Brandon Tweaking Words Of Radiance

[Moogle]

Thinking more on this, I'm going to agree with this making Kaladin seem like a worse person. Or at least, not a better one.

 

He stayed his hand, not killing Szeth, but then let him die in order to get the Honorblade. That's not protecting. That's not showing mercy. It's almost greedy. It's a complete lack of valuing Szeth's life - which might be appropriate, but in that case why stay his hand? And even if he did it by instinct because Syl said to, that doesn't reflect well on Syl.

 

Szeth had just told Kaladin he was clearly not Truthless, and didn't have to kill anymore. He wasn't (much of) a threat without the Honorblade. If this change was intended to make Kaladin seem like a better person, he should have Lashed Szeth to save him before going for the Honorblade. Showing mercy to your enemies is definitely a paladin thing to do.

 

I prefer the new version, though.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Moogle

[Flywinged]

Thinking more on this, I'm going to agree with this making Kaladin seem like a worse person. Or at least, not a better one.

 

He stayed his hand, not killing Szeth, but then let him die in order to get the Honorblade. That's not protecting. That's not showing mercy. It's almost greedy. It's a complete lack of valuing Szeth's life - which might be appropriate, but in that case why stay his hand?

 

Szeth had just told Kaladin he was clearly not Truthless, and didn't have to kill anymore. He wasn't a threat without the Honorblade. If this change was intended to make Kaladin seem like a better person, he should have Lashed Szeth to save him before going for the Honorblade. Showing mercy to your enemies is definitely a paladin thing to do.

 

I prefer the new version, though. Fits Kaladin being kind of a hateful jerk, even if he's working to get past it.

 

If I've ever said previously I thought Kaladin became a better person, then I was mistaken. I meant more along the lines of I like the characterization of each character this change makes more.

Was Kaladin the one to make the choice to let Szeth fall, or was Syl though? It is my interpretation that it was Syl, but I have not seen anyone else make that point in this thread.

[Moogle]

If I've ever said previously I thought Kaladin became a better person, then I was mistaken. I meant more along the lines of I like the characterization of each character this change makes more.

Was Kaladin the one to make the choice to let Szeth fall, or was Syl though? It is my interpretation that it was Syl, but I have not seen anyone else make that point in this thread.

 

I edited my post to make a note about that. I think Syl can be at least partially blamed here. Certainly her order to grab the Blade is rather uncaring of Szeth. The Honorblade is important, though, so she may have just been panicking and not wanting to lose it to the storm, which is understandable.

 

On the whole, I think I'd prefer the alternate universe where Kaladin saved Szeth. Would fit more with Kaladin's new oath.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Moogle

[Flywinged]

On the whole, I think I'd prefer the alternate universe where Kaladin saved Szeth. Would fit more with Kaladin's new oath.

 

I think I agree that Kaladin would be a better person if he had done this. However, I think Kaladin is more interesting of a character considering this is the way things panned out. I remember hearing a quote somewhere where Brandon said he only writes about interesting characters. And considering this change has sparked such a debate, I'd say it most definitely passes as interesting. At least interesting enough for us to discuss it.

[WitSpren]

 

We're still missing something here.

 

In the fight between Szeth and Kaladin Kaladin gives Szeth the following injuries:

-stabbed in the shoulder with Syl, not enough to disable the arm, "The strike to the shoulder hadn't fully severed the soul leading to the arm". The text says "Indeed, he didn't try to heal his shoulder-which would have required a lot of light-" As we are from Kaladin's perspective it's possible that Kaladin thought Szeth could heal it and is wrong. Szeth isn't mentioned as healing it once they enter the storm and have effectively unlimited stormlight, but Kaladin also makes no mention of it not being healed. As he thought Szeth would be able to heal it (whether he actually can or not) you would expect that he might mention it if he noticed that Szeth didn't in fact, heal it. I'm not sure how obvious the injury was though.

 

-"Kaladin spun around and slashed his spear-which became a sword-through Szeth's foot." I am guessing that cut just killed the foot not the whole leg but I don't think we know for certain.

 

-"Kaladin swung down and a hammer appeared in his hand, crashing into Szeth's shoulder, breaking bones" This one has always confused me a bit, I'm guessing it doesn't cut through Szeth because people don't expect a hammer to cut?

 

-"As stormlight tried to heal the assassin, Kaladin pulled in close and slammed his hand against Szeth's stomach, a knife appearing there and digging deeply into the skin. He sought the spine."

 

On the next page: "Szeth slowed, his wounds healing."

 

So he definitely healed wounds made by a shardblade (or Kaladin was mistaken somehow I guess?). The blow to the shoulder from the hammer appears to have just broken bones so that's well enough to heal. But the other injuries were definitely cuts with Syl. So what are we supposed to think here? Can stormlight used through honorblades heal flesh wounds caused by a shardblade but not limbs that have been cut through? That seems a little inconsistent to me but also seems to fit with what he said. Except that the part that was changed doesn't really relate to that. This healing is still in the new edition. The only difference is whether Szeth was stabbed through the wrist or through the spine.

 

Considering this from another angle; to my knowledge an honorblade really isn't a "dead" shardblade, so why does Brandon's comment even relate to the current situation? Was it just poor choice of wording? Did he mean to include honorblades in that statement? Or is there something we don't know about how the honorblades were made? But we know that it isn't a dead spren, unless it's somehow dead enough that living spren can't detect/feel that it was once a living spren. This sounds like a stretch to me.

 

Is it saying that with enough stormlight a knight radiant could heal from having their spine hit with a shardblade? That seems the most literal interpretation of Brandon's words, but sounds like it wouldn't work too well narratively.

 

Yeah, I'm confused. 

 

 

I agree, there was more references that the one mentioned.    If you change one, you need to change them all.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure I can articulate this effectively, but I'll try.  For me, it's about Syl's role seeming to change for plot reasons. 

What is the value of the Honorblade?  So far it is less than an honorspren.  In fact, it has essentially been serving Odium.  Out of the hands of a Herald, it may be just bad. 

Would the blade have been lost?  Szeth believed the Shamans could retrieve it.  I think a significant amount of investiture like that would be detectable.   Even if Kaladin can't currently detect it, I imagine that the Stormfather's Shard-o-vision or a Herald could find it. 

A Szeth that is no longer a threat may need protection.  Failing that, he could be an amazing source of information.  There are significant reasons to grab Szeth.  It is bad enough that Kaladin never asks Szeth any useful questions in their conversations.  Forever giving up the possibility of gaining information is a significant cost to letting Szeth fall. 

Syl has been a source of information and essentially Kaladin's conscience, but she has not been directing him in the heat of the moment.  She has been a supportive presence, but not directive as I recall.  The correct decision is not clear.  Now, all of a sudden, she is deciding what needs to be done instantaneously and directing him as to how to choose.  It is a different role that seems to be determined by the plot's need to keep the protagonists from communicating more than retrieving some hardware that can (IMO) be retrieved at any time. 

 

 

I agree that he should value and attempt to protect the defenseless Szeth, as a very valuable source of information - and probably as a human. 

 

But I do not agree that Kal could know or would assume that he could find the blade later.    If the choice was one or the other, then save the Honor blade to keep it away from Bad Guys & give the Good Guys another powerful weapon.

 

I do not see Kal's oaths to have proceeded to the point of "Protect people from themselves.  (Suicide)"

 

I have a greater problem with Szeth doing suicide when he said that he could not, even though he wanted to.

 

 

 

I think that it would have been better to have Kal grab the blade and then grab Szeth, but in grabbing Szeth he had to enter the storm (again), where (unpowered) Szeth is hit by a boulder and knocked from Kal's grasp.     THEN Kal gives up on Szeth - as no unpowered man could have survived that impact.

 

Just my suggestion of how to make it smoother - maybe?    You tell me.

[hoser]

This is not disagreeing with anything you said here.  You've clearly thought it through. 

We're still missing something here.

....

 

I agree that he should value and attempt to protect the defenseless Szeth, as a very valuable source of information - and probably as a human. 

 

But I do not agree that Kal could know or would assume that he could find the blade later.    If the choice was one or the other, then save the Honor blade to keep it away from Bad Guys & give the Good Guys another powerful weapon.

 

I have a greater problem with Szeth doing suicide when he said that he could not, even though he wanted to.

 

I think that it would have been better to have Kal grab the blade and then grab Szeth, but in grabbing Szeth he had to enter the storm (again), where (unpowered) Szeth is hit by a boulder and knocked from Kal's grasp.     THEN Kal gives up on Szeth - as no unpowered man could have survived that impact.

 

Just my suggestion of how to make it smoother - maybe?    You tell me.

As far as the fight goes, I generally ignore the details.  Brandon will make it come out however he wants.  I just hope the gears don't show too obviously.  The whole plateau heaving up was really fun.  Good catch on the Shardhammer, though.  Why would it break bones rather than just passing through? 

I'm not sure that you were speaking to my point in your comments about Kaladin knowing whether to get the blade.  I was not saying that either decision was correct.  I was not saying that Kaladin should have known.  I was just saying that the decision was not clear-cut and Syl immediately being directive was not the role I was used to from her. 

The suicide thing actually makes sense to me.  Suicide was forbidden as part of Szeth's sentence, but his sentence was invalid.  With the sentence being invalid, his murders can no longer even be excused as part of his sentence. 

Your alternate ending does seem better to me, FWIW. 

[king of nowhere]

I am with the "sparing szeth's life, but then not trying to save him from the fall, sounds quite hypocrit". but then, maybe it is supposed to. Not that there would be anything wrong with killing szeth, he was very dangerous, I think even without the blade he still knew how to fight well and he was mostly mad.

Sparing szeth also seems like a doublle standard: how many of the listeners has kaladin killed in fight? I don't remember him going for non-killing blows.

So, if the purpose was to make kaladin look better, then it failed. if the purpose was to show kaladin trying to be better, and still struggling at it, then it's on the spot.

Either way, I don't  see it as an important enough change to justify a retcon like that. However, I trust brandon with it. he knows far more about writing than I do, and so far he's never really let me down.

[natc]

I like it more as well. Sure, it's still his fault, but at least he stopped to think about it for a bit. Then everything took a very unexpected turn for him when the blade unbound and in the rush to grab something he defaulted to his usual morally questionable behavior (supported by Syl's advice). He's still an uncaring jerk, but it's a bit of progress.

[Patrick Star]

As far as the fight goes, I generally ignore the details.  Brandon will make it come out however he wants.  I just hope the gears don't show too obviously.  The whole plateau heaving up was really fun.  Good catch on the Shardhammer, though.  Why would it break bones rather than just passing through? 

 

A sword cuts.  A hammer smashes.  I think the better question is why Kal didn't turn it into an axe or halberd instead.  That would have pretty much ended the fight immediately.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I will start by saying I do like the changes.

What I don't understand though, is that to me, Kaladin never really killed Szeth in the first place. Sure he struck the killing blow, but toe Szeth always committed suicide. Death by cop kind of thing,

He expected a parry. The move was intended to draw Szeth out of his attack pattern. Szeth did not parry. He just closed his eyes.

The only thing that really changes here is Kaladin's intent when doing the final blow to me.

[Kelek's Breath]

Maybe this re-write will be what Kaladin will be debating with himself in book 3, just like in WoR he kept asking

Syl and himself if killing Parshendi was honorable? He keeps asking "was it right to let him die in exchange for

a sword?" or some such (yes, more of Kaladin beating himself up over his choices) instead of "could I have

not killed him?" And Brandon thinks this works better to introduce the next oath.

 

It may also be more necessary for Szeth's arc, when he goes back to Shinovar, and will allow him to think about the

mercy he was shown by Kaladin.

 

A third option is that Brandon wants to highlight some inconsistencies in Syl and spren in general, which will be

made clearer in book 3.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Kelek's Breath

[Honor's Radiance]

First, I don't think this change is intended to make Kaladin look better morally, nor to make him unresponsible for Szeth's 'death'. I think he comes off as approximately equally responsible, and I don't think that's an accident. I think the intent of the change is more to show a moment of second-guessing or wishing it didn't need to be done.

 

Second, I agree with whoever mentioned that it almost looks like Kaladin did intend to go after Szeth until Syl stopped him.

 

No matter how much she forgets or remembers, it is unusual for Syl to flat out tell Kaladin what to do.

 

Point taken, and I thought this was odd in the first version as well. I'm really curious as to what made her so certain to a degree she doesn't usually attain. Or perhaps the increased bond has changed her assertiveness? I think this is setting up some character development for Syl more than it is for Kaladin. I'm interested to find out what she knows of the Honorblades and why retrieving it is so very important.

 

I have a greater problem with Szeth doing suicide when he said that he could not, even though he wanted to.

The suicide thing actually makes sense to me.  Suicide was forbidden as part of Szeth's sentence, but his sentence was invalid.  With the sentence being invalid, his murders can no longer even be excused as part of his sentence.

 

This is the piece I have the most questions about as well. My first reaction is that Szeth determines his sentence invalid, but Nale credits him with following rules for the sake of following rules even when he wasn't sure he deserved the sentence anymore, so I think there's an inconsistency there. I'm curious to see how Brandon resolves this one.

[vineyarddawg]

I don't get why it's a major problem for Kaladin to go after the honorblade instead of trying to save Szeth.  The Windrunners aren't dedicated to protecting everyone in all of existence regardless of alignment.  Szeth is the assassin in white.  Kaladin shouldn't automatically feel a need to protect Szeth just because he happens to be falling to his death in a fight that Szeth started.

 

In fact, Syl told him to rescue the blade (implied "at all cost" in her tone), so it's actually Syl that tells Kaladin to go after the honorblade, and he understands by this point that Syl knows more about these things than he does, so he has no reason in that moment not to obey her command.

[natc]

I don't get why it's a major problem for Kaladin to go after the honorblade instead of trying to save Szeth. The Windrunners aren't dedicated to protecting everyone in all of existence regardless of alignment. Szeth is the assassin in white. Kaladin shouldn't automatically feel a need to protect Szeth just because he happens to be falling to his death in a fight that Szeth started.

In fact, Syl told him to rescue the blade (implied "at all cost" in her tone), so it's actually Syl that tells Kaladin to go after the honorblade, and he understands by this point that Syl knows more about these things than he does, so he has no reason in that moment not to obey her command.

Because he's sworn to protect people who can't protect themselves, even if he hates them. Arguably the honorblade is the only other thing worth saving put there, and while that's probably the higher priority for the cosmere-aware it's not like there's any way in Damnation he would know that. Szeth was screwed and he didn't go after him, though it seems he considered it. Here he was just done calling him a coward for wanting to die before answering for his crimes.

[Savanorn]

I don't like the WoR change. 

 

Mainly because it seems unnecessary. The book is out here and published and there's really no reason to change it...I mean BS says it doesn't fit with Kaladin's character but it isn't like Kal is only about protection.

 

The way I see it, Szeth was a danger no matter what and Kaladin killing him was the right thing to do given the respective contexts and knowledge. Moreover, the re-write is heavy-handed and Syl's comments just seem pretty darn meta, to drive home the point that Szeth is harmless now so it's cool to not confirm that the most dangerous person on Roshar (arguably) is very dead.

 

To bring it back to the issue though, I'd have preferred it if Szeth just gave up and died after realising what Kal was or if Kal outright killed him. The Kaladin just changing where he stabbed at the last minute is....yeah.     

[Unhinged]

I'm going to jump a it off topic here and point out another change that I found interesting

 

"Father carried Shallan over the body of a woman in blue and gold. Little blood there."

 

What interested me is how this is similar to Miles final words

 

"One day, the men of Gold and Red, bearers of the final metal will come to you. And you will be ruled by them."

 

I don't think its a coincidence that Brandon changed it to those colors and I've always suspected that there was more to Shallan's mother than we saw.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Unhinged

[natc]

What do we know about gold and red though?

[Arondell]

Because he's sworn to protect people who can't protect themselves, even if he hates them.

 

Specifically the oath is “I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right.”

 

So there is some room for personal opinion in the oath.

 

Edited March 8, 2015 by Arondell

[natc]

Specifically the oath is “I will protect even those I hate so long as it is right.”

So there is some room for personal opinion in the oath.

I guess there would be. Magic generally seems to leave room for opinion a lot in the cosmere anyway. His opinion seems pretty standard and non-sociopathic for the most part at least, good riddance.

This is one of those ambiguous edge cases the system doesn't catch I guess.

[Shlee]

Jeez, I miss a week or so travelling and the world explodes. Something I haven't seen yet that I think is interesting......Szeth, in the original scene, obviously WANTS to die. I think it's a very good change that Kaladin doesn't grant that to him himself - it would contradict the first oath of the Knight's Radiant as well. Szeth then (in my opinion from reading the tweaks) "chooses" to die by releasing the bond to his honorblade. At that point, it's his choice, out of Kaladin's hands. You can't save someone from themselves.

 

As for some of the comments on Syl and giving orders/knowing things, don't forget that her actions/personality have shown changes (advancements?) as Kaladin has sworn oaths - and we've hardly seen any interaction with her at all since Elhokar, so it's entirely possible that she knows more (and is possibly more commanding?) than she did before.

[Patrick Star]

This is the piece I have the most questions about as well. My first reaction is that Szeth determines his sentence invalid, but Nale credits him with following rules for the sake of following rules even when he wasn't sure he deserved the sentence anymore, so I think there's an inconsistency there. I'm curious to see how Brandon resolves this one.

 

I would take everything that Nale says with a slab of salt (much larger than a grain).  Keep in mind that the heralds have been corrupted, so there's a good chance that he's flat out wrong (and Szeth realizing this could be what turns him into an actual skybreaker).

[Yados]

Don't love any of this. Don't like the change itself. Don't like that such an climactic moment of the story could be edited out a whole year after the fact. 

 

I don't understand how you could be so aware that changing text/works (Star Wars) after the fact can be so weird and problematic, give that lip service, and then just step right over that line. Because this change does alter the emotional state of the characters in very specific and important ways going into the next book. It's a deep edit, probably more radical than anything Lucas ever did in Star Wars. Han shooting first was an establishing sequence, not the climax of the character's story. 

 

This is just bizarre... bad taste left deep within the mouth. 

 

[Sirce Luckwielder]

I think that one thing we need to consider is Szeth's intent. We don't know too much about him, but he is both good and bad. With the Oathstone, he can't do anything to stop what he is commanded. This causes him to weep while he kills, as said on the summary. I think that while Kaladin has been fighting him, he gets some bit of insight that Szeth is doing this misguidedly at least, against his will at the most. He has that moment where he wants to save the innocent, he perhaps realizes that Szeth wanted none of this, that he would rather have killed himself. Letting Szeth kill himself in the end was an act of mercy on Kaladin's part. He knew that Szeth still did the terrible things, he has fisthand experience, so he doesn't go to great lengths to save him. I think the whole death is about both characters, not just Kaladin. Szeth is able to get what he wants, an end and justice for his sins. Kaladin is able to give mercy to the innocent. It makes this all incredibly powerful.

The next book will really tell how this works out, until then, we just need to put our faith in Saderson. Just remember what Sazed told Vin about faith. If we don't hold faith in the dark times, then it has no meaning.

[Flywinged]

I think that one thing we need to consider is Szeth's intent. We don't know too much about him, but he is both good and bad. With the Oathstone, he can't do anything to stop what he is commanded. This causes him to weep while he kills, as said on the summary. I think that while Kaladin has been fighting him, he gets some bit of insight that Szeth is doing this misguidedly at least, against his will at the most. He has that moment where he wants to save the innocent, he perhaps realizes that Szeth wanted none of this, that he would rather have killed himself. Letting Szeth kill himself in the end was an act of mercy on Kaladin's part. He knew that Szeth still did the terrible things, he has fisthand experience, so he doesn't go to great lengths to save him. I think the whole death is about both characters, not just Kaladin. Szeth is able to get what he wants, an end and justice for his sins. Kaladin is able to give mercy to the innocent. It makes this all incredibly powerful.

The next book will really tell how this works out, until then, we just need to put our faith in Saderson. Just remember what Sazed told Vin about faith. If we don't hold faith in the dark times, then it has no meaning.

This is exactly how I feel. Very well worded.

 

Edit:

Q:  What about Kaladin getting sliced with the Shardblade and then being able to rejuvenate.

A:  That is a clue for what is going on with Szeth and his understanding of Shardblades and the Shardblade he has.

Q:  Which is an Honorblade, right?

A:  I can't say, but Szeth says in book one you can't heal a Shardblade wound with Stormlight. There are other very big but subtle discrepancies between what Szeth does and what Kaladin does.

 This is from a WoB. This sounds very reminiscent of what Brandon wrote about the change. When he said,

...as it’s an important plot point for the series that dead Shardblades cannot heal the soul, while living ones can.

 

Still not sure what that means because he was very vague, but it seems really important.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Flywinged

[Arondell]

I think the whole death is about both characters, not just Kaladin. Szeth is able to get what he wants, an end and justice for his sins. Kaladin is able to give mercy to the innocent. It makes this all incredibly powerful.

 

I don't have the impression that Kaladin declined to kill Szeth in climax 2.0 because of a perception of innocence.  Assuming no other textual tweeks happen then Kaladin still believes that Szeth never had to kill and he still accuses Szeth of cowardice.