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The New Ending To Kaladin Szeth Fight

The new Kaladin-Szeth ending   97 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like the new ending to fight between Kaladin and Szeth?

    • Yes
      30
    • No
      30
    • I like both endings equally
      32
    • I want a different ending
      5

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31 posts in this topic

My Q is simple - Do you like the changes made to the Kaladin Szeth fight or not?

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My Q is simple - Do you like the changes made to the Kaladin Szeth fight or not?

Kind of. I mean, it was amazing seeing Kaladin kill Szeth, but I'm fine with him dying some other way. But it's just that Szeth falling into a plateau seems a little pathetic as someone as ninja as him. Although, it does make since....

So I like them equally.

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In isolation, I think the new one is slightly worse than the old one, which seemed perfectly fine to me.  I never got the "Kaladin killed him in anger" vibes from the old fight that other people seem to have gotten, and in my opinion the new fight makes Kaladin seem even more callous.

 

The new fight's also more...what's the word...rough?  Unpolished?  I don't know, it just seems a bit weird.  Kaladin doesn't seem to have a convincing reason to divert his blow to Szeth's wrist.  But even if you suppose he did, why did Szeth lose his stormlight and fall?  Was it because Kaladin cut his arm, somehow severing the bond to his blade, even though when Kaladin's arm was severed earlier he didn't lose his stormlight bond?  Was it because Szeth, after years of refusing to die by his own hand, suddenly just gave up and said, "Well, I guess I'll kill myself now"?  It just doesn't make sense.

 

Plus, unless it was changed, I remember that Nalan said something about the brain needing to be intact in order to resurrect someone.  You know what wouldn't likely leave the brain intact?  Falling hundreds of feet through a highstorm onto the rocks below.  Sure, Nalan could have caught him as he fell, but in that case there wouldn't be a need for a resurrection, either.  It all just doesn't make as much sense anymore.

Edited by galendo
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Posted my thoughts in a different thread, but galendo summed them all up rather nicely.  I feel the tweaks added nothing that was beneficial, actually harmed the scene, and set a dangerous precedent of ex post publish tweaking.  (I'm okay with the edits to Elantris because they don't affect the story that I read, just the spatial-ness of it all.)

 

Still love the book and stories Sanderson has written, and will continue to fully support him by buying each book as soon as it comes out--but I'm now cautious about it, where I never was before.

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Only reason Szeth refused to die all this time was because Truthless are banned from ever committing suicide, and you know how he is with his punishment. His opponent, however, is clearly a Radiant, so he now realizes that he was never Truthless and just wanted the madness to end. He sort of throws the fight in both versions anyway.

I suppose by the brain being intact he could've meant it wasn't completely pulverized into mush or severed from the body. That scene was a strange one.

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my way of thinking about it, the person writing the history of the stormlight archive realised they had one certain aspect of an event wrong. So they fixed it. (just like how Bilbo lied in the first Hobbit edition, and then later told the truth.) In this instance, the Historian got it a little wrong and eventually dug up a more accurate and reliable source.


Anyway, that's how i like to portray it.


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Im as indecisive as a ten year old in a candy store...

 

The way i read it was Szeth committed suicide in the first version, it was just more blatant in the second. 

I think im okay with it maybe have to read the book again just to see.

 

When Nin revives him is there any changes there?? IIRC he used a Fabrial to heal him the last time, was it changed to a Surgebinding?

I didn't know Skybringers could heal...So many questions..

 

(im at work, sorry this is a jumble)  ;)

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Im as indecisive as a ten year old in a candy store...

 

The way i read it was Szeth committed suicide in the first version, it was just more blatant in the second. 

I think im okay with it maybe have to read the book again just to see.

 

When Nin revives him is there any changes there?? IIRC he used a Fabrial to heal him the last time, was it changed to a Surgebinding?

I didn't know Skybringers could heal...So many questions..

 

(im at work, sorry this is a jumble)  ;)

 

Nale says he used Surgebinding, but he still is holding the fabrial-like object as he was in the original scene. This leads me to believe that Nale views fabrials as Surgebinding (as they kinda are), but that the healing was still due to a fabrial (Skybreakers do not have natural access to Regrowth, assuming Nale has an honorblade and it's his).

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I prefer the old ending.

 

As others have said, I didn't get the diea that Kaladin killed Szeth in anger; it's been a while since I read WoR, I'll admit, but after his confrontation with Moash and reuniting with Syl, I actually thought Kaladin was more at peace in that moment than we'd seen him before, and I actually thought it was a pretty big twist that he killed Szeth.

 

True, he came back... but so far as anyone in-world knows, Kaladin killed the Assassin in White. That's a pretty big deal.

 

Granted... it's more-or-less the same here. There isn't any reasonable reason for Dalinar and company to think an un-powered Szeth survived the Highstorm, so his reappearance can still be shocking... but it changes the tone of it a little. There's a maxim in comics, that if you don't see the body the character isn't dead, and Brandon already has a "There was no body" death in Eshonai.

 

Furthermore... I don't like the reasoning that Kaladin spared him. The idea that it was pity; following his notes about how Tolkien changed LotR, that part reads- to me- as being far too much Bilbo/Gollum. Since Szeth is going to be a Skybreaker- or at least Nale's version of one- it's pretty safe to say he'll have a role in how the series ends up. Having him live for the exact same reason Billbo let Gollum live is a bit too heavy-handed for my liking.

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Just a quick question about the new ending. I already own the kindle and hardcover version of WOR. I don't want to pay money just to read the new ending. Any way people who already paid for the book can read the new ending for free?

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Just a quick question about the new ending. I already own the kindle and hardcover version of WOR. I don't want to pay money just to read the new ending. Any way people who already paid for the book can read the new ending for free?

You could check out this post from WeiryWriter.

Edited by hoser
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Just a quick question about the new ending. I already own the kindle and hardcover version of WOR. I don't want to pay money just to read the new ending. Any way people who already paid for the book can read the new ending for free?

 

Ebooks will be updated at some point.

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I suspect that the real import of this new ending may only be seen in the next book. It's not clear from the text whether or not Nalan's fabrial healing was able to restore Szeth's hand; if not, that may be what Brandon meant about healing being different with a living Shardblade. We already saw Kaladin heal his own Blade-severed hand; if neither Szeth nor Nalan can do that, it could be significant. And if that's the case, I'm all for the new ending. With the old ending, Nalan was able to heal a complete severing of the soul from the body, and with the new ending, he only had to heal the body... and that difference is HUGE in terms of how the magic works.
 

(I haven't read all the discussion on the Tweaking forum, so if this has already been hashed out, I apologize.)

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I suspect that the real import of this new ending may only be seen in the next book. It's not clear from the text whether or not Nalan's fabrial healing was able to restore Szeth's hand; if not, that may be what Brandon meant about healing being different with a living Shardblade. We already saw Kaladin heal his own Blade-severed hand; if neither Szeth nor Nalan can do that, it could be significant. And if that's the case, I'm all for the new ending. With the old ending, Nalan was able to heal a complete severing of the soul from the body, and with the new ending, he only had to heal the body... and that difference is HUGE in terms of how the magic works.

 

(I haven't read all the discussion on the Tweaking forum, so if this has already been hashed out, I apologize.)

Maybe I'm just stupid, but what's happening with Lopen seems interesting in this regard.  If he does not have a direct Nahel bond, but can regrow a limb, then one could regrow a shard-severed limb by becoming a squire and lopping it off. 

Obviously much more interesting if Szeth turns out to have an unhealed hand.  OTOH, it seems odd not to mention that the hand is not working.  It seems like something that would have shown up in Szeth's POV. 

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Healing in the cosmere doesn't work that way. There is a Spiritual Ideal Szeth or Kaladin or Lopen in the spiritual realm. Investiture is used to align the physical reality with the spiritual Ideal. The degree of healing even possible also depends on the (I'm guessing here) strength of Innate Investiture in the person. So Kaladin can heal his Shardblade sliced arm while Szeth or even a Squire can't even if they had a source of infinite Stormlight because they don't possess same degree of connection. Even Kaladin can't heal from decapitation unlike Hoid or the Lord Ruler because they possess even greater Innate Investiture. The physical realm is like the real world, the spiritual realm is the Ideal world, and the cognitive realm connects both worlds like a road. To access this road, you need stuff  like Allomancy, Feruchemy, Surgebinding which acts like your vehicle and for fuel, you need Stormlight, metals etc. Hood is near invincible because he possesses the Innate Investiture equivalent of a Porsche 911 and provided he has sufficient Investiture is near impossible to kill.

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I haven't read the new ending yet just what was posted on Brandon's blog. My problem with changing this scene is I don't really understand why...

Kaladin is about protection, not vengeance, and once he realized that Szeth really just wanted to be killed, I wanted Kaladin to hesitate.

The way I read this is Brandon felt like Kalidin acted out of character killing Szeth. First off I think killing Szeth IS an act of protection. Szeth was trying to kill Dalinar and for all Kalidin knew more people. In killing Szeth Kalidin is in fact protecting others I mean he is an assassin and all. Second before becoming a radiant Kalidin was a surgeons apprentice. There are several mentions in the books about how surgeons have to make tough choices. A few times "Cut the leg off" is used literally and metaphorically. So I see ending someone who is so upset with all the evil things they have done under false pretenses and clearly wants to die as an act of mercy not vengeance. It seemed perfectly in character to me both as an act of protection and being true to his upbringing.

In the end this is Brandon's story we are just enjoying reading and discussing it. I defer to his judgement but this seems like a major change to make after the fact. I can accept and appreciate Brandon's motives to make this change but still not like it.

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Maybe I'm just stupid, but what's happening with Lopen seems interesting in this regard.  If he does not have a direct Nahel bond, but can regrow a limb, then one could regrow a shard-severed limb by becoming a squire and lopping it off. 

Obviously much more interesting if Szeth turns out to have an unhealed hand.  OTOH, it seems odd not to mention that the hand is not working.  It seems like something that would have shown up in Szeth's POV. 

Well, I agree that it seems like it should have been in Szeth's POV, but I can just about see Brandon leaving it out because of the way he wants to use/reveal it in the next book. I'm not sure it would be possible to lop off the soul-severed appendage and regrow a new one (whether squire or Radiant)... Is it possible that the hand (in this case) has been severed in all three realms, so that it's not possible to see oneself as whole again? I don't know - but I don't think it would be that easy.

 

We'll have to wait and see when Book Three is written, I guess! It's just one of the things that made sense to me. I can't quite see Brandon changing the text solely because Kaladin should have hesitated to kill Szeth; I expect there to be more to it, but that he doesn't want to reveal all his reasons just now.  Personal opinion. FWIW, I wrote a bit more about what I was thinking over on the Tweaking forum, but it probably doesn't really say anything vital to the notion.

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Ok just read the new scene thanks for posting that earlier! As far as Szeth's hand goes the fact it is NOT mentioned in Szeth's POV leads me to believe it was also "restored" by Nale when he brought him back to life. I guess we will just have to wait until book 3 for confirmation.

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I didn't vote because my vote choice would be something like, "I'm really skeptical about the change, but let's see what Brandon does with it."

 

I'm skeptical for two reasons.  First, I'm confused about the reasoning behind the change.  From Brandon's remarks, he seems to think it's a minor detail that will make hardly any difference--maybe even no difference--in subsequent books.  But then he also says that it's important to make the change to be more in keeping with Kaladin's character.  Well, which is it?  Important character issue or minor editing detail?  (The answer is that it's both, I suppose)

 

On top of that, I don't think Kaladin was actually acting contrary to his character--or his Oaths--in the original version.  His goal is to protect Dalinar, and it has been proven that Dalinar "cannot protect himself" from Szeth, so Kaladin's Oath not only justifies his pursuit of Szeth, it obliges him to act.  After the armies disappeared from the round plateau, Szeth said straight out that he knew where they went and took off.  Kaladin realizes that the danger to Dalinar hasn't passed, so he has to give chase.

 

After their brief conversation, Szeth comes to the realization that he's not Truthless and that he wants to let himself die.  He could have dismissed (or thrown away) the Blade, or slowed his flight, or just said, "Hang on a second.  I'm not going to kill anyone but myself."  He didn't do any of those things.  He kept flying toward Dalinar, and kept his Blade (seemingly) at the ready to confront Kaladin.  By all available evidence, Szeth is continuing in his course of action, so Kaladin has to continue to in his, and so he attacks.  Szeth declined to parry Kaladin's blow, but for all Kaladin knew, that may have been a gambit while Szeth prepared a counterattack.

 

Sure, it's pretty obvious after the fact that Kaladin killed a man who wasn't a danger to anyone, but he couldn't have known that at the time.  Anyone who say that Szeth "could not protect himself" is ignoring the Blade that he was still holding.  Maybe Kaladin would regret what happened, but then again, Kaladin regrets not saving every single soldier he's ever met.  Besides, it could lead Kaladin to reflect on the meaning of his Oaths, which would probably be an enlightening exercise for him and for us readers.

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Welcome! Reading this well thought and well written (IMO) post reminds me of why I am hopeful about the change. 

I didn't vote because my vote choice would be something like, "I'm really skeptical about the change, but let's see what Brandon does with it."

 

...

To me the change signals that Kaladin really "got" the third oath changes.  He is more likely only to kill to protect.  He won't be dealing with the same issues in the next book.  Much as I love the character, he grinds through his changes and I want him to at least be dealing with new issues.  This next book will cover new ground and progress, unlike some books in a brilliant long series that seemed like it would never finish until a certain awesome author took over. 

There may not be any obvious change in the next book, but I think this ending at least shows that Kaladin has decisively crossed a Rubicon and will be moving on.

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I read the other thread about this same topic where a few people mentioned how Syl is portrayed in this scene. The more I think about it the more I feel like it is actually Syl's character that is addressed more with the new scene. I should say her change of character. In the original scene it felt like to me that something really changed in Syl after Kalidin said the third oath. Obviously Kalidin's ability to use her as a shardblade but also her demeanor as well. She congratulated him after killing Szeth and recovering the blade. It seemed against her character up to this point. Then with the new scene she tells Kalidin to get Szeth's blade BEFORE he dies telling Kalidin he is no longer a threat. There was some discussion on the other thread if it was out of character for Kalidin to not try and save Szeth. Especially since at that point Kalidin knew from Syl he was no longer a threat. Effectively it was Syl's command that Kalidin followed that prevented Kalidin from attempting to save Szeth. I felt like in the original scene there was some foreshadowing of Syl's character development but it is emphasized more with the new scene. 

 

Edit: I hate to say it because it has been discussed so much in the other thread but I do feel like Kalidin not trying to save (protect if you will) Szeth is more out of character. In the original scene Kalidin kills Szeth in the heat of battle not unlike any of the other deaths he delt in battle. I do not think anyone (well excluding Brandon) thought this was against his oath of protection when it was originally read. Now he basically lets Szeth die because Syl tells him the blade is more important. Wouldn't saving Szeth who Kalidin knows is no longer a threat be more inline with the 3rd oath to protect even those you hate? I know some say Kalidin couldnt have saved him and get the blade as well which may be true but he didn't even try. /rant

Edited by StormingTexan
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I really don't care.  I can see how this one lines up with where Brandon want Kaladin to go.  Also, it may be due to his fleshing out the regrowth surge.  Either way, I'm cool with it.  I got the same overall message from each one.

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So I have read the changes. I am ambivalent either way.  I understand about wanting to make Kaladin a protector other than a killer. 

 

But if that is the goal, the part of the story most incongruous with Kaladin the Protector is not the fight.  It is before the fight.

 

 

 

“You sent him to the sky to die, assassin," Kaladin said, Stormlight puffing from his lips, "but the sky and the winds are mine. I claim them, as I now claim your life.”

 

That line is the part of the story that feels most anti-Kaladin.  That is a statement of vengeance rather than protection.  And it appears to be unchanged in the revisions.

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Good point Walker Texas Ranger that does seem a little off doesn't it! An upvote to you for this point ( and for your name )!!!

p.s. When your in Texas look behind you, cause thats where the Rangers gonna bee!!

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I'm not to keen on changes afterward esp if I buy books in Hardcover. I didn't think it was out of character but I'm not the author. I just hope that it's the only change we will get cause I would really hate to lose my want of rushing out the door for HC on release days for this series.

Ed: where is the poll anyway I'm not seeing on Mobile. Are they full version only?

Edited by Briar King
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