Redshift?

[Ryan]

Would a time bubble affect the flux of photons into the bubble? I'm not sure it would. I know certain materials affect the speed of light, but I don't know if gravitational redshift does. I think the change in wavelengths would compensate for the time change, instead of a change in flow rate. Otherwise you'd get a buildup of photons on the surface of the bubble, which really would cook the caster when he lets the bubble go (depending on how long he held it, that is).

As for cooking people with a flashlight, I don't think it works that way. The energies are too low. You might give them radiation sickness if you hold the beam on them long enough, but I'm not even sure of that. Especially depending on how conservation of energy works with this magic system. If the allomancer imparts no energy to photons entering and leaving, then the intensity (amplitude, I think?) of the radiation from your flashlight will decrease in order to compensate for the shortening of the wavelength.

Radiation exposure in direct sunlight might be a problem for the allomancer, though. You might find that cancer rates are much higher among bendalloy mistings...

Vision in different spectra would give you all sorts of cool abilities, though. You'd be a great doctor, provided you had a source of x-rays to shine through people...

[Eerongal]

Would a time bubble affect the flux of photons into the bubble? I'm not sure it would. I know certain materials affect the speed of light, but I don't know if gravitational redshift does. I think the change in wavelengths would compensate for the time change, instead of a change in flow rate. Otherwise you'd get a buildup of photons on the surface of the bubble, which really would cook the caster when he lets the bubble go (depending on how long he held it, that is).

Im pretty sure gravity affects the speed of light near it, thus why a black hole is capable of sucking in all the light after the event horizon. I know the closer an object emitting light is to the event horizon, the longer it takes photons to reach an observer, which is the cause of the gravitational redshift, which i think means it is indeed slowing down the light. I could be horribly wrong, though!

[Zas678]

Magic + Science = Awesome. It's official.

[happyman]

Would a time bubble affect the flux of photons into the bubble?

Yes.  And as someone who has actually studied Quantum Field Theory and Quantum Electrodynamics, I can state with certainty that the way the average layman understands the term photons is incredibly misleading. (Not quantum mechanics fault.  It's a hard science to learn, and demands a high tolerance for abstract mathematics.  But one side effect is people thinking they know more than they do.)  For this problem, in this context, it's much better to think of the radiation as consisting of waves and fields.  "Photons" are just a distraction; they are quantized excitations of the electromagnetic field, which show up primarily as expansion terms in Feynmann diagrams.  Which tells you nothing, I know.  It's not my fault.

I'm not sure it would. I know certain materials affect the speed of light, but I don't know if gravitational redshift does. I think the change in wavelengths would compensate for the time change, instead of a change in flow rate. Otherwise you'd get a buildup of photons on the surface of the bubble, which really would cook the caster when he lets the bubble go (depending on how long he held it, that is).

I know just enough about general relativity to know that what Gravitational Redshift affects is the time and space that the wave is travelling through, which in turn changes both the intensity and wavelength of the resulting wave.  The change in wavelength would compensate for any time changes, but only by also changing the intensity of the light.  That's where the frying and freezing effects come from, and yes, they would be real as far as I know.

As for cooking people with a flashlight, I don't think it works that way. The energies are too low. You might give them radiation sickness if you hold the beam on them long enough, but I'm not even sure of that.

No, this makes sense.  See, if you imagine a bubble of sped-up time, and you have a flashlight inside it, you could leave your flashlight on for something like twelve hours.  All of that energy would enter the outside world all in a much shorter burst, resulting in much higher power (but same total energy) at a much shorter wavelength.  It all hangs together.  This result depends on conservation of energy to get right, in fact.

Especially depending on how conservation of energy works with this magic system. If the allomancer imparts no energy to photons entering and leaving, then the intensity (amplitude, I think?) of the radiation from your flashlight will decrease in order to compensate for the shortening of the wavelength.

Assuming conservation of energy, it works the other way.  All of the nice, calm low-frequency energy in the short wavelengths would be built up in the boundary, and come out as high-frequency, high-intensity radiation.  Hence the frying.

I would like to note in passing that global conservation of energy is actually broken in general relativity, though, so I'm not sure how much of this applies.  We've been assuming conservation of energy so far, but it isn't a complete absolute.  (Violations of said law do us no good whatsoever, unfortunately.  Energy is always conserved locally; it's just that there is no global way for the book-keeping to balance.  To get a significant change, you need to be near a black hole or wait the lifetime of the universe.)

[Ryan]

I bow to your superior knowledge of the subject.

However, I did think of another effect that hasn't been mentioned. Namely, that nobody's mentioned the effect of stuff inside the bubble on shifted radiation. For example, let's say a bubble is created that shifts visible light into the microwave range. This would pass through the allomancer, perhaps getting slightly scattered and absorbed, then get shifted back up on the other side of the bubble. This would turn the allomancer into a blurry shadow from the perspective of outside observers.

Also, a shift of visible into x-ray would let people see the allomancer's bones, perhaps in technicolor. Slight shifts would change colors observed in the bubble, since for example if the allomancer is wearing a red shirt, and green light gets shifted down to red, then the shifted green light will be what the shirt reflects, changing its color to green for outside observers.

[happyman]

I bow to your superior knowledge of the subject.

However, I did think of another effect that hasn't been mentioned. Namely, that nobody's mentioned the effect of stuff inside the bubble on shifted radiation. For example, let's say a bubble is created that shifts visible light into the microwave range. This would pass through the allomancer, perhaps getting slightly scattered and absorbed, then get shifted back up on the other side of the bubble. This would turn the allomancer into a blurry shadow from the perspective of outside observers.

Also, a shift of visible into x-ray would let people see the allomancer's bones, perhaps in technicolor. Slight shifts would change colors observed in the bubble, since for example if the allomancer is wearing a red shirt, and green light gets shifted down to red, then the shifted green light will be what the shirt reflects, changing its color to green for outside observers.

Yes, this is all true. If you slow time down in a bubble, normal light would become microwaves or radio waves, which would interact in odd ways with the allomancer. Going the other way, you could give yourself an x-ray just by standing outside! Kinda cool. Not how the magic system should really work, though, I say.

[CrazyRioter]

yeah, I suspect it's going to end up based on the Hollywood version of science rather then hard physics.

Not that this is a bad thing necessarily, it's fantasy, so it plays fast and loose with science anyway. Just as long as it only breaks science in the ways necessary to make a cool story.

[happyman]

Actually, that's the reason real science is so hard. None of the intended effects are easy to achieve without balancing a lot of unintended side effects. Probably the only "real" difference between our magic system (i.e. science) and fantasy magic is that the effects of magic are more useful in their raw form.

[SOM1else]

This isn't really redshift related but you guys seem like you would know the answer to this question, would the effects of cadmium/bendalloy compress? for example if your burning bendalloy and in the AoE someone else burns it also then would time be the same as if just one person was burning it or would it be doubled or would it be an exponential increase in the passage of time.

[happyman]

This isn't really redshift related but you guys seem like you would know the answer to this question, would the effects of cadmium/bendalloy compress? for example if your burning bendalloy and in the AoE someone else burns it also then would time be the same as if just one person was burning it or would it be doubled or would it be an exponential increase in the passage of time.

Not a clue. Without a detailed theory, things like this are hard to manage.

[KChan]

Since Copperclouds are stackable, I would find it reasonable to believe that Cadmium and Bendalloy are as well. I don't know how much the effect would stack, but I think it would be there in some amount.

[Bad platypus]

Larry Niven deals with exactly these types of issues in a SciFi setting in his short story ARM.

[happyman]

Larry Niven deals with exactly these types of issues in a SciFi setting in his short story ARM.

Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten about those stories. They're a pretty good example of trying to work out all the side effects of something like that. Though Niven did include the caveat that light-speed became slower if you sped up time, which probably isn't something Brandon would go for.

[Asha'man Logain]

Oh, yeah, I'd forgotten about those stories. They're a pretty good example of trying to work out all the side effects of something like that. Though Niven did include the caveat that light-speed became slower if you sped up time, which probably isn't something Brandon would go for.

Well we have been able to slow light down to 38 MPH www.jupiterscientific.org/sciinfo/slowlight.html so it is entirely possible that the edge of the bubble has a physical effect as well as a temporal one.

[Aashyma]

So. does this mean that you could make out if someone's burning cadmium/bendalloy by the difference in colours outside and inside the bubble?

[Zas678]

My question- how could you use this, plus presumably other allomancers/feruchemists to create FTL transportation? Brandon said it was possible, and I am trying to figure out how. Maybe a Iron Cheming increases his weight a massive amount, a Iron Misting pushes on some engine, and a Cadmium bubble keeps this happening faster than real time? Except that the bubble is stationary.

Hmm. Unless the bubble is stationary to the person's gravity placement (like time manipulators in OSC's Pathfinder). Yeah. The "spiritual" connection that connects a person to the planet also ties their bubble to them. So, if they had a new gravity, the bubble would stay there too.

Maybe a Chromium push on a handful of Cadmium burners lets it happen. That be amazingly expensive though. Especially considering how much it already costs to get a ship up in space and propel it places.

[Ryan]

I thought I'd note, since people are still posting in this topic, that, based on my reading of the sample chapters in Alloy of Law, Brandon has decided to avoid this issue entirely. So, canonically, redshifting does not occur.

As for FTL, that probably deserves its own topic.