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Analyzing the Death Rattles

302 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Erklitt said:

Sounds good! I think it would probably have to be the title of highprince, not the kingship, since Elhokar uses a sword instead of a tower in his banner. And I'm not sure about the spear being Bridge Four, that would look like Renarin not only takes up a title but also leadership of the Windrunners - which is unlikely for a Truthwatcher. Yet I think you probably have it right, and the spear will become clear when the time comes. (If the spear isn't Bridge Four, it could of course also refer to Adolin, but I think Renarin is the more likely candidate. 

I thought that the last sentence referred to the he, but you view it as referring to the fallen title. It could be both (that seems like a thing Brandon might do) . I will have to think about this more. 

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8 hours ago, Erklitt said:

Sounds good! I think it would probably have to be the title of highprince, not the kingship, since Elhokar uses a sword instead of a tower in his banner. And I'm not sure about the spear being Bridge Four, that would look like Renarin not only takes up a title but also leadership of the Windrunners - which is unlikely for a Truthwatcher. Yet I think you probably have it right, and the spear will become clear when the time comes. (If the spear isn't Bridge Four, it could of course also refer to Adolin, but I think Renarin is the more likely candidate.)

Funny you revive this thread just now. I have a (less spectacular) idea. I haven't read this whole thread and so cannot be sure that hasn't been suggested before, but at least google gave no relevant results:

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!

Dalinar's visit to the Nightwatcher? Any reason why she couldn't be one of the Unmade? Or the other way round: any proof Dai-Gonarthis / The Black Fisher is one of the Unmade (other than the dashed name)?

I don't think it's Dalinar, since the Death Rattles are supposedly precognition at work, meaning the future.  Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher some time ago, presumably just before Roshone ended up at Hearthstone.

 

As to Dai-gonarthis being one of the Unmade, I would say yes for one reason: emotional destruction.  To put it in terms of other works, this Death Rattle makes it sound like Dai-gonarthis is akin to a dementor, which is to say feeds off and/or induces negative emotion.  Destroying your hope, prolonging your grief, doing anything to keep you from standing up and fighting, that's what this Death Rattle implies.  Plus: Lightweavers would directly oppose this with what they can do ("spiritual sustenance", as we've seen with Shallan and Kaladin in the chasms).  Desolations don't appear to be just about which Radiant uses his or her Shardblade the best.  If the Unmade represent destruction in all its forms, that means body, mind, and soul are all going to war and liable to be attacked by the opposition.  (This is why I think Decayform isn't necessarily about melting people's bodies so much as their will to fight.)

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8 hours ago, thegatorgirl00 said:

I thought that the last sentence referred to the he, but you view it as referring to the fallen title. It could be both (that seems like a thing Brandon might do) . I will have to think about this more. 

No, I think your reading is the better one, that way to read it just didn't occur to me. And I like it better this way... because it means Renarin might actually end up as king. Worse things could happen in SA ;)

 

7 hours ago, dvoraen said:

I don't think it's Dalinar, since the Death Rattles are supposedly precognition at work, meaning the future.  Dalinar went to the Nightwatcher some time ago, presumably just before Roshone ended up at Hearthstone.

 

As to Dai-gonarthis being one of the Unmade, I would say yes for one reason: emotional destruction.  To put it in terms of other works, this Death Rattle makes it sound like Dai-gonarthis is akin to a dementor, which is to say feeds off and/or induces negative emotion.  Destroying your hope, prolonging your grief, doing anything to keep you from standing up and fighting, that's what this Death Rattle implies.  Plus: Lightweavers would directly oppose this with what they can do ("spiritual sustenance", as we've seen with Shallan and Kaladin in the chasms).  Desolations don't appear to be just about which Radiant uses his or her Shardblade the best.  If the Unmade represent destruction in all its forms, that means body, mind, and soul are all going to war and liable to be attacked by the opposition.  (This is why I think Decayform isn't necessarily about melting people's bodies so much as their will to fight.)

Good points.

The Rattles usually being about the future is a problem with my interpretation that occurred to me too after writing that post. The description just seemed to fit so well with what I think happened on that visit that I didn't think long enough about it...

As for Shallan and Kaladin in the chasms, I had put down Shallan's positive attitude to her personality rather than to her being a lightweaver. Or are you thinking of something else? It's certainly an interesting idea, but so far I wouldn't see 'spiritual sustenance' as a lightweaver attribute.  However, Shallan's 'transforming powers' as evidenced by Bluth etc. could be something along those lines, a slightly different aspect yet a valuable weapon in that war.

As for this war being 'body, mind and soul' and the nature of the Unmade, I feel pretty certain you're right. Thanks for this vivid description!

 

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12 hours ago, Erklitt said:

It's certainly an interesting idea, but so far I wouldn't see 'spiritual sustenance' as a lightweaver attribute.

 

Quote

"Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault." —From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10

From the start of Words of Radiance chapter 47.

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1 hour ago, AndrolGenhald said:

 

From the start of Words of Radiance chapter 47.

Thanks for the reference!

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FWIW, I took "spiritual sustenance" to mean improving morale.

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7 hours ago, Argel said:

FWIW, I took "spiritual sustenance" to mean improving morale.

In a sense, yes, but I think it goes deeper than that.  The Ars Arcanum is pretty clear that Lightweavers veer strongly towards the Spiritual in what they do, and we haven't had a reason to doubt its contents, so it stands to reason that they have a more supernatural aspect to "spiritual sustenance".  Morale boosting is surely part of it, but I think it's closer to bolstering Determination and other things, and I use the capital on purpose.  Someone trick answers from Brandon about the names of all the Spiritual attributes, please. >_>

Edited by dvoraen
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This rattle from chapter 8 of WoK:

"Victory! We stand atop thr mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn."

It sounds like it is from the POV of a Herald, with the "burn as we once did" thing. So maybe this is from the end of the series, when the good guys defeat the Voidbringers. Humanity take over Braize (their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms). The Voidbringers are sent to burn in "a place that is hollow and forlorn."

Since the Heralds (probably) burned on Braize, which was hollow and forlorn to them, maybe the Voidbringers will be tortured on Roshar? Maybe Roshar will be turned into something Braize-ish while Braize becomes more habitable. This would make it so that humanity would need to settle on Braize.

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"Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault." —From Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10

 @AndrolGenhald I've been observing this thread and this is Great reference. Have a up vote. 

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Can The Black Fisher be the source of the "plague" in the Purelake?

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26 minutes ago, marianmi said:

Can The Black Fisher be the source of the "plague" in the Purelake?

I think we have a WoB that the "plague" was caused by the three worldhoppers from one of the interludes, who are looking for Wit.

Edit: Here we go!

Quote

Interview: Jan 21st, 2015

Weiry

Whether the plague on the Purelake has anything to do with the fact that the magic fish form symbiotic bonds with spren?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Worldhoppers brought a disease to Roshar that they didn't have before. It's the common cold. Rosharans' investiture makes it so they’re usually a healthy bunch so something like the cold is kind of frightening. "Its a plague of the sniffles”.

 

Edited by Eki
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On 9/18/2012 at 7:30 PM, Observer said:

CITY OF BELLS
A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.
-Collected on the 4th of Tanates, year 1171, thirty seconds before death. Subject was a cobbler of some renown.

Just a note on this part in particular, I personally think it applies to Kaladin, which is a fairly common theory, considering what we have read in the Kaladin excerpt in book 3, and the obvious childhood bond to his city that we have seen. However I just noticed this quote from the end of the transcribed chapter. 

"The arrival of the Everstorm that morning had caused him to collapse, finally giving into his fatigue.  That had been the ringing of the bell that noticed the failure. "

Which I think could be connected to the name of the source chapter of this rattle. City of Bells. Just an observation 

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Military reference- Ringing the bell signifies the admission of failure or giving up a goal. it is a common expression among military types. See, special forces training- ringing the bell.

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4 hours ago, 1stBondsmith said:

Military reference- Ringing the bell signifies the admission of failure or giving up a goal. it is a common expression among military types. See, special forces training- ringing the bell.

Huh, I didn't know that. Well, learn something new every day.

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When they rejoin the enlisted ranks, they're more often then not referred to as bell ringers. And they absolutely hate it lol. 

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THAT WHICH WE CANNOT HAVE
The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended.
-Dated Betabanes, 1173, 95 seconds pre-death. Subject: A scholar of some minor renown. Sample collected secondhand. Considered questionable.

Seems this is speaking of the death of Ym.  The Murder he was involved in changed his life.  His Surgebinding was his strength, but ultimately brings judgement/death upon him, then his experience ends.

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WANDERSAIL

"I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it give us further breath to draw"
-Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: A darkeyes youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note

Honestly, to me this sounds like Lirin when he is performing surgery on Roshone. Honestly, it is doubtful that the death rattle refers to this event; it isn't literal enough. However, by not letting his knife slip, Lirin essentially allowed Roshone to continue strangling and effectively killing Kaladin's family. If Lirin, had just let his knife slip as he was tempted, so much would have happened differently. So, maybe the event is important enough be referred to in a death rattle, but as I said, but the event does not literally fulfill the it. Just figuratively.

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1 hour ago, elezraita said:

 

WANDERSAIL

"I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it give us further breath to draw"
-Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: A darkeyes youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note

Honestly, to me this sounds like Lirin when he is performing surgery on Roshone. Honestly, it is doubtful that the death rattle refers to this event; it isn't literal enough. However, by not letting his knife slip, Lirin essentially allowed Roshone to continue strangling and effectively killing Kaladin's family. If Lirin, had just let his knife slip as he was tempted, so much would have happened differently. So, maybe the event is important enough be referred to in a death rattle, but as I said, but the event does not literally fulfill the it. Just figuratively.

I've wondered if this rattle has to do with whoever will be the (likely) champion of Odium.

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On 2/15/2017 at 9:57 PM, Extesian said:

I've wondered if this rattle has to do with whoever will be the (likely) champion of Odium.

Personally, I really love this theory from Runyan FT (from a different thread):

Quote

Established facts

  1. There will be a 15 year gap between Book 5 & 6 - WoB
  2. Mistborn Era 2 takes place during this gap - Coppermind Chronology
  3. Chapter epitaphs have clues for future events
  4. Oathpact once bound Odium to the Rosharian system, but it's questionable whether or not the Heralds broke the pact

Speculation

  • Book 5 will contain the choosing of champions; Kaladin or Dalinar becomes humanity's champion but Odium pulls a fast one and designates a newborn baby as his champion, thus the following two death rattles combined:
    • "I hold the suckling child [Odium Champion] in my hands , a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.[Humanity wants to kill the champion to end or delay the desolation / defeat Odium] So the night will reign , for the choice of honor is life "
      • Dalinar or Kaladin's oaths would never allow them to kill an innocent child "for the choice of honor is life".  Assuming the shardiac champion system is similar to that of humans, Odium and KR couldn't take action while the champion battle is undecided thus resulting in a stalemate of sorts.   Odiums survives / his preexisting influence continues [the night will reign].  Since KR won't or can't take direct action, Odium heads to Scadrial to attack Harmony (the red encroachment Harmony shows Wax).
      • The 15-year gap allows this child to grow to an age where they could serve as a protagonist, antagonist, or other important character in the second half of Stormlight.

 

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This thread is as good as fan fiction gets!

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On 2/15/2017 at 5:02 PM, elezraita said:

 

WANDERSAIL

"I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it give us further breath to draw"
-Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: A darkeyes youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note

Honestly, to me this sounds like Lirin when he is performing surgery on Roshone. Honestly, it is doubtful that the death rattle refers to this event; it isn't literal enough. However, by not letting his knife slip, Lirin essentially allowed Roshone to continue strangling and effectively killing Kaladin's family. If Lirin, had just let his knife slip as he was tempted, so much would have happened differently. So, maybe the event is important enough be referred to in a death rattle, but as I said, but the event does not literally fulfill the it. Just figuratively.

 

I always took this to be Nalan's POV. He goes around killing "baby" Radiants to prevent / delay another Desolation, thus giving humanity more time. He clearly feels guilt for the blood on his hands, but feels he is serving the greater good.

Alternatively, "further breath to draw" might be related to Radiants using Stormlight (they "breath" it in) with a possible fear they will use it up and/or weaken Honor.

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10 hours ago, asdfman said:

 

I always took this to be Nalan's POV. He goes around killing "baby" Radiants to prevent / delay another Desolation, thus giving humanity more time. He clearly feels guilt for the blood on his hands, but feels he is serving the greater good.

Alternatively, "further breath to draw" might be related to Radiants using Stormlight (they "breath" it in) with a possible fear they will use it up and/or weaken Honor.

I've seen from the resolved death rattles that they are more literal than metaphorical.  So, the baby radiant theory, doesn't have such a high probability IMO.

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roaming through WoR i find a possible interpretation (not full ironclad, but i think solid) of a death rattle.

The day was ours, but they took it,” the boy cried. “Stormfather! You cannot have it. The day is ours. They come, rasping, and the lights fail. Oh, Stormfather!

this should refers to the battle of narak (end of WoR)

the day was ours -> the human army win the fight

but they took it -> the listener succeed in the everstorm's summoning

stormfather you cannot have it -> the stormfather try to hide the whole thing whit an highstorm (i will bring you a storm of cleansing. it will carry away yours corpses. this is all i can do)

they come, rasping -> the most murky point, but i think refer the two storm clashing.

the lights fail -> the ten lamps powering the oathgate fade in the moment of the activation (She pulled her Blade free. The ten lamps faded like closing eyes.)

Edited by Fulminato
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Interesting. You make a convincing argument for that Death Rattle being about the Battle of Narak. But if I'm not wrong, chronologically, that Death Rattle is uttered before the battle, right? Which would then mean that the Death Rattles are clairvoyant. Interesting.

But then again, this might already be well known. I'm really not up to date on current fan theories.

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11 hours ago, Aether said:

Interesting. You make a convincing argument for that Death Rattle being about the Battle of Narak. But if I'm not wrong, chronologically, that Death Rattle is uttered before the battle, right? Which would then mean that the Death Rattles are clairvoyant. Interesting.

But then again, this might already be well known. I'm really not up to date on current fan theories.

(near) all the death rattle are some event foreseeing 

There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. But no, this is a distraction. Deviation. Kingship. We must discuss the nature of kingship.
—From the Diagram, Book of the 2nd Desk Drawer: paragraph 15

Edited by Fulminato
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