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Were you on the TOR Re-read? We had a Sebarial-is-a-proto-Radiant debate a week or two ago. I definitely think it has merit, especially given that he obviously isn't conforming to Alethi social structure. (He has a dark-eyed mistress, for starters) So he's at the very least, not hung up on what a lot of people are considering important and judging people based on who, not what, they are. I don't know about Bondsmiths, their oaths appear to be about uniting, and Sebarial's not what I'd consider a unifying force, at this point. I've been thinking willshapers because this quote seems to describe him to a T:

“And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiance, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, 'capricious, frustrating, unreliable,' as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.”

He's definitely enterprising - look at all he's set up economically in the warcamps. And everyone else would certainly describe him as capricious, frustrating, and unreliable.  I don't know about love of adventure, but certainly novelty or oddity.

Edited by Shlee
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Sebarial is my favorite character to date in the Cosmere. I think that he is a likely candidate for Radiance, though I've heard the idea posited that it could be Palona, as well. This could be intriguing because of her being a darkeyes, and I think it could have some interesting story-driving potential... For instance, Dalinar spends a book trying to prove that Sebarial is a KR, but in the end it turns out to be Palona instead.

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Shlee, on 05 Feb 2015 - 6:53 PM, said:

    Were you on the TOR Re-read? We had a Sebarial-is-a-proto-Radiant debate a week or two ago. I definitely think it has merit, especially given that he obviously isn't conforming to Alethi social structure. (He has a dark-eyed mistress, for starters) So he's at the very least, not hung up on what a lot of people are considering important and judging people based on who, not what, they are. I don't know about Bondsmiths, their oaths appear to be about uniting, and Sebarial's not what I'd consider a unifying force, at this point. I've been thinking willshapers because this quote seems to describe him to a T:

    He's definitely enterprising - look at all he's set up economically in the warcamps. And everyone else would certainly describe him as capricious, frustrating, and unreliable.  I don't know about love of adventure, but certainly novelty or oddity.

I was going to put this in a spoiler tag, but my computer doesn't agree with these types of things.

Anyway, for the reference, the "debate" Shlee mentioned is in posts 50s-60s of

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2015/01/words-of-radiance-reread-chapter-25

Edit: Sebarial is one of my favorite characters, so I hope we see more of him, even if he doesn't become a Radiant.

Edit 2: Wow 17th Shard really hates IE!

I had to switch to firefox to do this (quotes and spoilers)!

Edited by Xaladin
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Were you on the TOR Re-read? We had a Sebarial-is-a-proto-Radiant debate a week or two ago. I definitely think it has merit, especially given that he obviously isn't conforming to Alethi social structure. (He has a dark-eyed mistress, for starters) So he's at the very least, not hung up on what a lot of people are considering important and judging people based on who, not what, they are. I don't know about Bondsmiths, their oaths appear to be about uniting, and Sebarial's not what I'd consider a unifying force, at this point. I've been thinking willshapers because this quote seems to describe him to a T:

 

He's definitely enterprising - look at all he's set up economically in the warcamps. And everyone else would certainly describe him as capricious, frustrating, and unreliable.  I don't know about love of adventure, but certainly novelty or oddity.

 

No, I don't partake in re-reads. As for him being a Willshaper, it is possible (my main theory was that he would be a Radiant, and I tacked on the Bondsmith and Cultivation bits to add flair and spark discussion), but I don't like that Willshaper passage, though I understand it is all we have. The passage very clearly states that the description of "capricious, frustrating, unreliable" was probably an intolerable view that most do not share. It then goes on to state that the Order is the "most varied," and the only binding qualities are love of adventure, novelty, and oddity. So essentially all that passage says is that anybody can be a Willshaper so long as they enjoy adventuring, novelties, and oddities. That is one big umbrella that a lot of people could fall under...

 

As for Sebarial being a uniting force, when he stays out in the Highstorm eating grapes while Palona reads (which is my favorite scene in the whole book), he just took control of, and commanded with success, the entirety of the Alethi army that was at the plains. And thanks to him everyone gets to Uritiru safely. Even if you don't consider that unifying though, Sebarial's warcamp itself is a testament to his unifying power, something I touched on in the OP. The Herdazians even came together to form Little Herdaz in his camp.

 

As an aside, I am curious what makes you think Bondsmiths are unifying in nature? The epigraph dealing with them just says they usually sit on Uritiru's thrones, not that they unify in any particular way. Dalinar, though he does unify his army via each soldier's loyalty to him, I would argue this is no more than what Sebarial has shown.

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No, I don't partake in re-reads. As for him being a Willshaper, it is possible (my main theory was that he would be a Radiant, and I tacked on the Bondsmith and Cultivation bits to add flair and spark discussion), but I don't like that Willshaper passage, though I understand it is all we have. The passage very clearly states that the description of "capricious, frustrating, unreliable" was probably an intolerable view that most do not share. It then goes on to state that the Order is the "most varied," and the only binding qualities are love of adventure, novelty, and oddity. So essentially all that passage says is that anybody can be a Willshaper so long as they enjoy adventuring, novelties, and oddities. That is one big umbrella that a lot of people could fall under...

 

As for Sebarial being a uniting force, when he stays out in the Highstorm eating grapes while Palona reads (which is my favorite scene in the whole book), he just took control of, and commanded with success, the entirety of the Alethi army that was at the plains. And thanks to him everyone gets to Uritiru safely. Even if you don't consider that unifying though, Sebarial's warcamp itself is a testament to his unifying power, something I touched on in the OP. The Herdazians even came together to form Little Herdaz in his camp.

 

As an aside, I am curious what makes you think Bondsmiths are unifying in nature? The epigraph dealing with them just says they usually sit on Uritiru's thrones, not that they unify in any particular way. Dalinar, though he does unify his army via each soldier's loyalty to him, I would argue this is no more than what Sebarial has shown.

Understood :)  I agree that he's a good radiant candidate, and as I posted on the reread, I would love to hear him say the first oath with his stereotypical irreverence/snark. I read the quote about capricious as many people would think that about members of that order, but I can see your interpretation also. I think it's interesting that in reality, Sebarial is not actually most of those things to people that really know him but appears that way to everyone else. I just think it fits him better than any other order, but that of course, is personal opinion. 

 

Now I'm going to nitpick  -_- Not the entire Alethi army, merely the one who lost their Highprince (Roion). and of course his own (which is actually being led by someone assigned by Dalinar). Aladar does his own, as does Dalinar. And he doesn't do it personally, as I think a bondsmith would have done, but rather assigns people to do it while he watches from the background, as is his style. Hence him lounging and eating grapes. As to the Herdazians, it also says that the Herdazians "didn't pay much attention to that" which tells me that they don't really care who's camp it's in, they just stick together. Probably wouldn't be able to get away with it in Dalinar's warcamp, which is much more regulated, but any of the more lax ones would probably be just fine. And we know Sebarial is quite tolerant of things outside "normal Alethi culture"  But I don't think he encouraged them to set up Little Herdaz there. 

 

As for Bondsmiths being unifying in nature, it is their oath:

“Fortunately,” Dalinar said, “I know the second oath I am to make. I don’t need to be told it. I will unite instead of divide, Stormfather. I will bring men together.” - WoR Chapter 89

To me, this is the biggest knock against Sebarial being a Bondsmith - we have multiple examples of him keeping people at arms length, intentionally antagonizing, and generally being aggravating - not things that usually contribute to unity. He likes to do things purely for shock value as well. But I do think that the fact that he's a good person hidden under all that snark and that he voluntarily shows up to go on the expedition with Dalinar....he's got a lot of positive things going for him. I can easily see him being a Radiant, although at this point we know nothing of his past.

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As for Bondsmiths being unifying in nature, it is their oath:

To me, this is the biggest knock against Sebarial being a Bondsmith - we have multiple examples of him keeping people at arms length, intentionally antagonizing, and generally being aggravating - not things that usually contribute to unity. He likes to do things purely for shock value as well. But I do think that the fact that he's a good person hidden under all that snark and that he voluntarily shows up to go on the expedition with Dalinar....he's got a lot of positive things going for him. I can easily see him being a Radiant, although at this point we know nothing of his past.

 

You bring up a good point (I didn't even look at the oath :wacko: ). Luckily, the oaths aren't set in stone, they're able to fluctuate from Radiant to Radiant, though I know the message must stay the same. It is interesting to note, though, that Sebarial does unify everyone in their annoyance of him ;) .

 

Also, to nitpick your nitpick, delegation is a very strong technique used by many. Sebarial delegating others to gather the armies on the Oathgate plateau is still good leadership, so I personally wouldn't say a Bondsmith would "do it himself." That's the difference between Sebarial and Dalinar, and to me they represent two sides of the Bondsmith coin/triangle.

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I could definitely get behind Sebariel as a Willshaper. Notably, their attributes are "Resolute/Builder". While vague, I definitely could get behind Sebariel as a "builder"... assuming that's what that even means. Might be the Willshapers have this thing going on where they chase their dreams and ultimately realize them. Kalak was apparently the one who taught people to work with metal every Desolation, which fits with Sebariel building up his warcamp to be an economic powerhouse.

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I could definitely get behind Sebariel as a Willshaper. Notably, their attributes are "Resolute/Builder". While vague, I definitely could get behind Sebariel as a "builder"... assuming that's what that even means. Might be the Willshapers have this thing going on where they chase their dreams and ultimately realize them. Kalak was apparently the one who taught people to work with metal every Desolation, which fits with Sebariel building up his warcamp to be an economic powerhouse.

 

Could you source your Willshapers having the attribute Resolute/Builder? All I can find about them is the epigraph Schlee posted. Outside of calling them "enterprising," which I think we all agree fits Sebarial, I don't see anything about Resolute/Builder.

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Could you source your Willshapers having the attribute Resolute/Builder? All I can find about them is the epigraph Schlee posted. Outside of calling them "enterprising," which I think we all agree fits Sebarial, I don't see anything about Resolute/Builder.

 

The chart with this information is found in the Ars Arcanum. Here it is on the Coppermind.

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Oh! Okay. It never occured to me to check there. All right, I concede. I like Sebarial the Willshaper better than Sebarial the Bondsmith.

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Hmm, some really good theorising here... but one question: why here and not the general SA forum...?

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Hmm, some really good theorising here... but one question: why here and not the general SA forum...?

 

It's called Cosmere Theories...couldn't be more simple if they tried. Also, in this Cosmere Theories forum spoiler tags are not required, in the event that cross-world speculation arises (which happens quite often). In addition, the way I've come to understand the organization of this site is that the individual series forums are for more general discussions, and not the in-depth discussions that often happen here.

 

To be more blunt, though, if cosmere related theories were posted in their individual forums, what would be the point of having a Cosmere Theories forum in the first place?

 

Perhaps I've misunderstood your question?

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This thread got me thinking.  We need to look at the Chapter Headings.  Chapter 40, "Palona" has Kalak and Vedel as the Heralds.  This is the first chapter where Sebarial's actual organization is revealed and Palona is introduced.

 

This doesn't hold for Chapter 86, "Patterns of Light", but there are some many things going on in that chapter... (I think the Heralds are for Kaladin and Szeth).  

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I think Sebarial could be a fun Willshaper, but I'm wishing he could be an Elsecaller. We need a Wise and Careful Radiant who isn't so grumpy all the time. ;)

Also, I hope Palona is a Herald. I think Battar might be wise and careful enough to procure a false identity.

Edit: I reread the chapter where Palona is introduced, and it appears that she's Herdazian. This sort of makes the Palona is Battar theory a bit less likely. On the bright side, that chapter also has Sebarial talking about being "careful" under two separate contexts, and also about the wisdom of his decisions as highprince, so he still might be a proto-Elsecaller. :D
 

To be more blunt, though, if cosmere related theories were posted in their individual forums, what would be the point of having a Cosmere Theories forum in the first place?

Some theories are about stuff affecting multiple Shardworlds, like Odium's pre-Roshar shenanigans, the relationship between Shards in general, the Three Realms, Shardworlds in general and other astronomical bodies in the Cosmere, Investiture, Hoid and other Worldhoppers, Adonalsium... those stuff might not fit in a specific series forum, so they go here. Collected Words of Brandon also go here sometimes if they contain stuff about multiple series and they aren't from a single event (there's an Events forum for individual events).

I personally prefer posting my series-specific theories in their proper series forum. But hey, as long as the mods don't complain, feel free to post what you want. :)

Disclaimer: I am not a mod. Following my advice regarding forum behavior may or may not get you reprimanded, downvoted, banhammered, or used as a Hemalurgic victim by the mods and admins of the 17th Shard.

Edited by skaa
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It's called Cosmere Theories...couldn't be more simple if they tried. Also, in this Cosmere Theories forum spoiler tags are not required, in the event that cross-world speculation arises (which happens quite often). In addition, the way I've come to understand the organization of this site is that the individual series forums are for more general discussions, and not the in-depth discussions that often happen here.

 

To be more blunt, though, if cosmere related theories were posted in their individual forums, what would be the point of having a Cosmere Theories forum in the first place?

 

Perhaps I've misunderstood your question?

 

I don't actually visit this particular forum too often and I'm probably not the only one. If it wasn't down to luck that I decided to check it out the previous time I would probably missed you theory, which is a shame since it's a good one. I think you'd get more responses to your theory on the SA forum.

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I don't actually visit this particular forum too often and I'm probably not the only one. If it wasn't down to luck that I decided to check it out the previous time I would probably missed you theory, which is a shame since it's a good one. I think you'd get more responses to your theory on the SA forum.

 

That is regrettable to hear, as most of the best theories are found in this forum.

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I'm going to randomly chime in, because I've been thinking about this for a bit now, and two factoids from the series just suddenly jumped out at me.

 

1) Ryshadium choose Radiants; "Radiants had Ryshadium" is the exact quote, which implies that a Ryshadium horse is willing to choose an individual engaged in a Nahel bond, if not a candidate for one.

 

2) Dalinar and Adolin were both chosen by Ryshadium, but so was Highprince Hatham. (p348 hardback)  This is a character who qualifies as our Peter-teased potential Radiant, having had little screen time, but for some reason was deemed worthy of a mount that was exclusively(?) for Radiants.  He's also the person I'll double-down on, now, rather than other minor characters.  What I'd really like to know is if Peter guessed the Order correctly too. :P

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I'm going to randomly chime in, because I've been thinking about this for a bit now, and two factoids from the series just suddenly jumped out at me.

 

1) Ryshadium choose Radiants; "Radiants had Ryshadium" is the exact quote, which implies that a Ryshadium horse is willing to choose an individual engaged in a Nahel bond, if not a candidate for one.

 

2) Dalinar and Adolin were both chosen by Ryshadium, but so was Highprince Hatham. (p348 hardback)  This is a character who qualifies as our Peter-teased potential Radiant, having had little screen time, but for some reason was deemed worthy of a mount that was exclusively(?) for Radiants.  He's also the person I'll double-down on, now, rather than other minor characters.  What I'd really like to know is if Peter guessed the Order correctly too. :P

 

Though we do know that Rhyshadium pick their rider, to my knowledge there is nothing saying that Rhyshadium only pick Radiants. In fact, given how relatively common Rhyshadium seem to be in the novels, statistically speaking it was bound to happen. I say relatively common because they obviously aren't common, yet we've seen more than three in the novels, if I recall correctly.

 

That, however, is a discussion for a different thread. I would be happy to follow into a new topic though, if you'd like to make one.

 

Edit: I didn't mean that last bit rudely. I'm just trying to cut back on how often I derail threads. I always feel guilty about it.

Edited by Blaze1616
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The passage very clearly states that the description of "capricious, frustrating, unreliable" was probably an intolerable view that most do not share.

 

Um actually, it says the exact opposite of that.  "and Invia wrote of them, 'capricious, frustrating, unreliable,' as taking it for granted that others would agree".  Invia used those adjectives with the assumption that others would agree; in other words, this was a common feeling at the time.

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Um actually, it says the exact opposite of that.  "and Invia wrote of them, 'capricious, frustrating, unreliable,' as taking it for granted that others would agree".  Invia used those adjectives with the assumption that others would agree; in other words, this was a common feeling at the time.

 

I've never seen that phrase used that way. I've only ever seen that phrase used when the speaker means "you assumed, but you assumed wrong."

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I have seen it used that way occasionally.

From what I remember of the quotes from the in-world Words of Radiance the book seems almost written in a format of recounting things people have told the author during the interviews they conducted for research. Essentially a record of words and information spoken regarding the Radiants, hence the title.

Which is why I doubt they would quote one of their validated sources of information just to imply they are wrong. It undermines the authority and trustworthiness of anything else this Invia person has probably said elsewhere in the surrounding text. You don't write a research paper recounting the information gathering process while sounding like you know the answers and making your sources look bad, that just looks unprofessional.

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You don't write a research paper recounting the information gathering process while sounding like you know the answers and making your sources look bad, that just looks unprofessional.

 

That...isn't true at all. The goal of a research paper is to have infallible sources. Upon discovering that that is likely not going to happen, you do point out flaws so the person reading understands you know what you're talking about. You are also expected to find and use sources with minimal flaws in them. This is even more true when it comes to "English" essays, which is what the wording of the text suggests to me Words of Radiance is.

 

To provide an example, when writing a paper about dinosaurs, unless I have intentional need to include it, I would never use a Creationist's article that claims the dinos never existed.

 

But if I were to write an article about Scrubs, my favorite television show, my dislike for Carla would likely bleed through. Anyone trying to use my article as a source would need to be aware of such a bias, and potentially need to point it out in their essay.

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There are honestly better ways to point out a flawed piece of information than to quote someone saying something that seems obvious to them ironically, in my opinion. By my book if I can't imagine Pattern understanding the essay on his first readthrough before he learns about sarcasm you're not explaining well enough. All you had to do is point out the more reliable sources that discredit Invia on this point really.

Sure, it probably continues with the train of thought after this and the author might explain themselves, but if that line alone makes it into the epigraph it's probably the only part of the cropped paragraph that mattered. If Invia is wrong why is BS even telling us this? All of the other epigraphs mean what they say.

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There are honestly better ways to point out a flawed piece of information than to quote someone saying something that seems obvious to them ironically, in my opinion. By my book if I can't imagine Pattern understanding the essay on his first readthrough before he learns about sarcasm you're not explaining well enough. All you had to do is point out the more reliable sources that discredit Invia on this point really.

Sure, it probably continues with the train of thought after this and the author might explain themselves, but if that line alone makes it into the epigraph it's probably the only part of the cropped paragraph that mattered. If Invia is wrong why is BS even telling us this? All of the other epigraphs mean what they say.

 

I would argue this paragraph means what it says as well, as in here is a scholar's opinion, though it was biased and portions were wrong. Obviously there are multiple ways to interperet it though :)

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