Analyzing the Death Rattles

[Shaggai]

Thus we technically haven't seen this death rattle happen. Also, they probably use needles. It's supposed to be a controlled process after all. With a knife, you risk killing the person too fast for the to rattle anything. Vargo might kill with a knife a child later on, but so far he hasn't.

The Death Rattles show the future, and possibly the past or present in some cases. Not seeing it happen doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, or hasn't happened at some point when we weren't watching. If you only make a small, shallow cut with the knife, you can drain the blood easily.

[Aleksiel]

The Death Rattles show the future, and possibly the past or present in some cases. Not seeing it happen doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, or hasn't happened at some point when we weren't watching. 

 

By this logic, all of them could have happened when we weren't watching. I think Brandon will shows us all mentioned death rattles, else he wouldn't have written them. With what's so far considered confirmed, we have chapter titles and seen event to back them up, You are speculation without much proof Vargo might have done something we didn't witness. 

[Shaggai]

By this logic, all of them could have happened when we weren't watching. I think Brandon will shows us all mentioned death rattles, else he wouldn't have written them. With what's so far considered confirmed, we have chapter titles and seen event to back them up, You are speculation without much proof Vargo might have done something we didn't witness.

So when was this one:

I’m cold. Mother, I’m cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop?

-Collected on Vevishes, 1172, 32 seconds pre-death. Subject was a lighteyes female child, six years old.

And this one:

Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.

-Collected: Jesachev, 1173, 12 seconds pre-death. Subject: one of our own ardents, overheard during his last moments

And this one:

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my soul and consumes it!

-Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89.

By your logic, they've already happened, and we've seen it. So when were they?

[Aleksiel]

So when was this one:

I’m cold. Mother, I’m cold. Mother? Why can I still hear the rain? Will it stop?

-Collected on Vevishes, 1172, 32 seconds pre-death. Subject was a lighteyes female child, six years old.

And this one:

Ten people, with Shardblades alight, standing before a wall of black and white and red.

-Collected: Jesachev, 1173, 12 seconds pre-death. Subject: one of our own ardents, overheard during his last moments

And this one:

Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my soul and consumes it!

-Tanatesach 1173, 28 seconds pre-death. A darkeyed female street juggler. Note similarity to sample 1172-89.

By your logic, they've already happened, and we've seen it. So when were they?

 

We haven't seen them and they are yet to happen as far as I'm concerned. The death rattles you chose aren't in the 'confirmed events' section, which I was referring to. How exactly did you conclude logic demands they've happened already?

Edited May 2, 2014 by Aleksiel

[happyman]

Shaggai,  while your interpretation isn't nonsense and debating the literalness of the death rattles is worthwhile, I think you are sticking a bit too hard to one possible interpretation when it is far more likely that a better interpretation will come along in future books.

 

If you don't believe this, look at some of the early interpretations of the "person who killed my honor" in this thread.  They were way off, trying to fit events from WoK to something that was much, much more satisfyingly fit in WoR.

 

It seems to me that we should take your interpretation as possible, but I personally feel that its much more likely referring to something that we haven't seen yet.  Most people arguing against your interpretation don't have anything sensible to fit the rattle too, and you seem to think that is a bigger weakness than it really is.

[RShara]

I'm with happyman.  The Death Rattles are very clear once they've happened, and we haven't seen anything that really comes close other than very metaphorically--more so than I think they are meant to be.

 

Aleksiel, I believe Shaggai was trying to point out that if Death Rattles can happen off-screen, then any of them might have already taken place, and we just didn't get to see them. 

 

In WoK in Kharbranth, we see that they kill the people by draining the blood through a vein in their elbows.

[Aleksiel]

Aleksiel, I believe Shaggai was trying to point out that if Death Rattles can happen off-screen, then any of them might have already taken place, and we just didn't get to see them. 

 

I kind of got that, however I don't understand why Shaggai concluded that from my post he quoted, because my point was exactly the opposite. Most likely we'll see all death rattles happen, else Brandon wouldn't have included them, so it's highly unlikely for any of them to happen off-screen without being specifically mentioned. 

[RShara]

Yeah I'm not sure either.  He seemed to be the one arguing that they could happen off screen.  *shrugs and spins around wildly*

[Delightful]

I mentioned this in the Dates thread, but the one about Kaladin's bridge leap is the only one out of chronological order. [7-2-2] The next chapter's quote is on [7-2-1]. http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/457-dates/page__view__findpost__p__10265

Also, the first death quote "It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes." takes place on [6-5-1] of 1171.

This one and all the ones after it take place more than a thousand days after. So either the 1000 days is not exact, or the Everstorm is more of a metaphor than Tanavast's vision to Dalinar made it seem.

Seems like it could be any Radiant to me, it's just the reverse of the 1st Ideal.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/791-epigraphs-spoilers/page__view__findpost__p__13575 Last time epigraphs were discussed.

I have a slightly convoluted theory about this. The only pits we have at this point is the dueling pits, so I'm going to assume that in this instance, "pit" means chasm. If anyone falls into the chasms on the Shattered Plains, they're assumed dead, but if Kaladin works on his Windrunners abilities a bit, he should be able to keep himself and another guy alive if they fall in. And if they come out with a "heart" (gemheart) I think they'd get a lot of glory.

(WoR)

Congrats on getting 'two dead men' right!! It's scary how that happens. Like that person who said if he/she wanted to be really mean they'd attach Szeth's Oathstone to Nightblood's hilt and have it tell him what to do (although that was more silly than serious speculation....obviously? )

It scares me, sort of, how much guesswork ends up being correct. It's the infinite-drunk-monkeys on infinite typewriters thing, maybe? Or are we somehow reading Brandon's mind?

[Observer]

Brandon picked a lot of very specific Death Rattles to include in WoK, ones that he could have substituted for others. Almost all the Rattles have to do with major events in the world, which is why they say

 

And all the world was shattered! The rocks trembled with their steps, and the stones reached towards the heavens. We die! We die!

 

Instead of

And the old woman put on the ugly new shoes! The children trembled in their beds, praying towards the heavens! The horror! The horror! 

 

So I'm guessing we'll probably be seeing all or most of them come true.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Observer

[Mckeedee123]

Epigraph for chapter 68:

 

“All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.”

 

This actually sounds like Dalinar to me, because he's actually bonded to the storm. He's had quite a few people who killed his promises. 

 

And yes, by the way, the death rattles we've interpreted are not metaphorical in any sense. Every single detail actually happened, and there's actually a possibility that they're all  spoken from the perspective of viewpoint characters

[Oudeis]

"The feast I must drink clings to their faces" is at least sort of a metaphor. Also, "Two men come from the pit," that detail was... off.

[Shaggai]

"The feast I must drink clings to their faces" is at least sort of a metaphor. Also, "Two men come from the pit," that detail was... off.

"Men" was, at least at one point, sometimes used gender-neutrally. That could be it.

[Observer]

The point is that those are *really* obvious fits now that they've happened, even if there was a bit of metaphorical stuff going on. A lot of other interpretations are kind of iffy, which is a pretty good sign of not fitting. Even the ones that weren't totally literal still fit like a glove.

[Patrick Star]

"The feast I must drink clings to their faces" is at least sort of a metaphor. Also, "Two men come from the pit," that detail was... off.

 

The feast?  Oh, that's because of beards.  Alethi hair has a remarkable consistency, and acts as an incredible flavor saver.

 

It comes in handy when wearing shardplate.

[dvoraen]

I don't think the Shin sailor's quote IS a death rattle. I always read it as him being aware of his pre-death vision but not subsumed by it (perhaps this is something to do with Stone Shamanism?) and refusing to give the information to Taravangian's nurses out of disgust at what they're doing in the 'hospitals' ("I wish to sleep. I know now why you do what you do, and I hate you for it. I will not speak of the truths I see".)

Oh hai, first post here.

 

Anyway, this Death Rattle is ambiguous, but I've always wondered one thing: How do we know it's not Moelach directly speaking to the individual(s) recording Death Rattles?  The context fits as well, particularly "I wish to sleep." when combined with Vargo's viewpoint regarding Moelach and slumbering.

 

So far as I've read, no one's voiced this possibility, which probably means I missed it.

Edited November 20, 2014 by dvoraen

[Shaggai]

Oh hai, first post here.

 

Anyway, this Death Rattle is ambiguous, but I've always wondered one thing: How do we know it's not Moelach directly speaking to the individual(s) recording Death Rattles?  The context fits as well, particularly "I wish to sleep." when combined with Vargo's viewpoint regarding Moelach and slumbering.

 

So far as I've read, no one's voiced this possibility, which probably means I missed it.

One of them, IIRC, includes a phrase like "who is that behind you, with his head of lines?" It seems too confused to be dictated directly from Moelach. It's possible that there are multiple effects going on. Actually, that seems pretty likely.

[Mckeedee123]

So speaking of metaphors, there is a very obvious one in the epigraph of the prologue:

 

“The love of men is a frigid thing, a mountain stream only three steps from the ice. We are his. Oh Stormfather…we are his. It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes.”

 

How "metaphorical" is the metaphor in this one? Could it have a slightly literal meaning too?

 

We have several death rattles (and Dalinar's last WoK vision) talking about the sun going cold. Could that be what the "ice" is? If so, I'd guess the "three steps" also have a meaning. Oddly specific number don't you think? Hmm, there's an epigraph later in the book that goes like this...

 

“I have seen the end, and have heard it named. The Night of Sorrows, the True Desolation. The Everstorm.”

 

Could these three phrases be referring to the three steps mentioned in the prologue's death rattle? We see them popping up several times in Dalinar's visions. Presumably, they're the same thing (the Everstorm), but in the Recreance vision, they're stated like this:

 

“I have said I that cannot be of much help to you. The Night of Sorrows will come, and the True Desolation. The Everstorm.”

 

Now, normally I wouldn't presume that the rattle means something so abstract, but the reason I'm suggesting this is because the "the love of men" one is the epigraph for the prologue. In Mistborn, Brandon hinted that the first epigraph we saw had the most important meaning. Wouldn't it be fitting if the entire series was outlined in the very first epigraph? The Everstorm, the True Desolation, the Night of Sorrows. The first two books are a lead-in for the Everstorm. Now we're in the True Desolation phase.

Edited November 26, 2014 by mckeedee123

[Oudeis]

The first epigraph didn't have the most important meaning in Mistborn, it simply held one clue to the final act of the climax. Other epigraphs were equally, if not more, important.

 

This isn't necessarily to take away from you base point. It doesn't even prove that this epigraph isn't important for being in the prologue. It simply isn't proof that being in the prologue makes it important.

 

Speaking of, I calculated, and as far as the actual timing was concerned, it was off by 229 days, almost half a year.

[Mckeedee123]

 

 

Speaking of, I calculated, and as far as the actual timing was concerned, it was off by 229 days, almost half a year.

Yeah. that's why I think the speaker is actually channeling someone in the future. Perhaps even Renarin.

 

And I don't necessarily think it's the most important rattle (The one with the suckling child and Valam's seem more relevant to the climax), it would just be fitting for a basic outline of the series to be contained in the first epigraph. Presumably, the first "step to the ice" is the Everstorm. The next part is the True Desolation (probably the voidbringer rampage and the "flames" mentioned in other rattles). The Night of Sorrows is what Dalinar sees in his last vision in the Way if Kings. How else can the dichotomy of burning and cold/raining in these rattles be reconciled?

Edited November 26, 2014 by mckeedee123

[Observer]

How else can the dichotomy of burning and cold/raining in these rattles be reconciled?

 

Greek fire obviously.

[Mckeedee123]

Greek fire obviously.

 

Which brings up all kinds of Cosmere questions. How did Odium come into contact with the Byzantine empire? And how will this affect naval battles between the humans and the voidbringers?

[Dellexe]

JUST HAD AN EPIPHANY MOMENT! 

-

So the epigraph of chapter 3 of the Way of Kings is “A man stood on a cliffside and watched his homeland fall into dust. The waters surged beneath, so far beneath. And he heard a child crying. They were his own tears.”

-

So I've seen speculation that this could be referring to Dalinar watching Kholinar fall or Kaladin seeing his hometown destroyed. 

I have not seen an interpretation that I have just thought of. What if this is Szeth watching Shinovar be destroyed by the Everstorm? "The waters surged beneath" could be the wall of water carried by the stormwall. The cliffside could be the mountains ringing Shinovar. Also, Shin and Szeth particularly are regularly described as having eyes that seem childlike to Easterners. Destroy this theory of mine! 

[Patrick Star]

Destroy this theory of mine! 

 

Much Obliged!

 

 

When I read that rattle, I more think of how the water surges down the chasms during a highstorm, so I think it's referring to an event on the shattered planes.  Or possibly the purelake.  Not sure.  And I think you may be reading too much into the "child" part.

[Alfa]

 

All is withdrawn for me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds.

 

I think this is from Kaladins Perspective, when he protects Elohkar "the one who killed his promises" against Moash, who saved him once. The responding storm is most likely the stormlight, that "responds" to Kaladin saying the third ideal of the Windrunners, or maybe the Stormfather. I'm not shure if K. raises his hand there, but i think it's possible.
 

Edited July 24, 2015 by Alfa