How magic works in Warbreaker.

[Nepene]

I've read through all the annotations and read people's theories so I thought I'd collect my knowledge about how it all works.

History.

We start in the distant past. An immensely powerful being, the Adonalsium, exists. A creating force. Someone or something rips him apart, piece by piece to create 16 magical shards, powerful magical items that represent a fragment of Adonalsium's mind. Hoid (the storyteller) was present at this shattering, and (probably theory) wants to restore Adonalsium to his full strength by combining the shards. He is jumping from world to world and doing stuff in every book.

These artifacts have several properties. They have no mind so they need a human to take them. They gradually warp the human into embodying whatever they represent. They tend to take some natural aspect of the world, give it magical force, and allow people in that world to use their power. They often gain power by splitting of a fragment of themselves into others and giving those people enhanced magic. They have various water manifestations, like still pools of water. This is the world of cosmere where the books take place. Powerful magical items are taken up by humans, endow the world with their magical properties and are used for good and evil. They intermix with politics.

Skip forward a lot of time. Someone named Austre, a man, picks up the shard of Endowment. Soul magic, as we saw, starts to work with souls that already exist (spiritual energy) suddenly having the property that they can be endowed on objects and people, while leaving the mind intact because they now have a fragment of Endowment magic in them.

Austre begins using this massive magic to remake the world. Some people who die and endow life on another are returned with a prophetic view of the future and a mandate to fix whatever problems, along with the divine breath which is a splinter of the godlike mind. This process is imprecise and inexact- a human is doing the best they can with the immense magics of creation. He is worshipped as a God by the people, and his manifestations are worshipped by others or used by ambitious individuals.

Five very intelligent people are returned and begin screwing with the world. Vasher, Arsteel, the gang. They began to master the magic and do lots of crazy stuff- the undead creatures, magic sword etc. They started a war, made super golems, did lots of crazy stuff because of their erratic motivations.

Magic.

How does magic work? You take the soul or souls of people and endow them onto an object with some intent. They do their best to follow whatever command you give them. This gives the items limited sapience. Nightbringer is pretty sapient, a lifeless is less sapient. We may see a lifeless chapter in the next book. People assume they are non sapient wrongly.

The souls have two powers. They produce some degree of energy which can be used for various purposes endlessly, reanimating cloth or people. They have life force which can be used for more powerful tasks like nightbringer's mass murder at the cost of their destruction. They prefer to animate more human shapes and forms (as they are human) and require more souls to do less human tasks. The souls vary in how strong they are. A young person will have a stronger soul. They apparantly use colour to fuel tasks as well.

Questions.

Something I wonder is what happens when you awaken an object? The analogy used is beating down a door, not filling in a cup. So do you call a soul to manage the object? Do you force it to restore a soul from the afterlife? Perhaps there is a soul in all objects and you reprogram it?

Can returned have children? The royal family is proof they can. The process is difficult and uncertain though. The returned are manifestation of an aspect of creation, and can connect with them again to perform a single healing. Perhaps children of returned are stillborn, and require a miracle to revive them? Perhaps they can be enfused with souls? We know "(It has to do with restoring Breath and life to the child while still in the womb.). " so presumably, like all magic, a soul is given to a baby.

How do infants return? We know that heroism is a common route to returning and I presume this is because they endow another with life. It is possible an infant could save a mother's life. It could cure depression or boost her immune system. Its soul could boost her body if she is a drab and soulless. They likely don't understand their visions of the future well but have dreams and visions of it in later life.

What's it like being a drab? It sucks and causes depression and illness. The returned we see in the novel do not experience this as they have divine souls to protect them.

Are returned gods? I'd argue that the shards are clearly gods, and their manifestations are avatars. Less than gods but more than humans. They can shapeshift, do magical healing, and have an emphatic connection to the world. They are useful if expensive allies.

Why are magical swords so important? They are clearly powerful but require massive amounts of souls to use and create. I am unsure what they can do that a thousand lifeless soldiers cannot do. Vasher killed the woman because she was spreading the secret of magic metal. One of his companions likely knows the secret of magic swords and will use them in the next book. Perhaps more effective swords will be made, perhaps they will have some improved magic like mass mind control in future books.

Thank you for reading.

Tldr version. Magic is made by a god that likes giving, you give souls to items to make them sentient and do stuff for you, returned are avatars of the gods who gave their lives to others during life.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Nepene

[Kurkistan]

A decent attempt to outline BioChroma, and those are some interesting questions that I think we would all like to see answered in the next book (however far away it is).

We are actually running in parallel a bit here, at least with the idea of Awakening as endowing objects with an intent. I hadn't noticed your thread (sorry, I tend not to visit the Warbreaker section much), but I also generated a theory of Awakening which posits Breaths as providing the motive force to act on an Awakener's intent.

It's a bit of a frighteningly long read and the overarching theory (which is also long) has Cosmere-wide spoilers embedded in it, so you won't be hurting my feelings if you just ignore me.

Also, Hoid wanting to restore Adonalsium is just a theory, not something we "know."

Welcome to the forums, by the way.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Nepene]

A decent attempt to outline BioChroma, and those are some interesting questions that I think we would all like to see answered in the next book (however far away it is).

Thanks.

We are actually running in parallel a bit here, at least with the idea of Awakening as endowing objects with an intent. I hadn't noticed your thread (sorry, I tend not to visit the Warbreaker section much), but I also generated a theory of Awakening which posits Breaths as providing the motive force to act on an Awakener's intent.

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation/413/Warbreaker-Chapter-Thirty-Five

"This, of course, isn't an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don't think it's a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided was evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing. Someone who wouldn't want the sword for those reasons was determined to be good. If they touch the weapon, they feel sick. If others touch the weapon, their desire to kill and destroy with it is enhanced greatly."

I'm not sure that your theory is correct. As the above annotation notes, the breaths, the souls of people, are what does the deed, not your cognitive aspect. I am sure cognitive/spiritual/physical stuff comes in somewhere, but it is done by the souls that you have, not by your cognitive aspect. They interpret your command and carry it out as best they can. As such, I dunno if the number of souls you use has much to do with your skill. You can do more complex things with more skill, but no matter how strong your cognitive aspect is you can't do the old things better. It's dependent on the strength and will of the souls you use.

My general impression from my readings is that Brandon Sanderson likes the idea of everything having a soul, or a spren. All objects have some sentience. My guess is that your breaths reprogram the soul of the object. The wood remembers what it was like to be alive so it can move again when you have enough souls to remind it.

But it could be that the souls serve to animate the object directly. Regardless, there's probably going to be some sort of big reveal in the second book that all awakened objects are conscious somehow. He said he was going to do a chapter from the perspective of one of the Lifeless.

It's a bit of a frighteningly long read and the overarching theory (which is also long) has Cosmere-wide spoilers embedded in it, so you won't be hurting my feelings if you just ignore me.

Also, Hoid wanting to restore Adonalsium is just a theory, not something we "know."

Added, and read.

Welcome to the forums, by the way.

Thanks.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Nepene

[Kurkistan]

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation/413/Warbreaker-Chapter-Thirty-Five

"This, of course, isn't an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don't think it's a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided was evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing. Someone who wouldn't want the sword for those reasons was determined to be good. If they touch the weapon, they feel sick. If others touch the weapon, their desire to kill and destroy with it is enhanced greatly."

I'm not sure that your theory is correct. As the above annotation notes, the breaths, the souls of people, are what does the deed, not your cognitive aspect. I am sure cognitive/spiritual/physical stuff comes in somewhere, but it is done by the souls that you have, not by your cognitive aspect. They interpret your command and carry it out as best they can. As such, I dunno if the number of souls you use has much to do with your skill. You can do more complex things with more skill, but no matter how strong your cognitive aspect is you can't do the old things better. It's dependent on the strength and will of the souls you use.

My general impression from my readings is that Brandon Sanderson likes the idea of everything having a soul, or a spren. All objects have some sentience. My guess is that your breaths reprogram the soul of the object. The wood remembers what it was like to be alive so it can move again when you have enough souls to remind it. But it could be that the souls serve to animate the object directly. Regardless, there's probably going to be some sort of big reveal in the second book that all awakened objects are conscious somehow. He said he was going to do a chapter from the perspective of one of the undead creatures.

Well scratch my back with a hacksaw. I hadn't remembered that annotation. That doesn't look to good, now does it?

Would you mind re-posting the relevant section on the thread so that I can try to respond to it all in one place and also not double-post?

As for a chapter from Clod the Lifeless's perspective, what exactly that chapter will be like remains to be seen. It could be as simple as an "animal perspective" take on things or as far as "help, I'm trapped in the body of a corpse without any free will!"

Edited September 13, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Nepene]

Well scratch my back with a hacksaw. I hadn't remembered that annotation. That doesn't look to good, now does it?

Would you mind re-posting the relevant section on the thread so that I can try to respond to it all in one place and also not double-post?

As for a chapter from Clod the Lifeless's perspective, what exactly that chapter will be like remains to be seen. It could be as simple as an "animal perspective" take on things or as far as "help, I'm trapped in the body of a corpse without any free will!"

Done.

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation/427/Warbreaker-Chapter-Forty-Nine

With his practice and years of Awakening, he�s able to get Awakened objects to do things that others wouldn�t be able to. The straw men are a good example. As for why he apologizes, well, he doesn�t even know that himself. I think it�s because he realizes that Breath can make something sentient and aware, like Nightblood, and worries that the straw creatures become (even just slightly) more than just mindless automatons.

So I suspect everything with a breath in it is sentient to some degree. Maybe like animal, or a semi human as you said, depending on the skill of the awakener and the number of souls. In the sequel he will likely expand on this. Recognising that the breaths are sentient and prefer more human manifestations is likely one mark of an extremely skilled awakener.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Nepene

[Kurkistan]

Done.

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation/427/Warbreaker-Chapter-Forty-Nine

With his practice and years of Awakening, he�s able to get Awakened objects to do things that others wouldn�t be able to. The straw men are a good example. As for why he apologizes, well, he doesn�t even know that himself. I think it�s because he realizes that Breath can make something sentient and aware, like Nightblood, and worries that the straw creatures become (even just slightly) more than just mindless automatons.

So I suspect everything with a breath in it is sentient to some degree. Maybe like animal, or a semi human as you said, depending on the skill of the awakener and the number of souls. In the sequel he will likely expand on this. Recognising that the breaths are sentient and prefer more human manifestations is likely one mark of an extremely skilled awakener.

Awakened objects being somewhat sentient makes a certain amount of sense, although I'm still battling you on the other thread as to the origin of that sentience (Cognitive aspects ftw!).

I'm fairly sure that the number of Breaths actually doesn't vary at all for Awakening specific objects. "Hold things" and "hold when thrown" both require the same number of Breaths for a piece of rope, to my knowledge. Would you mind using your comprehensive knowledge of Warbreaker to double check that?

[Nepene]

Awakened objects being somewhat sentient makes a certain amount of sense, although I'm still battling you on the other thread as to the origin of that sentience (Cognitive aspects ftw!).

I'm fairly sure that the number of Breaths actually doesn't vary at all for Awakening specific objects. "Hold things" and "hold when thrown" both require the same number of Breaths for a piece of rope, to my knowledge. Would you mind using your comprehensive knowledge of Warbreaker to double check that?

I don't know it well enough to check all usages. But for lifeless and the sword it varies. Nightbringer consumes breaths and may well have required extra breaths to make it sentient.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/01/your-questions-for-brandon-sanderson-answered

"I confirmed in the Warbreaker annotations that Clod is Arsteel.

Clod is more self-aware than most Lifeless. There is something left of Arsteel within Clod. The Breaths that Vasher gave him when he killed him do have an effect on this."

And as he says, Clod is more sentient because he has extra breaths.

[Kurkistan]

I don't know it well enough to check all usages. But for lifeless and the sword it varies. Nightbringer consumes breaths and may well have required extra breaths to make it sentient.

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2011/01/your-questions-for-brandon-sanderson-answered

"I confirmed in the Warbreaker annotations that Clod is Arsteel.

Clod is more self-aware than most Lifeless. There is something left of Arsteel within Clod. The Breaths that Vasher gave him when he killed him do have an effect on this."

And as he says, Clod is more sentient because he has extra breaths.

Interesting. Once again, I hadn't remembered that quote. You're just a living archive, aren't you?

You actually miss-paraphrase a bit there. As Brandon says, "There is something left of Arsteel within Clod. The Breaths that Vasher gave [Arsteel] when he killed him do have an affect on [Clod being more self-aware than most Lifeless]." Not "Clod is more sentient because he has extra breaths:" Arsteel, specifically, is hanging on by a thread there, not just general "sentience" that could come from any old Breath.

Besides Arsteel just still being there, there is also the strong implication that Clod has a singular and cohesive (if weak) personality of Arsteel--and Arsteel in particular--still knocking about in there. Not the personalities of the hundred or so "souls" that Vasher poured into him at the time of his death.

I would hazard that Arsteel dying while in the process of receiving Breaths, specifically during the "ecstasy" stage which enabled Vasher to kill Arsteel, is probably more important than just that Arsteel had a lot of Breaths on him when he died. It could alternatively be that that transitional phase somehow burned a stronger sense of identity onto the body or otherwise boosted Arsteel's Cognitive aspect. It may even have boosted his Spiritual aspect a bit so that he could stick around long enough to still be there after being Awakened.

Really, this quote actually casts doubt on Breaths being individual, intelligent souls. If that were the case, then Arsteel should have been overwhelmed and destroyed even more so than usual by the presence of all of these extraneous Breaths, not preserved by them. If Breaths are manifestations of Spiritual energy, though, the energy that enables other magical effects to occur, such as, say, boosting the longevity of the Cognitive aspect of a specific individual upon his death... (I like ellipses today, for some reason).

Edited September 13, 2012 by Kurkistan

[Nepene]

Interesting. Once again, I hadn't remembered that quote. You're just a living archive, aren't you?

You actually miss-paraphrase a bit there. As Brandon says, "There is something left of Arsteel within Clod. The Breaths that Vasher gave [Arsteel] when he killed him do have an affect on [Clod being more self-aware than most Lifeless]." Not "Clod is more sentient because he has extra breaths:" Arsteel, specifically, is hanging on by a thread there, not just general "sentience" that could come from any old Breath.

Besides Arsteel just still being there, there is also the strong implication that Clod has a singular and cohesive (if weak) personality of Arsteel--and Arsteel in particular--still knocking about in there. Not the personalities of the hundred or so "souls" that Vasher poured into him at the time of his death.

I would hazard that Arsteel dying while in the process of receiving Breaths, specifically during the "ecstasy" stage which enabled Vasher to kill Arsteel, is probably more important than just that Arsteel had a lot of Breaths on him when he died. It could alternatively be that that transitional phase somehow burned a stronger sense of identity onto the body or otherwise boosted Arsteel's Cognitive aspect. It may even have boosted his Spiritual aspect a bit so that he could stick around long enough to still be there after being Awakened.

Really, this quote actually casts doubt on Breaths being individual, intelligent souls. If that were the case, then Arsteel should have been overwhelmed and destroyed even more so than usual by the presence of all of these extraneous Breaths, not preserved by them. If Breaths are manifestations of Spiritual energy, though, the energy that enables other magical effects to occur, such as, say, boosting the longevity of the Cognitive aspect of a specific individual upon his death... (I like ellipses today, for some reason).

Thank you, I read lots of stuff to understand it all.

This quote could support a variety of possibilities.

It could be, as you said, it boosted Arsteel's cognitive aspect. It may be that these aspects are inherent to the physical and with enough breaths you can reawaken it. This would tie into the whole, the body remembers being alive thing. With enough souls you can make it remember its cognitive aspects.

It could be that each soul has a fragment of awareness, and with enough some sentience spills over. Seeing colours and experiencing things is the hallmark of sentience, and people with lots of breath see more colours and experience things more intensely.

It could be that there was something in him getting it during the transition period, as you said. By boosting the cognitive aspect you can extend it beyond death.

We can't clearly distinguish between the theories till the next novel. I doubt, as you say, that each soul is a fully intelligent being, for the reasons you said. Brandon has made clear that the awakened have partial sentience at most. We can't really say for sure how intelligent souls are (though they clearly have enough volition to follow commands) and how strong their cognitive element is.

If you've read other books how sentient are spirits in those ones? Can people impose intelligence on them with their cognitive aspects? I vaguely remember that a truth spren was made more intelligent by someone telling it a truth.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Nepene

[dj26792]

An idea for discussion I have no idea if it holds any weight, breaths dont have a cognitive aspect but because everything in the cosmere has 3 aspects when you super charge somethings spiritual aspect like that it spontaneously enhances the cognitive too, this doesnt affect people since they already have a coherent fully developed cognitive aspect...

I'll sort of trail off there and leave further thought to others who have time

[Kurkistan]

Thank you, I read lots of stuff to understand it all.

This quote could support a variety of possibilities.

It could be, as you said, it boosted Arsteel's cognitive aspect. It may be that these aspects are inherent to the physical and with enough breaths you can reawaken it. This would tie into the whole, the body remembers being alive thing. With enough souls you can make it remember its cognitive aspects.

It could be that each soul has a fragment of awareness, and with enough some sentience spills over. Seeing colours and experiencing things is the hallmark of sentience, and people with lots of breath see more colours and experience things more intensely.

It could be that there was something in him getting it during the transition period, as you said. By boosting the cognitive aspect you can extend it beyond death.

We can't clearly distinguish between the theories till the next novel. I doubt, as you say, that each soul is a fully intelligent being, for the reasons you said. Brandon has made clear that the awakened have partial sentience at most. We can't really say for sure how intelligent souls are (though they clearly have enough volition to follow commands) and how strong their cognitive element is.

If you've read other books how sentient are spirits in those ones? Can people impose intelligence on them with their cognitive aspects? I vaguely remember that a truth spren was made more intelligent by someone telling it a truth.

We can't know until the next book, true, but we can continue to eliminate those theories which are simply inconsistent and/or contradict existing evidence. Much like you're hard at work at for my theory.

*Spoilers*

If by "spirit" you mean an incorporeal human soul, there are none in the other books besides Kelsier as temp-Preservation. We have Seons and Skaze in Elantris, which are almost certainly Splinters of Aona an Skai's Shards, and are fully sentient. We have spren in the WoK, which are basically comprised like venn diagrams of Honor and Cultivation, and seem to lack sentience unless they have a Nahal bond. Too early to tell about them, really.

An idea for discussion I have no idea if it holds any weight, breaths dont have a cognitive aspect but because everything in the cosmere has 3 aspects when you super charge somethings spiritual aspect like that it spontaneously enhances the cognitive too, this doesnt affect people since they already have a coherent fully developed cognitive aspect...

I'll sort of trail off there and leave further thought to others who have time

Perhaps. I wouldn't necessarily say that people have fully developed Cognitive aspects, though, since we see Feruchemists with Zincminds cogitating objectively better than normal while tapping, so there is no necessity for an upper limit.

Also, recall that everything has a fully developed Cognitive aspect, for what it is. That rock over there is just as developed as it needs to be. Perhaps sentient being get special rules, but then again perhaps not. As you said, one for discussion.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Kurkistan

[AerionBFII]

Only just started Warbreaker but life sense? Do you have that from the start and it gets stronger with each breath you add to your collection?

[Pechvarry]

I... Think the correct response to your question is RAFO.

But yes, it does.