybe modern sharplates use gems to "capture" this lesser sprens and keep the plate working... (I´ve to give more though to this)

[galendo]

And moogle, if you make claims about what each gem does, you should back it up with textual evidence! I never found anything suggesting that certain soulcasting required certain gems.

I'm pretty certain there's a line saying that emeralds are most valuable because they can produce food.  I don't remember where it is, though, other than somewhere in TWoK.

[Moogle]

And moogle, if you make claims about what each gem does, you should back it up with textual evidence! I never found anything suggesting that certain soulcasting required certain gems.

 

There is a Soulcasting properties table for gemstones in the Ars Arcanum. It is noted throughout the novels that specific gemstones create specific materials - in particular, it is noted that when Jasnah Soulcasts the thugs, her smokestone breaks when she turns them into smoke, and her diamond dims when she turns one to crystal. Shallan specifically notes emeralds are useful for creating food in WoK:

Emeralds were the most valuable, for they could be used by Soulcasters to create food.

[HalfShard]

Responding back to the glass/liquid hypothesis, while that does make sense, weren't the blades and plate described as metallic? This may just be something I'm imagining, but I'm certain it's in there somewhere. It could be some kind of metal that follows those properties.

[natc]

Responding back to the glass/liquid hypothesis, while that does make sense, weren't the blades and plate described as metallic? This may just be something I'm imagining, but I'm certain it's in there somewhere. It could be some kind of metal that follows those properties.

The metal's natural properties must be extremely distorted then, because I can't think of any metal that doesn't just dent. It's the whole point of using metal.

[SharpShrapnel]

Hey guys, long time lurker first time post. Just thought I'd add a few thoughts since this topic has been on my mind and I just finished a mineralogy course.

 

The metal's natural properties must be extremely distorted then, because I can't think of any metal that doesn't just dent. It's the whole point of using metal.

 

I can think of a few metals off the top of my head that shatter. Tungsten Carbide is one of them. While technically not a metal, it has the appearance of a metal. Many grooms use it for their wedding rings because it is extremely hard. Hard as in resistant to scratches or abrasion. Unfortunately, in most circumstances as the hardness increases it becomes more brittle. Iron under the right circumstances can also shatter rather than dent. However, I like the crystal idea someone had earlier. Little known fact, a lot of metals can be grown as crystals. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Most likely it is a compound that has yet to be identified. In reality us humans have yet to even scratch the surface on possible combinations of elements. I have a friend who uses a super computer in order to discover the properties of new alloys. 

 

Basically what I'm saying is that whatever the shard plate is made out of, it probably grows like a crystal and has high material strength. The trade off for the high strength is that it is brittle and fractures instead of denting. The stormlight provided by either a radiant or a gemstone gives the shardplate the energy to grow the crystals since they probably don't spontaneously happen in nature. Where the actual materials come from I have no idea. 

[jefftucker0525]

What color Gemstones come from Chasmfiends? Is it a specific color or random? I can't remember.

 

I might be wrong but im pretty sure theyre always emeralds

[Patrick Star]

They could also be diamond nanothreads. Literally the strongest material in the universe (mathematically speaking).

Edited March 27, 2015 by Patrick Star

[ccstat]

Gemhearts:

What color Gemstones come from Chasmfiends? Is it a specific color or random? I can't remember.

I might be wrong but im pretty sure theyre always emeralds

To my knowledge it hasn't been confirmed either way, though I've seen speculation on both sides. Every gemheart specified in the books so far has been an emerald, but there over a dozen mentioned without any reference to color/type.

 

There were several pre-WoR threads dealing with gem currency issues. One of them included economic calculations based on the number of gemhearts harvested and their use in soulcasting food, with the conclusion that only about 1 in 10 gemhearts could be an emerald if the Listeners were in danger of running out of food. However, we now know that Sigzil's guess about them soulcasting food was off; instead the Listeners use stormlight directly to help their crops grow. What that means in terms of gem type requirements and renewability I don't know. That shortage doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

Shardplate:

Personally, I find it most likely that the cousin-spren theory is correct, given the wording of several RAFO answers, especially this one. Prior to WoR I thought the spren-are-shardblades theory was ridiculous, a lazy connection with no textual support. Turns out I was wrong (added it to the list in my sig--there's been at least one major thing per series). To be honest, I was actually a bit disappointed when it turned out to be spren after all. Regardless, along with the reasons already posted in this thread, it seems most likely that living plate would be spren-forged as well. (Though it does make me curious what type of spren would be cousin to the Stormfather...  )

[Patrick Star]

By the way, I'm pretty sure that chasmfiend gemhearts are always emerald.  The Parshendi need them to soulcast food, which is a use reserved for emeralds.

[hoser]

IIRC, the listeners don't have Soulcasters (despite Alethi speculation).  They just put the gems next to the plants to help them grow, which might work with any gem.