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Phoenix Signing 1/21


the_archduke

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Didn't the Stormfather comment, either in the conversation with Syl or a conversation with Dalinar, that he was around when Honor was too? Moreover, don't we know that Cultivation isn't dead, and therefore, if the Nightwatcher is a CS, it is all the proof we need that a Shard does not have to be dead to have a CS. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something...

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Didn't the Stormfather comment, either in the conversation with Syl or a conversation with Dalinar, that he was around when Honor was too? Moreover, don't we know that Cultivation isn't dead, and therefore, if the Nightwatcher is a CS, it is all the proof we need that a Shard does not have to be dead to have a CS. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something...

 

Actually we do know that Cultivation isn't dead, there's WoB that Cultivation's holder is still alive. (scratch that misread you as "we don't" instead of "don't we")

 

As for the Stormfather being around at the same time as Honor, there are certain things that indicate that, but it has never been satisfactorily proved, in my opinion, but I'd rather not argue about it.

Edited by WeiryWriter
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Didn't the Stormfather comment, either in the conversation with Syl or a conversation with Dalinar, that he was around when Honor was too?

 

Eshonai specifically indicates that the "Rider of Storms" (the Stormfather) had betrayed her people (for the humans, which would indicate that the Stormfather was around when humans first came to Roshar and came into conflict with the listeners). This indicates he would have been alive pre-Splintering of Honor, though it is by no means a proof since this is conjecture (though very solid conjecture).

 

We should probably bring this discussion to another thread, though.

Edited by Moogle
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So do you go back to the thread in which you want to post it, or something else?

 

Yes, I go back to the thread I was replying to, click "more reply options" at the bottom then look for "view auto saved content". Maybe there's a simpler way though.

 

Back on topic: I liked the background info on the Recreance. I've wondered before how big an impact it had on the world, culturally, economically, politically etc.

 

I smiled at Brandon's computer programming experience and Elantris magic. I've sometimes thought you could liken a well defined magic system to highly specialised scripting languages like SQL or regular expressions (with a god-like entity managing the magic being like the computer).

 

 

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Perhaps the difference is that the Cognitive Shadow of a Shard isn't the same as a that of a person like Kelsier, because its that mix of an original human mind plus a Shard's Intent?  Like the Shadow is more of the Shard than of the human that held it?

 

Another possibility for why the Stormfather seems nothing like Tanavast is there was one topic I saw that speculated that perhaps Tanavast the human survived the Splintering of Honor and the recordings he made for Dalinar were made after he Splintered but before he died?  Obviously total speculation, but if a holder is able to survive after his Shard is gone, even for a time, the question is - does he revert to his original personality, unaltered by the Shard's Intent?  That could explain a lot of discrepancies between how we've seen Tanavast and the Stormfather portrayed.

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ZenBossanova shared this report over on Tor.com in the re-read:

 

 

I went to the Phoenix signing last night and had a great time. And I got some great questions answered. These are paraphrased.

Q: I said since Shallan has a unique ability of Memory from her blended surges, is fighting what Kaladin has?
A: No. His unique ability is "Strength of Squires".

Q: And Jasnah?
A: RAFO

Q: Can Vasher use Stormlight to Awaken things?
A: No, all it does is keep him alive. But he has tried and has not figured out how to awaken things.

Another person asked about the plague in the Pure Lake. Turns out, that was a pathogen introduced by worldhoppers. People on Roshar normally have greater health than elsewhere in the Cosmere because they are more invested (stormlight and all that). This plague was what we call... the common cold.

This last one I got, was really interesting. I asked about predicting High Storms, because I was thinking of making a Stormwarden manual. I figured if Tolkien started with linguistics because he was a word nerd, then what is a math teacher supposed to do?

I asked if knowing the positions/orbits of the moons would be enough to predict the storms. He said not enough. You need the historical records of storms as well because there is a pattern. You need that pattern and the tides, to correctly predict the timing of the storms. He said it was more than a simple beat. I then turned back and asked, "Are you saying the High Storms are music?" He replied, "I didn't say they were music. (emphasis on 'say'). You said that." I figured that was better than a denial or RAFO, so I let it drop.

I am strongly reminded of the Listeners and their rhythms.

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Thanks again Weiry. The clarification on why Rosharans have better immune systems was neat. The Kaladin thing was also interesting, since I figured his bond was a huge part of what allowed his fighting ability what with feeling the air and all. Maybe it's just a Stormlight thing.

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I'm going to post this here as well as editing my original post.  I reread my notes regarding the Nightwatcher: Cultivation question.  

 

My notes say "Nightwatcher: Cultivation is similar to Stormfather: Honor"

 

I think my original post implied he said they were the same thing

Edited by the_archduke
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As a former fan of Naruto, I have no problem with the concept of cognitive shadows existing while the original person is alive. :P (Yeah, I know, it's not a perfect analogy.)

***

So, Windrunners' quirk is that their squires are extra special. I wonder if Windrunner squires can actually use Surges the same way Knights can. Like, imagine if one of Kaladin's squires could use Progression to heal other people's wounds the same way Edgedancers and Truthwatchers do. I guess a possible limitation is that each Squire can only use one Surge instead of two.

***

Brandon's already admitted that during interviews he might get things wrong if a question is about something too "obscure". Makes sense; coming up with answers to obscure and nitpicky things is Peter's job, after all. We'll need to take that into account when planning what questions to ask or when analyzing WoB. I just wish Brandon would make it a habit to say "PAFO!" when he's not confident with his answer.

***

We've seen Sanderson's Zeroth Law before, but it's nice seeing Brandon bring it up again. I myself have embraced this Law when forming my Cosmere theories; I try to only post theories that I think make the Cosmere more awesome, even if they don't always have a lot of evidence to back them up.

Edited by skaa
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Why are you so surprised?

 

Because we know that most, if not all, magic systems can be powered by an Investiture source different from their native one, with varying degrees of difficulty. So any Awakener should be able to Awaken things using Stormlight - especially considering how similar, or compatible, Stormlight and Breath are. Vasher's ability to feed his Divine Breath (which can serve fuel for Awakening, and is therefore closely tied to the magic system) with Stormlight is a further confirmation to me that Stormlight can fuel Awakening. So for Brandon to just straight up say he can't... I have to believe he is referring to Vasher specifically, not Awakeners in general.

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Yeah I read that answer as at the moment, no Vasher can't Awaken things, especially with the 'he's tried but hasn't figured it out'.  I think its possible and even likely that he'll figure it out, he just hasn't by the time he shows up in the Stormlight Archive.

 

I'm personally more curious to find out if Vasher will at some point learn how to Surgebind.  Either by figuring out and mimicking how Szeth does it (it kinda feels inevitable that their paths will cross at some point) or by forming a spren bond (in many ways he was pseudo bonded to Nightblood for centuries.  Ooooh.  Nightblood has certain sprenlike qualities, I wonder if there's any way he and Vasher could ever bond the way KRs bond with their spren?  What would that even look like?)

Edited by ROSHtaFARian2.0
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Because we know that most, if not all, magic systems can be powered by an Investiture source different from their native one, with varying degrees of difficulty. So any Awakener should be able to Awaken things using Stormlight - especially considering how similar, or compatible, Stormlight and Breath are. Vasher's ability to feed his Divine Breath (which can serve fuel for Awakening, and is therefore closely tied to the magic system) with Stormlight is a further confirmation to me that Stormlight can fuel Awakening. So for Brandon to just straight up say he can't... I have to believe he is referring to Vasher specifically, not Awakeners in general.

I agree. Brandon said that Vasher hasn't yet figured out how to do it, which implies there is something to figure out in the first place. I believe the key to Awakening in Roshar is finding a suitable spren for the Awakener to bond with, one that grants a Surge compatible with the mechanics of Awakening (i.e. infuse an object with Investiture that has a specific behavioral Intent set by the user). We'll need to see what the other Surges can do, but right now I feel that Gravitation is a promising prospect for the "hack", assuming Vasher can persuade an honorspren or a highspren to allow such a modification.

Edit: It just occurred to me that Transportation, the Surge of motion, might be more apt (I'm thinking of the scenes where Jasnah commands Sharesmar beads to move at will... or is that Transformation?), but again we definitely need to see more of the Surges in action.

Edited by skaa
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We already know that Windrunners have... what's the actual quote? an "unusually large number"? and "atypical amount"? of Squires. But this says "Strength of Squires." Does he simply mean that Kaladin himself is "strong" enough to host many Squires? Or does it mean that not only does he have many, but they are individually more powerful than most Squires are?

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As I understand it, there are really two factors here:

  1. Windrunners have an unusually high number of squires compared to the other Orders. Kaladin, by virtue of being a Windrunner, inherits this perk.
  2. Each Order has its own unique category of perks, so to speak. For the Lightweavers, it's something to do with artistic talent, I believe (the in-world Words of Radiance hints at this). It stands to reason that for the Windrunners, it would be something related to their squires. So Kaladin's "strength of squires" is his counterpart to Shallan's Memory-taking ability - both are related to their Orders' "passives," but are more... custom at the same time. Another Lightweaver might not have the ability to take Memories, just as another Windrunner might not share Kaladin's vague "strength".
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From the WoR tour:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7058-words-of-radiance-tour-chicago-signing-mar-22/page-2#entry116818

 

Q [31:13]: Shallan has this awesome Memory thing going on, Jasnah has this geolocation thing, Kaladin is a really good fighter - are those just their traits, or is there something supernatural going on? (You will notice my amazing mastery over the English language here, expressed in these beautifully structured sentences...)

A: There is something supernatural about those. Each Order... Well, how about this. If you look at scholars' interpretations, there are some scholars who think that these things are not supernatural, and some who think that they are. But, if you look, many Lightweavers had powerful mnemonic abilities.
Q: So it's definitely tied to the Orders?
A: It's tied to the Orders. Now, I am not going to say that you've got them all 100% correct, but each Order, there are things that come with Order, things that do not add up from simple the "you get this power plus this power," there is something else going on. And I would say that for Windrunners, watch the number of squires and the power of the squires... these are abnormal for the Windrunners.
Q: And each Order's squires are somehow different from the other Orders'?
A: Yeeeaaaa... some Orders do not have them.
Q: But some have more?
A: Yea.

Edited by kari-no-sugata
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I would very much settle for similar.

 

But I am surprised Vasher can't Awaken with Stormlight. I choose to interpret this answer as "he hasn't tried (hard enough)" not as "it's impossible". 

 

 

I agree. Brandon said that Vasher hasn't yet figured out how to do it, which implies there is something to figure out in the first place. I believe the key to Awakening in Roshar is finding a suitable spren for the Awakener to bond with, one that grants a Surge compatible with the mechanics of Awakening (i.e. infuse an object with Investiture that has a specific behavioral Intent set by the user). 

 

 

I agree that there is room in the WoB for the ability to Awaken with Stormlight, but what if it's as simple as going to the Nightwatcher and asking for the boon of "Awakening with Stormlight"? If he did that...I wonder what his curse would be, since that'd be a rather powerful boon. 

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We don't know whether the magnitudes of the Nightwatcher's curses and boons* are related.

 

 * It bothers me that this is the phrase used in the books. Curses usually go with blessings and boons with banes. Boons and banes has a certain ring to it.

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Few thoughts on the latest WoBs.

First, it looks like Brandon has confirmed that for Windrunners, the additional power from the Nahel bond is having a large of squires. I remember quite a few discussions attributing Kaladin's deadly fighting ability to his bond. So now this has cleared up. Windrunners get abnormal number of squires while Lightweavers get mnenomic abilities from Nahel bond.

Second, is it only me who thought Brandon was being contradictory about the common cold plaque. I mean since Rosharians have higher immunity because of Investiture, how did a large number of people fell prey to a minor infection like common cold? Does this mean that the Investiture level of Rosharians has gone down?

Third, I am wondering which Cosmere planet is so advanced medically to have knowledge about viruses since the WoB talks about Worldhoppers introducing the common cold pathogen to Roshar. Could it be Ashlyn where people get powers from illnesses? That would be interesting.

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Second, is it only me who thought Brandon was being contradictory about the common cold plaque. I mean since Rosharians have higher immunity because of Investiture, how did a large number of people fell prey to a minor infection like common cold? Does this mean that the Investiture level of Rosharians has gone down?

 

It sounds like higher innate Investiture simply makes your immune system better at identifying pathogens and producing antibodies for them. If that's the case, then Rosharans' better health is due to a longer list of immunities (acquired over time) and shorter time fighting off pathogens, not to some magical resistance against disease. The common cold virus, a virus completely new to Roshar, would be something the natives' immune systems would literally have no experience with - so they wouldn't (immediately) recognize it as a pathogen, and wouldn't start producing antibodies to fight off the viral attack.

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It sounds like higher innate Investiture simply makes your immune system better at identifying pathogens and producing antibodies for them. If that's the case, then Rosharans' better health is due to a longer list of immunities (acquired over time) and shorter time fighting off pathogens, not to some magical resistance against disease. The common cold virus, a virus completely new to Roshar, would be something the natives' immune systems would literally have no experience with - so they wouldn't (immediately) recognize it as a pathogen, and wouldn't start producing antibodies to fight off the viral attack.

It'll be interesting to see how Brandon addresses that in the Mistborn space trilogy.

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I don't think he has to. Once you start drilling into how the immune system works on the cellular level, there is basically a point where you have to stop and say "Okay, what determines whether this pathogen gets caught is simply how good the immune system has been at learning about it in the past, how good it is at recognizing it." Which has to do with a fun process that is essentially your cells killing off the enemy cells, dismembering them, and then putting their dismembered bodies on display. I am not kidding, this is how you build immunities. So at this point Brandon could probably just say "more innate Investiture makes it so your cells don't need to see as much of a certain pathogen to recognize it as harmful and build immunity against it" and I'll buy it.

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The common cold virus, a virus completely new to Roshar, would be something the natives' immune systems would literally have no experience with

If Rosharians have magical immunity to diseases, one would expect this is the situation where the magic part comes into play.

Anyways, I get your point. Brandon likes his magic to be complementary to natural phenomena. However there might be some merit in the idea that the natural Investiture of the folks might be going down. Brandon could very well be playing with the concept of immunocompromised diseases.

Edit: re to Argent's last post. The point you are making is about acquired immunity I think which requires previous sensitization. But we also have innate immunity which is the first line of defence in most infections. Investiture could theoretically fortify the innate immunity.

Edited by Twenty@20
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