[Spoilers]David Got Seriously Screwed [\spoliers]

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I agree I think David's weakness to water is a huge assumption and maybe just a red herring. There was no past traumatic experience with water mentioned. The only traumatic experience that is revealed over and over is his fathers death (which had nothing to do with water) so I think it's a lot more logical to assume it has something to do with that. My guess is it's a fear of being a coward or inaction.

I think David would call having a ball and chain strapped to his ankle and being shoved into a lake pretty traumatic.

[StormingTexan]

I think David would call having a ball and chain strapped to his ankle and being shoved into a lake pretty traumatic.

I think anyone would say that is traumatic. That is a pretty recent thing though and the water stuff came up before this. On the contrary the whole reason he was where he was to have a ball chained to him was the traumatic experience of his dad being killed in front of him.

[Kobold King]

I agree I think David's weakness to water is a huge assumption and maybe just a red herring. There was no past traumatic experience with water mentioned and I don't see how it wouldn't be if there was one. I think he was more uncomfortable or unfamiliar around water than afraid of it. This is from lack of experience with it. Slowly he became more comfortable with it like when he used the water jet pack thing (can't think of the name). It wasn't his greatest fear maybe just "a fear". Not anything like fire for Megan who almost died in a house fire.

The only traumatic experience that is revealed over and over is his fathers death (which had nothing to do with water) so I think it's a lot more logical to assume it has something to do with that. My guess is it's a fear of being a coward or inaction.

The water jetpack was the spyril!

...I have nothing else to add. I just happened to remember that piece of trivia.

[StormingTexan]

The water jetpack was the spyril!

...I have nothing else to add. I just happened to remember that piece of trivia.

Don't know why I couldn't remember that!

I'm going to re-read a little because now I'm doubting myself. I was thinking the ball and chain thing was after a little while but now I remember it was close to the begening. Not sure if he started talking about the water before this happened now.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I think anyone would say that is traumatic. That is a pretty recent thing though and the water stuff came up before this. On the contrary the whole reason he was where he was to have a ball chained to him was the traumatic experience of his dad being killed in front of him.

True, but how did David manage to avoid the Rending, if the water fear--which is the fear Calamity latches onto, and the fear he faces just in time to meet Calamity--was a red herring? Wouldn't Calamity have just used a different fear?

Furthermore, I think David faced the fears born on the day his dad was killed. Living in Newcago would've forced him to face the fear of losing people he loved, or of seeing people die, or being helpless. Besides, if he had any residual fear from the bank incident, I think he would've faced them when he had his showdown with Steelheart.

[StormingTexan]

Furthermore, I think David faced the fears born on the day his dad was killed. Living in Newcago would've forced him to face the fear of losing people he loved, or of seeing people die, or being helpless. Besides, if he had any residual fear from the bank incident, I think he would've faced them when he had his showdown with Steelheart.

 

Exactly he has already faced and overcome his worst fear (weakness). My thoughts is something will come up in book 3 to challenge this again. 

 

 

True, but how did David manage to avoid the Rending, if the water fear--which is the fear Calamity latches onto, and the fear he faces just in time to meet Calamity--was a red herring? Wouldn't Calamity have just used a different fear?

 

 

Yes Calamity latches on to this new found fear of water that I do not think is his real "worst fear". Maybe he did this because David had already concurred his worst fear and this was all that was left. But it is not his true worst fear and therefore not a weakness. Possible that was how David was able to avoid the rending. He was being made an epic after he already concurred his worst fears. 

 

 

The water thing just does not jive with me. All the other fears/weakness we have seen are the result of some deep rooted life changing past traumatic event. Although I completely agree the ball and chain thing is traumatic it does not seem to be tied to any other major life event up to this point so seems way to convenient to me. In fact if water does turn out to be his fear I would be very disappointed as it lacks all the depth of story the other ones that have been reviled have. 

 

 

Also I re-read and he talks about the water pretty much right when they get to Babilar. So if this is his fear it would have had to been established before the ball and chain event and that could not be the traumatic event. Also notice the choice of words in this first quote. 

 

 

Something about those dark depths made me strangely uncomfortable.

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2015-01-06). Firefight (Reckoners Book 2) (p. 65). Random House Children's Books. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

[Voidus]

 

Exactly he has already faced and overcome his worst fear (weakness). My thoughts is something will come up in book 3 to challenge this again. 

 

 

 

Yes Calamity latches on to this new found fear of water that I do not think is his real "worst fear". Maybe he did this because David had already concurred his worst fear and this was all that was left. But it is not his true worst fear and therefore not a weakness. Possible that was how David was able to avoid the rending. He was being made an epic after he already concurred his worst fears. 

 

 

The water thing just does not jive with me. All the other fears/weakness we have seen are the result of some deep rooted life changing past traumatic event. Although I completely agree the ball and chain thing is traumatic it does not seem to be tied to any other major life event up to this point so seems way to convenient to me. In fact if water does turn out to be his fear I would be very disappointed as it lacks all the depth of story the other ones that have been reviled have. 

 

 

Also I re-read and he talks about the water pretty much right when they get to Babilar. So if this is his fear it would have had to been established before the ball and chain event and that could not be the traumatic event. Also notice the choice of words in this first quote. 

 

 

 

 

Steelhearts fear of not being feared was no where near as traumatic as nearly drowning.

When I was younger someone pushed me out of a boat when I wasn't wearing a life jacket. I wasn't in any real danger of dying but it was one of the most terrifying moments in my entire life. Consequently I now avoid oceans like the plague. I think you're underestimating just how powerful a fear it can be.

[StormingTexan]

Steelhearts fear of not being feared was no where near as traumatic as nearly drowning.

 

Actually we do not know enough to make that assumption one way or the other since we are only getting David's POV. We know what his fear is but we do not know what the traumatic event or events were that triggered Steelhearts fear. IIR he was a bully? Maybe someone stood up to the bully and beat him within an inch of his life or heck stabbed him or something. That would be traumatic and warrant his fear of not being feared.

 

 

 

Edit: When I was a kid (like 4) I was trying to fish ball out of a pool and fell in. I didn't know how to swim luckily my dad saw me and jumped in I know what you mean about being afraid of water embarrassingly I was like 12 before I learned how to swim because I was so scarred of water. 

 

The thing is people have multiple fears but for epics it is what they fear the most that ends up as their weakness (personally I think Calamity puts this in as a fail safe to keep his epics from getting too powerful). I mean if you asked David is he scared of bullets I would venture to say he would say yes. But bullets are not his worst fear/weakness. I do not think water is either as we have nothing revealed of a past traumatic experience with water. Like I said earlier he starts talking about the water creeping him out before the ball and chain thing. The thing he does talk about that I would call a life changing traumatic experience is his father getting murdered in front of him.

Edited May 6, 2015 by StormingTexan

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Actually we do not know enough to make that assumption one way or the other since we are only getting David's POV. We know what his fear is but we do not know what the traumatic event or events were that triggered Steelhearts fear. IIR he was a bully? Maybe someone stood up to the bully and beat him within an inch of his life or heck stabbed him or something. That would be traumatic and warrant his fear of not being feared.

Edit: When I was a kid (like 4) I was trying to fish ball out of a pool and fell in. I didn't know how to swim luckily my dad saw me and jumped in I know what you mean about being afraid of water embarrassingly I was like 12 before I learned how to swim because I was so scarred of water.

The thing is people have multiple fears but for epics it is what they fear the most that ends up as their weakness (personally I think Calamity puts this in as a fail safe to keep his epics from getting too powerful). I mean if you asked David is he scared of bullets I would venture to say he would say yes. But bullets are not his worst fear/weakness. I do not think water is either as we have nothing revealed of a past traumatic experience with water. Like I said earlier he starts talking about the water creeping him out before the ball and chain thing. The thing he does talk about that I would call a life changing traumatic experience is his father getting murdered in front of him.

Yes, but if so, why didn't Calamity just use the fear of seeing his father murdered in the first place? Why bother with the water fear at all? And if Calamity was using one of those other fears, why was David focused on his water fear at the time? It seems like Calamity would've gotten him into a state of mind where he was focused on another fear.

[StormingTexan]

Yes, but if so, why didn't Calamity just use the fear of seeing his father murdered in the first place? Why bother with the water fear at all? And if Calamity was using one of those other fears, why was David focused on his water fear at the time? It seems like Calamity would've gotten him into a state of mind where he was focused on another fear.

Well for one his dad can only die once and it's already happened so that's not going to be a good weakness. Also by this point David had pretty much already overcame this fear by killing Steelheart. I think his "worst fear" is letting someone he cares about die due to his inaction or cowardness.

So maybe David's worst fear was just off the table for Calamity and he picks water instead but it is not really David's worst fear.

Edited May 6, 2015 by StormingTexan

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Well for one his dad can only die once and it's already happened so that's not going to be a good weakness. Also by this point David had pretty much already overcame this fear by killing Steelheart. I think his "worst fear" is letting someone he cares about die due to his inaction or cowardness.

So maybe David's worst fear was just off the table for Calamity and he picks water instead but it is not really David's worst fear.

Thus far, we don't have any evidence one way or the other whether Calamity ties the powers to all trauma, or just the worst one, but from what we've seen it looks like the latter is happening. If the corruption is tied to one specific trauma, why would facing another have any impact?

[StormingTexan]

Thus far, we don't have any evidence one way or the other whether Calamity ties the powers to all trauma, or just the worst one, but from what we've seen it looks like the latter is happening. If the corruption is tied to one specific trauma, why would facing another have any impact?

For arguments sake we can only assume it is your worst fear that's all that's been revealed. Sure it's possible it's not but we have nothing to support that and everything to support the alternative.

Facing the other fear had no impact. I think the fact he has already faced his worst fear was what allowed him to reject the powers (or at least the rendering I think he still got the powers just doesn't know it yet.)

I feel like I just keep circling around on this so I'm going to stop after this. I just think the water deal is way too easy. Granted there was tons of iluding to water being his fear but it does not match up to all the other fears we have learned about. It just all of the sudden comes up as soon as he arrives to Babilar. It's his worst fear and he almost dies from drowning yet it's not bad enough for him to not go floating around above the sea using a water jet pack he barely knows how to use (that's like Megan using a flamethrower as a weapon who would buy that?). It was also a little too convenient that the main protagonist is an epic that controls water and yep guess what the antagonist is afraid of water.

Edited May 7, 2015 by StormingTexan

[Voidus]

For arguments sake we can only assume it is your worst fear that's all that's been revealed. Sure it's possible it's not but we have nothing to support that and everything to support the alternative.

Facing the other fear had no impact. I think the fact he has already faced his worst fear was what allowed him to reject the powers (or at least the rendering I think he still got the powers just doesn't know it yet.)

I feel like I just keep circling around on this so I'm going to stop after this. I just think the water deal is way too easy. Granted there was tons of iluding to water being his fear but it does not match up to all the other fears we have learned about. It just all of the sudden comes up as soon as he arrives to Babilar. It's his worst fear and he almost dies from drowning yet it's not bad enough for him to not go floating around above the sea using a water jet pack he barely knows how to use (that's like Megan using a flamethrower as a weapon who would buy that?). It was also a little too convenient that the main protagonist is an epic that controls water and yep guess what the antagonist is afraid of water.

Megan constantly used her powers to create a flamethrower, granted it was illusion but if it was something she wanted to avoid at all costs I think she would have chosen a different fake Epic.

I just don't see how David has confronted that fear either, he's obviously still terrified of losing people.

In terms of the spyrill as most psychologists will tell you exposure therapy is the best way to deal with a fear, it's not pleasant but it's certainly achievable. I used to be near to passing out and throwing up anytime I was in a crowd, now I  can manage it with only mild discomfort.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

Megan constantly used her powers to create a flamethrower, granted it was illusion but if it was something she wanted to avoid at all costs I think she would have chosen a different fake Epic.

I just don't see how David has confronted that fear either, he's obviously still terrified of losing people.

In terms of the spyrill as most psychologists will tell you exposure therapy is the best way to deal with a fear, it's not pleasant but it's certainly achievable. I used to be near to passing out and throwing up anytime I was in a crowd, now I  can manage it with only mild discomfort.

 

Another reason why I don't think the water fear was a red herring is because its development acts as a road map to how Epic fears develop. 

 

First, David realizes he's afraid of water. He doesn't like it, doesn't like the idea of sinking into it, hates the idea of Regalia watching him, but the fear doesn't rule him or anything. 

 

Then, the trauma. Obliteration attempts to drown him, intensifying his fear tenfold. 

 

After that comes the spyril. This I don't think is a parallel to how fears work in the real world; rather, I think it was meant to showcase how Epic powers provide artificial empowerment over their fears. David was exposed to the water, and he used it to make the spyril work, but he never actually had to face his fear of water. With the spyril, he was able to master the water, but his fear remained. 

 

While all this is going on, we see David's fear of water congeal into anger when he stares down Obliteration through his rifle scope. The hatred he feels parallels the hatred Epics feel for those who set off their fears—Sourcefield's anger toward the Reckoners for reminding her of a cult, Steelheart's anger toward David's father for reminding him of whatever fearless person traumatized him. 

 

And then David faces his fear. He makes a choice, freely and knowingly embracing the water to further what he believes is the right course of action. It turns out to be a trap, but in this case, the joke's on Calamity because David escapes his clutches. His choice to stop running, stop using the spyril as a crutch, allows him to master his fear and thwart Regalia's plan. 

[Blackhoof]

Steelhearts fear of not being feared was no where near as traumatic as nearly drowning.

When I was younger someone pushed me out of a boat when I wasn't wearing a life jacket. I wasn't in any real danger of dying but it was one of the most terrifying moments in my entire life. Consequently I now avoid oceans like the plague. I think you're underestimating just how powerful a fear it can be.

 

I think something very bad might have happened in order to cause that trauma. Perhaps a school shooting scenario? A kid he has bullied for years comes to school with a gun and shoots people, maybe threatening or actually shooting Paul himself, and Paul realises that the kid is no longer afraid of him. He is not scared at all. He overcame his fear of his bully in a terrible, horrific way, but he did it, and that terrified Paul.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I think something very bad might have happened in order to cause that trauma. Perhaps a school shooting scenario? A kid he has bullied for years comes to school with a gun and shoots people, maybe threatening or actually shooting Paul himself, and Paul realises that the kid is no longer afraid of him. He is not scared at all. He overcame his fear of his bully in a terrible, horrific way, but he did it, and that terrified Paul.

 

Or the inciting incident could've happened years before, completely separate from school. Maybe Paul had a father or an uncle or a grandfather who abused and terrorized him, responding to Paul's attempts to stand up for himself with "You think I'm afraid of you?" Paul could've taken out his fear on his fellow students, keeping them in fear of him to assuage his own fears. I'm not saying the school shooting incident isn't plausible, because it is; I'm just pointing out another way he could've had that fear instilled in him. 

 

While I'm pointing things out, I might as well say that it is really, really weird to think of a muscular seven-foot giant of a man as Paul. 

[Voidus]

Also come to think of it, doesn't he have nightmares about drowning? Because that pretty much decides it.

[Blaze1616]

Also come to think of it, doesn't he have nightmares about drowning? Because that pretty much decides it.

 

His nightmares would only matter after he becomes an Epic. We have no reason to believe nightmares about drowning, prior to Calamity's attempt, mean anything, because we only know Epics dream of their weaknesses/greatest fears.

 

Also, to serve as devil's advocate, if David's true weakness was losing loved ones, he would have faced his fears twice by the end of Firefight (both times he thought Megan died, once in Steelheart and once in Firefight).

[Voidus]

His nightmares would only matter after he becomes an Epic. We have no reason to believe nightmares about drowning, prior to Calamity's attempt, mean anything, because we only know Epics dream of their weaknesses/greatest fears.

 

Also, to serve as devil's advocate, if David's true weakness was losing loved ones, he would have faced his fears twice by the end of Firefight (both times he thought Megan died, once in Steelheart and once in Firefight).

It's still a pretty clear indication. And actually given that no Epics we know of made the connection it's at least not so sudden an onset as to be a noticeable clue, even Prof didn't put it together that Nightmares were connected to being an Epic, I doubt they just start up the day you get your powers.

That would just be his fear occurring, not confronting it. Steelheart didn't confront his fear just by meeting David's father.

[Blaze1616]

It's still a pretty clear indication. And actually given that no Epics we know of made the connection it's at least not so sudden an onset as to be a noticeable clue, even Prof didn't put it together that Nightmares were connected to being an Epic, I doubt they just start up the day you get your powers.

 

I'm not sure if I agree. None of my nightmares involve my greatest fear. Given the emphasis the novel puts on the fact that an Epic's nightmares are of their weakness, I don't see how they don't "just start up". They don't have to have nightmares every night, but when they do have nightmares, it is of their weakness, their greatest fear. It would be like a recurring nightmare. I've had those. They're terrifying (after two or three times, it's like watching a movie over again: you know what's coming, but you can do nothing to stop it, and that feeling of helplessness just adds to the horror).

 

I actually think David is a bit of an interesting case, because his traumatic experience recently occured. As I understand it, after a traumatic event, the traumatized often have nightmares reliving the trauma. David's traumatic experience of being shackled and thrown into the ocean was still a very recent event at the time of his Epicfication. As such, I don't think him having nightmares about drowning (particularly when he's sleep in an underwater room), is telling of whether water or drowning is his weakness.

 

For the record, I do think water/drowning is/would have been David's weakness. After all, it is David's realization that his nightmares were of the weakness he overcame, which led to his realization that an Epic's weakness is their greatest fear, that which they have nightmares about. If water/drowning were not his greatest fear, that thought process leading him to those realizations would not make much sense.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I'm not sure if I agree. None of my nightmares involve my greatest fear. Given the emphasis the novel puts on the fact that an Epic's nightmares are of their weakness, I don't see how they don't "just start up". They don't have to have nightmares every night, but when they do have nightmares, it is of their weakness, their greatest fear. It would be like a recurring nightmare. I've had those. They're terrifying (after two or three times, it's like watching a movie over again: you know what's coming, but you can do nothing to stop it, and that feeling of helplessness just adds to the horror).

I actually think David is a bit of an interesting case, because his traumatic experience recently occured. As I understand it, after a traumatic event, the traumatized often have nightmares reliving the trauma. David's traumatic experience of being shackled and thrown into the ocean was still a very recent event at the time of his Epicfication. As such, I don't think him having nightmares about drowning (particularly when he's sleep in an underwater room), is telling of whether water or drowning is his weakness.

For the record, I do think water/drowning is/would have been David's weakness. After all, it is David's realization that his nightmares were of the weakness he overcame, which led to his realization that an Epic's weakness is their greatest fear, that which they have nightmares about. If water/drowning were not his greatest fear, that thought process leading him to those realizations would not make much sense.

But I thought Megan was the one who provided the nightmare/weakness connection. When she tells him "I still have nightmares about that day...ask them what their nightmares are about."

[Blaze1616]

But I thought Megan was the one who provided the nightmare/weakness connection. When she tells him "I still have nightmares about that day...ask them what their nightmares are about."

 

That's a good point. I had forgotten that conversation (I need a reread). So then water/drowning might not be David's weakness. On the other hand, that does put points towards Edge's theory of an Epic's weakness/fear being fueled by a traumatic experience.

[StormingTexan]

Megan constantly used her powers to create a flamethrower, granted it was illusion but if it was something she wanted to avoid at all costs I think she would have chosen a different fake Epic.

 

 

She actually did that specifically because fire was her worst fear. It was actually pretty smart and she tells David why would anyone think fire is the weakness to a fire epic. She of course was never in any real harm since it is an alternative world version of herself that does not have a fire weakness. My analogy with the flame thrower pertained to her real form of course. 

[Douglas]

I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned this yet:

David is different from other Epics in that he was selected to be made an Epic for reasons entirely different from every other Epic in the world. Most Epics were selected by Calamity acting on his own, and it seems likely to me that he intentionally sought out people who had especially strong fears. Thus, typical Epic fears are really really traumatic things because if they weren't so strong Calamity wouldn't have picked them and they wouldn't be Epics.

 

David, on the other hand, was selected by Regalia because of who he was and his position in the Reckoners, with no regard whatsoever for what he might fear or how much. Calamity had to work with the fears David had, however severe and traumatic - or not - they were. Thus, David's fear being a relatively minor thing is not surprising and does not strike me as a red herring. He's a normal person with normal person fears, Calamity tried to stretch that into making him an Epic on Regalia's request, and the normality of his fear made it easier for him to face it and refuse.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned this yet:

David is different from other Epics in that he was selected to be made an Epic for reasons entirely different from every other Epic in the world. Most Epics were selected by Calamity acting on his own, and it seems likely to me that he intentionally sought out people who had especially strong fears. Thus, typical Epic fears are really really traumatic things because if they weren't so strong Calamity wouldn't have picked them and they wouldn't be Epics.

 

David, on the other hand, was selected by Regalia because of who he was and his position in the Reckoners, with no regard whatsoever for what he might fear or how much. Calamity had to work with the fears David had, however severe and traumatic - or not - they were. Thus, David's fear being a relatively minor thing is not surprising and does not strike me as a red herring. He's a normal person with normal person fears, Calamity tried to stretch that into making him an Epic on Regalia's request, and the normality of his fear made it easier for him to face it and refuse.

 

I agree that David was a special case, but I'd disagree that it was strictly the normality of his fear that made it easier to refuse. It was because he'd faced it beforehand that he was able to refuse; I'd argue that had another person with "normal" fears been made the same offer without facing their fear, they wouldn't have been able to refuse. 

 

Furthermore, there was trauma involved with David's fear (Obliteration trying to drown him). Is it different from the development of some other Epic fears we've seen so far? Yes, and I'd definitely agree that Calamity had to work with what he had. But I think there was sufficient trauma involved with the water fear for Calamity to grant Regalia's request. It was just caused by an Epic, rather than coming into being independent of Calamity like most other Epic fears we've seen so far.