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Motivation, Execution, Consequence: A Realmatic Theory


Kurkistan

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No, I meant the one about something essentially being inside and outside of a bubble at the same time.  Someone asked Brandon how it would work if someone put up a bendalloy bubble in front of a moving train.  Judging by the answer, I think Brandon mis-interpretted the question.

 

I just thought of how my example breaks down (to an extent).  Wayne would not be 8 minutes older than Wax because when the bubble drops, time inside the bubble resumes correlation with time outside the bubble.  This is shown by the muddled sounds their speaking makes (which they cover by coughing) when the bubble is dropped.  So in essence everything happens in a massive blur of physics when the bubble drops.  I still think that Wayne was and will continue to move 5 mph and thus still have the same momentum, etc.  I think the velocity reconciliation would just be a part of the physics blur.

 

Edit: I just did some searching for that quote.  I admit that I remembered it a little funny.  Also interestingly, it was your question Kurk :P and the answer does indeed include the cognitive aspect of the issue.

 

Kurkistan- I asked some time bubble questions on the Q&A, and here are the answers:

 

Quote

 


 

Quote

time bubble, and throw a spear out of the bubble, what happens to that spear as it traverses the border of the bubble? Are different parts of the spear ever in different "time zones," going fundamentally different speeds?

On that line of reasoning, what would happen to a train and its occupants if Marisi stood next to railroad tracks holding up a Cadmium bubble while that train sped by?

In general, a large object going through a time bubble is not going to notice. An object is either in or out, and it depends in part on how the object views itself. People inside the train would be inside of its influence, and wouldn't notice the bubble. The spear would go from one to the other, but would never be in both.


 

Edited by Shardlet
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No, I meant the one about something essentially being inside and outside of a bubble at the same time.  Someone asked Brandon how it would work if someone put up a bendalloy bubble in front of a moving train.  Judging by the answer, I think Brandon mis-interpretted the question.

 

I just thought of how my example breaks down (to an extent).  Wayne would not be 8 minutes older than Wax because when the bubble drops, time inside the bubble resumes correlation with time outside the bubble.  This is shown by the muddled sounds their speaking makes (which they cover by coughing) when the bubble is dropped.  So in essence everything happens in a massive blur of physics when the bubble drops.  I still think that Wayne was and will continue to move 5 mph and thus still have the same momentum, etc.  I think the velocity reconciliation would just be a part of the physics blur.

 

Though I haven't discussed bubble-sounds before, I imagine that sound does not share light's immunity to the effects of time bubbles. So the sounds of Wax/Waynes conversation will leave the bubble at an incredibly high frequency (though the same magnitude, I believe) over a relatively short time--a few seconds, at most, and it might not even have traveled all the way to another person by the time you drop the bubble. Throw in a cough to make it sound like all the weird sounds they just heard can be attributed to that violent exhalation and you're golden.

 

I don't think we need appeal to "physics blurs" quite yet. I'm fine with Wayne aging abnormally fast. Reverting everything that happens in the bubble sounds a bit extreme.

 

 

Edit: I just did some searching for that quote.  I admit that I remembered it a little funny.  Also interestingly, it was your question Kurk :P and the answer does indeed include the cognitive aspect of the issue.

 

Yeah, as a rule I'm the guy who you can remember as saying too much about time bubbles. :P Does the proper quote do away with your perplexity?

Edited by Kurkistan
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Though I haven't discussed bubble-sounds before, I imagine that sound does not share light's immunity to the effects of time bubbles. So the sounds of Wax/Waynes conversation will leave the bubble at an incredibly high frequency (though the same magnitude, I believe) over a relatively short time--a few seconds, at most, and it might not even have traveled all the way to another person by the time you drop the bubble. Throw in a cough to make it sound like all the weird sounds they just heard can be attributed to that violent exhalation and you're golden.

 

I don't think we need appeal to "physics blurs" quite yet. I'm fine with Wayne aging abnormally fast. Reverting everything that happens in the bubble sounds a bit extreme.

 

Tricky business, this.  I referred to the blur of physics partly because I haven't figured it out yet (I think more in-depth explainations for some of it could be teased out with a little thought, I'm feeling a little lazy though).  As to sound versus time, hmm.  Tricky.  Consider, light is a wave in the macro sense, and a particle in the quantum sense.  In contrast a sound is not an independent particle.  Ever.  A sound is a result of a vibrational frequency of interacting particles (i.e., in space, no one can hear you scream).  Sound cannot exist or be transmitted without a medium (comprising particles) to transmit it.  Clearly sounds may be encoded as electromagnetic signals, transmitted over a vacuum, received and decoded back into phononic vibration.  But such a consideration does not apply (as far as I can so far see) in the condensed sound after bubble drop.  It seems that the sound would have to be a higher frequency; But; if that is the case, it does not seem like coughing would cover it adequately.  I also can see no reason why the magnitude (or amplitude) would be altered by the bubble drop.  It seems that the duration of the compressed sound would be directly proportional to the time compression caused by the bubble.

 

It seems that the difference in passage of time is merely perceptional, but that would result in a actual increase in the speed of thought and action for the person(s) within the bubble.  This would also fail to account for the deflection of objects as they traverse the border of the bubble.

 

I'll have to think about it more tonight when I have more time.

 

Does the proper quote do away with your perplexity?

 

Nope :wacko:

 

Edit: spelling, etc.

Edited by Shardlet
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I thought I was following you for the first paragraph, then you come to your "It seems that the difference in passage of time is merely perceptional" conclusion out of left field, so far as I can see.  :huh:

 

Recall that, as you said, magnitude shouldn't be changed by exiting the bubble. So if you have a relatively quiet conversation from people facing away from their dupes, then make it sound like a very quiet squeak/wheeze accompanied by a loud cough, it could well be overlooked.

 

EDIT: Here's the quote, for reference (chapter 2):

 

Waxillium cursed under his breath, but pocketed the round and stood back up. He started coughing loudly as the speed bubble collapsed, restoring normal time. To the three visitors, only seconds had passed, and to their ears Waxillium and Wayne’s conversation would be sped up to the point that most of it would be inaudible. The coughing would cover anything else.

 

I suppose it leaves open the door that it was all "condensed", actually. Hm. I don't like that. This requires thought.

 

As a fallback position, I hereby prepare the excuse that the edge of the bubble captures sound, as I do not recall Wayne ever hearing anything outside of his bubble, nor Miles hearing the low-frequency thunder of approaching police.

 

---

 

Btw, I don't there's no reason beyond the convenient for light not being affected by time bubbles. It's all handwavium by Word of Peter. I'm sure we've got some ex-post-factor Realmatic pretzels to justify it by now, but light not being affected is not intrinsic to the operation of time bubbles, and so should not be taken as a clue to their nature.

 

Also, deflection could well be a separate issue, so no need to wrap up our explanation of sounds into solving it. Now, to wrap up our explanation of sounds into deflection, it could well be the case that sound waves are similarly "jostled" when they leave a time bubble, resulting in random scattering and magnitude/frequency changes, perhaps.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Also, deflection could well be a separate issue, so no need to wrap up our explanation of sounds into solving it. Now, to wrap up our explanation of sounds into deflection, it could well be the case that sound waves are similarly "jostled" when they leave a time bubble, resulting in random scattering and magnitude/frequency changes, perhaps.

If it resulted in random scattering and magnitude/frequency changes, it would most likely come out as gobbledygook to everyone on the outside anyway and so Wax and Wayne wouldn't need to worry about coughing at the end. 

 

EDIT: I had a brain fart there, they would still need to cough to hide the fact that they had a conversation, just not to hide the details of it.

Edited by Cartith
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  • 2 weeks later...

Kind of late in the day, but I was skimming AoL and found this quote. Wayne has just put up a speed bubble:

 

"Everything outside slowed--bullets stilled in the air, shouts vanished, the waves diffusing as they hit the speed bubble. That did strange things to sound."
 
So yes, speed bubbles actually actively do weird things to sound. It seems, even, that they make sound go away. "Diffusing" could either be a case of the sound dispersing or of frequency being down-shifted so far that it isn't audible any more.
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Well, a bullet, which is a solid object (in the sense that it is a particle or made of particles rather than in the sense of solid, liquid, or gas), is deflected (meaning its original course is changed) by hitting the bubble.  Sound is transmitted by particles (atoms, molecules, etc.) vibrationally smacking into each other.  So, essentially sound waves (vibrational frequencies passing from particle to particle) cannot pass through the bubble without being deflected.  Since sound waves are continuous (as opposed to instantaneous), and objects hitting bubbles are dflected in unpredictable ways, then presumably sounds hitting a bubble would become incoherent relative to their original form since a first part of the soundwave would be deflected in a different manner than a second, thrid, fourth, etc. part of a sound wave.

 

edit: clarified what I meant by 'solid object'

Edited by Shardlet
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  • 10 months later...

UPDATE:

 

Source:

 

Kurkistan: Are the laws of physics in the cosmere Spiritually based?

Brandon: They.. The laws of physics in the cosmere are _ours_ except where they have been changed by Spiritual influence. So I guess you could say "yes."

 

I'm not quite so sure how to interpret this. I really should have dug down and gotten clarification, but my brain wasn't really working just then.

 

So the most pessimistic reading of this places the laws of physics somewhere non-Spiritual that the Spiritual happens to be able to influence.

 

I'm inclined to be more optimistic and see this more as Brandon wanting to be very clear that the laws of physics are normal as a rule. I think, then, that I would have gotten a far less ambiguous answer if I'd prefaced my question with "We know that the laws of physics in the cosmere are ours, but..." This interpretation is buoyed by the Ars Arcanum referring to gravity as a Spiritual bond that's reassigned by Lashings and Brandon reaffirming that language in relation to time bubbles, as I discussed with Phantom.

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