What Specifically Is The Deal With Feruchemical Steel?

[Oudeis]

I don't understand feruchemical steel. I understand a lot of it; I get that there are times you reach the limit of how fast your body can move and being able to increase that is helpful. But Sazed uses it for long-distance travel. That doesn't make any sense.

 

If all I'm doing is walking from one end of a football field to another, could I tap steel and get there faster? Presumably because it makes my legs move faster. Except... there's already a way to make my legs move faster, and it doesn't require Investiture, it's just called sprinting. The reason I can't sprint for nine straight hours has nothing to do with a limit on how fast I can make my body move. It has to do with oxygen debt (cadmium), metabolic energy and hydration (bendalloy), and wear on my muscles (gold). So... what is steel doing? Does it provide me with energy? Where does it get the energy from? Do I have to be moving in order to store steel? If I'm storing in steel, and I move my hand over to grab a potato chip, my arm will move faster. Is it saving up metabolic energy? Do I end up using more energy than I would have if I'd reached at normal speeds, and does that metabolic energy later come back to help me when I tap steel to move? If I store steel and walk from here to my bedroom, will I find myself panting with the exertion of traveling thirty feet, and will that PO(2) be returned to me later when a day of traveling a hundred miles should be burning me through thousands of calories I don't seem to be required to eat?

 

So then, what if I store steel but don't move? Do I get charged a flat rate of all those things just to store, and then get them back later? Except Sazed didn't seem to be suffering from shortness of breath when he was storing speed in Well of Ascension. So, was the steel he was storing only good for some things? Could it not have let him travel later?

 

What's the difference between walking while tapping feruchemical steel, and sprinting when you're not? What is the exact mechanism by which feruchemical steel grants you the ability to cover great distances and not just improve your typing speed?

 

A quick note: If your answer is going to be "It just lets you move faster without costing you anything", there, I saved you the trouble of posting. If your only reply is going to be, "I don't think about the inconsistencies and you shouldn't either," I and everyone else now already know what you're going to say. You won't be adding anything to the conversation, so don't waste our time by saying it again.

[Voidus]

Assuming that it speeds up your entire body I imagine that oxygenation would also speed up as you'd be breathing faster and your blood would circulate that oxygen faster, as for energy I assume it just extends to a molecular level, accelerating the rate at which your body creates energy. The increased wear I imagine falls under the blanket protection feruchemy offers to being harmed by it's effects.

[Moogle]

I've been envisioning it as a self-only time bubble (because tapping steel doesn't make the world go darker for you, even though your eyes should detect roughly half as many photons per brain cycle if you speed up 2x... unless this falls under the general property of Feruchemy that it protects you from negative things?), though I'm not sure how to resolve inconsistencies with there being a metal for mental speed too. If every molecule in your body is sped up 2x, you should be thinking faster too.  (Actually, this might happen?)

 

Steel is very weird. Would welcome a coherent explanation, though I get the feeling it's more like Feruchemical iron...

Edited February 20, 2015 by Moogle

[Kipper]

Oudeis, I know you said not to say this, but I think that this is one of the areas where some handwavium is involved. In the scene where Sazed is storing it, he notes that he is sluggish, which implies to me that he is putting forth the same effort, but he just. Can't. Move as fast. Like I said, sorry for saying it, but I believe this is an instance of handwavium. After all, it's magic...

The same thing happens with the Feruchemical weight issue. If you look at it scientifically, it really doesn't work that well.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Snoopy

[Oudeis]

Assuming that it speeds up your entire body I imagine that oxygenation would also speed up as you'd be breathing faster and your blood would circulate that oxygen faster, as for energy I assume it just extends to a molecular level, accelerating the rate at which your body creates energy. The increased wear I imagine falls under the blanket protection feruchemy offers to being harmed by it's effects.

 

Your body does not create energy, your body turns caloric energy in food into metabolic energy. Sazed uses steel for a solid week, covering an incredible distance (my nook is dead and charging; if someone can find the quote and put down actual numbers there's an upvote in it for you). Unless steel is creating energy out of nothing, he should have to eat enough to power his body to travel that great a distance, which would be far more food than he could possibly have on him, and he points out that the villages he passes are more likely to need food from him than to be able to provide it.

I'm on the fence about accepting oxygenation, since that at least is plentiful, but I'm not wholly sure I buy it. It sounds very "comic book," lumping things in together. Steel is supposed to be physical speed; like Moogle says, if it speeds up body processes, why don't you think faster? Why don't you heal faster? It's plausible, but it's far from elegant, and it feels like a kludge. It feels less like "there's an underlying principle and all the facts arise from it" and sounds more like "I had kind of an idea, but it won't work so I'm tacking independent blocks onto it to make a frankenstein's monster." The reason Mr. Sanderson has spoiled me for other writers is because he's almost always been better than that. As has been pointed out, yes iron is a bit odd, as are the external temporal allomantic metals. Maybe the answer is just "shh don't look closer." But I hold out hope that there's a better answer to be had. My faith in Mr. Sanderson's exceptional writing skills is seldom misplaced.

[Omniscience]

I am a science major and I think I can justify this. Feruchemy, as I see it is, influences neural processes and when you fill a metalmind you fill it with energy, ATP, that powers that specific process. In the case of steel where you are storing speed the neural system reroutes a portion of the energy generated for speed, which is simply the rate of contraction of specific muscles, to the metalmind. This does not affect mental speed as mental speed is related to the rate of firing of specific neurons which is also powered by ATP, and in this case that energy is being stored in zinc. Oxygenation is irrelevant as given enough energy you don't even need to breath. Also the body doesn't need oxygen to generate energy, although without it the generation is more inefficient and will not last long. Also it should be noted that 60% of the energy in sugar, that is to say glucose, is lost as heat. Storing or tapping speed could merely cause the rate of efficiency to change and therefore generate less or more energy. Storing speed could also work as simply as affecting the magnitude of air resistance on your body.

[Voidus]

I was somewhat using hyperbole, but yes you're right, what I was referring to was the speeding of metabolic processes so that the ATP breaks down faster, releasing more useful energy.

Alternatively it does just store the energy released by these breakdown processes, so when you're storing your body is breaking down more ATP than is needed for bodily processes and some of the released energy is stored in the metalmind.

On why it doesn't speed up thoughts, firstly I would say that we don't know that it doesn't, secondly in the cosmere there is likely a realmatic explanation for this, Steel only speeds up the physical aspects not the cognitive, so perhaps your reflexes would be faster (Nerve impulses travelling faster) but thoughts themselves fall into a different realm.

Healing is interesting, there's the point that perhaps you actually do but people wouldn't often tap enough speed to notice it, healing needs to be compounded hundreds if not thousands of times to be visibly obvious.

[hoidhunter]

Like Moogle...I have always viewed the use of feruchemal steel as being similar to the temporal metals...but with the area of influence limited to the confines of your own skin.  Focus less on what is going on anatomically and think more in terms of temporal manipulation.  

 

Example:  A pulser can create a time bubble that decreases the progression of time on the inside of the bubble.  If a pulser uses this ability to make an entire day pass in just a few minutes...they're not starving, dehydrated, and about to wet themselves when the bubble drops...despite the fact that 24 hours has passed on the outside...only a few minutes has passed on the inside.  

 

So I guess what I'm saying is...When storing speed... it appears that your movements are slower, your pulse is slower, your breathing is slower...but this is only when looking from the outside.  In actuality, your body thinks that everything is normal...it's just passing through time slower than it usually does.  Taking more time to do things than usual.  So then...when tapping speed...if you would ordinarily be able to run a 10 minute mile (depending on how much speed you are tapping) you can now run a 1 minute mile.  When finished running, you are still physically tired, short of breath, and thirsty like you usually would be...you've put the same amount of strain on your body that running a mile usually does...you've simply performed the same task in less time.  If you can ordinarily run 3 miles in an hour before falling down from exhaustion...when tapping speed...you would still be falling down from exhaustion after crossing 3 miles...you would simply have crossed those 3 miles in 10 minutes.

 

Does this make sense?  I have no idea if this is the real deal or not...it's just how I've always looked at it...

[Xaladin]

Oudeis, I know you said not to say this, but I think that this is one of the areas where some handwavium is involved. In the scene where Sazed is storing it, he notes that he is sluggish, which implies to me that he is putting forth the same effort, but he just. Can't. Move as fast. Like I said, sorry for saying it, but I believe this is an instance of handwavium. After all, it's magic...

The same thing happens with the Feruchemical weight issue. If you look at it scientifically, it really doesn't work that well.

An upvote for the use of the term "handwavium."

 

Edit (to avoid double posting): What is the cap for how fast a Feruchemist can tap Steel? I can see the ATP explanation working, but only if that cap isn't too high. Natural processes can only move so fast. If that cap is particularly high, then I am at a loss for a good explanation.

Hoidhunter's proposal sounds a little too universal, like it would also work for mental speed. I might just not be understanding, though.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Xaladin

[Frosted Flakes]

Curse you for bringing this up, because now it will nag me indefinitely until this is solved.

I generally think of it this way: tapping and storing steel metal minds does not store and use speed, per se. Rather, speed is an emergent trait of whatever bodily function or attribute that is being stored.

A lot of the examples you gave sound very plausible. But it's far easier to say, "Steel stores speed" than it is to say, "Steel stores the potential energy of several biological processes including, but not limited to, cellular respiration, ATP production, caloric reservoirs, etc, the sum of which results in apparent speed."

I know something similar was brought up with storing weight and the problems with mass that entailed. Since Feruchemy is not physically or biologically possible in the real world, you will eventually get to the point where a truly in depth examination of the magic ceases to be plausible and you just have to settle for the simple explation that it's magic.

I think Brandon has spoiled us in this regard. His magical systems have very concrete rules that they follow. Rules that mimic our real world physics to such a degree that when you finally encounter an unexplainable phenomenon you almost feel like you're missing something obvious and there's a perfectly logic explanation if you can only just figure it out...

Whenever something like tapping and storing steel starts nagging at me, I just remember the WoB that says Cosmere physics are identical to Earth physics in all regards except where Shardic or Spiritual influence alters them.

[Xaladin]

I know something similar was brought up with storing weight and the problems with mass that entailed. Since Feruchemy is not physically or biologically possible in the real world, you will eventually get to the point where a truly in depth examination of the magic ceases to be plausible and you just have to settle for the simple explation that it's magic.

 

Of course Quantum Physics is  magic...

This, right here, is the borderline between fantasy and fugue science fiction. When you can explain your magic to a level such that disproof requires more knowledge of physics than we currently have, it is no longer fantasy, but science fiction. If your magic breaks down under scrutiny, using tools we currently have ("currently" here means at the time of publishing: Jules Verne's "From the Earth to the Moon" definitely classifies as science fiction), then you have written fantasy, not science fiction.

 

The way I see Brandon's books is that they are fantasy, but much closer to science fiction than most other fantasy.

 

My concerns are of when/if Brandon attempts time travel (I sincerely hope he doesn't, because that is extremely difficult to pull off without holes in logic. I will be struck with some serious awe if he does time travel and gets away with it). By "time travel," I mean the ability to actually go back in time, not merely speeding up or slowing down time, which we are already convinced is possible thanks to Einstein.

Edited February 20, 2015 by Xaladin

[hoidhunter]

Now...I'm terrible at hunting down WoBs...so I'm not going to.  But...I believe that there is a WoB out there in regards to feruchemal speed where Brandon says that the upward limit of how fast a steel runner can go is created by wind resistance and friction.  I don't think that your body simply being super fuelled would account for the ability to move THAT fast. 

 

Now I know that you put a little disclaimer in your opening post asking for people to not use the explanation "it's magic"...but...it totally is.  I mean...how do your scientifically explain ANY feruchimal power?  Even the simple ones like bendalloy make no sense scientifically.  It literally turns your body into a black hole for food and drink.

Edited February 20, 2015 by hoidhunter

[Oudeis]

For the people saying "it just releases ATP faster" I've already talked about that... your body doesn't have an infinite amount of ATP. Hoidhunter: I know that you'd still feel the effort of traveling a mile, whether that mile takes you one minute or ten. I addressed that in my first post. What I'm saying is, the cost in metabolic energy to walk across a dominance is significantly more than the food Sazed took in. He should have starved to death. Why didn't he?

 

I get that there's some overlap in metals. Burning pewter allomantically makes your various body processes work overtime, which does have some healing effect, meaning it's a little overlapped with feruchemical gold. Cadmium changes your passage through time, so you use less food in an objective measurement, so yeah, there's a sense of overlap there. The difference is, that one makes sense. We don't have to say, "Well maybe it works like this, and then it works," we can just see "this is self-evidently and unimpeachably how it works". It's elegant, it all flows from an underlying principle, it's not a kludge tacked onto the side to try to justify a discrepancy.

 

Whoever said it above was right; I'm just spoiled. I'm used to Mr. Sanderson making sense, and it bugs me when he doesn't.

[Kipper]

Honestly, if you analyze all of the metals, none of them really make sense. But ultimately that's just because it's magic. Brandon is still the undisputed master of making magic systems believable. Come on, the vast fandom here proves that. The fact that we can theorize and have those theories confirmed means that we can look at things at least somewhat scientifically. Even so, looked at from the pure eye of science, no magic will ever completely make sense.

[Blaze1616]

Whoever said it above was right; I'm just spoiled. I'm used to Mr. Sanderson making sense, and it bugs me when he doesn't.

 

It bugs me too.

 

I've had a thought before that Feruchemical steel doesn't actually store "speed," but instead kinetic energy. To me, this sounds like a good set of questions for Brandon *coughChicagoSigningTodaycough* I can't really contribute further to this discussion, as I think we just don't have enough knowledge on the science behind Feruchemical steel yet (which is weird, given it's the fMetal we've seen the most other than Feruchemical tin).

[Kipper]

Hmm. Kinetic energy. Now that is interesting. That would seem to fit with Sazed feeling sluggish. Like he's putting forth the same effort but can't move as fast.

[Oudeis]

Honestly, if you analyze all of the metals, none of them really make sense. But ultimately that's just because it's magic.

 

I disagree wholeheartedly with everything you say here. Allomantic steel makes perfect sense. Feruchemical copper. I could go on. There are some metals that make a certain amount of sense but the specifics get a little fuzzy; you can say that about most branches of hard science in real life. You're bringing up the opposite of the point Frosted Flakes brings up. Basically, you're so used to magic being terrible that you don't bother checking to see if this one is mostly good. It really, really is. Steel is pretty unique in being one where rather than being a good, concrete system with a few fuzzy bits, it sorta doesn't really make a lot of apparent sense fundamentally.

 

It bugs me too.

 

I've had a thought before that Feruchemical steel doesn't actually store "speed," but instead kinetic energy. To me, this sounds like a good set of questions for Brandon *coughChicagoSigningTodaycough* I can't really contribute further to this discussion, as I think we just don't have enough knowledge on the science behind Feruchemical steel yet (which is weird, given it's the fMetal we've seen the most other than Feruchemical tin).

 

Interesting, but see my thing above. Wouldn't this mean that you can't store if you're not moving? Sazed was storing while sitting in one spot, occasionally moving an arm to spoon himself soup. Logically he'd've stored up about twelve seconds of moving double fast, if he was only storing the kinetic energy he'd otherwise produce. Not to mention, humans use metabolic energy to make kinetic energy. Again, shouldn't he be starving himself while storing? Does it mean any steel ferring has to starve to store up speed?

[Kipper]

Perhaps it stores Total Energy, rather than Potential or Kinetic.

That seems like a crack-pot assumption, though.

And Oudeis, I stand corrected about steel and iron, at least.

[Blaze1616]

Interesting, but see my thing above. Wouldn't this mean that you can't store if you're not moving? Sazed was storing while sitting in one spot, occasionally moving an arm to spoon himself soup. Logically he'd've stored up about twelve seconds of moving double fast, if he was only storing the kinetic energy he'd otherwise produce. Not to mention, humans use metabolic energy to make kinetic energy. Again, shouldn't he be starving himself while storing? Does it mean any steel ferring has to starve to store up speed?

 

Right, which is why I refrained from further discussion. As Snoopy notes, one possibility is that it stores both potential and kinetic, but the problem there is why, when tapping, can it only be used for speed?

 

It is possible that by sitting still, with no motion, a Feruchemist can store "speed" at its maximum rate. Or perhaps what Sazed is really doing is trying to flail his body around, but by storing he does not actually move. I forget if that scene of him storing just about everything was from his PoV or someone else's. If it was Sazed's PoV, it would be odd for it to not be brought up, if that were the case.

 

It is also possible that he's storing kinetic energy via the natural workings of the body, be it a cellular, molecular, or even atomic level. I find this highly unlikely though.

[Oudeis]

It is from his own POV, and gives us the best idea of what storing zinc feels like.

[Voidus]

No your body doesn't have infinite ATP but it recycles it, inputting caloric energy derived from metabolizing sugars and such, I was suggesting that all of these processes are sped up.

The other probably more likely possibility is that as was mentioned earlier it simply stores the contraction speed of fast twitch muscle fibres, which are anaerobic anyway so oxygen isn't required, and the energy comes from when storage takes place.

[Left]

Perhaps Speed is, as I think someone said, is like an armchair. The armchair sees itself as being all one thing, it's not a bunch of sticks of wood and cloth, it's "I am a chair". So when you store speed, your storing the Cognitive Speed, which is the sum of all the parts of speed-energy, perception time and reaction time, bodily metabolization,etc. In effect, I think that it is like a mini speed buble, but in "reality" haha, it is different.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if that's how most of Feruchemy worked.

If any of that was coherent, that's pretty cool

 

EDIT: sigh......

Edited February 21, 2015 by LeftVash

[Oudeis]

No your body doesn't have infinite ATP but it recycles it, inputting caloric energy derived from metabolizing sugars and such, I was suggesting that all of these processes are sped up.

 

You keep saying the same thing, and I keep pointing out the flaw, and then you keep explaining the exact same thing again, like the issue is that I don't understand you well enough.

 

Your body cannot "metabolize sugars and such" that you don't eat. Sazed crossed, I dunno, hundreds of miles, and he did it without eating enough food to power the process of recycling your ATP. However fast your body digests food, it can't digest food you don't eat.

[Voidus]

You keep saying the same thing, and I keep pointing out the flaw, and then you keep explaining the exact same thing again, like the issue is that I don't understand you well enough.

 

Your body cannot "metabolize sugars and such" that you don't eat. Sazed crossed, I dunno, hundreds of miles, and he did it without eating enough food to power the process of recycling your ATP. However fast your body digests food, it can't digest food you don't eat.

No I'm not, I'm pointing out the issue with your reply then suggesting alternatives in addition to the original claim. The body does also have a caloric storage method, but I am inclined to agree that this one example at least does seem not to conform to that idea, hence why I keep suggesting alternatives. And given that your very first reply started with misunderstanding what I said I don't think I'd be entirely unfounded even if that was what I was doing.

[Frosted Flakes]

You keep saying the same thing, and I keep pointing out the flaw, and then you keep explaining the exact same thing again, like the issue is that I don't understand you well enough.

Your body cannot "metabolize sugars and such" that you don't eat. Sazed crossed, I dunno, hundreds of miles, and he did it without eating enough food to power the process of recycling your ATP. However fast your body digests food, it can't digest food you don't eat.

I may be mistaken, but didn't Sazed store weight while he tapped speed? I doubt it's enough to explain how he was able to move so far without proper nourishment, but it at least almost mitigates the inconsistency. After all, it takes less energy to move 20 pounds than it does to move 200. I can't speak intelligently about biology, but if everything scales then moving 20 pounds a distance of 200 miles requires about as much effort as moving 200 pounds 20 miles - a feat easily, if uncomfortably, accomplished by a moderately athletic person.