Motivation, Execution, Consequence: A Realmatic Theory

[Kurkistan]

I'm saying that blaming 'Returned can shapeshift' on having more cognitive stuff in their Big Breath doesn't really make sense.  It has exactly as much to do with the cognitive realm as being immune to disease and poison.

 

I'm still trying to work out what exactly having "more cognitive stuff" even means, so you'll have to forgive me if I'm a bit vague here, and/or laughably wrong in hindsight.

 

Taking some inspiration from Windy's "Shardic Constructs Corollary" thread, I would suggest that you need certain "structures" before you can access Spiritual power. In this case, I would suggest that the Cognitive aspects of Returned are augmented such that they have a relatively full and rich access to a certain number of Forms. The ones we care about in this case are the "Returned" Form that determines what Returned look like (Fat vs. Athletic) and some Form that defines ideal and complete Human-Health, both of which I have posited as explanations for certain effects of Divine Breath in the past.

 

Now, though, with Divine Breath incorporating Cognitive components, we can explain exactly why those with Divine Breath both have access to these Forms and the ability to be so strongly influenced by them. The Cognitive components of Divine Breath, then, seem such that they augment Cognitive aspects in order to both grant access to and enable responsiveness to these particular Forms.

 

Am I just whistling in the the dark here, or are you catching what I'm throwing?

 

You've got a theory about how awakening works, involving copying the awakener's cognitive aspect onto a blank slate.  But we know that divine breaths already have a big scoop of cognitive in them, and they can be used for awakening.  So you've got a big barrel of side cognitive stuff, which should by all rights interfere if it works like you've said.

 

You have a point. I would guess that we might see some odd effects if a Returned ever Awakens something with their Divine Breath. Or it could all just be rolled into giving that Awakened object the single most robust and responsive Cognitive aspect ever. Or nothing could happen and the extra Cognitive stuff is just inactive when used for Awakening. I don't know.

 

Anyway, if you're actually right and all Breath have the same proportion of Cognitiveness as Divine Breath, then Awakening should work the same, though I suppose that's your point. At that point, I just have to point you to the entire War of Nepene and the many good reasons I give during its course for Breaths not being significantly Cognitive.

 

--

 

Despite the ruckus it has caused you to raise, I do think that this revelation of Splinters as being partially Cognitive is a boon for our understanding of BioChroma.

 

It explains why Returned are so different in a very tidy manner. I don't find it very enticing to abandon this plausible explanation for the nature of Returned, along with all the insight it can give us into what exactly it means for something to be "more cognitive". And all for the sake of arguing that all Breath are qualitatively identical to Divine Breath, only then to be forced to either come up with another explanation for why Divine Breath are special or wallow in ignorance once again.

 

EDIT: In reply to your edit:

 

Also

...

Determination is cognitive.

 

Huh.

 

*Looks up*

 

My mistake, then. Actually, it's part of the Hybrid metals, and thus technically Physical if it still holds that Feruchemy breaks down on P/C/S/P lines. Boom! Wrong but still right . And if it isn't Physical, then I would say that Determination still sounds more akin to something like Identity than it does to Memory or other such clearly Cognitive things, so it's still an acceptable, if not even highly plausible, interpretation.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Deterimination is the one that got its metal switched with warmth.

[Kurkistan]

Yes, but it has a more convoluted history than that:

 

Link

As it turns out, there is an error in the Feruchemical table when Brandon put it in Mistborn 2. If you look closely, Determination (insert metal) doesn't belong in its group. The group that it is in is obviously more physical powers. Determination was supposed to be a mental metal, and Warmth was supposed to be in that Physical group. He just made a mistake originally. But it turns out that Feruchemy obeys different rules than Allomancy, so Brandon isn't retconning it, but saying that Feruchemy works differently now.

 

Where before Brandon was going to have Feruchemy have a "mental" section, now it has a "cognitive" section. I suppose there's an interesting question to ask on how Brandon managed to make Brass's effects work Cognitively, but that's for another day, and Brandon is settled quite firmly on things breaking down properly as they are now, if you think Realmatically. So Brass works Cognitively and Determination Physically.

 

P.S. Not that I couldn't explain away even mental determination. Top two options are as "trickle down" from lessened Spiritual power, or as Determination as actually being a straight-out expression of your Spiritual self. Recall that "mental" doesn't demand that it be Cognitive.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

That's an in-universe construct, though. 

 

We know that the quadrants in feruchemy don't line up with allomancy, and on that chart they do.

Same with hemalurgy - it doesn't line up consistently.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=689

Zas678

These are things that I overhead.

Are the usual quadrants (Physical, Mental, Temporal, Enhancement) preserved in Feruchemy and Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson.

No. In Ferchemy, it is based Realmatically. There is a quadrant of Spiritual, a quadrant of Cognitive and two quadrants of Physical.

 

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=428

Chaos2651

Is there a rationale to how Hemalurgic powers are distributed? I tried to look for a system, but they seem rather randomly distributed. For example, the spike which steals Allomantic powers for a particular quadrant is not always in one particular spot.

Brandon Sanderson

That is correct, it's not always in one particular spot. None of them are.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Kurkistan]

If you read the Brandon quote I gave last post, the implication is quite clearly that the breakdown in the books was accurate, insofar as how stuff was grouped.

 

EDIT: I believe that that new Chaos quote is referring to bindpoints, not "spots" on a table.

 

EDIT 2: Storm it Phantom, that's actually a quote mine. Shame.

 

Link

CHAOS2651
Is there a rationale to how Hemalurgic powers are distributed? I tried to look for a system, but they seem rather randomly distributed. For example, the spike which steals Allomantic powers for a particular quadrant is not always in one particular spot.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

That is correct, it's not always in one particular spot. None of them are. I used as my model on this magic system the concept of acupuncture and pressure points. Placing a Hemalurgic spike is a very delicate and specific art. Imagine there being a different overlay on a human body, like a new network of nerves, representing lines, points, and 'veins' of the soul's spiritual makeup.

 

What is happening with Hemalurgy, essentially, is that you're driving a spike through a specific point on a person's body and ripping off a piece of their soul. It sticks to the spike on the Spiritual Realm. Then, you place that spike on someone else in a specific place (not exactly the same place, but on the right spiritual pressure point) and 'hot wire' the spirit to give it Hemalurgy or Feruchemy. It's like you're fooling the spiritual DNA, creating a work-around. Or, in some cases, changing the spirit to look like something else, which has the immediate effect of distorting the body and transforming it into a new creature.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

If you read the Brandon quote I gave last post, the implication is quite clearly that the breakdown in the books was accurate, insofar as how stuff was grouped.

I interpret it as 'feruchemy used to have the same quadrant breakdown, and now it doesn't'.

 

 

 

EDIT 2: Storm it Phantom, that's actually a quote mine. Shame.

 

The question is clearly referring to the quadrants, and it is indeed the case that 'stealing allomancy' doesn't line up (external physical pushing/internal mental pushing/internal enhancement pulling). [incidentally, that means that the temporal stealing metal should probably be external temporal pulling - cadmium]

 

The other way of reading it doesn't make sense - there are spikes of a particular metal that are always in the same location on inquisitors.  Two of them, steel, one in each eye.  Or kandra blessings/koloss spikes, which are always in the same places.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Kurkistan]

1) Please see my edits to my previous post. Weird distribution of bindpoints doesn't exactly scream implications for what powers the metals have.
 
2) I might buy that interpretation if the quote stood on its own, but then you have to look at how the MAG, Ars Arcanum, and Feruchemy chart all break them down the same way Realmatically. By the time we're using the word "Cognitive" instead of the more natural "mental" and calling Connection and Investiture Spiritual (aside:ooh, another very firm clue that magic power is fundamentally Spiritual), I think we can give the Terrismen a bit more credit here.
 
I also doubt that we'd see a printing of such a fundamentally wrong Feruchemical chart, if only for the sake of pride and avoiding confusion ten years down the line if everything is turned on its head.

EDIT: Though this retroactive edit discussion is odd, okay, you started it.

EDIT 2: Clarified a few things a few minutes after "edit-posting".

Brandon's entire response is about bindpoints and where spikes are placed in the body. Chaos was asking about the quadrants, but Brandon wasn't answering about them (recall that this was a public Q&A, so some miscommunication likely happened). We can have a separate discussion about Hemalurgy's distribution of metals, but that quote won't be of any use to it.

 

If you want to discuss Hemalurgy's breakdown, yes, it is a bit odd so far as correspondence across quadrants goes, but it looks as if the 4-metal quadrants are all intact. And even if they weren't, I have all that other stuff about the believability of the current breakdown of Feruchemy's quadrants, so Hemalurgy can just go off to a corner and be weird by itself in another new and interesting way.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I also doubt that we'd see a printing of such a fundamentally wrong Feruchemical chart, if only for the sake of pride and avoiding confusion ten years down the line if everything is turned on its head.

 

It's got a quadrant of 'hybrid metals' instead of two of physical.  The chart is obviously based off in-universe understanding.

 

 

2) I might buy that interpretation if the quote stood on its own, but then you have to look at how the MAG, Ars Arcanum, and Feruchemy chart all break them down the same way Realmatically. By the time we're using the word "Cognitive" instead of the more natural "mental" and calling Connection and Investiture Spiritual (aside:ooh, another very firm clue that magic power is fundamentally Spiritual), I think we can give the Terrismen a bit more credit here.

 

Point of order: Terrismen have no idea what they're doing. 

 

Soulbearer Ferrings can store Investiture in a nicrosil metalmind. This is a power that very few know anything about; indeed, I’m certain the people of Terris don’t truly know what they are doing when they use these powers

 

But yeah I will agree that investiture and 'magical power' is generally stored in the spiritual realm, along with your spiritweb.  I am just very reluctant to put anything nonmagical into spiritual.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Kurkistan]

It's got a quadrant of 'hybrid metals' instead of two of physical.  The chart is obviously based off in-universe understanding.

 

Well yeah, you aren't going to have a Physical quadrant and then a "2nd Physical" quadrant, and "Hybrid" (though I would have called it "Life", personally) is more descriptive. Regardless, they had good calls on Cognitive and Spiritual.

 

Point of order: Terrismen have no idea what they're doing. 

 

According to the AoLAAA, and they have at least some idea if they've got the terminology and Realmatics right. They might not know exactly what Investiture is or how to use/manipulate it, but they likely have about as good an idea as we do.

 

But yeah I will agree that investiture and 'magical power' is generally stored in the spiritual realm, along with your spiritweb.  I am just very reluctant to put anything nonmagical into spiritual.

 

I can understand your reluctance, but we're not left in a good place if the Spiritual doesn't have any "natural" inroads into he other two Realms, and there are good reasons for giving them to it.

 

P.S. I also "edit-replied" to your edit in my previous post.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well yeah, you aren't going to have a Physical quadrant and then a "2nd Physical" quadrant, and "Hybrid" (though I would have called it "Life", personally) is more descriptive. Still, they had good calls on Cognitive and Spiritual.

 

They could have divided it into a non-quadrant way, though.  Call them 'segments' or something.

[Kurkistan]

So one 8-metal "segment" and two 4-metal ones? I guess they could have, but the two physical quadrants act in fairly different ways, Feruchemists have the other two arts' division to look at that say that everything works in groups of 4, 4 is significant because of 16 and all, and we even have Brandon in his god-mode-voice calling it two quadrants of Physical.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

So one 8-metal "segment" and two 4-metal ones? I guess they could have, but the two physical quadrants act in fairly different ways, Feruchemists have the other two arts' division to look at that say that everything works in groups of 4, 4 is significant because of 16 and all, and we even have Brandon in his god-mode-voice calling it two quadrants of Physical.

 

Brandon's also been pretty firm on the quadrants being something that people have organized in-universe, and has mentioned that the charts can be inaccurate

 

EDIT: adding question

> I really liked the atium reveal at the end of mistborn, but after seeing the poster of metals I'm a little confused about exactly how Atium interacts with the others for mistings.  In the book one in every sixteen snapped really hard because they were able to burn Atium, but with the addition of Chromium and Cadmium (along with their alloys) it seems like the ratio wouldn't work.

>

> Did the mists just ignore people with abilities tied to metals that were undiscovered, or is the ability to burn atium tied to the ability to burn some other metal, or is there some weirder explanation?

The charts are all presented as in-world artifacts; what's contained on them is according to the understanding of people in the world at various points in time.

There is another explanation of how everything works out, and there are a few hints in the series itself. There are also hints if you compare versions of the chart to each other. But I'm not going to make a definitive statement so people can figure things out for themselves. When I get around to writing the Mistborn sequel trilogy, more aspects of the magic system will be explored and may help to answer some of your questions.

There are things even Ruin did not know.

 

Interview: Aug 4th, 2011

Book Signing Report - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

Josh

The Allomantic metals are separated into four quadrants. Do the Shards have classifications as well, in groups of four?

Brandon Sanderson

This division, the Allomantic division is a thing researchers and scholars placed upon it.

 

Incidentally, I think we should start a new thread to hunt down the 'There are also hints if you compare versions of the chart to each other'.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Kurkistan]

Brandon's also been pretty firm on the quadrants being something that people have organized in-universe, and has mentioned that the charts can be inaccurate

 

Except that the quote I linked to at the beginning of this page, and that you pulled later, is in the context of Brandon talking to a fan about how it really works, not "well, they think..."

 

Incidentally, I think we should start a new thread to hunt down the 'There are also hints if you compare versions of the chart to each other'.

 

That is interesting. Phantom, I have started far too many threads already: you are charged with this task.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, I think the mystery we were supposed to unravel was the fact that Atium is a God metal, not Temporal

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm not sure he necessarily meant 'two quadrants' as anything more than 'eight metals', but whatever.  We can't get any more info out of that quote by chewing over it.

[Kurkistan]

As an aside, my entire "Notifications" window is now just a series of "Phantom Monstrosity replied to Motivation, Execution, Consequence: A Realmatic Theory" 

[Leuthie]

Brandon stated that physics is normal in the Cosmere, magic aside. He said nothing about how the normal-working physics is accomplished. Everything has aspects in all three Realms, so shouldn't the physical reactions they all have to each other have aspects in all three Realms, as well? Couldn't the laws of physics be defined and regulated outside the Physical Realm? In fact, doesn't it make sense, from all we know, for all physical laws to be found in Spiritual connections?

[Kurkistan]

^Well put Leuthie, and exactly how I see it. In fact, if more of the "surges" on Roshar all turn out to be fundamental forces like gravity and pressure already are, and are manipulated in the same way, we'll have pretty strong evidence to that effect.

 

P.S. Also, sorry Phantom for accusing you of intellectual dishonesty. Looking back, I imagine that you were just in a hurry when you read the Hemalurgy quote, so didn't grasp the fact that he wasn't responding Chaos' to question properly.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Phantom Monstrosity]

P.S. Also, sorry Phantom for accusing you of intellectual dishonesty. Looking back, I imagine that you were just in a hurry when you read the Hemalurgy quote, so didn't grasp the fact that he wasn't responding Chaos' to question properly.

No sweat man; I try not to get worked up about this type of stuff.  Anyway, comparison thread is up, but I only have one chart to transcribe.  Do you happen to have a feruchemy print, or a copy of the mistborn RPG handy?  I remember feeling bummed that the RPG feruchemy chart had just the names on it, but I don't remember if they had a fleshed-out allomancy chart.

[Kurkistan]

I already linked you to a (very grainy) picture of the Feruchemy chart, and here is a hi-res Allomancy chart.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

EDIT: Nevermind, I think the mystery we were supposed to unravel was the fact that Atium is a God metal, not Temporal

The Allomantic Table was released in 2008, my email was from 2011 (post HoA).

 

I just can't make more than a few words on the feruchemy chart .  I've already transcribed the allomantic one... but let's take that to the proper thread.

[Kurkistan]

The Allomantic Table was released in 2008, my email was from 2011 (post HoA).

 

I just can't make more than a few words on the feruchemy chart .  I've already transcribed the allomantic one... but let's take that to the proper thread.

 

It was!? That's very interesting...

 

EDIT: Ok, done talking about that on this thread. Sorry, me, for going off-topic. I promise I won't do that to me again.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Cartith]

I don't know if anyone else has pointed this out, because I have not yet taken the time to read all 7 pages of replies to this theory, but I thought of something when I read the part about the Bendalloy re-writing the "this is how fast you move" statement. I know you provided different theories, but my thoughts on that one are that if they were actually moving faster, when the bubble dropped, would they not have that momentum still moving them, and stumble/crash through the wall? For example, Wayne uses this ability frequently to "slide" from spot to spot to avoid gunfire, but has no issue with falling over from sudden brakes on his speed when he dropped the bubble. 

[Kurkistan]

Yes, not reading all 7 pages is quite understandable . Your input is welcome.

 

Ironically enough, given how much time I've dedicated to it in other threads, I did not really put that much thought into time bubbles for this particular theory. I may well be wrong in my rather blase "this is how fast you move" summary of its effects. In fact, I am wrong, strictly speaking, since I failed to (explicitly, at the very least) account for frame of reference and the passage of time and whatnot.

 

If I were to defend my off-the-cuff description, then, I'd refer you to the fact that "unnatural" changes to Spiritual aspects--ones that violate the normal laws of nature--need a continuous power source to be maintained. Like Lashings stopping after their stormlight runs out. In this case, Wayne isn't being propelled through space at high speeds, fundamentally, but instead has been altered such that his passage through time and space are accelerated. This acceleration is of a higher order than just movement in the Physical--is done in the Spiritual--and is Spiritually unnatural to boot, so is immediately lost when the magic runs out.

 

P.S. Avoid the Great War unless you're a masochist or really want to read a nitpicky argument about BioChroma.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Shardlet]

There would be no stumble because time inside the bubble moves quicker than time outside the bubble.  So, 5 mph (or kph if you prefer) inside the bubble is the same velocity outside the bubble.  This means that if Wayne is moving 5 mph inside the bubble and drops the bubble, he is still moving 5 mph.  His time is simply now consistent with time that existed outside his bubble.  For example, let's say that time passes 5 times as fast inside a bendalloy bubble as it does outside the bubble.  If Wayne had a watch and Wax had a watch that was synchronized with Wayne's and Wayne put up a bubble at 12:00 PM sharp for 2 minutes of outside-bubble-time (time as perceived by Wax), then Wax's watch would show 12:02 and Wayne's watch would show 12:10.  If Wax and Wayne were precisely the same age when Wayne put up the bubble, then Wayne would now be 8 minutes older than Wax.

 

The takeaway is, if Wayne's speed (5 mph) was able to be measured by Wax outside the bubble, it would appear that Wayne was moving 25 mph.  But Wayne would not actually be moving 25 mph, he is only actually moving 5 mph.  The perceived difference is a result of the different rate of the passage of time between the inside and the outside of the bubble.

[Kurkistan]

*Must... restrain... self... Aaah, I give up*

 

Thank you Shardlet, but you are a bit off there. Though we can discuss the passage of time as the dividing line on a very basic level, things break down quite severely once frames of reference are introduced. They're quite annoying.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Kurkistan