Brandon Tweaking Words Of Radiance

[Sirce Luckwielder]

This is exactly how I feel. Very well worded.

Thanks. One thing we need to reslize is that there is always another secret. Even with only 50 pages left in a Cosmere novel we can still be suprised by him.

I don't have the impression that Kaladin declined to kill Szeth in climax 2.0 because of a perception of innocence.  Assuming no other textual tweeks happen then Kaladin still believes that Szeth never had to kill and he still accuses Szeth of cowardice.

This is a quote from Words of Radiance page 1041 after Kaladin proves that he is a Knight Radiant.

"It is actually true," Szeth whispered.

"Yes."

Szeth nodded, and the edge of tension seemed to fade from him, replaced by an emptiness in his eyes. "Then I was right all along. I was never Truthless. I could have stopped the murders at any time."

"I don't know what that means," Kaladin said. "But you never had to kill."

"My orders—"

"Excuses! If that was why you murdered, then you're not the evil man I assumed. You're a coward instead."

Szeth looked him in the eyes, then nodded. He pushed Kaladin back, then moved to swing.

Kaladin drove his hamds forward, forming Syl into a sword. He expected a parry. The move was intended to draw Szeth out of his attack pattern.

Szeth did not parry. He just closed his eyes.

Kaladin had time to see that Szeth wasn't doing this out of malice. He has a sliver of innocence. Kaladin is also smart enough that he would have wanted to know who Szeth was working for. If Szeth didn't want to kill, then Kaladin can infere that someone else was pulling the strings. In the new climax, he makes sure that Szeth is disarmed, slicing him in the wrist. This is partial penitence for what he has done, but leaves him alive for questioning. He doesn't realize that Szeth wants to die, that he would rather commit suicide than live with what he now knows. I think this perfectly explains the point that I am trying to make.

[Arondell]

I guess I'm just taking Mr. Sanderson's words at face value.  I don't think in this new version Kaladin restrains himself out of a perceived sense of innocence on the part of Szeth.(Szeth isn't innocent.  Taking an oath that you are fully aware might require you to unquestioningly kill people for no other reason then you were told to precludes innocence in my opinion.)  I felt he restrained himself because he probably realized from Szeth's words and actions that Szeth would no longer be a threat.  Being a Windrunner is about protection not vengeance or even justice.  Szeth is apparently no longer a threat so killing him is no longer necessary.

[Flywinged]

In Sanderson's own words:

There was something I wanted to do, and took a stab at it in the text, then backed off because I couldn’t make it work. It was important to me that Kaladin refuse to kill Szeth at the end. Kaladin is about protection, not vengeance, and once he realized that Szeth really just wanted to be killed, I wanted Kaladin to hesitate.

 

So I mean, in both endings, Kaladin essentially is killing Szeth, just this time he is doing it not out of vengeance.

 

link to where I got this http://brandonsanderson.com/three-stories-in-new-formats/

Edited March 9, 2015 by Flywinged

[vandar]

In Sanderson's own words:

 

 

There was something I wanted to do, and took a stab at it in the text, then backed off because I couldn’t make it work. It was important to me that Kaladin refuse to kill Szeth at the end. Kaladin is about protection, not vengeance, and once he realized that Szeth really just wanted to be killed, I wanted Kaladin to hesitate.

 

So I mean, in both endings, Kaladin essentially is killing Szeth, just this time he is doing it not out of vengeance.

 

link to where I got this http://brandonsanderson.com/three-stories-in-new-formats/

 

 

And I absolutely agree with it. It's alright that kaladin hesitate to kill Szeth. I don't like the way it has been done. It would be better if Kaladin sees Szeth's death before going for te honorblade. And it would be great in my opinion if kaladin try to stop the blow but something happens and so Szeth ends stabbed by him anyway. It would give kaladin something to regret in later books and would not change very much the facts at all , only the intention of the characters, and so there would be less problems.

[king of nowhere]

well, kaladin didn't really ddo it out of vengeance before either. szeth attacked him, kaladin counterattacked, szeth didn't parry. it was a fairly clear case of suicide by cop, but kaladin had to defend himself. cutting szeth's hand is actually a good alternate solution, that also gives the chance of interrogating him.

[kaellok]

Not a fan of the original climax scene in its entirety (reading it, it was the most forced scene that I can recall reading since the end of Memory of Light--that is, a scene that occurred because the author decided it needed to, and then forced events to make it happen, disregarding what would have made actual sense within the story itself). I'm less of a fan of the scene after the edits because absolutely nothing that I found problematic was altered/fixed/changed/edited/revised to make it flow better. Problems with the original add nothing to this conversation, so I'll focus comments on the changes

/rant on

I disagree with everyone who feels that the changes are "more in character" for any of the characters. Szeth commits actual-suicide, which is against his little crazy Oathstone thing he's got going on. I mean, that's one of the only three rules that still govern him. It completely invalidates everything he's done prior as anything other than the purest of evil. If he was going to break one of those rules that meant more to him than life, honor, or being a human being that is worth leaving alive, he could have helped ensure the peaceful transfer of the Honorblade. You know, by like, flying to the ground and stabbing himself with it. That would have been better.

Syl flat out telling Kaladin what to do, rather than what not to do is off, and wrong, and doesn't feel right. She has been the voice of his conscience. This sets up something interesting with Kaladin, too.

Either Kaladin killing Szeth is fine, and was fine originally, or letting Szeth fall to his death is fine. And we know this because Syl told us that the Honorblade was more important than a human's life. And Kaladin listened. Maybe it is--but Kaladin shouldn't think so. With the changes, he's accepted that he doesn't need to kill Szeth, and tries not to; fine, whatever. I think that's dumb, but that's still a decision that Kaladin makes, and then seems to immediately regret as he waves goodbye to the human cannonball falling to the ground.

The characterization of all are weaker for the edits, because they are conflicting with the primary driving motivations that led them to the point that they are at, as well as key decisions that are happening within the moment itself. I did not like the original climax, but this one is objectively worse. (When you prove to me that how Kaladin the Protector of Life deciding to not kill a mass murderer can change his mind seconds later for a weapon, for a Shard, then I'll change that objectively to subjectively. He's given up Shards twice before, and now lets a man die to go chasing after one. No.)

I still like the book, and plan to buy Book 3 within the first week of its release. These types of edits are an incredibly dangerous, and slippery, road to travel down, however--even when they objectively make the story better. If it happens again, I'll wait until the story is complete and read them at that time. I don't fully buy into the "It's Brandon's story" argument; sure, he's telling it. But I paid to hear it. If you pay to see a musical or go to the theater, you may go on an off-night where there are some hitches and struggles; but you expect the story to be intact and correct. Going on two different nights, you may notice that the actors don't flub their lines as much, but you'll be surprised if suddenly the The Music Man ends without there being a band after all.

/rant off

[Moogle]

I disagree with everyone who feels that the changes are "more in character" for any of the characters.  Szeth commits actual-suicide, which is against his little crazy Oathstone thing he's got going on.

 

While I agree in broad strokes with a lot of your post, I'm not entirely sure this argument makes sense. The point of the scene is that Szeth realizes he isn't Truthless, so he doesn't need to listen to the owner of his oathstone, which means suicide is a-okay. He's free to do whatever he wants.

 

I mean sure, if he was going to do this, flying to the ground would be a better idea, but he's sort of just realized there was no need for him to have murdered anyone and torturing himself over it for years was unnecessary. He has some mental issues. I'm willing to cut him some slack here if he's maybe not thinking clearly.

 

(Again though: I agree it's one of those scenes where the 'tracks' show clearly, in that this was something Brandon's outline called for, rather than being an organic character choice.)

Edited March 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

While I agree in broad strokes with a lot of your post, I'm not entirely sure this argument makes sense. The point of the scene is that Szeth realizes he isn't Truthless, so he doesn't need to listen to the owner of his oathstone, which means suicide is a-okay. He's free to do whatever he wants.

 

As I posted earlier in the thread, it's clear to me that even in the original version, Szeth commits suicide by Kaladin by choosing not to parry, after realizing that, as Moogle said, this Oathstone is no longer binding. 

[AerionBFII]

Yeah i always thought he basically committed suicide, it's going to take some getting used to after already reading the conclusion of an epic battle though.

[Aleksiel]

I don't mind the changes. I'm actually more curious why the dress of Shallan's mother needed to be changed than anything else.

 

I'm fine with Kaladin's choice - it makes more sense for him to hesitate to kill Szeth, but that's my interpretation of his character. Choosing not to catch Szeth is also fine with me. Kal, thankfully, hasn't sworn to protect those who don't want to be protected. Kaladin needs to begin to acknowledge people are free to make their own choices and he can't always protect them; that's actually what I hope his story arch to be about later on. He was entirely too protective of his men to the point he wish they hadn't agreed to stay with Dalinar as bodyguards.

 

Szeth committed suicide both times, although I think choosing to let go of the Blade he used to kill so many people has more significance to it than the previous refusal to parry Kaladin's attack. In a way I see it as Szeth letting go of one source of pain. He realized he was free and not Truthless, so he cut the last tie to his prison. 

 

Syl has dissuaded Kal on previous occasions - when he wanted to throw himself in the Honor chasm, when he wanted to kill Amaram. This wasn't a moment for a softer approach, the Blade was about to be lost in the colliding storms, so she was a bit more forceful and straight-forwarded. Syl has been thinking without remembering much about the Blade ever since Kal and Szeth's first fight. Now she probably remembers more or she learned something in Shadesmar. Not losing the Honorblade was definitely very important, she and Kaladin had to make sure it's secured and no one can get his hands on it. However, there's still the issue Szeth was certain the Stone Shamans can recover it, so it's bound to get interesting.

[Blaze1616]

I don't mind the changes. I'm actually more curious why the dress of Shallan's mother needed to be changed than anything else.

 

Jokes on us. Brandon altered the final confrontation simply because he knew we'd pay more attention to that than the dress. Turns out the dress is the most Realmatically important object in the Cosmere.

[Aleksiel]

Jokes on us. Brandon altered the final confrontation simply because he knew we'd pay more attention to that than the dress. Turns out the dress is the most Realmatically important object in the Cosmere.

 

And may be it was neither white, nor with gold, but it was actually black and blue...

[natc]

Beginning to wonder if this was intended.

Oh storms, the Desolation is coming to Earth.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Beginning to wonder if this was intended.

Oh storms, the Desolation is coming to Earth.

 

Or maybe it isn't Brandon at all making these changes, perhaps Ruin is doing it all...

[Eilemelie]

And may be it was neither white, nor with gold, but it was actually black and blue...

And just when I thought I'd never have to hear about that again... *sigh*

[AerionBFII]

Sly Green Hoodie Mistborn!! +1

 

Defo just bookmarked this page!

 

So it was a Surgebinding instead of a Fabrial now? Missed that before :/

 

Shallans mother had a new addition to her wardrobe aswell.

 

If there was any groundbreaking cosmere revelation ill hang back and let the eagle eyed Sharders discover it... then bathe in the results....

 

 

And just when I thought I'd never have to hear about that again... *sigh* 

Hahaha +1

Edited March 10, 2015 by WEZ313

[Zea mays]

On a semi related note... does anyone know if the audiobook version going to be altered?

 

It seems a bit excessive to drag Michael Kramer and Kate Reading into the studio just to say a couple of lines each (and then have the editing elf splice them into the right place in the narrative). On the other hand, the different formats of the book should be consistent, no?

Edited March 10, 2015 by Zea mays

[Blaze1616]

On a semi related note... does anyone know if the audiobook version going to be altered?

 

It seems a bit excessive to drag Michael Kramer and Kate Reasing into the studio just to say a couple of lines each (and then have the editing elf splice them into the right place in the narrative). On the other hand, the different formats of the book should be consistent, no?

 

What will probably happen is when Michael and Kate (hopefully) return for SA3, they'll throw in the lines from SA2 and make an update then. That's assuming they're worried about updating the audiobook at all.

[Lightning]

So, I personally strongly dislike the new ending.  Here are some reasons:

 

• It doesn't really make sense.  In the original ending Kaladin was surprised that Szeth didn't block; and so it makes sense for him to continue the stroke.  In the fury of the battle it is just unrealistic for a fighter to change their strike because they perceive a sudden change in the person they are fighting.  In the changed version, Kaladin still does not know that Szeth had severed his bond with the sword, and thus it is just stupid to not deal with a serious threat.  It isn't pity to leave a rabid dog alive, who is currently a major threat to others, and has just tried to kill one of the most honorable people you know, and has killed loads of other people; it is stupidity.
• Retconning is a bad habit.  Yes, the cosmere is Brandon's world.  But it is also our world.  By giving us these books, we become a part of that world, and those parts that we have shared are no longer merely Brandon's.  By changing the world he is disenfranchising us from our shared experience.  He is, in essence, saying "We did not share that scene together."  I seriously hope this does not happen again.  (I'm not talking about changing mistakes or typos.  I'm talking about changing fundamental actions.)
• Brandon's reasons for the change are, frankly, lame.  He could have easily, in future books, emphasized that dead shardblades, or even honorblades, cannot heal souls, while living ones can.  He says that Szeth is now killed by the storm, not Kaladin, but (as many have already pointed out) this is false.  Kaladin lets him fall to his death--which is much more dishonorable than dealing with a threat.  Perhaps, in hindsight, it is the right logical move, because the honorblade is very important.  But then this goes against Brandon's purpose in having Kaladin be all about protecting.  This ending just does not convey what Brandon was trying to get across--it does the opposite.  In the original ending, it made sense to me that someone who is about protecting still must kill.  That is an important principle.

All this said, I'm not severing my ties to Brandon's books.  They are wonderful.  One (or even many) mistakes on his part does not make me any less of a fan.  Just as long as he doesn't go the way of Paolini, who got too caught up in his own story-telling that he didn't realize the last 300 pages of his last book should have been cut.  (Ten pages just about someone's fingernails?  REALLY??)  But I don't think Brandon is even close to that point.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Lightning

[Flywinged]

So, I personally strongly dislike the new ending.  Here are some reasons:

 

• It doesn't really make sense.  In the original ending Kaladin was surprised that Szeth didn't block; and so it makes sense for him to continue the stroke.  In the fury of the battle it is just unrealistic for a fighter to change their strike because they perceive a sudden change in the person they are fighting.  In the changed version, Kaladin still does not know that Szeth had severed his bond with the sword, and thus it is just stupid to not deal with a serious threat.  It isn't pity to leave a rabid dog alive, who is currently a major threat to others, and has just tried to kill one of the most honorable people you know, and has killed loads of other people; it is stupidity.
• Retconning is a bad habit.  Yes, the cosmere is Brandon's world.  But it is also our world.  By giving us these books, we become a part of that world, and those parts that we have shared are no longer merely Brandon's.  By changing the world he is disenfranchising us from our shared experience.  He is, in essence, saying "We did not share that scene together."  I seriously hope this does not happen again.  (I'm not talking about changing mistakes or typos.  I'm talking about changing fundamental actions.)
• Brandon's reasons for the change are, frankly, lame.  He could have easily, in future books, emphasized that dead shardblades, or even honorblades, cannot heal souls, while living ones can.  He says that Szeth is now killed by the storm, not Kaladin, but (as many have already pointed out) this is false.  Kaladin lets him fall to his death--which is much more dishonorable than dealing with a threat.  Perhaps, in hindsight, it is the right logical move, because the honorblade is very important.  But then this goes against Brandon's purpose in having Kaladin be all about protecting.  This ending just does not convey what Brandon was trying to get across--it does the opposite.  In the original ending, it made sense to me that someone who is about protecting still must kill.  That is an important principle.

 

First, +1 to you for bringing up good points.

 

To your first point, I don't think either of the versions specifically mention him being surprised. Obviously he was in both cases, because who would just allow themselves to be stabbed. Also text from the altered version,

 

• Get that sword! Syl sent to Kaladin, a mental shout. Grab it.
• “The assassin!”
• He has released the bond. He’s nothing without that sword!

Syl tells him that he released the bond. So Kaladin knows he is no longer a threat, to him at least. So again, Kaladin realizes Szeth is now nothing, and he has made his choice to die. It's a moral debate at this point whether or not he should've saved him. I think it fits Kaladin chose not to. Actually, in a way, letting him die is a way of saving Szeth from himself.

 

To your second point, I agree. But at this point, It's happened once (Twice if you count him changing Elatris in order to actually make sense. But to me that is more of just keeping the story but fixing the map to look what he had already envisioned. And one change in 20 books sounds great to me. In addition, Sanderson has had these characters in his head for years. Twenty-something years if I'm not mistaken. If he says the previous scene was not how it should of happened, we really have no room to argue with him. I'm just glad he changed it now instead of letting it haunt him for the rest of the series. Also, now I feel like I have a second story. One that no one else who gets the book from now on will be able to enjoy. Now as I read later books I'll be able to understand why he made these changes, which people have not read this version wont understand.

 

As for the last point, he said he was sad he was losing that point. By changing it he said he was taking away that point, which means now he is going to have to emphasize this point. But good thing for us, now we'll be looking out for that  . Also, physically, Szeth is killed by the storm, mentally he is killed by himself, and the reason this was allowed to happen was Kaladin who acted because of Syl.. So there are many people and things who are contributing to Szeth's "death".

 

 

I need to stop posting in this thread because of I have strong opinions on this (I'm in no way telling anyone thinking differently you are wrong, these are just my interpretations and thoughts), but as a final point, how would you view this change if it had happened the other way around? If originally Kaladin had chose against killing Szeth and stabbing is hand and then it was changed to him killing him out of vengeance?

Edited March 10, 2015 by Flywinged

[Aleksiel]

I don't think Kaladin should have, let alone had any moral obligation, to invalidate the first choice Szeth made on his own free will in seven or so years. Szeth didn't accidentally ran out of stormlight, he purposely released his bond midair knowing full well he would fall to his death. I think it would have been selfish for Kaladin to save Szeth using 'protecting' as an excuse while taking away Szeth's free will. The protective part of Kaladin's character fits the catching of the Honorblade that anyone could use to become the next mass murderer.

 

Kaladin wasn't sure he'd survive the clashing storms below, so Lashing Szeth down wouldn't have worked. What, was Kal supposed to awkwardly hold him tight while Szeth was trying to jump to his death? 

[WeiryWriter]

So Brandon talked a little about it at the Chicago signing a few weeks back (and I had a few free minutes today so I was able to transcribe this section):
 

[01:11:41]

Questioner: My question was, have you ever written a scene and had it published and then wanted to change one of your scenes?

Brandon: Yes, I have.  There have been a couple of them.  There's one at the end of Words of Radiance, when it came time for the paperback I reverted to a previous version of the scene.  So yeah you guys will see that when the paperback comes out.  One of the ending scenes-- It's a very minor tweak but I had done like four different drafts of this scene and I didn’t like the one we ended up with.  Even immediately after we sent it in I was like "No that's the wrong one".  So we reverted.

Questioner: Will you post that online?

Brandon: Yeah, I'll post that online when the book comes out.  I’ll be like "By the way guys. Warning.  There's a change here."

Female Bystander: The internet will freak out.

Brandon: Yeah.  The other thing is the ending of Elantris, the spatial-ness of it, and things, I got some of the math wrong.  I didn't have Peter back then.  And so now that we are doing a 10th anniversary edition I actually had Peter and Isaac, who does all the maps, get together, work out the actual math.  The size of the city, the size of the continent, and all this stuff and Isaac's doing a new map and we are changing the text to now match that map.  So for instance where it says something is in the original text it will actually move now that we have an actual real map, rather than my MS Paint thing that I was using 'cause you know me and maps.  So yeah you nodded, there are a lot of mathematical-- just problems.  We've got the new map now and it all works.  So I'm glad that it all actually works, once you get the math right.  But like the number of steps is way off at the end of that one for instance.  [To Argent/Kurkistan] Have you guys figured that out?  Like it makes the size of the planet stupidly big.

 

(source)

 

Also for those thanking me for the list of edits, that thanks should really go to Botanica, it's only thanks to her I knew what they were.

[Edgedancer]

To your first point, I don't think either of the versions specifically mention him being surprised. Obviously he was in both cases, because who would just allow themselves to be stabbed. Also text from the altered version,

Syl tells him that he released the bond. So Kaladin knows he is no longer a threat, to him at least. So again, Kaladin realizes Szeth is now nothing, and he has made his choice to die. It's a moral debate at this point whether or not he should've saved him. I think it fits Kaladin chose not to. Actually, in a way, letting him die is a way of saving Szeth from himself.

 

 

I need to stop posting in this thread because of I have strong opinions on this (I'm in no way telling anyone thinking differently you are wrong, these are just my interpretations and thoughts), but as a final point, how would you view this change if it had happened the other way around? If originally Kaladin had chose against killing Szeth and stabbing is hand and then it was changed to him killing him out of vengeance?

Syl tell him that after Kaladin stabbed his wrist, so that doesn't really matter for that decision, though. That only comes later

Whether or not Kaladin should approve of suicide in any form really is a debate that doesn't have a right answer, as you say. Given that a major point of Kaladin's arc was about fighting against his own suicidal tendencies and installing the will to live into both himself and the bridgemen, I myself disagree, but that is just my opinion, so I'm not saying you're wrong there.

As for giving Szeth his free will here, well while I agree that Kaladin needs to learn that leason he hasn't learned it yet and still very much forces his protection on others, so while someone can make a point for it being the "right" choice, (which withit including suicide is a topic that's highly controversial) it doesn't feel like Kaladin at this point to me.

 

That would be an even worse change in my opinion. Thing is, he never acted out of vengance. Originally he acted out of necessity and even then he didn't expect to land the killing strike there.

[Argent]

Honestly, I'd probably feel the same way if the scenes were the other way around. At the end of the day, Brandon knows where the story - and its characters - are going, and I don't.

 

If he feels that Kaladin should not kill Szeth because it would make for a stronger and more consistent Kaladin in the future, I trust him. He is the one who knows where Kaladin needs to end up 20 years down the road. If he had felt that Szeth should die by Kaladin's hand, I would've said the same thing probably - maybe there is a reason for it, maybe Kaladin needs to learn to kill again, maybe the Ideals are a little more flexible than we thought, things like that. 

 

Bottom line, I am willing to sacrifice a retcon in a book or two if it makes the entire story better. And I can't tell whether this change will accomplish this - I've only got Brandon's word that it will, and so that's what I go for.

[kari-no-sugata]

I don't mind the changes. I'm actually more curious why the dress of Shallan's mother needed to be changed than anything else.

Probably so that these two chapters match up (quotes taken from original release):

Chapter 10: Father carried Shallan over the body of a woman in white.

Chapter 88: Shallan walked to the other corpse, the one facedown in the beautiful dress of blue and gold.