Honorblades: Concerning Energy Efficiency

[18th Shard]

To quote myself from another topic

 

 

I believe the Honorblades are actually a very large portion of Investiture, enough to dwarf a spren in comparison (since they are "orders of magnitude" greater than Shardblades [dead or live spren]). I think they drain Investiture quickly because they are bonded to the Heralds, not Szeth or their current wielders. You see, much as Shallan giving Pattern to Kaladin did not give him a bond with it, an Honorblade claimed and "bonded" by a non-Herald does not get the benefits of being Bonded to the Honorblade fully. The Heralds already have a large amount of Investiture (mainfesting as the Honorblade) and are bonded with it, like Kaladin with Syl, and so the Blade doesn't siphon off energy because they are Bonded with it. To utilize the Surgebinding capabilites of his Honorblade, Szeth had to fill that power difference with Investiture (Stormlight). The Blade not only utilized the energy of the Stormlight to use the Lashings, but also to simply grant Szeth the ability to Surgebind. Heralds would probably not consume Stormlight at near the same rate.

 

So, to clear that up with numbers, to Surgebind using an Honorblade uses 10 AUI [arbitrary unit of Investiture]. Being truly bonded with it grants 7 AUI (since my view is that the Bond actually Invests the bondee) and the Heralds only have to use 3 AUI of Stormlight. Szeth then has to have enough Stormlight to not only fill the regular 3 AUI to Surgebind, but also enough to boost his Investiture to a full 10 from 0. As comparison, Kaladin has a bond level of 3 AUI and uses an additional 3 AUI to Surgebind. He seems more powerful, but only because we haven't seen a Herald use their Blade to full potential.

 

So, what do you think of my theory? To restate, using an Honorblade requires a base level of Investiture in its wielder; this is what all of that Stormlight is going to when Szeth Invests - bringing him up to that threshold. The rest actually goes to making the Lashings.

[blad3mast3r]

What are "stormlight AUI"

[Moogle]

So, what do you think of my theory? To restate, using an Honorblade requires a base level of Investiture in its wielder; this is what all of that Stormlight is going to when Szeth Invests - bringing him up to that threshold. The rest actually goes to making the Lashings.

 

I'm not sure. It doesn't seem to fit to me, as Syl says the Blade is feeding on his Stormlight, and if that were true it'd have connections with Nightblood (which I like). The Heralds seemed like they gave up their bond to their Blades... if they didn't, what would be the point of leaving them behind in a circle? Why would Shallash muse about getting her hands on a Shardblade in WoK, when she could just summon her Honorblade to hand? Why would we have a WoB stating "one Herald went back for their Blade" if they're all still bonded to them?

 

On more theoretical grounds... I don't know, it doesn't really make sense to me that Szeth has to constantly feed Investiture to his Blade in order to gain the ability to use Investiture.

 

On elegance grounds: I don't like the idea that the Honorblades work differently for the Heralds than they do for normal men. It seems kind of arbitrary. I feel it makes more sense if Honorblades have a few secrets of operation that the Heralds know and normal men don't, but not that the Herald's innate Investiture causes them to work better or something. This isn't really much of an argument against the theory, though, it's just a preference of mine.

 

Speculation: It's also likely that Szeth gains a strong bond to his Blade when it's in hand, as his eyes change color while holding it (regardless of how much Stormlight he has). Kal's eye color didn't change until he gained a bond strong enough to Syl to summon her as a Shardblade, so it seems like Szeth's bond strength should be just as powerful, so that kinda conflicts with your theory too. I'm making the assumption here that eye color change = strong bond, but I think that's a fairly solid assumption.

 

Good job making the theory. It's definitely a possibility, even if it doesn't really seem like it fits perfectly to me.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Moogle

[Kipper]

@18th Shard:

Do you have a source for Honorblades being "orders of magnitude" more powerful than normal Shardblades?

I'm sure it's there, I would just like to see it.

[natc]

What are "stormlight AUI"

He literally explains the unit the first time he uses it . . .

[taveren]

i wouldn't be surprised if they were stronger but we have nothing to go on atm

[Moogle]

@18th Shard:

Do you have a source for Honorblades being "orders of magnitude" more powerful than normal Shardblades?

I'm sure it's there, I would just like to see it.

 

No such WoB exists, to my knowledge. However, there is this:

I've been waiting for the right moment to drop this tidbit. My cousin ran into Brandon in a bookstore once (crazy!) and asked him which of these two was more powerful. His response was that Nightblood is "several orders of magnitude more magical than a shardblade." It doesn't really answer your question, but it is definitely interesting, yes?

(source)

 

Paraphrased, and so we can't trust it 100%, but:

Question

How much more powerful is Nightblood than a a regular Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven't actually quantified that in my own mind so can't give an accurate comparison at this point. I will say that when he is fully consuming Investiture he can do some really freaky things.

Footnote

In the past Brandon has described Nightblood as being "magnitudes more invested than a shardblade".

(source)

 

Note the footenote comes from the report above, so it can be treated as untrustworthy.

 

As to the actual question (I think you were specifically referring to Honorblades being orders of magnitude, but in case you were wondering whether it's true they're more powerful), we know that Honorblades are more powerful through Kalak:

These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious. Jezrien stood outside the ring of swords, looking eastward.

 

Edited January 16, 2015 by Moogle

[Kipper]

Thanks. I was a little skeptical when I saw the words "orders of magnitude" being applied to Honorblades. I knew that those words had been applied to Nightblood, but I wasn't sure about Honorblades.

[kaellok]

I recall specific mention of Surgebinding abilities using Szeth's Stormlight, but nothing about his Stormlight depleting while just wielding the Blade.  According to your theory, it should be feeding off of his Investiture even when he's not using one of the Surges, right?  (Similar to Nightblood, I would assume, but perhaps in a different way altogether.)  If there actually is mention of this somewhere, I think that would be a large nod to your theory being correct or at least headed in the right direction.  Lacking that, however, Moogle makes some good points.  Still, an interesting idea.

[18th Shard]

Replies in Blue:

I'm not sure. It doesn't seem to fit to me, as Syl says the Blade is feeding on his Stormlight, and if that were true it'd have connections with Nightblood (which I like). The Heralds seemed like they gave up their bond to their Blades... if they didn't, what would be the point of leaving them behind in a circle? Why would Shallash muse about getting her hands on a Shardblade in WoK, when she could just summon her Honorblade to hand? Why would we have a WoB stating "one Herald went back for their Blade" if they're all still bonded to them? My theory is that they are still bonded to it weakly, much like Kaladin in WoR when he almost kills Syl. And it's not that Szeth hasn't bonded to it, just not to the degree that a Herald is/was. Like a First Oath bond compared to a Fifth Oath bond.

 

On more theoretical grounds... I don't know, it doesn't really make sense to me that Szeth has to constantly feed Investiture to his Blade in order to gain the ability to use Investiture.

 

On elegance grounds: I don't like the idea that the Honorblades work differently for the Heralds than they do for normal men. It seems kind of arbitrary. I feel it makes more sense if Honorblades have a few secrets of operation that the Heralds know and normal men don't, but not that the Herald's innate Investiture causes them to work better or something. It's more that the Heralds are/were already bonded to it to a high degree, and that Szeth has to use Stormlight to Invest himself to the same level as the Heralds' bond equals. He could not have to do that if he could bond with it better (Not sure if this is possible). This isn't really much of an argument against the theory, though, it's just a preference of mine. Ok. I will agree to respectfully disagree until WOB or future books clarify. (Can we summon Peter somehow? )

 

Speculation: It's also likely that Szeth gains a strong bond to his Blade when it's in hand, as his eyes change color while holding it (regardless of how much Stormlight he has). Kal's eye color didn't change until he gained a bond strong enough to Syl to summon her as a Shardblade, so it seems like Szeth's bond strength should be just as powerful, so that kinda conflicts with your theory too. I'm making the assumption here that eye color change = strong bond, but I think that's a fairly solid assumption. It's my belief that it is actually the level of Investiture the person has. Kaladin has more Investiture in him when he summons Syl or Infuses. Bonding a dead Blade gives you a miniscule amount of Innate Investiture more; this changes eye color. Again, just personal interpretation.

 

Good job making the theory. It's definitely a possibility, even if it doesn't really seem like it fits perfectly to me. Thanks.

 

 

 
No such WoB exists, to my knowledge. However, there is this:

 

 

I've been waiting for the right moment to drop this tidbit. My cousin ran into Brandon in a bookstore once (crazy!) and asked him which of these two was more powerful. His response was that Nightblood is "several orders of magnitude more magical than a shardblade." It doesn't really answer your question, but it is definitely interesting, yes?

Paraphrased, and so we can't trust it 100%, but:

 

Question
How much more powerful is Nightblood than a a regular Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson
I haven't actually quantified that in my own mind so can't give an accurate comparison at this point. I will say that when he is fully consuming Investiture he can do some really freaky things.

Footnote
In the past Brandon has described Nightblood as being "magnitudes more invested than a shardblade".

 

Note the footenote comes from the report above, so it can be treated as untrustworthy.

 

As to the actual question (I think you were specifically referring to Honorblades being orders of magnitude, but in case you were wondering whether it's true they're more powerful), we know that Honorblades are more powerful through Kalak:

These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique. Precious. Jezrien stood outside the ring of swords, looking eastward.
 

 

Yep, this is what I was thinking of, wording-wise. The sentiment stands though.

I recall specific mention of Surgebinding abilities using Szeth's Stormlight, but nothing about his Stormlight depleting while just wielding the Blade.  According to your theory, it should be feeding off of his Investiture even when he's not using one of the Surges, right?  (Similar to Nightblood, I would assume, but perhaps in a different way altogether.)  If there actually is mention of this somewhere, I think that would be a large nod to your theory being correct or at least headed in the right direction.  Lacking that, however, Moogle makes some good points.  Still, an interesting idea.

No, just summoning the Blade would be like a Bond to a dead Shardblade - doesn't require Investiture. Perhaps like a sheathed Nightblood. It's only when he utilizes the Surgebinding capabilities that he has to reach that level of Investiture.

 

Thank you all for your thoughts. I realize a lot of it is personal interpretation. I wish there was a machine to download all of what I am thinking into an easily understandable format.