WoBs from Steel Ministry

[skaa]

So, I've been Googling for stuff about the Polestones earlier today when I stumbled upon this post by Phantom Monstrosity:

 

 

-Deep brown topaz is the best color for soulcasting
-Smokestone is black smoky quartz.

 

 

 

I remember that someone here has already posted about smokestone being smoky quartz a long time ago, but the information about the best color for topaz is something new to me. Note that this post isn't on the 17th Shard forums (Phantom is no longer active here), but rather on the site called Steel Ministry, which appears to be a MAG site.

 

Then I noticed the title of that thread: "Stuff we've learned from Brandon Firsthand". I immediately went to the thread's first page, and saw these gems:

 

Q: Why (as Denth said) was the name "Vasher" a joke?
A: Vasher "borrowed" it from someone who died, for ...reasons... Denth is not amused by it.

Q: Vasher is not the best of swordsmen in Warbreaker, but he is a bonafide sword-master in Words of Radiance. Expound?
A: Basically, Vasher is a much better swordsman than Warbreaker makes him out to be, but by that point he is centuries old and worn out and tired of fighting, plus he's had Nightblood for a long time so hasn't needed to keep his sword-fighting skills sharp. In WoR, he no longer has Nightblood, and has had to rely on what he's good at to make a living, and fighting happens to be something he is good at.

Q: Why are shardblades unnaturally light and Nightblood unnaturally heavy?
A: (I feel) he didn't really answer it directly, but basically it's because Nightblood is basically what Shardblades would be if they were "broken." It has to do why Nightblood leaks black smoke that falls down, as opposed to white mist that floats up, and things like this. They are built on the same principles, but in some ways opposites.

Q: Hoid in Shadows for Silence and/or Sixth of Dusk?
A: Hoid is not in either. He has paid a visit to Threnody, it is interesting to him for certain reasons, but he has never been to (I think he called the planet) "First of the Sun." Brandon decided he wouldn't put him in a book unless Hoid was there actively doing -something-, or in other words, Hoid isn't there just to make cameos.

Q: In Hero of Ages, when Elend was testing the mistfallen, why didn't he find any mistborn?
A: Preservation was trying to send a message, so the number 16 is important to him (Preservation)- one for each of the misting types. If he had made mistborn, that would have been 17. Plus, it would have been much harder to make them mistborn as opposed to mistings. Basically (and this was the highlight of the signing for me), the Mists weren't just snapping un-snapped mistings, they were investing people with Allomancy. None of them would have been able to be mistings without the mists intervening.

 

 

 

This was posted by Herowannabe, also a Sharder (and still active, it seems). Kurkistan and Kadrok, both active Sharders, are also members of Steel Ministry, it seems, and were participating in that thread.

 

Phantom also posted WoBs written on his copy of Firefight:

 

***

Q: Could you steal any trait hemalurgically that can be stored feruchemically?

A: Yes you could steal any trait that could be stored.

 

Q: How many Breaths would be fair to turn a mistwraith into kandra-ish?

A: Turning a mistwraith into a kandra would be hard with Breath. It doesn't give [a word I couldn't make out; sentience?].

 

***

 

I think that's all the WoBs in that thread, though there's also a WoP that the blue-colored garnet in WoK was a typo.

 

Anyway, I guess I can understand that Herowannabe, etc. were too busy to post these things here, but it's still a shame to let WoBs there go unshared. I'll try to visit Steel Ministry every now and then (even though I'm not into role-playing) just to see if there are new WoBs there, then post them in this thread for everyone to see. Of course, the Sharders who are also Steel Ministry members may also post new stuff here if they want.

 

That is all for now.

Edited February 1, 2015 by skaa

[WeiryWriter]

Yeah Kurkistan did message me about these, so I could add them to the database, but I wanted to wait until the audio was posted so we could get verbatim stuff.

[Kurkistan]

I'd been waiting on Hero or Phantom to post the WoBs here so as not to steal their thunder; no harm meant on my part by not posting them immediately.

[Moogle]

Nice stuff.

• Brown for topaz should be expected with Stonewards having tan eyes, though darker brown is not quite what I expected.
• Smokestone being black nearly-confirms that Skybreakers will have grey eyes. (Was Taravangian descended from one, I wonder?)
• Mists actively Investing people is nice to have clear confirmation on. I forget if that was the conclusion of a round of speculation between Tempus and me, but I've sort of been taking this as all-but-confirmed for a while thanks to statistics.
• The "Hemalurgy can steal traits" directly contradicts a WoB - Brandon claims you couldn't use Hemalurgy to remove memories like Awakening can do, but storing memories is a Feruchemical thing. May want to re-check that with him. I am reasonably confident you can steal memories with Hemalurgy, given the conflicting information, though.
• Breath wouldn't work on mistwraiths, but would it work on listeners? I would guess the answer is 'no', because you could use Hemalurgic spikes to make a new listener form, but it's uncertain if listeners suffer from the same Cognitive block that the mistwraiths do.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan]

• The "Hemalurgy can steal traits" directly contradicts a WoB - Brandon claims you couldn't use Hemalurgy to remove memories like Awakening can do, but storing memories is a Feruchemical thing. May want to re-check that with him. I am reasonably confident you can steal memories with Hemalurgy, given the conflicting information, though.

 

I'm having trouble re-finding the WoB, but wasn't it a bit more nuanced than that? I seem to recall that the question was about altering memories, rather than stealing them wholesale. Also I would think it fair for Brandon to say something to the effect of "you can't use Hemalurgy to alter memories like Vasher did" with an implicit understanding that "like Vasher did" means not doing massive amounts of incidental damage.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

I'm having trouble re-finding the WoB, but wasn't it a bit more nuanced than that? I seem to recall that the question was about altering memories, rather than stealing them wholesale. Also I would think it fair for Brandon to say something to the effect of "you can't use Hemalurgy to alter memories like Vasher did" with an implicit understanding that "like Vasher did" means not doing massive amounts of incidental damage.

 

Here is the WoB:

ccstat: In Warbreaker, Vasher uses Awakening to modify the memories of a girl they rescue. Can skillful/careful Hemalurgy accomplish the same thing?

A. [long pause] No, I don't really think that it can. Nobody has asked that before, but just looking at the way the magics work, I don't think that is something that Hemalurgy is capable of doing.

(source)

 

I don't feel he's saying "you can do it with massive side effects". He seems pretty confident here that it's a solid "no, Hemalurgy is not capable of something like that".

 

I suppose the true question is what Vasher did with the girl exactly. I've been thinking he just removed the memories of her captivity. If the girl had her memories directly altered so she remembered something like taking a trip with her uncle somewhere for the last while, though, as in like a Forgery could do, I'd accept that Hemalurgy can't do that. I doubt a little girl is capable of Awakening that precisely on only one Breath, but then I guess we don't know how difficult the visualization would be. I feel like just directly removing the memory would be the easiest to visualize.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Moogle

[Kurkistan]

Thanks for the WoB.

 

I'm still pretty much okay with things as they are, though. We've known since forever that copper Hemalurgic spikes steal intelligence/memory (this based on the MAG, granted, but I think it can be trusted not to have just made up the Hemalurgic use of a metal out of whole cloth). Perhaps it's just the case that no matter how skillful the Hemalurgist, you just can't get granular enough to do anything on the level of nuance that Vasher did?

-Note that another possibility that I've been entertaining is that hCopper might just steal the capacity for intelligence/memory, rather than the memories themselves. The Blessing of Presence is made from a pair of copper spikes, after all, and we don't see TenSoon reliving other people's memories: instead we see him with a more resilient mind and an unnaturally sharp memory in and of himself.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Oudeis]

(this based on the MAG, granted, but I think it can be trusted not to have just made up the Hemalurgic use of a metal out of whole cloth)

 

Why?

[Kurkistan]

Why?

 

Because. I don't recall any precedent for them just flat-out making up abilities/effects. Especially ones that tie into existing parts of the magic system: are you telling me that we should also believe that Team Sanderson would let them make up the type of metal/attributes that go into the Blessing of Presence?

 

EDIT: On further thought there has been a tad of inconsistency historically between the MAG and other sources regarding the Blessings, but so deeply misidentifying copper's hemalurgic properties goes beyond a mere typo. I'll stand by the statement that I think the MAG safe enough to trust here, especially in light of just now getting a new WoB that's telling us that something hemalurgic should be able to steal "Memory".

Edited February 2, 2015 by Kurkistan

[skaa]

Yeah Kurkistan did message me about these, so I could add them to the database, but I wanted to wait until the audio was posted so we could get verbatim stuff.

Yeah, verbatim stuff would be nice. We'll look forward to that!

I'd been waiting on Hero or Phantom to post the WoBs here so as not to steal their thunder; no harm meant on my part by not posting them immediately.

Oh. I didn't think of asking Hero whether he'd like to make his own thread about it here. Whoops.

Man, I'm just so socially inept it's not even funny.

[Curiosity]

Here is the WoB:

 

I don't feel he's saying "you can do it with massive side effects". He seems pretty confident here that it's a solid "no, Hemalurgy is not capable of something like that".

 

I suppose the true question is what Vasher did with the girl exactly. I've been thinking he just removed the memories of her captivity. If the girl had her memories directly altered so she remembered something like taking a trip with her uncle somewhere for the last while, though, as in like a Forgery could do, I'd accept that Hemalurgy can't do that. I doubt a little girl is capable of Awakening that precisely on only one Breath, but then I guess we don't know how difficult the visualization would be. I feel like just directly removing the memory would be the easiest to visualize.

 

My opinion is that the girl performed "self-Awakening". Vasher told her to repeat certain words and "really mean them". Sounds like Awakening, right? It is possible, since Awakening is not fully understood, that Breath (Investiture, the power of creation) can be used to alter the self. Altering memories a specific event is feasible, since it's a minor effect. Note that Vasher cannot do this himself, probably since the girl's Breath interferes with him "Awakening" her. (I hesitate to use the term Awakening here because it assumes that you're Investing another object.) Presumably, only you can Command your breath ("My life to yours, my Breath become yours", maybe has to do with Identity?).

 

It is my contention that Endowment performs this type of Awakening on Returned, working with a larger Breath (more Investiture, capable of larger effects), so that it obscures the memories of their previous life. Endowment, being orders of magnitude more powerful than, normal people and their Breaths, can easily "override" the Identity (?) problem. If this is assumed, then the girl's memory is hidden, not stolen. Why the Returned often remember their last moments (or entire lives?) right before they die.* (Finding the annotation...)

 

 

 

His wife had the same disease Calmseer had. She remembered, at that moment, why she had come back—indeed, she remembered her entire life (that’s common for Returned the moment before they give up their Breath)—and gave away her life to heal her daughter.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Curiosity

[Oudeis]

Because. I don't recall any precedent for them just flat-out making up abilities/effects.

 

Sounds a bit tautological. We assume they didn't make up Copper, and your reasoning is that we have no evidence of them making anything up. If you won't accept Copper as something they made up, because of the lack of something like Copper they made up, then providing you with further evidence won't convince you.

 

For anyone else reading this, I'm gonna point out that Bendalloy Savants lose "Charm" for some reason when they stop burning, and Cadmium Savants lose social influence (possibly because to become a cadmium savant you have to skip over enough time that most people who remember you are now ten years older). Granted, those have not yet been proven wrong, since we haven't yet had time to prove them wrong.

 

For a fact in the book that was made up and is proven wrong, the burn rate of Duralumin uses up an entire charge all at once, a clear contradiction of how it works in the books. Or, for that matter, pretty much the entirety of how Copper Feruchemy is explained.

 

There's more, but I think my case has been made. I'm not saying "they are absolutely, definitely wrong" but we've got at least two W's-o-B that I know of telling us not to trust anything written in the Treatise Metallurgic that's unconfirmed by the books.

 

Obviously, this being unconfirmed, believe what you want. I just find "a bunch of unconfirmed information hasn't been proven wrong yet" a specious argument for "we should assume it's true," especially when some unconfirmed information has, in fact, been proven wrong. You can split hairs if you want and say "nothing fundamental like the entire use of a metal has been proven wrong," but you're the one who said: "I don't recall any precedent for them just flat-out making up abilities/effects" so I've provided some abilities and effects they just flat-out made up. If you'd like to now change your argument, feel free.

 

Finally, we get someone with the Blessing of Presence as a main viewpoint character for an entire book. He references his Blessing several times. He mentions having alien memories in his head never. I concede that lack of proof is not proof of lack, and Blessings have been known to work in subtly different ways from individual spikes (EDIT: Unable to find anything canon about hemalurgic tin spikes, so previous statement is suspect; for all we know, tin spikes really do enhance all five senses). Still, it strikes me as at least as valid an argument against copper holding memories as "because the Mag says so" for an actual reason to trust. A reason to speculate? A reason to wonder? A reason to concede possible? Certainly, all those and more. An actual reason to trust? A stretch.

 

Back to the actual quote, I find it odd. The question itself doesn't talk about removing memories, it talks about altering them. As has been pointed out, we are only able to speculate on what specifically Vasher had the girl do. While a recent WoB has Mr. Sanderson himself telling us not to trust WoB on really obscure stuff, and I think this qualifies, I hasten to suggest that even if copper can steal memories, that something with a bit more subtlety than a simple removal of specific engrams must've happened in this case.

Edited February 4, 2015 by Oudeis

[LiquidBlue]

 

Q: Could you steal any trait hemalurgically that can be stored feruchemically?

A: Yes you could steal any trait that could be stored.

 

 

This makes sense, but the implications are enormous. I knew about the Kandra blessings and the Kholoss spikes, and that they didn't grant access to one one of the magic systems, but transferred other attributes, but I guess I didn't consider the implications.

 

Hemalugy allows someone to steal the youth from somebody and give it to another.

 

I think that there is a WoB that Lord Ruler's immortality involved Hemalurgy, but I also just thought this was a misspeak since the ability to allomatically burn feruchemically charged atium seems like it should be enough to maintain constant youth. But this feruchemical charge is still not well explained, and perhaps this trick still wouldn't allow a person to live beyond their natural life span, you also need to add in the Hemalurgy to steal the lifespans of others.

 

Stealing another's fortune is an interesting idea, but I doubt that any individual person has much luck at a time, and the fact that they are being spiked probably means that their luck has run out.

 

Gold is another scary one. Using it to steal another's heath. You can definitely see the temptation to abuse hemalurgy.

 

In general the hemalurgist is still going to want to go after access to other magic systems, but even in the absence of such people to spike, the hemalurgist still has powerful motivations to steal from other people.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Sounds a bit tautological. We assume they didn't make up Copper, and your reasoning is that we have no evidence of them making anything up. If you won't accept Copper as something they made up, because of the lack of something like Copper they made up, then providing you with further evidence won't convince you.

 

For anyone else reading this, I'm gonna point out that Bendalloy Savants lose "Charm" for some reason when they stop burning, and Cadmium Savants lose social influence (possibly because to become a cadmium savant you have to skip over enough time that most people who remember you are now ten years older). Granted, those have not yet been proven wrong, since we haven't yet had time to prove them wrong.

 

For a fact in the book that was made up and is proven wrong, the burn rate of Duralumin uses up an entire charge all at once, a clear contradiction of how it works in the books. Or, for that matter, pretty much the entirety of how Copper Feruchemy is explained.

 

There's more, but I think my case has been made. I'm not saying "they are absolutely, definitely wrong" but we've got at least two W's-o-B that I know of telling us not to trust anything written in the Treatise Metallurgic that's unconfirmed by the books.

 

Obviously, this being unconfirmed, believe what you want. I just find "a bunch of unconfirmed information hasn't been proven wrong yet" a specious argument for "we should assume it's true," especially when some unconfirmed information has, in fact, been proven wrong. You can split hairs if you want and say "nothing fundamental like the entire use of a metal has been proven wrong," but you're the one who said: "I don't recall any precedent for them just flat-out making up abilities/effects" so I've provided some abilities and effects they just flat-out made up. If you'd like to now change your argument, feel free.

 

Finally, we get someone with the Blessing of Presence as a main viewpoint character for an entire book. He references his Blessing several times. He mentions having alien memories in his head never. I concede that lack of proof is not proof of lack, and Blessings have been known to work in subtly different ways from individual spikes (EDIT: Unable to find anything canon about hemalurgic tin spikes, so previous statement is suspect; for all we know, tin spikes really do enhance all five senses). Still, it strikes me as at least as valid an argument against copper holding memories as "because the Mag says so" for an actual reason to trust. A reason to speculate? A reason to wonder? A reason to concede possible? Certainly, all those and more. An actual reason to trust? A stretch.

 

 

We also have quotes and WoB that Brandon is at least PASSIVELY involved in editing Crafty's stuff to the point where he does not want to try and take on other major projects of a similar vein like a Stormlight Archive RPG.

Most of the changes like the one's you constantly point out with the MAG appear more than anything to be balance issues and I at least am more inclined to believe that most of the MAG info is in fact Balanced to prevent Clear overpowering in play.

When they say that Nicrosil stores investiture I am assuming that they have read some Silmarilan level source material provided by Brandon and interpreting it mechanically to fit the rules and then having to run it by Brandon who as a DM and the creator, Will Straight Up Deny Things The System Could Not Do.

But you know. Belive what you wish.

[Edgedancer]

This makes sense, but the implications are enormous. I knew about the Kandra blessings and the Kholoss spikes, and that they didn't grant access to one one of the magic systems, but transferred other attributes, but I guess I didn't consider the implications.

 

Hemalugy allows someone to steal the youth from somebody and give it to another.

 

I think that there is a WoB that Lord Ruler's immortality involved Hemalurgy, but I also just thought this was a misspeak since the ability to allomatically burn feruchemically charged atium seems like it should be enough to maintain constant youth. But this feruchemical charge is still not well explained, and perhaps this trick still wouldn't allow a person to live beyond their natural life span, you also need to add in the Hemalurgy to steal the lifespans of others.

 

Stealing another's fortune is an interesting idea, but I doubt that any individual person has much luck at a time, and the fact that they are being spiked probably means that their luck has run out.

 

Gold is another scary one. Using it to steal another's heath. You can definitely see the temptation to abuse hemalurgy.

 

In general the hemalurgist is still going to want to go after access to other magic systems, but even in the absence of such people to spike, the hemalurgist still has powerful motivations to steal from other people.

Hemalurgy in canon isn´t quite that handy though. Looking at Kollos and Kandra it becomes apparent that stealing traits can cause severe mutations and leaves the mind open for attacks, which are plenty reasons not to spike oneself.

[LiquidBlue]

Hemalurgy in canon isn´t quite that handy though. Looking at Kollos and Kandra it becomes apparent that stealing traits can cause severe mutations and leaves the mind open for attacks, which are plenty reasons not to spike oneself.

 

Thanks for curtailing my eagerness. I think I misread the quote a little, and misremembered how hemalurgy handles traits.

 

I read it to mean that you could use it like a destructive form of feruchemy. That is you steal a certain amount of strength or speed from another person, then when you spike yourself you have a certain amount of that attribute available to use as a feruchemist would.

 

Reviewing the Ars Arcanum however reminds me that it doesn't really seem to steal a quantity of an attribute like a feruchemist would store, but rather the capacity to produce that attribute.

 

This actually enhances my thoughts as to why the Lord Ruler would need hemalurgy for his immortality. It is likely that atium feruchemy doesn't store something like vitality, but something more metaphysical like lifetime potential. Allomatically burning that charge doesn't extend that potential, but maybe intensifies it. So in order to have an extended potential you need to steal it from somebody else. Allomancy in this case is useful to makeup for some of the hemalurgical decay.

 

We only saw massive morphological changes in the case of the kholoss, but this may be a special case. Strength is a little unique among the feruchemical powers in that it causes a morphological change in the feruchemist. The Kholoss also have the additional whammy of having 4 identical spikes.

 

Of course if you are stealing the capacity for something, stealing fortune is more useful. And even though you aren't like Miles, at least to get the hemalurgical benefits of health you don't need to continue stealing it from others, and of course investiture is always intriguing.

 

What if your stole weight from someone and they survived, would they then have permanently reduced weigh?