Thoughts on Elhokar

[maxal]

Good to see you again, maxal! It's been a while.

 

Hi

 

 

Renarin: we don't get much screen time at all with him, so expecting to see his qualities manifest is not reasonable, particularly for an order known to be secretive. However, despite this, we actually get a strong personality from him: he's someone who watches others. He's widely seen as "creepy" because of this, with women refusing to date him. (Elhokar has no rumors of this sort of thing, like him being a weird king who likes odd things.) Note that Ym was called creepy too - it may be a trait the Truthwatchers share. This is the sort of trait I'm looking for, something that shows someone is distinct from regular people. This is the sort of trait I think can attract spren - remember that the gratitude of those that Kal helped was apparently part of what attracted Syl to him. I also think his (somewhat ridiculous) attempts to help his father and brother are a Truthwatcher trait - their secondary trait is "Giving". Renarin clearly fits "Learned", as like Ym he watches people/goes for their stories. He even joins Bridge Four.

 

Shallan: we don't know about her childhood and what attracted Pattern, so I can't say here. I will say that she acts precisely how a liespren would want her to act, however. She creates great art, she has deep secrets, she pretends to be what she's not, she convinces others to be what they're not, she lies to others with ease. Her becoming Jasnah's ward fits this perfectly.

 

As to Adolin: he's another person I see as exemplifying my point when he killed Sadeas. It's a character defining moment, something a regular person wouldn't do. It makes him unique. It's exactly the sort of thing that would attract a spren, and I expect him to become a KR (eventually - he has character drama to work through first). Before killing Sadeas, I wouldn't have said he'd become a KR.

 

The truth is we do not have a lot to work with, so we've got to try to make best with the clues at end.

 

Renarin does not have much screen time, that is true. However, in the little time we have spend with him, so far, he has not dispelled the idea of becoming a Radiant. He has not shine either nor give us significant clues as to why he is considered to be a learned individual by his spren. Knowing folks tale about the Nightwatcher and asking a few questions about one fabrial does not constitute strong enough proofs of his inclination, but it does not dispute them either. I love the analogy you made with him jumping into the melee as an expression of the "giving" attribute. It is one interpretation I would be willing to endorse.

 

He is the weird introverted little kid liking to observe on the outside as opposed to mingle with the mass. He does not seem to have any friends, but then again, neither does his extroverted big brother. Acrobacar is said to fond of him and disliked the idea of hurting him, leading us to think the entire younger generation of lighteyes are not there to get him: they more likely see him as a nice awkward puppy you tap on the head once in a while. He has never been given any responsibilities mostly because people assume he would not up to the task and he has never done anything to prove them wrong.

 

Bottom line is whereas there are not many arguments to support Renarin's "promotion" to Radiant level, there are none to contradicts it. He has not done nor say anything to put doubt in our mind he may not be fitting.

 

As for Elhokar, dates and potential liking of weird things, I do not buy it. Elhokar, much like Jasnah, is said to perfectly embodied the Alethi male ideal. Adolin comments on how most women he knows find him attractive, but sadly he is not available to them.

 

With have indication Shallan's childhood may not have been pleasant and Pattern state he was attracted by her ability to create beautiful lies. Which lies was she creating then? My personal guess would be a pleasant life for her family, one where her parents did not fight, one where they were a happy united family, which I doubt they ever were, but these are my personal speculation, so hardly an argument. She pretends, she lies, true, but she only does it as a last resort, in order to protect her family. Her lies are all part of the gigantic lie she has been crafted since childhood, one where her brothers are happy and safe. She has proven to be greater than herself.

 

As for Adolin, anyone living probably knows my take on this one. Knifing good old Sadeas does give him an edge no other character has shown so far, but I do think it sprouted at the end of a strange journey where Adolin progressively and steadily rejects the Thrill up to a point where it would not find him anymore. He has consistently done what Elhokar never did: put himself last. Adolin would gladly give his life away if it meant protecting anyone in his family. Never does he strive to achieve glory for himself. Instead, all through the book, he was focus on his father's mission to a point where achieving is long time dream of becoming duelist champion sort of came hollow. And what Elhokar has been doing all the while? Whining and thinking about his personal image....

 

 

 

It would feel like a wasted opportunity for me. There's much more to do with Elhokar as a character than simply killing off when nobody cares. It could most definitely happen, I'm not arguing against that. However, it's not something I'd enjoy reading. I think his story has better places to go tha end in the middle of nowhere.

 

I did not say to bluntly knife him early on the next book, but I do think his path could end by death. His story could go many places, but I doubt Elhokar will ever become a major viewpoint, so whatever he does will most likely remain on the side.

 

 

I consider awareness and acceptance to be part of personal development, so nothing to disagree here on except definitions, which won't very productive. Cryptics are about realizing what you want to deny. Elhokar is a good candidate on this one.

 

Well, as you know, I'm not really for him being a LW, but I'll try to defend the theory for the sake of a good character discussion 

 

It could, depending on how you look at it. However, I am tempted to believe you need more than self-awareness to grow. To grow implies working on your flaws, to mitigate them, which Elhokar has yet to do. Drunkenly admitting to Kaladin he is a bad king is not quite there yet.

 

He may be a good candidate on the fact he denies the truths around him, but he lacks the drive to make things better. He lacks the inspiration we have seen other Radiants exhibit. True, we could argue our impressions of Radiants are tightly based on a few examples which are not conclusive as the possibility of other cases arising outside the given box we have been led to believe was required to become a Radiant is real. However, based on the facts we have at ends, Radiants seem to be greater than average individual, dedicating themselves to issues larger then their own personal benefit. On this scale, Elhokar fails. He fails because in his entire tantrum never once did he assess the damage he may have been doing to the common folk he is said to rule. Personal image is all he is about. If he were greater than your average, he would not care about how he is perceived: he would just act for he thinks is best.

 

I personally can't ignore my feelings on a given character when discussing it

 

 

We don't know if he meant Roshone. Why would he think he appeared soft back then? Who'd bring that one up? Sadeas was satisfied and so was Dalinar, Elhokar has no reason to think he did wrong on that one. He was referring to something else if you ask me. I doubt he wanted to appear stromg when he send Kladin to prison. Actually, I'd rather say that 'when he tries to be merciful, he appears too soft.' was referring to not letting Kal free earlier because he feared the public opinion. The guy just needs a better PR 

 

Dalinar mentioned Elhokar wanted to be easy on Roshone and he felt compassion was good thing to encourage in him... I will concede Dalinar is probably more guilty than Elhokar on that one, but the fact remains Elhokar, again, tried to act for what he saw best for his image. He did not regard justice or risk or future crimes Roshone may commit based on his track record. He let him go. He was merciful.

 

He sent Kal in prison because Kal made him look bad. He had a trantrum and decided to act authoritative in order to safeguard his personal image. He sent Kal in prison and would not calm down for weeks. I did not get he wanted to set Kal free earlier: I get this is how long it took him to stop being petulant and angry Dalinar did say Elhokar was about to come around when he visited Kal, leading me to believe Elhokar has been mad the whole time. Why? Why be so mad at the guy who saved his cousins' life? Because he tarnished his public image.

 

 

Why should his focus on his image make him any less of a potential LW? Where is it said LW can't be deeply concerned with how they are viewed? Plus the guy has only his image. He has no real power, no men (even the King's Guard is under Dalinar's command). His public image is the only thing he has any control over. 

 

Well, Shallan isn't. Dalinar isn't. Kal isn't. Jasnah isn't. Renarin isn't. Adolin is but he is slowly growing out of it. He lost all of his so-called friends in order to support his father. Elhokar? He has not even started to get rid of it.

 

I agree a few Radiants do not constitute a fail-proof argument, but it is something they all have in common.

 

 

 

I totally agree. However none of those are pointed as TW traits. So we couldn't know his Order based on what we've seen, that was my main point. It's easy to misjudge characters and it all looks clear in past tense.

 

 

We knew about the attributes and I don't think even one person would have put Renarin with the TW. I'm not arguing in favor of Elhokar being a KR, but it's still difficult to say who will be one and which Order they'll be. Even Adolin whom we know much about, yet there are plenty of different opinions despite all the new things about the Orders.

 

 

They do not point toward TW traits, but they do not dispute it either. In the case of Renarin, we are lacking clues. In the case of Elhokar, we are clouded by con's.

 

We do not enough about Ren to place hold him accurately. We do not know much more about Elhokar, but what we do know contradicts our current knowledge of Radiants.

 

There are not that many options for Adolin... Only two that I truly see.

[Aleksiel]

....

 

Jasnah makes effort for her appearance - make-up, proper clothing, doing her hair, minding her manners, acting the way she wants to be perceived - Shallan commented on it. And she was the one who told Shallan power was about perception, an illusion. Elhokar just hasn't yet understood how to create the proper illusion. So there is one LW and the second closest to LW Radiants that do care about appearance; public image is important for them, too. 

 

Also, we don't know what deeper issues might truly hide behind Elhokar's obsession with his public image.

 

Even if we are to accept Elhokar has no redeeming qualities and is no Radiant material, there's a need for an explanation - why did he saw those spren? When the Cryptics were around Shallan, neither Jasnah nor any non-surgebinder was aware of their presence. If they wanted to merely observe him: 1. Why did they go away? (that's could be Syl and is not as important as the next one) 2. Why weren't they hiding from him?

 

Surely Rock's awareness of spren isn't rubbing on Elhokar, else he'd have been able to see much more spren around himself, not only in the corner of his eyes or mirrors.

[maxal]

Jasnah makes effort for her appearance - make-up, proper clothing, doing her hair, minding her manners, acting the way she wants to be perceived - Shallan commented on it. And she was the one who told Shallan power was about perception, an illusion. Elhokar just hasn't yet understood how to create the proper illusion. So there is one LW and the second closest to LW Radiants that do care about appearance; public image is important for them, too.

 

Jasnah is using her appearance and the illusion she is projecting of the perfect lighteyed woman in order to obtain what she needs to fuel her research. She has an end game other than gathering admiration from people. Elhokar has no agenda. He wants to be a good king, but why? Because he truly cares about the faith of Alethkar? Because he truly wants what is best for his subjects?

 

Unfortunately for him, based on what we have seen so far, he seemed to nurture his self-image simply for the shake of being liked and respected. If he has a higher more noble agenda, he has not stated yet.

 

LW and EC may nurture their appearance, but not because they wish to be admire, more because they see it as a tool to be used.

 

 

Also, we don't know what deeper issues might truly hide behind Elhokar's obsession with his public image.

 

Whereas it is true it may be hiding something, I think we must not forget Alethi society is pretty vain in itself. Most lighteyed we have met have been strongly concerned about their self-image. Their entire nobility is based on appearances: appearance of success, appearances of power, appearances of wealth, etc. It is not surprising Elhokar would behave this way, however I hardly link the sentient to a Radiant worthy quality.

 

 

Even if we are to accept Elhokar has no redeeming qualities and is no Radiant material, there's a need for an explanation - why did he saw those spren? When the Cryptics were around Shallan, neither Jasnah nor any non-surgebinder was aware of their presence. If they wanted to merely observe him: 1. Why did they go away? (that's could be Syl and is not as important as the next one) 2. Why weren't they hiding from him?

 

Surely Rock's awareness of spren isn't rubbing on Elhokar, else he'd have been able to see much more spren around himself, not only in the corner of his eyes or mirrors.

 

That is the one true argument in favor of him. The shapes he sees. Why can he see them? Why are they not hiding from him? The simplest explanation is they investigated him for a potential Nahel bond, but drop they idea upon seeing he did not fit all of the criteria. Why they went away? Perhaps they were scared of Syl or perhaps it is they just decided not to pursue with Elhokar.

 

I feel there is no good answer to these questions: it could be anything. However, if I look at all the clues we currently have, put them together, then I have to range myself within those who do not believe Elhokar will become a Radiant.

[Aleksiel]

Jasnah is using her appearance and the illusion she is projecting of the perfect lighteyed woman in order to obtain what she needs to fuel her research. She has an end game other than gathering admiration from people. Elhokar has no agenda. He wants to be a good king, but why? Because he truly cares about the faith of Alethkar? Because he truly wants what is best for his subjects?

 

Unfortunately for him, based on what we have seen so far, he seemed to nurture his self-image simply for the shake of being liked and respected. If he has a higher more noble agenda, he has not stated yet.

 

LW and EC may nurture their appearance, but not because they wish to be admire, more because they see it as a tool to be used.

 

Elhokar does not care solely about his appearance. He wanted Kal to teach him 'how to be a hero', he wants to be a man 'like his father was'. These are not words of someone who cares only how he's perceived. Sure, he doesn't wish to be thought weak or too soft, but he also wants to figure out how to be a better king in action as well as in words.

 

 

 

Whereas it is true it may be hiding something, I think we must not forget Alethi society is pretty vain in itself. Most lighteyed we have met have been strongly concerned about their self-image. Their entire nobility is based on appearances: appearance of success, appearances of power, appearances of wealth, etc. It is not surprising Elhokar would behave this way, however I hardly link the sentient to a Radiant worthy quality.

 

True, however vanity itself does not disqualify anyone from Radianthood. Elhokar is not vain in the meaning of polishing his shoes every other hour; his concern with his public image is focused on the bigger aspect of it. Also, as I said in the previous paragraph, Elhokar want to be a better king not just in reputation.

 

 

 

That is the one true argument in favor of him. The shapes he sees. Why can he see them? Why are they not hiding from him? The simplest explanation is they investigated him for a potential Nahel bond, but drop they idea upon seeing he did not fit all of the criteria. Why they went away? Perhaps they were scared of Syl or perhaps it is they just decided not to pursue with Elhokar.

 

I feel there is no good answer to these questions: it could be anything. However, if I look at all the clues we currently have, put them together, then I have to range myself within those who do not believe Elhokar will become a Radiant.

 

 

I am not convinced they were truly Cryptics, but I'd rather go with this one than pointlessly speculate on another type of spren we've never even seen. Basically the easiest explanation is they were Cryptics, so I'll drop any arguments against it for now, but I'll just note here I'm more about the WS spren theory.

 

The bond must have been forming for a while before he was able to see them - think of Jasnah or Shallan's experience. I wonder how Pattern never caught of glimpse on them or may be didn't mention it? I somehow doubt one honorspren can scare away a bunch of Cryptics, they aren't enemies. And we don't know if it was a coincidence - Elhokar started sinking into wine and whining too fast in WoR. When did he stop seeing them? What did he do? Sure, he started deluding himself he'd figure out how to be a hero with Kal's help, but was it really then when the shadows go away? Or did they disappear after Szeth's visit? Odium('s spren?) was basically following him on his feet, may be a non-bonded Radiant spren got scared away or pushed back into Shadesmar? At any rate, I'm inclined to believe Elhokar saw whatever-these-spren-were because there was a bond forming.

 

Seeing what qualities he has will probably be easier in retrospect once we know what we're looking for. And once Elhokar has enough screen time to show us more about himself.

 

Elhokar has his deep truths he hidden behind comforting lies and I think we agree that could draw a Cryptic to him. But he also has this determination to be better than he is, to find what he's missing, which could point toward another Order - being resolute in WS trait, nobody said anything about actually succeeding  Kal commented how Elhokar 'kept running', which he realized was more important than his failings. Elhokar is also trying to build a better image for himself and may be (he hasn't said it so far as I recall) wants his kingdom to be stronger and better, too. At least it's easier for me to say he has some building-related mindset than speculated he has some hidden creativity.

 

Elhokar faking the assassination attempt on himself is more about his resolution to make others take his worries seriously than him showing creativity. I'm very interested in analyzing his character in more details, but I'll need a re-read on his scenes and Dalinar's comments, which unfortunately can't happen in the next few days.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

Elhokar does not care solely about his appearance. He wanted Kal to teach him 'how to be a hero', he wants to be a man 'like his father was'. These are not words of someone who cares only how he's perceived. Sure, he doesn't wish to be thought weak or too soft, but he also wants to figure out how to be a better king in action as well as in words.

 

He does not want to be a hero so he could be of help to others, he wants to be a hero so people would perceived him as such. This is where I believe Elhokar fails at being a proto-Radiant. He true hero does not try to be a hero, it does not even relinquish in it: it simply acts because it cannot bear the thought of inaction in the face of injustice. Being a hero is not something that can be taught, hence Kaladin's reaction upon being asked such thing.

 

He has never indicated he wanted to be a better king for the shake of his nation: but has has lamented at length on how he wanted to perceived as such.

 

 

 

True, however vanity itself does not disqualify anyone from Radianthood. Elhokar is not vain in the meaning of polishing his shoes every other hour; his concern with his public image is focused on the bigger aspect of it. Also, as I said in the previous paragraph, Elhokar want to be a better king not just in reputation.

 

Well no Elhokar is not vain in that sense, but he is concerned about how his people perceived him. He wants to be loved and respected like his father was and vainly believes this is something he could learn. He utterly fails to comprehend the reasons people dislike him are for his lack of insight, his lack of capacity to take actions upon doing what is right. Now the lighteyes and the darkeyes most likely have a very different notion of what is right, but by focusing so much on how he is perceived, Elhokar fails on every front.

 

He never stated he wanted to be better king for his nation, but he has stated he wanted people to see him as they see Kal. He does not want to "improve" himself for the good reasons, he wants to do it for selfish reasons.

 

 

I am not convinced they were truly Cryptics, but I'd rather go with this one than pointlessly speculate on another type of spren we've never even seen. Basically the easiest explanation is they were Cryptics, so I'll drop any arguments against it for now, but I'll just note here I'm more about the WS spren theory.

 

I am not convinced either, but let's drop the argument as we cannot conclude, on way or another. However, I think it is more likely they were Cryptics than WS sprens. Elhokar is even less fitting as a WS than he is as a LW.

 

 

The bond must have been forming for a while before he was able to see them - think of Jasnah or Shallan's experience. I wonder how Pattern never caught of glimpse on them or may be didn't mention it? I somehow doubt one honorspren can scare away a bunch of Cryptics, they aren't enemies. And we don't know if it was a coincidence - Elhokar started sinking into wine and whining too fast in WoR. When did he stop seeing them? What did he do? Sure, he started deluding himself he'd figure out how to be a hero with Kal's help, but was it really then when the shadows go away? Or did they disappear after Szeth's visit? Odium('s spren?) was basically following him on his feet, may be a non-bonded Radiant spren got scared away or pushed back into Shadesmar? At any rate, I'm inclined to believe Elhokar saw whatever-these-spren-were because there was a bond forming.

 

Disagree. The sprens are attracted to individuals who have extracted themselves through their breaking period by acting in a specific manner. I won't argue as to whether Elhokar is broken or not (which I am not convinced), but his ordeal have not prompt him to behave in a Radian manner.

 

Look at our examples. Kaladin went through his dark period by struggling to protect his squad, by paying to get the new recruits so as to avoid seeing them die as Tien did. Overall, he was protecting them. A Windrunner quality. Shallan went through her dark period by struggling to create better truths for her brothers. Overall, she was being creative. Dalinar went through his dark period by praying to the Way of Kings. Overall, he was becoming more pious. We could most likely extend the analogy to Jasnah and Renarin even considering the lack of arguments provided in text.

 

It is their actions that drawn the sprens, not the fact they were broken, but the fact they managed to be protecting, creative, pious WHILE being broken.

 

Elhokar has gone through his dark period by being more paranoid, more whiny, more impotent. Why would a spren attract itself to him as early as WoK? Why? The clues we have had so far cannot allow us to come with a plausible explanation else than "We are unsure to what attracts the sprens, it could be the examples we have are not representative". Whereas this not false, the facts remain all the flesh-out examples we have so far strongly violates the notion someone as unhealthy, uninspiring and not pro-active could potentially interest a spren. I have read people bringing forward the idea Elhokar has shown an opening when talking to Kal... I disagree it was much of an opening, but admitting it was, then the sprens would have been interested in him AFTER this, not BEFORE. Before, he has done nothing to warrant him a Nahbel bond. Bonding someone is a serious matter for the sprens, they risk a lot by doing so, I would think it logical the sprens would chose someone having a decent chance of making to full Radiant.

 

The only argument against this is the semi-fact stating we cannot claim to know all of the reasons being the sprens choosing. We can't with certitude, but we sure can extrapolate.

 

I do not think they disappear following Szeth visit as Szeth has no interest in Elhokar. I fail to see the link here. I think they went away simply because, after observing Elhokar, they decided that whether he was a good liar, he was not creative, nor anything you would want out of a LW. They just went away bother someone else, assuming they were Cryptics which neither of us is convinced of.

 

 

Seeing what qualities he has will probably be easier in retrospect once we know what we're looking for. And once Elhokar has enough screen time to show us more about himself.

 

I doubt Elhokar will get more screen time than he already has. He is not a major character, he is not even a POV character, and will most likely remain as such. I thus believe there are no hidden truths within Elhokar than those we have glimpsed so far: he is the very spoiled child of a grant king forced to sit on the throne at a young age and as attack the task by being what he has always been, capricious. He was denied something, here respect, and as thus resulted into sulking and complaining. He has never ever lifted a finger to try to be the king his people deserved. Everyone claims he has struggle and failed. I disagree. He has not tried, not at all. He has tried to be seen as grant, but he has not tried to rule, to be make decrees in the interest of people. All he has concerned himself with was how the Highprinces saw him.

 

Look at the hunt! He was a complete idiot and caused the death of 50 good soldier, all this so people could see him take charge of something as insignificant as a hunt. If he truly wanted to prove he was capable, why not march on the Plains? I sincerely doubt Galivar stayed out of ALL battles. But no, he chose a supposedly very safe hunt to try to assess his authority and went with it at the cost of human life. How Dalinar can possibly endorse such behavior is beyond me. Not to mention the king did not seem concerned about those deaths. In fact, the only one who seemed to care in the whole scene was Adolin who relentlessly worked for hours trying to set things right, as opposed to the king who most likely lounged with his court.

 

There is also the fact his own mother fails to see much qualities in him. His mother! Perhaps you will disagree with me, but when a mother has a hard time respecting her own child, it speaks at length on the same child.

 

Elhokar has his deep truths he hidden behind comforting lies and I think we agree that could draw a Cryptic to him. But he also has this determination to be better than he is, to find what he's missing, which could point toward another Order - being resolute in WS trait, nobody said anything about actually succeeding  Kal commented how Elhokar 'kept running', which he realized was more important than his failings. Elhokar is also trying to build a better image for himself and may be (he hasn't said it so far as I recall) wants his kingdom to be stronger and better, too. At least it's easier for me to say he has some building-related mindset than speculated he has some hidden creativity.

 

Elhokar faking the assassination attempt on himself is more about his resolution to make others take his worries seriously than him showing creativity. I'm very interested in analyzing his character in more details, but I'll need a re-read on his scenes and Dalinar's comments, which unfortunately can't happen in the next few days.

 

Determination Elhokar? When has he ever been persistent? In his endeavor to prove there were assassins? That was not resolute, but paranoid and capricious. The actions of a spoiled kid angry its caregiver is not taking heeds to his fantasies. Kids would do this sort of things. For example, a child disliking its food would fake having a stomach ache to justify not eating it (but would suddenly be hungry for the next course ) Or the same child may fake a gag reflex upon eating the undesired food just to give credence to its claim the food in its plate in not edible I am speaking of 4 years old children here. I expect a LOT more from a grown man, so no I cannot link sabotaging his saddle to being "resolute". Not in a thousand years. It's not creative either. Creative would have been if he had fake a true attempt: he cut a saddle girth which Adolin was quick to point out. Dalinar saw through his game easily enough. There is no creativity here.

 

Kaladin's analysis is biased. For the moment he associated Elhokar with Tien, he was bond to be compromised. He has not seen much of Elhokar. And you agree yourself, we have no quotes of Elhokar ever wondering about what was right for his kingdom. If he was truly trying to be a good king for the good of his people, he would have said something along these lines, but no. He only talk about himself and how he was badly viewed. He asked to be a hero! Go back to the first paragraph for my take on "heroes".

[Aleksiel]

He does not want to be a hero so he could be of help to others, he wants to be a hero so people would perceived him as such. This is where I believe Elhokar fails at being a proto-Radiant. He true hero does not try to be a hero, it does not even relinquish in it: it simply acts because it cannot bear the thought of inaction in the face of injustice. Being a hero is not something that can be taught, hence Kaladin's reaction upon being asked such thing.

 

He has never indicated he wanted to be a better king for the shake of his nation: but has has lamented at length on how he wanted to perceived as such.

 

Some textual evidence on this? Where did he say he cared solely on how he was seen?

 

 

 

 

Well no Elhokar is not vain in that sense, but he is concerned about how his people perceived him. He wants to be loved and respected like his father was and vainly believes this is something he could learn. He utterly fails to comprehend the reasons people dislike him are for his lack of insight, his lack of capacity to take actions upon doing what is right. Now the lighteyes and the darkeyes most likely have a very different notion of what is right, but by focusing so much on how he is perceived, Elhokar fails on every front.

 

He never stated he wanted to be better king for his nation, but he has stated he wanted people to see him as they see Kal. He does not want to "improve" himself for the good reasons, he wants to do it for selfish reasons.

 

Selfish reasons? So Dalinar's desire to unite is not selfish? Kaladin's protection is not for his own peace of mind? Every individual has some selfish drive for even seemingly non-selfish things such as having a friend. 

 

Every person wants to be accepted, to see himself in the eyes of others the person what he wishes to be. How could he be a good king if others don't think him one? To measure how good a work he does, he needs to be perceived by others as someone doing a good job. There isn't an objective factual measure for kingship. Sure, we can make up indicators to measure, but what matters most is what the king's subjects think of him. He is only as good a king as people think he is.

 

Same as being an artist - if nobody considers your paintings good and they don't sell, then you are not currently doing a good job. You may die and be praised for your works later on, but while you are alive, your only way outside source of measuring how good an artist you are is through people who value your art. OK, this is not the best example, but hopefully you do see where I'm going with this. There are occupations where you can measure your success only through the eyes of others.

 

 

 

Disagree. The sprens are attracted to individuals who have extracted themselves through their breaking period by acting in a specific manner. I won't argue as to whether Elhokar is broken or not (which I am not convinced), but his ordeal have not prompt him to behave in a Radian manner.

 

Look at our examples. Kaladin went through his dark period by struggling to protect his squad, by paying to get the new recruits so as to avoid seeing them die as Tien did. Overall, he was protecting them. A Windrunner quality. Shallan went through her dark period by struggling to create better truths for her brothers. Overall, she was being creative. Dalinar went through his dark period by praying to the Way of Kings. Overall, he was becoming more pious. We could most likely extend the analogy to Jasnah and Renarin even considering the lack of arguments provided in text.

 

It is their actions that drawn the sprens, not the fact they were broken, but the fact they managed to be protecting, creative, pious WHILE being broken.

 

Elhokar has gone through his dark period by being more paranoid, more whiny, more impotent. Why would a spren attract itself to him as early as WoK? Why? The clues we have had so far cannot allow us to come with a plausible explanation else than "We are unsure to what attracts the sprens, it could be the examples we have are not representative". Whereas this not false, the facts remain all the flesh-out examples we have so far strongly violates the notion someone as unhealthy, uninspiring and not pro-active could potentially interest a spren. I have read people bringing forward the idea Elhokar has shown an opening when talking to Kal... I disagree it was much of an opening, but admitting it was, then the sprens would have been interested in him AFTER this, not BEFORE. Before, he has done nothing to warrant him a Nahbel bond. Bonding someone is a serious matter for the sprens, they risk a lot by doing so, I would think it logical the sprens would chose someone having a decent chance of making to full Radiant.

 

The only argument against this is the semi-fact stating we cannot claim to know all of the reasons being the sprens choosing. We can't with certitude, but we sure can extrapolate.

 

Pattern was dead when Shallan was helping her brothers, she was a former surgebinder at that point, so I don't accept this as an example. For what is worth, I did not perceive Dalinar as broken either, yet he is Bondsmith now, so why not Elhokar as well? It's not like we know what broke Jasnah or Shallan either.

 

May be he failed whatever test the spren had for him, I do not deny that. I am interested in what qualities he expressed to attract a spren in the first place and (if possible) determining the type of spren that would take interest. even for a short while, in Elhokar. I do not argue whether he will be a Radiant.

 

 

 

I do not think they disappear following Szeth visit as Szeth has no interest in Elhokar. I fail to see the link here. I think they went away simply because, after observing Elhokar, they decided that whether he was a good liar, he was not creative, nor anything you would want out of a LW. They just went away bother someone else, assuming they were Cryptics which neither of us is convinced of.

 

So you do agree there was a bond forming? If there was a bond forming, then he had shown enough potential to attract spren and you argue he never did, which contradicts with your acceptance of the presence of a Radiant spren.

 

 

 

He has never ever lifted a finger to try to be the king his people deserved. Everyone claims he has struggle and failed. I disagree. He has not tried, not at all. He has tried to be seen as grant, but he has not tried to rule, to be make decrees in the interest of people. All he has concerned himself with was how the Highprinces saw him.

 

There you go again with this, I simply do not agree. He tries to find the right way to rule, the right decisions. He is not as focused on his image as you argue him to be. He is is at least as worried about his actions as he is for what his actions make him look like.

 

 

 

There is also the fact his own mother fails to see much qualities in him. His mother! Perhaps you will disagree with me, but when a mother has a hard time respecting her own child, it speaks at length on the same child.

 

Navani is not a particularly good mother. Jasnah didn't want her, Elhokar doesn't listen to her. Overall, Navani did not do a great job as a mother and her inability to connect to either of her children speaks poorly of her. 

 

 

 

Determination Elhokar? When has he ever been persistent? In his endeavor to prove there were assassins? That was not resolute, but paranoid and capricious. 

 

This is once again more about definition of words. It was paranoid and capricious (typical WS according to in-world WoR), but he has been very persistent in his efforts (and failures) to be (seen as) a better king.

 

As I said, I'll need a re-read before I draw additional conclusions and provide textual evidence.

[maxal]

Some textual evidence on this? Where did he say he cared solely on how he was seen?

 

"A hero," the king said, waving flippantly. "Everyone loves you, bridgeman. You saved Dalinar, you fought the Shardbearers, you came back after failing into the storming chasm! How do you do it? How do you know?"

 

He wants to be a hero and believe there is a recipe, but moreover he does not express any concern for his cousins, a strong point in his disfavor (to my eyes). He miss the whole point of Kaladin's heroic actions, which were not to fight down Shardbearers, but to save Adolin's life. Renarin would have most likely be left alone, but without Kaladin, Adolin was dead and gone.

 

There is also the "Everyone loves you". To me, it speaks at length of Elhokar strong desire to be loved and admired.

 

"My father could rule even the likes of Sadeas - men loved Galivar, feared him, and served him all at once. I can't even get a darkeyes to obey a command to come visit the palace! Why doesn't this work? What do I have to do?"

Kaladin stepped back, shocked at the frankness. "Why are you asking me this, Your Majesty?"

"Because you know the secret," the king said, still pacing. "I've seen how your men regard you; I've heard how people speak of you, You're a hero, bridgeman." He stopped, then walking up to Kaladin, taking him by the arms. "Can you teach me?"

Kaladin regarded him baffled.

"I want to be a king like my father was," Elhokar said. "I want to lead men, and I want them to respect me"

 

 

Again. He clearly states it here. He wants people to regard him like they used to regard his father, like they regard Kaladin. Where has he expressed concern for the people he is ruling? It is all about how he is seen. Now we can argue as to whether this is selfish or not, but the fact remain Elhokar is centered on his position as a king as opposed to the good treatment of his subjects. Good kings worry about those they rule, not about how they view them.

 

 

Selfish reasons? So Dalinar's desire to unite is not selfish? Kaladin's protection is not for his own peace of mind? Every individual has some selfish drive for even seemingly non-selfish things such as having a friend.

 

You're stretching it. Selflessness is ultimately impossible as each person always have something to gain upon a chosen course of actions, were it be something as intangible as peace of mind. However, upon deciding is an action is more selfish than not, we have to take into consideration all the implications. What does Kaladin have to gain by protecting his men? Peace of mind. What does he have to lose? His life. He is putting much more on the balance then he is receiving.

 

Dalinar's desire to unite is slightly selfish as he strove to do it, at first, in order to save keep his brother's dream and legacy. However, after having the visions, he came to believe it had to be done for the shake of the nation. What is at stakes for him? Power to be the leading figure, true, except Dalinar does not want this. What does he have to lose? Everything. He endangers everything to achieve his goal: his princedom, those under him, his son.

 

What is in the balance for Elhokar? Be viewed as a good king. Where does he try to do anything for any other reasons than this?

 

 

Every person wants to be accepted, to see himself in the eyes of others the person what he wishes to be. How could he be a good king if others don't think him one? To measure how good a work he does, he needs to be perceived by others as someone doing a good job. There isn't an objective factual measure for kingship. Sure, we can make up indicators to measure, but what matters most is what the king's subjects think of him. He is only as good a king as people think he is.

 

You are not a good king because people think you are one, you are a good king because your nations is strong and healthy, because your people are thriving. These are the counts upon which we evaluate a king's work, not based on the biased opinion of nobility.

 

 

Pattern was dead when Shallan was helping her brothers, she was a former surgebinder at that point, so I don't accept this as an example. For what is worth, I did not perceive Dalinar as broken either, yet he is Bondsmith now, so why not Elhokar as well? It's not like we know what broke Jasnah or Shallan either.

 

Actually no. Pattern was not dead, he was not strong, but not dead. Brandon stated she had no severed her bond like Kaladin did. It was still there, even if it did not allow her to do much. She had to re-kink it to surgebind, but it is false to state her bond was non-existent.

 

Dalinar is broken, it was stated how he went through sorrow and everything following Galivar's death. We have no indications on Elhokar, he could be or he could not be, there no strong evidence.

 

 

May be he failed whatever test the spren had for him, I do not deny that. I am interested in what qualities he expressed to attract a spren in the first place and (if possible) determining the type of spren that would take interest. even for a short while, in Elhokar. I do not argue whether he will be a Radiant.

 

 

That's exactly my main issue with the "Elhokar is a proto-Radiant" theory: I cannot find ONE quality worthy of attracting a spren. Anything I have ever read anyone bringing forward some hidden potential spurred out of true speculation more than factual. The truth is Elhokar has not been displaying any quality worthy of Radianhood, worst he has expressed qualities going directly against what we know of Radiants so far.

 

 

So you do agree there was a bond forming? If there was a bond forming, then he had shown enough potential to attract spren and you argue he never did, which contradicts with your acceptance of the presence of a Radiant spren.

 

No I do not agree. I was merely stating that, in the eventuality I am being wrong and these indeed are Cyrptics trying to bond him, they may have changed their mind in between. I do not believe Elhokar, as he is, had shown sufficient potential to attract a spren, but then again Cryptics were attracted to a 10 years old girl. It could be they do not view potential, but simply lies, which hardly is a quality. It is not the lying that got Shallan her bond, it is the truths she created while lying, but it is the lying that attracted Pattern. Cryptics could have been attracted to the lies around Elhokar, but he lacked the ability to transform them into a truth. I do not believe they were installing a bond: at the very best, they were studying him, but he never had a bond. For him to have one would defy everything we have come to assume pertaining Radiant, which could be true, but using the facts at end, right now, I find it doubtful.

 

 

There you go again with this, I simply do not agree. He tries to find the right way to rule, the right decisions. He is not as focused on his image as you argue him to be. He is is at least as worried about his actions as he is for what his actions make him look like.

 

The right way to rule so that people would view him as they viewed Galivar. Again, not necessarily a bad way to think, but not one I would link to the Radiants.

 

 

Navani is not a particularly good mother. Jasnah didn't want her, Elhokar doesn't listen to her. Overall, Navani did not do a great job as a mother and her inability to connect to either of her children speaks poorly of her.

 

We do not know why Jasnah rejected Navani, but Jasnah is depicted as a strongly emotionally detached individual. It could be she hated being catered for. We do not know how she connects with Elhokar, but Adolin responds very positively to her, enough to associate her with his own mother. She was also shown to be thoughtful and affectionate with him. Dalinar praised the fact she knew her son well. She was sweet with Renarin as well when he asked questions. Why would she go to this much trouble for her nephews and not her own children? You are projecting here.

 

 

This is once again more about definition of words. It was paranoid and capricious (typical WS according to in-world WoR), but he has been very persistent in his efforts (and failures) to be (seen as) a better king.

 

As I said, I'll need a re-read before I draw additional conclusions and provide textual evidence.

 

Then again we may have to agree to disagree (are you really disagreeing with me or just playing devil's advocate ). Elhokar seemed to be rather non-persistent in his effort, never sticking long enough with a position (soft, hard, careful, listening, independent) to fish any reward. He tries one approach and upon meeting difficulties, he goes to another approach. Quite the contrary with being persistent.

 

There is not much on Elhokar... Won't take long to read

[Aleksiel]

"A hero," the king said, waving flippantly. "Everyone loves you, bridgeman. You saved Dalinar, you fought the Shardbearers, you came back after failing into the storming chasm! How do you do it? How do you know?"

 

He wants to be a hero and believe there is a recipe, but moreover he does not express any concern for his cousins, a strong point in his disfavor (to my eyes). He miss the whole point of Kaladin's heroic actions, which were not to fight down Shardbearers, but to save Adolin's life. Renarin would have most likely be left alone, but without Kaladin, Adolin was dead and gone.

 

There is also the "Everyone loves you". To me, it speaks at length of Elhokar strong desire to be loved and admired.

 

"My father could rule even the likes of Sadeas - men loved Galivar, feared him, and served him all at once. I can't even get a darkeyes to obey a command to come visit the palace! Why doesn't this work? What do I have to do?"

Kaladin stepped back, shocked at the frankness. "Why are you asking me this, Your Majesty?"

"Because you know the secret," the king said, still pacing. "I've seen how your men regard you; I've heard how people speak of you, You're a hero, bridgeman." He stopped, then walking up to Kaladin, taking him by the arms. "Can you teach me?"

Kaladin regarded him baffled.

"I want to be a king like my father was," Elhokar said. "I want to lead men, and I want them to respect me"

 

 

Again. He clearly states it here. He wants people to regard him like they used to regard his father, like they regard Kaladin. Where has he expressed concern for the people he is ruling? It is all about how he is seen. Now we can argue as to whether this is selfish or not, but the fact remain Elhokar is centered on his position as a king as opposed to the good treatment of his subjects. Good kings worry about those they rule, not about how they view them.

 

Actually, you are giving me textual evidence that I consider to be directly in favor of my point 

 

He wants to be a man like his father, someone worthy of respect, someone others would follow. He does not merely wish to be thought a man like his father, he wants to really be one.

 

If he's a good king, his subjects automatically benefit from it. It's true he seems too focused on himself, but what could he actually do for his people? He can't do a thing for them. He has no army, he can barely make the Highprinces pay their soulcasting taxes. At this point, worrying (at least openly) about his people is useless. Plus he basically has no people. He commands noone, but himself. He is not a true king in the meaning of having the powers we usually associate with monarchy. The Highprinces can do as they please and he better lay down, lest they tire of playing subjects.

 

 

 

 

You are not a good king because people think you are one, you are a good king because your nations is strong and healthy, because your people are thriving. These are the counts upon which we evaluate a king's work, not based on the biased opinion of nobility.

 

 

 

Elhokar is in a very delicate situation and worrying about the common people will lead him nowhere. It's the Highprinces and the nobility he needs to win over and only then can Elhokar dare dream to influence anything more than what's he's having for dinner.

 

 

That's exactly my main issue with the "Elhokar is a proto-Radiant" theory: I cannot find ONE quality worthy of attracting a spren. Anything I have ever read anyone bringing forward some hidden potential spurred out of true speculation more than factual. The truth is Elhokar has not been displaying any quality worthy of Radianhood, worst he has expressed qualities going directly against what we know of Radiants so far.

 

No I do not agree. I was merely stating that, in the eventuality I am being wrong and these indeed are Cyrptics trying to bond him, they may have changed their mind in between. I do not believe Elhokar, as he is, had shown sufficient potential to attract a spren, but then again Cryptics were attracted to a 10 years old girl. It could be they do not view potential, but simply lies, which hardly is a quality. It is not the lying that got Shallan her bond, it is the truths she created while lying, but it is the lying that attracted Pattern. Cryptics could have been attracted to the lies around Elhokar, but he lacked the ability to transform them into a truth. I do not believe they were installing a bond: at the very best, they were studying him, but he never had a bond. For him to have one would defy everything we have come to assume pertaining Radiant, which could be true, but using the facts at end, right now, I find it doubtful.

 

Cryptics could have been attracted to the lies around Elhokar, but he lacked the ability to transform them into a truth. I do not believe they were installing a bond: at the very best, they were studying him, but he never had a bond. For him to have one would defy everything we have come to assume pertaining Radiant, which could be true, but using the facts at end, right now, I find it doubtful.

 

 

Then we disagree here. I think they were there because he was beginning to bond with one of them. How would you explain his awareness of the spren presence if not for a bond? There were Cryptics around Jasnah and Vargo too and only Shallan did see glimpses of them.

 

 

 

The right way to rule so that people would view him as they viewed Galivar. Again, not necessarily a bad way to think, but not one I would link to the Radiants.

 

He clearly states he wants to BE a man like Gavilar, not only be viewed as one. You just hate him too much 

 

 

We do not know why Jasnah rejected Navani, but Jasnah is depicted as a strongly emotionally detached individual. It could be she hated being catered for. We do not know how she connects with Elhokar, but Adolin responds very positively to her, enough to associate her with his own mother. She was also shown to be thoughtful and affectionate with him. Dalinar praised the fact she knew her son well. She was sweet with Renarin as well when he asked questions. Why would she go to this much trouble for her nephews and not her own children? You are projecting here.

 

I really don't think her a good mother, but that's not relevant enough, so I'll drop it.

 

 

 

Then again we may have to agree to disagree (are you really disagreeing with me or just playing devil's advocate   ). Elhokar seemed to be rather non-persistent in his effort, never sticking long enough with a position (soft, hard, careful, listening, independent) to fish any reward. He tries one approach and upon meeting difficulties, he goes to another approach. Quite the contrary with being persistent.

 

There is not much on Elhokar... Won't take long to read 

 

I occasionally play the devil's advocate, always makes for a good discussion. Here not so much as I really think at one point Elhokar did something to catch the attention of a Radiant spren or at least I'll be of this opinion until a more fitting explanation is provided.

[Meg]

At first I apologize in advance if what I want to say is already said, but at one point or the other I stopped reading. 

 

Though it's not really topic in this thread I'd like to point out that I love Renarin. And this because of his personality. Shy but observant, timed but with ambitions. And he's loyal and faithful.

 

About Elhokar I'd like to throw a few thoughts in: Supposedly he had a lush life during his youth, though hopefully Gavilar trained him to once be his heir. But then Gavilar was a man with a grand reputation. Even if he would have died of old age I think it wouldn't have been easy for any heir to follow, even less with the events that happened. 

Elhokar is a young king of a just recently united kingdom. Somewhere in The Way of Kings it's said that the first generation has the largest problems with keeping such a kingdom running. That's one point. Another is, that Elhokar being the king in this reformed Alethkar isn't really part of the War of Reckoning. He doesn't have an own army nor is he to fight over gemhearts. He is forced to live a overly secured life, kept at distance from any danger.

 

Shortly said: He was thrown in his office by misfortune to lead a war where he mustn't participate and at the same time everyone would compare him to his father. My conclusion is, that he does not only care about his image but to fit in the heritage of his father.

[maxal]

Actually, you are giving me textual evidence that I consider to be directly in favor of my point 

 

Well I guess our interpretation must differed... I have very carefully chosen those extracts

 

 

 

He wants to be a man like his father, someone worthy of respect, someone others would follow. He does not merely wish to be thought a man like his father, he wants to really be one.

 

If he's a good king, his subjects automatically benefit from it. It's true he seems too focused on himself, but what could he actually do for his people? He can't do a thing for them. He has no army, he can barely make the Highprinces pay their soulcasting taxes. At this point, worrying (at least openly) about his people is useless. Plus he basically has no people. He commands noone, but himself. He is not a true king in the meaning of having the powers we usually associate with monarchy. The Highprinces can do as they please and he better lay down, lest they tire of playing subjects.

 

Yes but I do think he is being side-tracked. He wants to be seen as grant as Galivar, but he forgot is father built his reputation through years of hard work. He did not magically became Galivar the king.

 

A good king for whom?

 

"Or you could do what is best for Alethkar," Kaladin said, "and step down".

 

Kaladin is the one to actually bring forward the real issue at stakes: the nation, the people. You state Elhokar has no men to command, no power save his name: it is all there for him to grab. He wants an army, then he should commander one: use his authority as king to develop himself one. Each princedom would be warranted to give him a few men for the king's army. He has more power than he thinks he does, but he is so sidetrack about assassins and how people view him to actually use it, but this is beside the point. I do believe that to be a Radiant, you need to think above yourselves and Elhokar has failed that test.

 

 

Then we disagree here. I think they were there because he was beginning to bond with one of them. How would you explain his awareness of the spren presence if not for a bond? There were Cryptics around Jasnah and Vargo too and only Shallan did see glimpses of them.

 

They may have investigated him and, as a result, let themselves known to him. Perhaps they did the same with little Shallan, before Pattern initiated the bond. Pattern does not seem very good at hiding himself. There is no indications that fact he sees them implies one was bonding with him.

 

Or it could be there are NOT Cryptics.

 

 

He clearly states he wants to BE a man like Gavilar, not only be viewed as one. You just hate him too much 

 

You are wrong.  I like to hate him There is a strong distinction between the two :ph34r: Besides, I am really that obvious?

 

 

I occasionally play the devil's advocate, always makes for a good discussion. Here not so much as I really think at one point Elhokar did something to catch the attention of a Radiant spren or at least I'll be of this opinion until a more fitting explanation is provided.

 

I am not rejecting the possibility he may have attracted a spren, but I think it unlikely given what we have seen of him so far. I will therefore not believe he did up until Brandon writes down in bright pink sparkly letters and even then, I may be in denial :ph34r: He can't be a Radiant: he does not fit the mold and if the mold if not what we have been let to believe, than the faith of humanity is in peril... I mean, who would you want at your side while facing a Desolation? Would you truly pick Elhokar??????????

[Aleksiel]

Yes but I do think he is being side-tracked. He wants to be seen as grant as Galivar, but he forgot is father built his reputation through years of hard work. He did not magically became Galivar the king.

 

A good king for whom?

 

"Or you could do what is best for Alethkar," Kaladin said, "and step down".

 

Kaladin is the one to actually bring forward the real issue at stakes: the nation, the people. You state Elhokar has no men to command, no power save his name: it is all there for him to grab. He wants an army, then he should commander one: use his authority as king to develop himself one. Each princedom would be warranted to give him a few men for the king's army. He has more power than he thinks he does, but he is so sidetrack about assassins and how people view him to actually use it, but this is beside the point. I do believe that to be a Radiant, you need to think above yourselves and Elhokar has failed that test.

 

 

Why would the Highprinces agree to this? Can you really imagine anyone, but Dalinar doing it? Sebarial won't care, he'll pay a fine; the others will get suspicious why the king wants an army. Is Elhokar implying they are not loyal? Too risky a request to make. He'll lose more than he could gain. They made some sort of agreement when Alethkar was united and I think keeping the king without a princedom and such was part of the deal. Why would they agree to re-negotiate any aspect of it?

 

The princedoms still fight at their borders, Alethkar has been a united kingdom for just a few years, most people probably don't even think themselves king's subjects. I do not see the Highprinces agreeing and it's a dangerous request to make - he still won't have enough to make a difference, and will just end up with a bunch of angry nobles and a small unreliable force.

 

 

 

Or it could be there are NOT Cryptics.

 

They could totally not be Cryptics, however very few spren have trouble hiding from people. Basically only Pattern can't completely hide from plain sight, so if they aren't Cryptics, it just reinforces the theory of Elhokar seeing a spren that was attempting to bond with him; after all surgebinders do see their spren. 

 

 

 

You are wrong.  I like to hate him   There is a strong distinction between the two       Besides, I am really that obvious?

 

You've written it so many times only the newest members of the forum might have missed it; I dare say it's common knowledge     

 

 

 

I am not rejecting the possibility he may have attracted a spren, but I think it unlikely given what we have seen of him so far. I will therefore not believe he did up until Brandon writes down in bright pink sparkly letters and even then, I may be in denial     

 

I'd definitely deny Brandon ever writing in bright pink sparkly letters 

 

 

 

He can't be a Radiant: he does not fit the mold and if the mold if not what we have been let to believe, than the faith of humanity is in peril... I mean, who would you want at your side while facing a Desolation? Would you truly pick Elhokar??????????

 

The spren could benefit greatly from having the king of the most powerful country bonded. It'll make Alethkar a safe heaven for surgebinders; as in Nale won't be allowed to legally prosecute them and surgebinders from other countries might hear the word and go to join the king.

 

You pointed how often Elhokar changes what he does, however he changes the means to achieve his goal, and the said goal remains the same - to be a man like his father, to be a better kind. He's very resolute to find the right way. He's also supressing all realizations of his own failures and finding comfort in lies. But that's basically all I have until the re-read. However, he's supposed to have just a tiny bit of potential anyway - enough to draw a spren, but too little to keep it.

[maxal]

Why would the Highprinces agree to this? Can you really imagine anyone, but Dalinar doing it? Sebarial won't care, he'll pay a fine; the others will get suspicious why the king wants an army. Is Elhokar implying they are not loyal? Too risky a request to make. He'll lose more than he could gain. They made some sort of agreement when Alethkar was united and I think keeping the king without a princedom and such was part of the deal. Why would they agree to re-negotiate any aspect of it?

 

The princedoms still fight at their borders, Alethkar has been a united kingdom for just a few years, most people probably don't even think themselves king's subjects. I do not see the Highprinces agreeing and it's a dangerous request to make - he still won't have enough to make a difference, and will just end up with a bunch of angry nobles and a small unreliable force.

 

Alright. Perhaps they would not agree to this, but it does not change the fact Elhokar is not thinking outside the box here.

 

 

They could totally not be Cryptics, however very few spren have trouble hiding from people. Basically only Pattern can't completely hide from plain sight, so if they aren't Cryptics, it just reinforces the theory of Elhokar seeing a spren that was attempting to bond with him; after all surgebinders do see their spren. 

 

I believe there is a quote, somewhere, stating not all sprens were equal when it came to hiding themselves... Pattern, clearly, is not so good. Syl is good. Glys and Ivory appear to be very secretive. However, we have not seen ALL sprens... We have NOT seen sprens for: Willshapers, Skybreakers, Stonewards and Dustbringers. If there are very secretive sprens, then it is quite probable there are very out-going and visible ones.

 

You've written it so many times only the newest members of the forum might have missed it; I dare say it's common knowledge     

 

Are you implying I would let something as trivial as my feelings towards a given character cloud my judgement? How dare you.... :ph34r: But no matter how I feel about him, the evidence against him is there

 

 

I'd definitely deny Brandon ever writing in bright pink sparkly letters 

 

He may have too, if it comes to Elhokar :ph34r:

 

 

The spren could benefit greatly from having the king of the most powerful country bonded. It'll make Alethkar a safe heaven for surgebinders; as in Nale won't be allowed to legally prosecute them and surgebinders from other countries might hear the word and go to join the king.

 

You pointed how often Elhokar changes what he does, however he changes the means to achieve his goal, and the said goal remains the same - to be a man like his father, to be a better kind. He's very resolute to find the right way. He's also supressing all realizations of his own failures and finding comfort in lies. But that's basically all I have until the re-read. However, he's supposed to have just a tiny bit of potential anyway - enough to draw a spren, but too little to keep it.

 

Except this king will never be powerful nor will he ever manage to unite them. I just cannot see it. The sprens should wish for Dalinar to be king: he is the logical choice.

 

I tend to see resolute as sticking to one thing up until it runs dry as opposed to jump around on many things the minute the first one proves difficult. Whatever potential he may have had, I am glad we agree it was tiny

[skaa]

I am not rejecting the possibility he may have attracted a spren, but I think it unlikely given what we have seen of him so far. I will therefore not believe he did up until Brandon writes down in bright pink sparkly letters and even then, I may be in denial :ph34r: He can't be a Radiant: he does not fit the mold and if the mold if not what we have been let to believe, than the faith of humanity is in peril... I mean, who would you want at your side while facing a Desolation? Would you truly pick Elhokar??????????

Ask Invia if she'd pick a Willshaper to be by her side during a Desolation. Ask a Windrunner if he'd like to spend a Desolation with a Skybreaker. Ask a common superstitious peasant if he'd like to sit next to a red-eyed Dustbringer, or a future-seeing Truthwatcher.

Saying that you don't think Elhokar is going to be a Radiant is one thing. Saying that him becoming a Radiant will somehow contradict what we know of Radiants is quite another. I'd like to remind you that all the Radiants were broken in some way. With all the ways a person can be broken, you can take any Radiant, any Radiant at all, and you'll find people who'll say he or she is not "worthy" of honor and should not have been a Radiant. Those people, being blinded by their preconceptions, will of course be wrong. Perhaps it might therefore be wise to open one's mind just a little here, eh?

I'm not saying it's wrong to believe a character won't be a Radiant. I'm saying it's unwise to pretend you know enough of the character's inner nature, or Brandon's own intentions for that character, to say such things like "He can't be a Radiant: he does not fit the mold and if the mold is not what we have been led to believe, then the fate of humanity is in peril."

I mean, really? Seriously, we get it. You don't think Elhokar is Radiant-material. You don't think he will ever change his stupid ways. That's fine. Now can you please let other people make the opposite speculation in good conscience without fear of offending you, if you would be so kind? Thanks.

Edited February 2, 2015 by skaa

[maxal]

...

 

I see you have edited the original message which I was unfortunate enough to read. I will nonetheless point to you my entire post expressed MY opinion, MY interpretation, MY speculation and never, ever have I implied to detain the absolute truth in this matter. I believe I was rather clear in the matter, but next time I feel like writing down my mind, I will use bright pink sparkly letters to make sure nobody ever thinks my ramblings are anything else then a personal opinion on the matter at ends.

 

For the rest of your post, I feel I must thank you. Thank you for remembering me why I decided to never post an opinion ever again in this section of the forum. Rest assure I will leave you to discuss with people who think like you, who believe like you, who agree with you, who interpret the text at hand like you and in the advent they don't, who won't be so obnoxious as to state it in what you interpret as a forceful or offensive manner.

 

 

I would also advise you not to put words into the mouth of my interlocutors unless they have specifically asked you to do so. I feel they are grown-up enough to state their discomfort if need be.

 

That will be all for me. I will not pollute this section any longer as to no matter what I write or how I write it, it will always be deemed offending.

[skaa]

Guys, feel free to downvote my stupid post above. For what it's worth, maxal, I was only reacting to that small part, not your discussion with Aleksiel in general. But that doesn't change the fact that I was a total jerk. Sorry.

*bows head in shame*

Edited February 2, 2015 by skaa

[dvoraen]

I think Elhokar needs one or two things, which are both possible in the third book:

 

- The realization that Pattern resembles what he's been seeing lurking nearby, and that Pattern represents Honor (and/or Cultivation), not Odium.  Elhokar had just arrived at Urithiru, and likely has not had direct contact with Shallan since her public reveal as a Surgebinder.  Adolin has possibly had direct contact with Pattern, however.

 

- His sister's knowledge, experience, and research.  I'm willing to put money down that Jasnah can't progress as a Radiant without being more willing to work with others, something she apparently has a tendency to not do.  She's secretive, reluctant to take on wards, and 'plays with danger', as her mother put it.  Shallan was probably Jasnah's catalyst for change in this matter, which is a part of her development (understanding people, herself most of all).

Edited February 6, 2015 by dvoraen

[Perrin Aybara]

What's wrong with Willshapers, huh? You wanna' fight? I'll teleport away from your sword and use Cohesion to pass my blade directly through your Shardplate into your gullet. What now??!!

This is in response to: Skaa, on page two, at the bottom; the quotes are glitching for me right now.

Edited February 27, 2015 by TheWillshaper

[Shattered]

Someone pointed out somewhere (I can't remember where) that he may have drained the gemstones in his own shardplate by instinctively drawing in the stormlight.  I think this is possible...but Dalinar never seems to have this problem...

Yeah, but Dalinar was never on the path to becoming a Radiant until he bonded with the Stormfather intentionally.

[hoser]

Yeah, but Dalinar was never on the path to becoming a Radiant until he bonded with the Stormfather intentionally.

Actually, I think he clearly was on the path.

• The first two books were full of references to how he had changed to be more honorable. 
• He was following the codes and studying the in-world WoK. 
• In the chasmfiend hunt, his actions were incredible. 
• In the chasmfiend hunt and when he saved Kaladin's squad, his armor seemed to glow.
• The surgeon remarked that his ability to fight considering the scars he had was incredible. 
• When he healed with stormlight at the end, he remembered that it had happened before. 

I wonder whether Dalinar could have drained the gems in Elhokar's suit. 

Edited February 27, 2015 by hoser

[skaa]

What's wrong with Willshapers, huh? You wanna' fight? I'll teleport away from your sword and use Cohesion to pass my blade directly through your Shardplate into your gullet. What now??!!

This is in response to: Skaa, on page two, at the bottom

I have no Plate or Blade, but you don't frighten me you silly Wheelshipper Kniggit! Your mother was a chull and your father smelt of rocklilies! Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!

(That was a Monty Python reference. Please do not be offend.)

Edited February 27, 2015 by skaa

[Darkness]

Actually, I think he clearly was on the path.

• The first two books were full of references to how he had changed to be more honorable. 
• He was following the codes and studying the in-world WoK. 
• In the chasmfiend hunt, his actions were incredible. 
• In the chasmfiend hunt and when he saved Kaladin's squad, his armor seemed to glow.
• The surgeon remarked that his ability to fight considering the scars he had was incredible. 
• When he healed with stormlight at the end, he remembered that it had happened before. 

I wonder whether Dalinar could have drained the gems in Elhokar's suit. 

Ooo! One question though... I get that he was standing right overtop of Elhokar when he held the Chasmfiend's leg up and he was within range to inhale that Stormlight, why wouldn't he have drained his own gems before Elhokar's? And it definitely would have helped if they had remarked that the spheres in their pouches were dun after

[hoser]

I totally agree.  There are a ton of problems with the idea of Dalinar draining the gems in Elhokar's suit. 

Ooo! One question though... I get that he was standing right overtop of Elhokar when he held the Chasmfiend's leg up and he was within range to inhale that Stormlight, why wouldn't he have drained his own gems before Elhokar's? And it definitely would have helped if they had remarked that the spheres in their pouches were dun after

For example:  Elhokar is wearing his armor, so it is sort of his investiture.  Investiture tends to interfere with other investiture.  So how could Dalinar drain Elhokar's suit?  As you point out, Dalinar's suit should be drained first and then any spheres he was carrying. 

 

It just seems like a sketchy plot to put drained spheres in Elhokar's suit.  What are the chances that it would matter?  That and Dalinar is clearly consuming investiture. 

 

As always, I know nothing. 

[natc]

Maybe Elohkar accidentally used his surgebinding? It can potentially consume his stormlight faster than just inhaling it and holding your breath for enhanced strength and healing. Was anything suspicious in that scene besides the falling?

[hoser]

Maybe Elohkar accidentally used his surgebinding? It can potentially consume his stormlight faster than just inhaling it and holding your breath for enhanced strength and healing. Was anything suspicious in that scene besides the falling?

When I review the excerpt, nothing that Elhokar does seems magical to me.  Brave, maybe foolhardy and willful, but not exceptionally skilled or powerful. 

“Meet your enemy, monster!” Elhokar bellowed. Dalinar turned. The king had found his mount and had managed to get it under control. Vengeance wasn’t a Ryshadium, but the animal was of the best Shin stock. Astride the animal, Elhokar charged, Blade held above his head. Well, there was no forbidding him the fight. He should be all right in his Plate so long as he kept moving. “The legs, Elhokar!” Dalinar shouted. Elhokar ignored him, charging directly for the beast’s chest. Dalinar cursed, heeling Gallant as the monster swung. Elhokar turned at the last moment, leaning low, ducking under the blow. The chasmfiend’s claw hit stone with a cracking sound. It roared in anger at missing Elhokar, the sound echoing through the chasms. The king veered toward Dalinar, riding past him in a rush. “I’m distracting it, you fool. Keep attacking!” “I have the Ryshadium!” Dalinar yelled back at him. “I’ll distract— I’m faster!” Elhokar ignored him again. Dalinar sighed. Elhokar, characteristically , could not be contained. Arguing would only cost more time and more lives, so Dalinar did as he’d been told. ... He called to the king, who rode— Blade held out to the side— a short distance away. The king glanced at him, but obviously didn’t hear. As the chasmfiend loomed in the background , Elhokar wheeled Vengeance in a sharp right turn toward Dalinar. There was a soft snap, and suddenly the king—and his saddle— went tumbling through the air. The horse’s quick turn had caused the saddle girth to break. A man in Shardplate was heavy and put a great strain on both his mount and saddle. Dalinar felt a spike of fear, and he reined in Gallant. Elhokar slammed to the ground, dropping his Shardblade. The weapon reverted to mist, vanishing. It was a protection from keeping a Blade from being taken by your enemies; they vanished unless you willed them to stay when releasing them.

“Elhokar!” Dalinar bellowed . The king rolled, cape wrapping around his body, then came to rest. He lay dazed for a moment ; the armor was cracked on one shoulder, leaking Stormlight. The Plate would have cushioned the fall. He’d be all right..... “Get to safety!” Dalinar yelled to the king as he charged past . Elhokar stumbled to his feet and nodded. Dalinar moved in. He had to distract the beast long enough for Elhokar to get away. ... Hopefully, Elhokar had— “Are you a god!” Elhokar bellowed. Dalinar groaned, looking over his shoulder. The king had not fled. He strode toward the beast, hand to the side. “I defy you, creature!” Elhokar screamed. “I claim your life! They will see their gods crushed, just as they will see their king dead at my feet! I defy you!” Damnation’s own fool! Dalinar thought, rounding Gallant. Elhokar’s Shardblade reformed in his hands, and he charged toward the monster’s chest, his cracked shoulder leaking Stormlight. He got close and swung at the beast’s torso, cutting free a piece of chitin—like a person’s hair or nails, it could be cut by a Blade. Then Elhokar slammed his weapon into the monster’s breast, seeking its heart. The beast roared and shook, knocking Elhokar free. The king barely kept hold of his Blade. The beast spun. ... Dalinar turned and ran toward Elhokar, Oathbringer misting into existence in his waiting hand. Elhokar continued to hack at the beast’s lower torso, and sections of flesh blackened and died when the Shardblade struck. If he rammed the Shardblade in just right, he could stop the heart or lungs, but that would be difficult while the beast was upright. Adolin— ... rolled lethargically, hands moving. He was alive. No time to think about him now. Elhokar was alone. The beast struck, pounding the ground beside the king, knocking him off his feet. His blade vanished and Elhokar fell face-first on the stones. ...

Adolin shook his head, dazed. ... As his vision lost its fuzziness, he saw that the king was down, and his armor was cracked from the blow he’d taken earlier. The chasmfiend raised a massive claw, preparing to slam it down. ... Dalinar charged toward the king, moving with a speed and grace no man— not even one wearing Shardplate— should be able to manage. He leaped over a rock shelf, then ducked and skidded beneath a claw swinging for him. Other men thought they understood Shardblades and Shardplate, but Dalinar Kholin… at times, he proved them all children. Dalinar straightened and leaped— still moving forward— cresting by inches a second claw that smashed apart the rocky shelf behind him. It was all just a moment. A breath. The third claw was falling toward the king, and Dalinar roared, leaping forward. He dropped his Blade— it hit the ground and puffed away— as he skidded beneath the falling claw. He raised his hands and— And he caught it. He bent beneath the blow, going down on one knee, and the air rang with a resounding clang of carapace against armor. But he caught it. Stormfather! Adolin thought, watching his father stand over the king, bowed beneath the enormous weight of a monster many times his size. ... Dalinar held back the claw and matched its strength, a figure in dark, silvery metal that almost seemed to glow. The beast trumpeted above, and Dalinar bellowed back a powerful, defiant yell.... The Plate of Dalinar’s gauntlets and shoulders began to crack, webs of light moving down the ancient metal. Adolin finally shook himself into motion. I have to help! His Shardblade formed in his hand and he scrambled to the side and sheared through the leg nearest to him. There was a crack in the air. With so many legs down, the beast’s other legs couldn’t hold its weight, particularly when it was trying so hard to crush Dalinar. The remaining legs on its right side snapped with a sickening crunch, spraying out violet ichor, and the beast toppled to the side. The ground shook, nearly knocking Adolin to his knees. Dalinar tossed aside the now-limp claw, Stormlight from the many cracks steaming above him. Nearby, the king picked himself up off the ground— it had been mere seconds since he’d fallen. Elhokar stumbled to his feet, looking at the fallen beast. Then he turned to his uncle, the Blackthorn.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 205). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[Darkness]

That excerpt actually suggests that some of Dalinar's 'specialness' came into play before he was very close to Elhokar. "Dalinar charged toward the king, moving with a speed and grace no man— not even one wearing Shardplate— should be able to manage."

 

One other thing...

"He got close and swung at the beast’s torso, cutting free a piece of chitin—like a person’s hair or nails, it could be cut by a Blade."

Who by-a-Horneater's-pointed-toes would try cutting their nails with a storming Shardblade?!