Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
blad3mast3r

Thoughts on Elhokar

80 posts in this topic

So,

 

Elhokar talks about how "they watch him from mirrors" "symbols, twisted, inhuman"

 

So he's seeing cryptics.

 

This could mean several things:

 

#1 Elhokar is becoming a Lightweaver.

 

#2 His blade is the Lightweaver honor blade, which the Cryptics are interested in

 

#3 other reason the cryptics are watching him/ability to see spren otherwise.

 

#4 ….He is insane.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never really thought about it. Personally I thought Elhokar was paranoid. Pattern said he was the only Cryptic to come to the material realm. I don't think his Shardblade is an Honorblade because Szeth would have noticed it when he fought Gavilar. Maybe he is like Rock and can see Spren. A lot to digest I Know!!!

Nice theory though!!! Kings to you for being original!!

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1) it would seem that Elhokar may be attracting spren that are only visible by him, if theses are Cryptics what lie has Elhokar been living to attract them. Maybe it is from the way he acts like a king lying to himself that he is king?

 

2) From the way Syl reacted to the Honorblade that Kaladin collected, I wonder if this lie about his blade would be enough to attract a cryptic. If not then i think they would tend to veer away from the Honorblades

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Cryptics are never described as Twisted and Inhuman. They do have heads of lines. My personal theory is that those were a (Breed? Species?) Of Odium spren. That's why they fled when Kaladin and his Honourspren was near.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not believe Pattern ever says he was the only Cryptic sent over. Since Mr. Sanderson has said that Kaladin has met two Lightweavers, it seems reasonable that there's at least one more.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I always thought that Elhokar was on his way to become a Radiant (and only with this post do I realize that no one else thought that). My reasons were kinda flat, basically the fact that he could see what I thought were spren, and that he could be considered "broken" by feeling that he is an inadequate king and successor to his father. 

 

The Cryptics are never described as Twisted and Inhuman. They do have heads of lines. My personal theory is that those were a (Breed? Species?) Of Odium spren. That's why they fled when Kaladin and his Honourspren was near.

This is a cool theory. That being said I think that Pattern could be considered twisted and inhuman, kinda like the drawing that Shallan made in WoK. Also I don't remember if I made this up in my head or not but wasn't there a line somewhere that suggested Cryptics and Honorsprens didn't get along?

Edited by Matt Snow
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think honorspren and highspren don't get along, or maybe just those orders of KR.

 

Elhokar is probably seeing spren, but there are 6 other orders of KR whose spren we have no idea about. It could also be any of those.

Edited by Redbird3000
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone pointed out somewhere (I can't remember where) that he may have drained the gemstones in his own shardplate by instinctively drawing in the stormlight.  I think this is possible...but Dalinar never seems to have this problem...

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This topic has come up a few times before - here's a quick summary of my thoughts: I think it's more likely than not that those were Cryptics. Elhokar makes no reference to them in WoR except to say that they're not showing up any more - Elhokar thinks that it's due to Kaladin but it's also possible that it's due to Shallan re-bonding Pattern (timing is close enough). I don't think Cryptics or Odiumspren would be scared off by an honorspren. I suspect that many (but not all) spren types would prefer to bond someone near a Bondsmith or many other Radiants - hence the cluster around Dalinar. It may be the the Cryptics investigated Elhokar to see if he could be a Lightweaver. Maybe they gave up on him (not suitable enough). Maybe he was a backup plan in case Shallan and Pattern didn't work out. It could also be that they were investigating someone around Elhokar and not Elhokar himself.

 

Looking ahead to the next book: It'll be interesting to see Elhokar's reaction to Pattern - this could happen quite early on. We should see Shallan investigating Shadesmar (and Soulcasting) more and may be able to talk to other Cryptics - she could simply ask if they were doing anything with Elhokar and if so why. Elhokar has not been developed much to date and Shallan might just be the right person to help him develop a bit too.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I vaguely remember mention of ongoing political tension between Cryptics and Honorspren.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Syl said that one of her ancestors used to hunt Cryptics, so yeah, if they are hanging around Elhokar, then I could see them running off when Kaladin turned up with Syl.

 

I would also point out that Elhokar sees them in mirrors, not reality, and when Shallan first saw them, they were in her sketches. Again, not in reality.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing what Elhokar's reaction is when he meets Pattern.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Syl said that one of her ancestors used to hunt Cryptics...

Could you give an exact quote? Here's one (from a Stormlight 3 sample chapter) about a relative of Syl hunting a different type of spren, not Cryptics:

“Wow,” Syl said. “Gloomspren.”

Kaladin looked up and noted an unusual spren whipping around him. Long, grey, like a large, tattered streamer of cloth in the wind, it wound around him, fluttering as if in a phantom wind. He’d only seen its like once or twice before.

“Why are they so rare?” Kaladin asked, continuing his hike. The manor was just ahead. “People feel gloomy all the time.”

“Who knows?” Syl said. “Some spren are common. Some are uncommon.” She tapped his shoulder. “I’m pretty sure one of my relatives liked to hunt these things.

“Hunt them?” Kaladin asked. “Like, try to spot them?”

“No. Like you hunt greatshells. Can’t remember her name . . . Anyway, the hunts were grand things. Quite the endeavor.” Syl cocked her head, oblivious to the fact that rain was falling through her form. “What an odd memory.”

***

As for Elhokar, he just doesn't seem to be Lightweaver material to me. Maybe he's a proto-Radiant of a different Order, one that grants the ability to see partially in the Cognitive Realm (e.g. the Willshapers) and therefore see "hidden" spren other than his own. I have no idea why Cryptics would be watching Elhokar, though there were also a bunch of them in Taravangian's castle and I'm sure not all of them were there just because of Shallan.

Edited by skaa
2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that Elhokar's lack of sanity is in doubt, he's definitely off his rocker.

 

However, we shouldn't jump to any other conclusions until we get a better description of his spren.  They could be more ancient than any radiantspren.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's highly improbable for Elhokar to have any Honorblade - his eyes would have changed accordingly like Szeths when summoning Yezrien's Blade. Elhokar has had his for years, I'd think he would have noticed he could surgebind at some point.

 

There were Cryptics around Shallan and Vargo, though it's uncertain which one they were there for. If they were watching Vargo, it's only fitting they keep an eyes on Elhokar.

 

Elhokar talked about moving shadows at one point, which is more like Jasnah's spren and doesn't match Cryptics. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm seeing a lot of things being thrown out there and no sources so, some relevant passages:

They watch me. Always. Waiting. I see their faces in mirrors. Symbols, twisted, inhuman…” -Elkohar Wok Chapter 58[/size]

Above the stiff, high collars, where the creatures’ heads should be, each had a large, floating symbol of twisted design full of impossible angles and geometries. - WoK Chapter 29

These are pretty similar descriptions and the description in Shallan's chapter certainly doesn't sound human and she frequently describes what she sees as "twisted symbols" even in her flashback chapters. It's also interesting to note that whenever Shallan "sees" them in her drawings, they are always in a group, until she actually draws Pattern out in WoR. I find it unlikely that these are separate types of spren if you consider the vast differences in both appearance and behaviour of the 6 sentient spren types we've seen thus far (Comparing Wyndle to Pattern to Ivory to Syl to Ym's spren to the Stormfather, there are almost no similarities). However, we have no idea if the Radiant spren types can be corrupted into voidspren like regular spren (see: stormspren) or what those would look like in the cognitive realm (which is where these descriptions seem to be coming from) So I don't think we can 100% rule that out, although I find it unlikely, personally.
 
I find these descriptions also eerily similar:

“When you came, the shadows went away.”
“The . . . shadows?”
“I saw them in mirrors, in the corners of my eyes. I could swear I even heard them whispering, but you frightened them. I haven’t seen them since." Elhokar to Kaladin, WoR Chapter 80

She passed several pictures of the symbol-headed creatures, some set in this very room. They lurked around her, always. At some times, she thought she saw them in the corners of her eyes. At others, she could hear them whispering. She hadn’t dared speak back to them again. - WoK Chapter 70

To me, the similarity in these two passages clinches that Elhokar was seeing Cryptics. What lies attracted them, we have no way of knowing, especially since their concept of "lie" is vastly different from ours. Perhaps merely the fact that he is "king" when in reality Dalinar has all the power is enough. He's essentially pretending to be something he's actually not - in charge.  As to why they disappear when Kaladin is around, I do not know. Perhaps they are afraid of Syl. I am personally inclined to think that this is a red herring, and that they got scared off by the Voidspren that both Pattern and Syl start mentioning at around this time period. We have no idea how things manifest in the Cognitive Realm, and it's quite possible that while Pattern and Syl are relatively safe by being at least partially bonded, the Cryptics that were around Elhokar might have been in great danger had they stayed.
 
 

“Yes. Patterns . . . we . . . us . . . Worry. One was sent. Me.”

My interpretation of this was that Pattern was sent originally. We know that was 6 years ago. There's no proof whatsoever that no others have been sent in the meantime.  He hasn't had any contact that we're aware of with his own kind (and/or can't remember it yet). In addition, I think it's likely that after Shallan basically killed Pattern after killing her mother, that they sent another representative.
 

“Fine. You mentioned the Cryptics?”
“Yes,” Jasnah said, reaching into the sleeve that hid her safehand and slipping out a folded piece of paper—one of Shallan’s drawings of the symbolheads. “That is their own name for themselves, though we would probably name them liespren. They don’t like the term. Regardless, the Cryptics rule one of the greater cities in Shadesmar. Think of them as the lighteyes of the Cognitive Realm.”
“So this thing,” Shallan said, nodding to the pattern, which was spinning in circles in the center of the cabin, “is like . . . a prince, on their side?”
“Something like that. There is a complex sort of conflict between them and the honorspren. Spren politics are not something I’ve been able to devote much time to.  - WoR Chapter 3

“Lie?” Syl said, aghast. “Kaladin! What do you think I am? A Cryptic?” - Syl, WoR Chapter 9

“There was a Cryptic at the fight,” her voice said softly.
“You mentioned those before, didn’t you? A type of spren?”
“A revolting type.” She paused. “But not evil, I don’t think.” She sounded begrudging. - Kaladin and Syl, WoR Chapter 62

So yes, there is major conflict between honorspren and Cryptics, but I'm pretty sure that's mostly due to opposing natures - honorspren abhor lies. Cryptics find them fascinating. Seems like enough of a fundamental difference in views to have an ongoing conflict.
 
As to honorspren/highspren, there are multiple passages that honorspren only care about what is right regardless of the law and highspren only care about the law regardless of what is right. So some conflict there as well at times, but most often, those two things should theoretically coincide with one another.
 
 

“Cryptics like to plan,” Syl said slowly, as if recalling something long lost. “Yes . . . I remember. They debate and watch and never do anything. But . . .”
“What?” Kaladin asked, rising.
“They’re looking for someone,” Syl said. “I’ve seen the signs. Soon, you might not be alone, Kaladin.” - WoR Chapter 62

This could refer to just Pattern, but since if Syl's seeing the signs that they're "looking for someone" and Pattern has already found Shallan..... it's not out of the realm of possibility for there to be more out searching.
 
 
TL;DR - I think the evidence textually of Shallan and Elhokar's encounters are too strikingly similar to be coincidence and that Elhokar is seeing Cryptics. Whether that means he'll be a lightweaver, I don't know, but so far everyone else who's seen weird sentient spren has begun bonding them. As far as I know, all Brandon questions asking about Elhokar surgebinding or sensing things have been RAFO'd, so take that as you will. It's never been denied, at any rate. As far as we know, honorblades have nothing to do with spren, other than that they copied them and they already seem to know how to do that, so I don't know why him seeing things would imply he had an honorblade.
 
Where are there Cryptics around Vargo? Or are you talking about the epigraph?

9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where are there Cryptics around Vargo? Or are you talking about the epigraph?

 

I don't have the book now, but they were there when Shallan started to draw Vargo in WoK, so they ended up in the picture she tore apart and refused to show.

 

Seeing Cryptics in the mirror hasn't happened to Shallan. If Cryptics are watching Elhokar, it's probably because he's the king. He doesn't have (or at least hasn't show) even a spark of creativity. Although him almost coming to the realization he has failed as a king is exactly the type of a hidden truth a Cryptic would like to hear.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My theory : cryptics checked out Elhokar and decided he wouldn't make a good light weaver so left him again . (at least I really hope this is true)

TBH , I think more likely we'll find Elhokar as a radiant soon.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shlee, thanks for pulling out those quotes, extremely helpful.  I thought I remembered just about all of those, but I wouldn't have been able to search and find the exact references from the books.

 

As for the Cryptics (and I am going to assume that is what they are unless proven otherwise)would flee when Kaladin and Syl arrive: maybe they just wanted to remain hidden.  We know spren can hide from (most) humans when they want, but do we have evidence that they could hide form other spren?  That is, would Syl maybe have been able to see them, and might they not have wanted to avoid that, not out of fear, but out of desire for secrecy?

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe we're overthinking this and they are really just Paranoia spren. =)

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have the book now, but they were there when Shallan started to draw Vargo in WoK, so they ended up in the picture she tore apart and refused to show.

 

Seeing Cryptics in the mirror hasn't happened to Shallan. If Cryptics are watching Elhokar, it's probably because he's the king. He doesn't have (or at least hasn't show) even a spark of creativity. Although him almost coming to the realization he has failed as a king is exactly the type of a hidden truth a Cryptic would like to hear.

 

Oh that's what you were referring to. The first quote I posted is from that exact scene. I'm pretty positive that's because the Cryptics were around Shallan.... after that scene she draws them in a variety of different places and rooms, including one behind Kasbal and several in the middle of a crowd. So, I think they're only relevant to the person "seeing" them.

 

No, but we never see Shallan look in a mirror during this sequence. Also, Shallan's memory-taking skill is unique to her, so I highly doubt that's the only way to see them. That form of cryptic is their cognitive-realm description, Pattern manifests differently in the physical. We have multiple other examples of brief glimpses of the cognitive realm, from Jasnah's first interaction with Ivory to Kaladin's glimpses with Syl, so it's not unlikely that for some reason for Elhokar, it involves mirrors. The whole point of the cognitive realm is that it's subconscious, hence them seeing things in the corners of their eyes and hearing whispers, but nothing direct. A mirror would fit in with that. Physical reality...but not quite

 

We've also never seen Elhokar's private life, so him not showing a spark of creativity at this point is rather irrelevant - we really know next to nothing about him as a person. Also, in Alethi culture, the arts are a feminine pursuit, so he could have a variety of reasons for not ever showing any talent he does possess around other people. 

 

Either way, I'm not saying he's on his way to becoming a lightweaver, although I personally find it likely, merely that I'm positive what he's seeing are Cryptics, and I can't think of any other example we've been given of sentient spren watching/interacting with a person except in relation to the bond and the Nightwatcher's boon/curse thing. I also find it interesting that in every Proto-radiant conversation, there are always people saying "but that person doesn't have the qualities to be a Radiant"  Keep in mind that Shallan killed both her parents, and let her father destroy himself and her family by not telling the truth. Kal, if anything, has the fewest demons. Dalinar was a man prone to drink who once plotted to murder his own brother and take throne/Navani. The whole idea is that they're people who are choosing to become something better. If anything, the people I dislike most in the story should in theory have greater odds of becoming Radiants if they turn themselves around. That puts Elhokar up on the list, because I'd like to chuck him off that balcony. 

 

 

Shlee, thanks for pulling out those quotes, extremely helpful.  I thought I remembered just about all of those, but I wouldn't have been able to search and find the exact references from the books.

 

As for the Cryptics (and I am going to assume that is what they are unless proven otherwise)would flee when Kaladin and Syl arrive: maybe they just wanted to remain hidden.  We know spren can hide from (most) humans when they want, but do we have evidence that they could hide form other spren?  That is, would Syl maybe have been able to see them, and might they not have wanted to avoid that, not out of fear, but out of desire for secrecy?

You're quite welcome :) I cheat though, I have the ebooks on my laptop and a fantastic program called Calibre, which not only is a great free electronic conversion/library management tool (I have over 10,000 books), I can also search individual books for words and phrases. Having a good memory for exact phrases helps a bit though ;)

 

I'd be really curious about the spren-seeing-spren idea, but more from a realmatic viewpoint. The spren Elhokar are seeing are still in the cognitive realm, that is the form Cryptics take there. Pattern and Syl are currently predominantly in the physical, and don't seem to be able to communicate with their brethren in the Cognitive, at least at the current level of bonding. Based on that, I'd think it unlikely that they ran from Syl, since she's in the physical realm at the moment. But that's just my own personal idea. We don't know what's going on with Elhokar, if he stopped doing whatever he was doing to attract them, maybe that's why they disappeared. Or as I mentioned earlier, I think the cognitive realm could have become more dangerous around that time. 

 

Why can't I post without it being ridiculously long?

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Because this forum is infested with Textwallspren?

7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do not believe Pattern ever says he was the only Cryptic sent over. Since Mr. Sanderson has said that Kaladin has met two Lightweavers, it seems reasonable that there's at least one more.

Most people (including myself) believe that Tien, Kaladin's brother, was a proto-lightweaver.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd definitely put Elhokar down as a Willshaper, and thus seeing a different but perhaps similar type of spren to the cryptics. What little we know of the willshapers seems to fit perfectly with his personality:

 

 

“And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiants, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, 'capricious, frustrating, unreliable,' as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.”

 

 

Elhokar is certainly erratic, unreliable and frustrating, but he also shows a degree of understanding of his own limitations, and a determination, or will, to overcome them, eg. his conversation with Kaladin at the barracks. He is also inconsistent of temperament, given to mood swings, but also consistently shows a jovial, almost childlike delight in watching things around him.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd definitely put Elhokar down as a Willshaper, and thus seeing a different but perhaps similar type of spren to the cryptics. What little we know of the willshapers seems to fit perfectly with his personality:

 

 

 

Elhokar is certainly erratic, unreliable and frustrating, but he also shows a degree of understanding of his own limitations, and a determination, or will, to overcome them, eg. his conversation with Kaladin at the barracks. He is also inconsistent of temperament, given to mood swings, but also consistently shows a jovial, almost childlike delight in watching things around him.

I'd always assumed Eshonai should have become a Willshaper if things had gone well, bringing back a bond between spren and the listeners. She has a comet-like spren zipping around her head when she first enters storm form that I mentally associated with her being a proto-Willshaper.

Also, it would be a great irony if Elhokar between a "Willshaper" of all things. Even the title willshaper is basically the reverse of who he is right now. He tries so hard to shape the wills of the Highprinces, but he's basically waving his arms at a highstorm for all the effect he has.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assumed the Willshapers being 'inconsistent in temperament' meant their temperament varied from person to person, not that they were bipolar or terribly moody. I suppose since Elhokar is aware of the spren's presence, there might be a bond forming, otherwise he wouldn't have been the only one noticing them.

 

I don't know which Order I'd prefer for Elhokar - I want to know more about Willshappers, so having one in the next book will give us some perspective of the Order. On the other hand, Elhokar would a very different LW than Shallan is and it'd be interesting to compare. Either way, he still has a long way to go.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.