Observer

Analyzing the Death Rattles

302 posts in this topic

I don't place a great deal of credence to the idea that seeing the future = Voidbinding, for the record, I suspect that's a religious misunderstanding.

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WANDERSAIL

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it give us further breath to draw

-Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: A darkeyes youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

Here's a thought: is it possible that this is from Odium's perspective, referring to the Splintering of Honor?

Shards seem to have something like a mind behind them -at the very least, some force to power its intent- but the level of actual thought and awareness is still subject to question. They may very well seem like newborn babies to someone with more complex thought patterns, like an adult human (or, on a much higher level, a Shardbearer). Thus, Honor -not Tanavast, who is probably already dead by this point, but the actual shard Honor- could be "the suckling child."

What does it mean to Splinter a Shard? We know it's possible to kill a Shardholder without doing that. It seems likely that Splintering would be traumatic enough to kill a Shardholder who is not already dead, but is this even possible? Odium doesn't seem the sort to confront other Shardholders directly unless absolutely necessary, but thus far he's killed the holder of every Shard he's Splintered, so perhaps it is necessary. What if the way to Splinter a Shard were simply for its holder to command it to Splinter? This would certainly necessitate killing any existing Shardholder first. You would then have to pick up the Shard briefly without bonding to it -another thing that we know is possible- and this could be "holding the child in my hands, a knife at his throat."

People don't usually commit atrocities without perceiving a reason to do so (even if, from an outsider's perspective, that reason is seldom if ever a good one). Has Rayse convinced himself, possibly under Odium's influence, that this is for the good of the cosmere? Or is he perhaps a kind of solipsist, believing that he (and Odium?) are the only things that truly exist, or are at least the only things that matter? Either line of thinking could easily lead a person to "know" that "all who live" deem this course of action necessary.

It is interesting that Shards are never spoken of as destroyed, but "Splintered". It implies that they are not truly gone, but that their power is dispersed. If we take blood to be a metaphor for power in this case, then it is indeed "spilled upon the ground, over (Rayse's) hands," though it does lead to a curious inconsistency where a Shard whose "blood" is spilled still does not truly die. Metaphors, by their nature, can only be stretched so far.

And lastly, there is the matter of "giving us further breath to draw." It is possible that this is about survival: Odium may think the other Shardholders wish to kill him, and since his name can be taken to mean "that which should be hated," this is might not be the most unreasonable thing to fear. By striking at them first, he hopes to survive: thus, by their deaths, he gains further breath to draw. But he also seeks to set himself apart from the rest of the cosmere by being the only entity at his level of power: as such, every Shard he defeats puts him further away from the rest oc the cosmere. That could be said to give him more breathing room: "more breath to draw".

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He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!

-Dated Vevahach, 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. Subject: A prostitute. Background unknown.

---The Tower and Crown are Dalinar's symbols, and the Spear is Kaladin's weapon. Not an overly solid connection, but a working one. I suspect further investigation will reveal more from this quote.

Fallen title - Knights Radiant

Tower - 1) Big plateau where Sadeas abandoned Dalinar's army. 2) Wasn't it Tower where Knight Radiants resided?

Crown - 1) Dalinar won Elhokar's faith 2) Kaladin becomes king.

Spear - 1) Kaladin (Dalinar befriended him) 2) Kaladin picked up spear.

Thats how I see it. "The tower, the crown, and the spear!" - tower and crown referring to Kholins and Spear to Kaladin... idk I think each of them means different thing or all together something one.

Shardblades... Honorblades... I think those are same. 1) Honorblades were blades of honor, then someone(Odium) corrupted them and they became Shardblades. 2) Back then, people wielding Shardblades were honorable, now they see Honor as foolishness. 3) Both.

Windblades? What are those?

Edited by 213
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HONOR IS DEAD

Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?

-Collected on the second day of Kakash, year 1171, five seconds before death. Subject was a lighteyes woman in her third decade

This is interesting to me, because of the shard of my soul reference. Is it possible that the nahel bond doesn't just gift the bound spren with a Cognitive aspect but a Spiritual one as well?

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Shardblades... Honorblades... I think those are same

These blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious. Jezrien stood outside the ring of swords, looking eastward.

Windblades? What are those?

They're the tall pillars of rock in Dalinar's homeland.

Edited by Observer
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I'm starting to think this is Taln speaking.

When Kalak spoke of "that place of pain and fire" and "The flesh burning. The fires. The pain over and over and over..." initially I took this to mean that the Heralds finally broke because they could no longer endure repeated torture at the hands of Odium. That reeks too much of Odium being sadism incarnate. Sadism alone doesn't seem to mesh well with the nuances of the meaning of odium. Rather than Kalak dreading becoming once again the recipient of endless pain, I think instead he dreaded once more becoming a person who must mete out endless pain.

What is the most loathsome thing one can do to someone sworn to protect others? Twist the oath so that, in order to uphold it, one must commit terrible atrocities against a small number in order to protect the greater number.

That, sir, is a very good idea, +1 to you. My issue, looking at this, is the flesh burning part; unless the dawnshards or whatever the Heralds use cause fire, I don't know how that would fit in.

Also, good topic: I never connected the death sayings to events in the present.

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Doesn't Shadesmar have a whole bunch of fire everywhere? It could be that they died and got their minds trapped in there for a few centuries of torment.

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It could. I'll have to find the description of Shadesmar in my copy tonight....

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I believe many of these are similar to Dalinar's dreams in that we have someone experiencing the historical perspective of someone else. With that I have a few wild speculations.

"Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?" - From the perspective of a KR. Implies also that Honor perhaps created the humans or has given a part of himself to humans. "Shard of my soul..." I don't think that is just a turn of phrase.

"Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn." One of the fallen Herald's perhaps. They have sent a vanquished enemy to their place of torment. Absolutely wild speculation follows: The parshmen appear to be soulless automatons. Could their souls have been sent to Damnation when the 9 Herald's violated the oathpact. This would fit with Jasnah's theory on the parshmen.

"Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broekn One reigns" - The default assumption is that the Broken one is Odium but to me that doesn't fit. Could the splinters of Honor be the broken one, and in its splintered state we have a perversion of honor. This goes along with the metaphor of the Wandersail. Where the dead king's edicts are carried out in a perverse manner with no understanding.

"A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal." Believe this is referring to that Herald that desecrates her own statues. Forget the name.

"Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us." I think this is Honor himself speaking

"The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended." Either Tanavast/Honor or the Way of Kings writer.

"All is withdrawn from me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds." Wild speculation that this is Odium

Anyone else confused about who the Stormfather is?

Edited by dionysus
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It may have just been me, but I got the feeling that most of the deathquotes reflected something in the chapter they precede. If we look at it through that lens, I have a feeling everything will be much clearer.

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The stormfather is the leader of the heralds, I believe that was mentioned in a bridge 4 chapter. If quotes are needed, I'll find them.

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I believe many of these are similar to Dalinar's dreams in that we have someone experiencing the historical perspective of someone else. With that I have a few wild speculations.

"Ten orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us, Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?" - From the perspective of a KR. Implies also that Honor perhaps created the humans or has given a part of himself to humans. "Shard of my soul..." I don't think that is just a turn of phrase.

The fact that the Almight IS a shard makes this sample even more noteworthy.

"Victory! We stand atop the mount! We scatter them before us! Their homes become our dens, their lands are now our farms! And they shall burn, as we once did, in a place that is hollow and forlorn." One of the fallen Herald's perhaps. They have sent a vanquished enemy to their place of torment. Absolutely wild speculation follows: The parshmen appear to be soulless automatons. Could their souls have been sent to Damnation when the 9 Herald's violated the oathpact. This would fit with Jasnah's theory on the parshmen.

Sound smore like something something else would say about humans being kicked out...scariness.

"Three of sixteen ruled, but now the Broekn One reigns" - The default assumption is that the Broken one is Odium but to me that doesn't fit. Could the splinters of Honor be the broken one, and in its splintered state we have a perversion of honor. This goes along with the metaphor of the Wandersail. Where the dead king's edicts are carried out in a perverse manner with no understanding.

The storm said quite clearly that Odium reigns, and we know that Honor is gone, and we've had it strongly hinted at that Cultivation is as well. What if by 'three of sixteen reigned' it means they worked together, and Odium 'broke' the peace?

"A woman sits and scratches out her own eyes. Daughter of kings and winds, the vandal." Believe this is referring to that Herald that desecrates her own statues. Forget the name.

Shallash, the Herald for the artistic Devotionaries, which is kind of ironic all things considered.

"Light grows so distant. The storm never stops. I am broken, and all around me have died. I weep for the end of all things. He has won. Oh, he has beaten us." I think this is Honor himself speaking

I don't think so. In the visions, Honor seemed much more confident that Odium could be beaten than Preservation in the visions.

"The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended." Either Tanavast/Honor or the Way of Kings writer.

Sounds like somebody commenting on death.

"All is withdrawn from me. I stand against the one who saved my life. I protect the one who killed my promises. I raise my hand. The storm responds." Wild speculation that this is Odium

I doubt it's Odium. It simply doesn't fit the loathsome and crafty Rayse we know.

Anyone else confused about who the Stormfather is?

He's Jezrien, Lord of the Heralds.

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You missed one.

HOID AND SZETH'S EXCELLENT ADVENTURE

Don't worry. I've tried this before.

-Dated Shashanan, 1171, 10 seconds pre-death. Subject: Young lighteyed officer. Sample is considered incredibly important.

I think this one implies that you shouldn't try to jump in front of a car driven by a Voidbringer.

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You missed one.

I think this one implies that you shouldn't try to jump in front of a car driven by a Voidbringer.

Congratz, you made me laugh.

Added a deathcry I missed

Edited by Observer
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I mentioned this in the Dates thread, but the one about Kaladin's bridge leap is the only one out of chronological order. [7-2-2] The next chapter's quote is on [7-2-1].

Also, the first death quote "It is but a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes." takes place on [6-5-1] of 1171.

“ReShephir, the Midnight Mother, giving birth to abominations with her essence so dark, so terrible, so consuming. She is here! She watches me die!”—Dated Shashabev, 1173, 8 seconds pre-death. Subject: a darkeyed dock-worker in his forties, father of three. (284) [6-7-4]

This one and all the ones after it take place more than a thousand days after. So either the 1000 days is not exact, or the Everstorm is more of a metaphor than Tanavast's vision to Dalinar made it seem.

“The death is my life, the strength becomes my weakness, the journey has ended.”—Dated Betabanes, 1173, 95 seconds pre-death. Subject: a scholar of some minor renown. Sample collected secondhand. Considered questionable.(306) [7-2-1]

Seems like it could be any Radiant to me, it's just the reverse of the 1st Ideal.

Last time epigraphs were discussed.

“They come from the pit, two dead men, a heart in their hands, and I know that I have seen true glory.”—Kakashah 1173, 13 seconds pre-death. A rickshaw puller. (380) [8-6-5]

I have a slightly convoluted theory about this. The only pits we have at this point is the dueling pits, so I'm going to assume that in this instance, "pit" means chasm. If anyone falls into the chasms on the Shattered Plains, they're assumed dead, but if Kaladin works on his Windrunners abilities a bit, he should be able to keep himself and another guy alive if they fall in. And if they come out with a "heart" (gemheart) I think they'd get a lot of glory.

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I'm starting to think this is Taln speaking.

When Kalak spoke of "that place of pain and fire" and "The flesh burning. The fires. The pain over and over and over..." initially I took this to mean that the Heralds finally broke because they could no longer endure repeated torture at the hands of Odium. That reeks too much of Odium being sadism incarnate. Sadism alone doesn't seem to mesh well with the nuances of the meaning of odium. Rather than Kalak dreading becoming once again the recipient of endless pain, I think instead he dreaded once more becoming a person who must mete out endless pain.

What is the most loathsome thing one can do to someone sworn to protect others? Twist the oath so that, in order to uphold it, one must commit terrible atrocities against a small number in order to protect the greater number.

I don't think this can be the case...

In the prologue Kalak specifically remembers being tortured himself. He talks about hooks into his body and burning through his skin and fat etc..

Not got an exact quote but it definitely implies tha Kalak is the one being tortured.

Edited by MadRand
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“They come from the pit, two dead men, a heart in their hands, and I know that I have seen true glory.”—Kakashah 1173, 13 seconds pre-death. A rickshaw puller.

Who buys corpses? Sadeas. The stupid ones walk around, thinking they still lived, but they're dead.

This could refer to that particualar quote.

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I don't think this can be the case...

In the prologue Kalak specifically remembers being tortured himself. He talks about hooks into his body and burning through his skin and fat etc..

Not got an exact quote but it definitely implies tha Kalak is the one being tortured.

I'm not entirely certain that they're mutually exclusive. We don't know what happened to the Heralds after they left; it's possible that those who were tortured might have found themselves forced to become the torturers.

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I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it give us further breath to draw

-Dated Shashanan, 1173, 23 seconds pre-death. Subject: A darkeyes youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note.

I've been thinking that this quote actually refers to Taravangian. One of the death cries has a note about it being from a child and that the child's diction improved remarkably while speaking. I can imagine his next "test" being to try an even younger child (perhaps one even still nursing) and see if THEY would talk. All in the interest of helping humanity, of course.

That would also explain why he or his helpers think that the sample is of particular note. They'll interpret it as proof that what they're doing is right.

“They come from the pit, two dead men, a heart in their hands, and I know that I have seen true glory.”—Kakashah 1173, 13 seconds pre-death. A rickshaw puller.

I personally interpreted this as being the return of Dalinar and Adolin, who should have been dead, and who hold Navani's heart in their hands, metaphorically speaking. (Of course, that's Dalinar much much more than Adolin, so it's not exactly a perfect theory.)

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I personally interpreted this as being the return of Dalinar and Adolin, who should have been dead, and who hold Navani's heart in their hands, metaphorically speaking. (Of course, that's Dalinar much much more than Adolin, so it's not exactly a perfect theory.)

That is really good; I never thought of it that way, I thought it was more literal. Good job!

Anyway, do you think there will be more death cry chapter headings in book 2?

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“They come from the pit, two dead men, a heart in their hands, and I know that I have seen true glory.”—Kakashah 1173, 13 seconds pre-death. A rickshaw puller.

I personally interpreted this as being the return of Dalinar and Adolin, who should have been dead, and who hold Navani's heart in their hands, metaphorically speaking. (Of course, that's Dalinar much much more than Adolin, so it's not exactly a perfect theory.)

Different take: The Gemheart from the Greatshell. Not sure if this would refer to Dalinar and Elhokar, or Alinar and Adolin. Either way, this could refer to that. Or to something else entirely. These death-quotes are very like prophecy - vague enough that many meanings can be inferred.

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