maxal Posted March 8, 2015 Report Share Posted March 8, 2015 I don't know if I would have given up on the series but I did stop reading forums and stuff because I didn't want to read so much complaining. In some ways I wanted to defend the series but I decided to ignore that stuff and just try to enjoy the books when I was reading them and otherwise put them out of my mind. Yeah, Rand builds up nicely at first but then starts going darker and darker. That was the main point of his overall story but it was quite painful at times. I don't think I liked Egwene in the first book, was pretty impressed with her in the second but she was more of a mixed bag for me overall though she had some nice high points near the end. Perrin was same for me - peaked when he saved the Two Rivers. I always liked (but never adored) Min. Aviendha was interesting, exotic and spiky early on but she rather faded into the background after "leaving" Rand. I don't think I ever enjoyed Elayne much. Yeah, I recall the WoT forums could be painful at times... so much complaining... After going there for too long, I felt ashamed for not hating Egwene and not liking Min The problem with Rand was not his story arc as a whole, but the fact it lingered into status quo for about 6 books. He ranted and ranted on how he had killed women over and over again. We never got any resolution on this issue, not until the last book. I understand the need for the plot, but it was just too long, which is why I hope Kaladin will not remain depressed forever as it will get as tiring as Rand. Agree about Aviendha, interesting at first, boring in the end. Min, I never liked. I hate the too abundant use of prophecies in stories and Min seemed like a plot devise to me. I really hope we get to see some significant aspects of historical Roshar. I expect we will when the books cover flashbacks of two of the Heralds. Hopefully Brandon will write some short stories too. I find the cultural changes after the Recreance to be fascinating and would like to see some scenes. I'd also particularly like to see what things were like when the first spren bonded Surgebinders started appearing, early in Roshar's history. The interesting in WoT was our main characters traveled a lot through out the books. Jordan always grouped them in patch of 3 or 4 and had them move around. I am unsure if Brandon will do the same... So far, he has put Jasnah in one corner of the world, Kaladin going into another, Szeth heading for Shinovar and the rest in Urithiru. I for one am not fond when characters are evolving away from each other as the interaction between them is what makes my read more entertaining. I have fears for the next book, due to the conjuncture. I hope Jasnah will meet up with someone on her way back and that Kaladin won't linger too long before coming back. I remember when originally reading "The Hero of Ages" feeling quite depressed at how bleak things were. I read it in one sitting but it was still quite painful at times. But the ending was amazing - probably the most satisfying ending I've ever read for an epic fantasy series. Kaladin's story in WoR is a bit like that but I didn't find it so satisfying in the end - though the mid-air mid-storm duel was amazing and felt similarly cinematic to HoA's set piece fight. The way I see it, Kaladin's successes in tWoK and failures in WoR are flip-sides of the same thing: the strength of his emotions. I might be wrong but I see similar parallels with the other characters (in that their main strengths and weaknesses are flip-sides of the same thing). I think as Kaladin progresses as a Radiant he will find a better and better balance and learn to channel his emotions effectively more of the time. Dalinar certainly thinks that Kaladin will become a fine leader once he gets the hang of his emotions. Your sketch of what Kaladin could get up to in the next book is quite similar to mine though I think the situation will be quite bleak "on the ground". My thoughts are Kaladin will grow to resemble more and more Dalinar. They have a lot in common and tend to react similarly when put in the same situation: they are either too trustful or too distrustful. They are both bad judges of character. Their leadership style is both inspired by the awe they draw into their followers: people do not necessarily like them as persons, but they are impressed by them and trust they will do what it takes on the battlefield. They are both terrible at admitting their deep rooted feelings. They both wanted to become soldiers as children... All in all, Kaladin is much more like Dalinar then Adolin... Adolin is passionate, like Dalinar, skilled, like Dalinar, but the comparison stops there. Dalinar's emotions seemed like deep ingrained ones he has learned to soothe over the years, whereas Adolin wears his heart out. Kaladin, in that regard, takes more after Dalinar..... I do expect the situation will be bleak, but I hope Kal will deal with it appropriately. I'm really curious about you saying "Adolin's jest" - Shallan definitely takes Adolin's words seriously here and I don't see a way to interpret them otherwise. I don't see how it could be a "jest" so can you expand a bit by what you mean? Alright. Language barrier here I thought "jest" meant something else :ph34r: :ph34r: It is not what I wanted to say: I meant his emotional outburst where he claimer over and over again he would protect Shallan. Let me try a different approach to what I'm arguing: if we consider Adolin's tone and way of speaking with Shallan prior to this, I would say he is being polite, gentle etc. He uses a reasonable amount of sentence softening, asks Shallan for her opinion, phrases requests/suggestions clearly as such and so on. He is displaying emotions clearly but more like a soft breeze. It's not weak or wishy-washy, but refined, I guess he would say. To Shallan this is probably quite soothing. In comparison, Shallan's father is pretty much on the other end of the scale: he uses demanding language or blunt orders, openly threatens etc. In addition, his emotions are displayed forcibly and menacingly - more like a storm. Everything is pretty much "do what I say" and "your opinion doesn't count". If we then look at how Adolin is speaking in this part of the scene: he's using no sentence softening, he's not asking Shallan for her opinion, he's not phrasing it as a request or suggestion and he's speaking fiercely. He's certainly not ordering Shallan but he comes across as being very insistent. He is certainly not like her father but just briefly, he is close enough to be a reminder. True, because before, Adolin was in control. As long as he is "emotionally stable", he is polite, gentle, soft, friendly... The issue arises when his inner cup gets overflowed as I suspect it did after the Shallan incident. In other words, Adolin is speaking fiercely because he has gotten overruled by his inner fear for her, his inner guilt for failing to protect her, a task he has set upon himself, his inner sadness at having lost her, a feeling he probably does not know how to deal with. We see it on a few occasions... Each time Adolin gets emotional, he either get fiercer, angrier, more down to the fact and tends to snarl at whoever threatens his family (everything revolving around Sadeas) or he gets more anxious and puts in his mind he needs to train harder, prepare himself more (everything revolving around Szeth). I also think his insistence was triggered by his fear of losing her. The event happened a few minutes after he admitted how he did not wish to lose her to Kaladin and this is exactly what happened. In this scene, Shallan misunderstood Adolin. She failed to see he was being emotional, not controlling. He feared for her, he may even love her. Adolin on his side, failed to catch the cues on Shallan's body language as she withdraw and kept adding boiling oil onto the fire. To re-iterate, I'm not faulting Adolin here though I do think he's making some small and simple mistakes (I've done similar things a few times). In a sense, it's more of a "presentation" issue - he's being over-eager. I don't think Shallan has any problem at all with his desire to protect her - she's not rejecting that! But if you take what he says literally and combine that with his enthusiasm it suddenly sounds threatening to someone with Shallan's experiences. I'm very sure this came across differently to what he intended - I'm not sure what he would have actually done in practice if Shallan had just smiled and nodded but I would expect the majority of people to be okay with it in the circumstances. It's just unfortunate for him that Shallan is very particular about personal liberty. Us readers know a lot more about both of them but the characters themselves don't. Adolin can't see into Shallan's mind and know how she would react to certain things or why. Likewise for Shallan - she can't see into Adolin's mind and know exactly what he would and wouldn't do, though I think part of the reason why Shallan recovers reasonably quickly is she knows this is atypical for Adolin . To me, both characters are being true to their own feelings here and don't understand each other well enough yet, which is why I describe this scene as being a case of conflicting desires. Adolin tends to be over-eager most of the time, but in this case I do not think he was "eager" or "enthusiast", I thought he was afraid he may lose the one girl he actually liked while feeling guilty as he was in part to blame. Not so atypical for Adolin and not so atypical either for Shallan... Shallan just does not know him all that well... and reversely Adolin does not know much of her.... In other words, they are still attuning themselves to each other, which is normal considering they have been dating for a few weeks only. I do not see it as a conflict of desire but a more as a conflict of fears: fear of losing a loved one on Adolin's side, fear of losing her liberty on Shallan's. All in all, they are both afraid, but not of the same thing. I think there would have always been a lot of variety in how bonds form. I suspect that spren do have some skills to find suitable candidates "in the wild" - Shallan is in the middle of nowhere but Pattern still found her. I'm quite uneasy with the idea that there might have been formal methods to "crack" people though, even if prospective candidates had a rough idea of what was coming. It would be interesting to know how often Nahel bonds only partially formed and never got to the first Oath and how many got from the first Oath to full Radiant. From what I've seen, it feels to me that the spren have a more trial-and-error approach. I agree. Whereas some sprens may go "in the wild" as you say to find worthy candidate, I also thing individuals could try to postulate to become a Radiants in Urithihu itself. Dalinar's vision did suggest this. It also implied seeking Urithiru did not guaranty a place in one of the orders, but it was a good way to start. I also think we are under the impression becoming a Radiants is a trial and error process due to Kaladin and Shallan's experiences, but I doubt things were this way back in the day where there were many Radiants. New comers would certainly be taken into care by the older ones. Young knights in becoming such as Shallan and Kaladin would have been tutored by the advanced ones. The trial and error methods we are seeing now seems mostly due to the lack of Radiants and the fact sprens forgot most of what they previously knew. I too would like to know the percentage of bond not achieving maturity... I also wonder if we are going to see failed bonds in current day SA. Yeah, it's all rather curious... which is why it's a bit frustrating that we never saw further into Shallan's past. Based on the available hints to date, what you suggest above is quite similar to my own imaginings of what seems most likely. It just doesn't seem likely to have a strong enough impact for Shallan's last "truth" though which is why I started imagining other possibilities. Shallan currently looks set to be the first to become a full Radiant so it should be a strong scene. It is frustrating and at the same time it leaves some room for imagination... I suspect we are going to find out what happened before her mother's death, but not through a flashbacks. Flashbacks are tools Brandon is using to present a given character's past through his POV, but it hardly is the only means to have the readers discovers past events. Since two of Shallan's truth were about her family, I suspect the last one will broach another topic. I believe it may become redundant if 4 out 5 five truths ended up being tied to her parents... That seems much... Hehe, well, it certainly can be fun to imagine various possibilities even if you know they're probably implausible within the rules of the story Implausible is not a word I understand I LOVE drawing imaginary scenarios in my head of how the story could unfold. Some are more plausible then others, but restraining ourselves to thoughts only within established cannon makes the exercise boring... Even if none of my "possibilities" come out true, I still had fun thinking about them in between books I haven't imagined something like that but I have thought of the possibility of how having Pattern around could subvert the rom-com type archetype where someone is in denial (or love-triangle scenario)... as in, he makes it impossible. I thought Shallan admitting her true feelings towards a love interest would make a nice truth... and it would give the reader an "awe cute" moment Agree Pattern could end up ruining everything... I wonder how Pattern will behave around Adolin... Now he no longer is a secret and is allowed to interact with other human beings: will he support Shallan's current decision to continue with the betrothal, what will he think of events at the end of WoR...? We keep on wondering how the characters will behave, but how about Pattern? He tends to be quite vocal... and curious I wouldn't say Shallan has always been following the path drawn for her. For example, the plan to become Jasnah's ward was all her own idea. At the end of tWoK Shallan made the decision confront a hostile Jasnah to join her cause for real. In WoR while deciding to continue Jasnah's work does seem like following someone else's path, Shallan consciously made the decision to keep going and since she very much does it her own way it's more like she's targeting the same destination via her own particular path. I guess I meant I have yet to see her make a decision for her inner good, her inner pleasure, her inner happiness. There are things she sees as her duty: saving her family, continuing Jasnah's researches, infiltrating the Ghostblood, but what about herself? What would she like to do for her, just for her? We have yet to see this as most of her decisions have been so far driven by need and necessity more than desire. But anyway... I think I see what you're getting at... though I don't think she'll be settling down to a particular type of life or career any time soon - she's still young. Shallan seems to have quite a range of skills and possible things she can do, more than most characters. I expect her to apprentice to Navani in book 3 and Hoid eventually with maybe others on the way. I don't expect her to have properly settled down by the end of the first half of the Stormlight Achieve though we'll probably see some strong hints. When the action starts up in the second half I'm expecting her to be in quite a settled situation (ie married with children), assuming she survived the first half of course. SA is going to span over more than 20 years. Half our cast is under the age of 25. It is illogical and unrealistic to think none of them would end up married and having children at some point. Shallan being the only woman, it makes it even more likely she would tie down the knot. Besides, married life would not stop her from continuing her apprenticeships as she was quiet clear she would never allowed being put into a tower. Brandon did say he would show us an Alethi weeding at some point. I thus think it likely to see Adolin and Shallan getting married at the end of either book 4 or 5. I know most of the fandom believe we are going to see Dalinar and Navani getting married, but I strongly disagree for many reasons. 1) Vorinism forbids them from getting married. People often make the arguments the return of the Radiants would eventually destroy Vorinism thus making Dalinar and Navani relationship acceptable. I agree it is likely to happen, but not in the scope of a few months or even a few years. Profound change such as this usually happen through out years and generations. Besides, Dalinar seeks to unite. He would not risk dividing simply to publicly profess his love to Navani, not when he can have her in private. Alethi can be quite accepting of things kept in the shadow, such as a forbidden union. 2) They don't need to get married. They are pass the age were they need to scream their love to the world. 3) It would be horribly anti-climatic to see our young cast make it through the first half, single while the only lasting long-term establish relationship is between the aging characters. 4) Adolin needs to marry. This has been stated often enough. It is logical he'll end up marrying someone. As for the second arc, as a 10 to 15 years gap is planned, it would also be unrealistic if neither Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan had children of their own. I expect Adolin, at the very least, to have a few (5 or 6 with Shallan to be more precise if they do end up together, I expect hem to have a large family ). Moreover, I expect to see the third generation of Kohlin brothers in the next arc... I'm sure Jasnah could have solved it, just not how Shallan solved it - it's certainly not a problem that only Shallan could have solved. The main question is whether she could have solved it in time because she would have probably used more methodical methods (which I think is why the other scholars aren't able to contribute too much in the final part - it's not a situation that they're used to). On the other hand she would likely have been better prepared for it. I do not think Jasnah would have solved it in time. She is too careful. Solving the puzzled required taking greater risks than Jasnah usually do. She may be reckless at time, but not when it comes to research. Regarding Shallan being "slightly too perfect": it's kinda odd because I know what you're getting at but the deeper I've looked into it the more mistakes I see her making or the longer it takes for her to realise something than I initially thought. For example, she doesn't figure out how to make her Lightweaving work reliably until chapter 47 - she has a lot of failures along the way. She's able to make it work before that but she couldn't be sure in advance that it would in fact work. I think the reason why we don't notice the mistakes so much is that most of the time those mistakes are not immediately or obviously an issue and Shallan herself tends not to dwell on them - she doesn't seem too bothered about making mistakes unless they impact someone else. Actually, I thought mastering any surge within a few weeks was slightly too fast. This comment is valid for both Shallan and Kaladin. I agree she has made mistakes, but not ones with consequences. Everything of consequences, she mastered, so far. I wonder how often they did that during previous Desolations. There's all sorts of ways it could be useful... but we've yet to see any actual indication of historical Lightweavers doing such things. Sometimes I wonder how pre-Recreance Radiants would view the new ones. I suspect Kaladin is probably using his skills in familiar ways to the old Radiants. With Shallan, I wouldn't be surprised if the old Lightweavers would either be shocked or amused at most of what Shallan is doing. For Lift, I'm expecting a lot of face-palming Lift I suspect the Edgedancers of old would scream their head out upon seeing her, but would also take her in and try to teach her good manners. Brandon has recently stated that he's currently torn between Dalinar, Szeth and Eshonai being the flashback character for book 3 - he's pretty certain about those being the flashback characters for the next 3 books. He said he's going to write the flashback sequences for those 3 and then decide who is most suitable for the next book. I'm pretty sure Brandon has confirmed that the flashback character will not necessarily coincide with the focus Radiant order. He's also stated that ones of the flashback characters (for the series as a whole) will be dead at the time of the book (Eshonai, I suspect). Regarding Szeth in the next book, I don't know how big a part he will play. It may take him some time to get all the way back to Shinovar. Will he get his revenge in book 3 or will it carry over into book 4? Incidentally, I've sometimes wondered if Jasnah is heading for Shinovar too - it's not necessarily the case that she's heading for Urithiru. It's hard to say where Szeth is going longer term. Having Nightblood would likely make forming a spren bond very difficult, for example. We know who the flashbacks will be I agree, but we do not know who the major Radiants will be. Difference. For the longest time, the fandom have assumed both would be the same. Recently, we have find out that won't be true, a fact reinforced by the addition of two Heralds in the flashback sequences. I do not think anyone ever asked Brandon who the 10 major KR viewpoints would be and I doubt he would answer this. I have come to believe the 10 may change in the second arc. We may also not see major character in every order in the first arc. We may see major characters in the same order. We may see anything. There is no pattern It is unsure we will get a dead flashback characters. Brandon said he may not that he would. I guess it could either be Eshonai or Dalinar It could even be Taln or Salash or Jasnah or Renarin... I doubt it would be Lift though. I wonder about the focus Radiant focus... Who will be the focus of next book? Everyone has always assumed it would be Szeth, just like everyone always assumed he would become a Skybreaker. This is not sure, especially now he committed suicide, a big no-no when it comes to Radiants. Nighblood would also make it near impossible for him to have a spren bond. I thus do not think Szeth will become a major KR viewpoint. As for Jasnah, she could be heading towards Shinovar, but she could also be headed towards Heartstone... I do think she needs to meet up with someone to continu her story plot as reading about a character isolated in his own part of the world it not very interesting. For me it isn't though. I love character interaction, so character being left alone is not a plot devise I an found of. I am thus rooting for Jasnah to meet up with Kaladin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 The problem with Rand was not his story arc as a whole, but the fact it lingered into status quo for about 6 books. He ranted and ranted on how he had killed women over and over again. We never got any resolution on this issue, not until the last book. I understand the need for the plot, but it was just too long, which is why I hope Kaladin will not remain depressed forever as it will get as tiring as Rand. Agree about Aviendha, interesting at first, boring in the end. Min, I never liked. I hate the too abundant use of prophecies in stories and Min seemed like a plot devise to me. Ah, right. Monotonous. Yes. Brandon has sometimes used the example of a particular character from "Lost" as a "how not to do it". I haven't seen the show so can't comment but apparently in the first season there's a guy who's son gets kidnapped and afterwards the only thing the guy ever goes on about is his son and it's gets tedious and monotonous very quickly. At least Kaladin is not depressed at the end of WoR (and he's actually fine most of the time at the start until Amaram turns up). Unfortunately, he's back to be being depressed in the early non-canonical scene Brandon released for book 3 (though given the situation I don't blame him for that). In Rand's case, it was very hard for him to avoid killing women so I'm not surprised his situation got worse. I also think his insistence was triggered by his fear of losing her. The event happened a few minutes after he admitted how he did not wish to lose her to Kaladin and this is exactly what happened. Huh? Lose her to Kaladin!? Adolin tends to be over-eager most of the time, but in this case I do not think he was "eager" or "enthusiast", I thought he was afraid he may lose the one girl he actually liked while feeling guilty as he was in part to blame. Not so atypical for Adolin and not so atypical either for Shallan... Shallan just does not know him all that well... and reversely Adolin does not know much of her.... In other words, they are still attuning themselves to each other, which is normal considering they have been dating for a few weeks only. I do not see it as a conflict of desire but a more as a conflict of fears: fear of losing a loved one on Adolin's side, fear of losing her liberty on Shallan's. All in all, they are both afraid, but not of the same thing. Conflict of fears. Good way to put it. We don't see Adolin later ask Shallan about her reaction. She told him it's "not important" so I could see him deciding not to press the issue. But it definitely is important and they'll need to talk about it eventually. Shallan also told Kaladin that where she got her Shardblade from wasn't important either, hehe. On a side note: Shallan's quietly rebelled against being "exiled" to a carriage on the trip towards the center of the Plains - it's clearly an instinctive and automatic reaction. I agree. Whereas some sprens may go "in the wild" as you say to find worthy candidate, I also thing individuals could try to postulate to become a Radiants in Urithihu itself. Dalinar's vision did suggest this. It also implied seeking Urithiru did not guaranty a place in one of the orders, but it was a good way to start. I also think we are under the impression becoming a Radiants is a trial and error process due to Kaladin and Shallan's experiences, but I doubt things were this way back in the day where there were many Radiants. New comers would certainly be taken into care by the older ones. Young knights in becoming such as Shallan and Kaladin would have been tutored by the advanced ones. The trial and error methods we are seeing now seems mostly due to the lack of Radiants and the fact sprens forgot most of what they previously knew. I too would like to know the percentage of bond not achieving maturity... I also wonder if we are going to see failed bonds in current day SA. Hmm. I have this strange idea to compare it to marriage: in Japan there's 3 "types" of marriage - "love" marriages where people just meet randomly, fully arranged marriages where the parents decide and the children don't have much say and what they call an "omiai" which is kinda half-way in-between, where there is an formally arranged meeting but it's officially up to the couple whether they want to take it forwards (some "omiai" are really fully arranged marriages in disguise though). So for spren, "love marriage" = "in the wild", "omiai" = "going to Urithiru in hope of finding someone suitable", and "arranged marriage" is kinda like what happened with Lift and Wyndle. Elhokhar could be an example of a failed bond (never progressed to first stage). Implausible is not a word I understand I LOVE drawing imaginary scenarios in my head of how the story could unfold. Some are more plausible then others, but restraining ourselves to thoughts only within established cannon makes the exercise boring... Even if none of my "possibilities" come out true, I still had fun thinking about them in between books While I very much am a geek, I get excited and curious thinking about future directions for characters. I do get curious about magic systems, background etc but I don't tend to get too excited. I thought Shallan admitting her true feelings towards a love interest would make a nice truth... and it would give the reader an "awe cute" moment Agree Pattern could end up ruining everything... I wonder how Pattern will behave around Adolin... Now he no longer is a secret and is allowed to interact with other human beings: will he support Shallan's current decision to continue with the betrothal, what will he think of events at the end of WoR...? We keep on wondering how the characters will behave, but how about Pattern? He tends to be quite vocal... and curious Well... if you really want such a scene but also want to fit it into the narrative structure of the series so far, I'd suggest a scene where Shallan confesses her love and just before or after also admits to some deep secret. Kaladin seems to get rather special-effects heavy scenes when he makes an oath but Dalinar and Shallan don't (or haven't yet) - which means there doesn't have to be an immediate visual cue when a Radiant goes up a level (though maybe the "final" level will be special). So... we get a scene where Shallan says two separate things and then demonstrates that she's gone up a Radiant level - you can then choose your preferred option as to what was the cause of the power-up! btw... I wasn't suggesting Pattern could "ruin" things in general. I was more thinking that he would make certain tropes more difficult to sustain - eg if he vibrates or otherwise makes a comment every time someone denies being in love when they really are then it would make being in denial much harder. I guess you're more worried about him being a mood killer though, which certainly seems plausible, particularly since Adolin can get bashful at times (Shallan is much more used to Pattern). At least Pattern can keep quiet on request. I guess I meant I have yet to see her make a decision for her inner good, her inner pleasure, her inner happiness. There are things she sees as her duty: saving her family, continuing Jasnah's researches, infiltrating the Ghostblood, but what about herself? What would she like to do for her, just for her? We have yet to see this as most of her decisions have been so far driven by need and necessity more than desire. Right, stuff like her drawings but on a grander (long term) scale. She is able to sneak in little things into her life often enough but yeah, she could do with some nice dream to aspire to once she has time. Back in tWoK there is this section from chapter 33: The world was a wondrous place. She hungered to learn more, wished to observe each and every one of its creatures, to have sketches of them in her books. To organize Roshar by capturing it in images. The books she read, though wonderful, all felt incomplete. Each author would be good with words or with drawings, but rarely both. And if the author was good with both, then her grasp of science would be poor. There were so many holes in their understanding. Holes that Shallan could fill. I wouldn't be at all surprised if she writes a book or three in the 10-15 year break between the two halves of SA. (I also have this funny idea of her writing erotic novels under a pseudonym during times when she's away from Adolin for a while, eg due to travel or whatever. Some nice safe outlet...) SA is going to span over more than 20 years. Half our cast is under the age of 25. It is illogical and unrealistic to think none of them would end up married and having children at some point. Shallan being the only woman, it makes it even more likely she would tie down the knot. Besides, married life would not stop her from continuing her apprenticeships as she was quiet clear she would never allowed being put into a tower. Considering how much multi-tasking Shallan is already doing, I'm certainly not worried about her being able to juggle multiple priorities on multiple levels. My current feeling is that she will spend quite a bit of time feeling wistful for a simpler life with few responsibilities while making her life more complex and taking on (or at least not avoiding) new responsibilities. If she really does get fed up I think she could simply walk away from it all but I don't think she's that likely to in practice (unless someone important to her dies). I would not be at all surprised if she gets offered the throne of Jah Keved when Taravangian dies (or similar), for example. Would she accept? I could see her agree to it quite reluctantly, probably using the argument that at least she knows she'd be bad at it but at least she wouldn't have to endure the other alternatives screwing things up. I've had fun thinking of how what kind of queen she would make (probably a very unusual one). Brandon did say he would show us an Alethi weeding at some point. I thus think it likely to see Adolin and Shallan getting married at the end of either book 4 or 5. I know most of the fandom believe we are going to see Dalinar and Navani getting married, but I strongly disagree for many reasons. 1) Vorinism forbids them from getting married. People often make the arguments the return of the Radiants would eventually destroy Vorinism thus making Dalinar and Navani relationship acceptable. I agree it is likely to happen, but not in the scope of a few months or even a few years. Profound change such as this usually happen through out years and generations. Besides, Dalinar seeks to unite. He would not risk dividing simply to publicly profess his love to Navani, not when he can have her in private. Alethi can be quite accepting of things kept in the shadow, such as a forbidden union. 2) They don't need to get married. They are pass the age were they need to scream their love to the world. 3) It would be horribly anti-climatic to see our young cast make it through the first half, single while the only lasting long-term establish relationship is between the aging characters. 4) Adolin needs to marry. This has been stated often enough. It is logical he'll end up marrying someone. It's against Vorin tradition yes, but I wonder just how much that is going to change with the Almighty being dead and all (I wonder if that will become a big issue in the story). No, they don't need to get married but I personally support older characters being able to have the same kinds of character arcs and resolutions as younger characters. I agree it would be a downer if the first half ends without some clear long term pairings for the younger generation. For Adolin, it's more like he needs stability... and hey, we can always have more than one Alethi wedding. As for the second arc, as a 10 to 15 years gap is planned, it would also be unrealistic if neither Kaladin, Adolin and Shallan had children of their own. I expect Adolin, at the very least, to have a few (5 or 6 with Shallan to be more precise if they do end up together, I expect hem to have a large family ). Moreover, I expect to see the third generation of Kohlin brothers in the next arc... Incidentally, my current expectation is for Kaladin to be single at the start of the second half... with a similar reputation to what Adolin has now I do not think Jasnah would have solved it in time. She is too careful. Solving the puzzled required taking greater risks than Jasnah usually do. She may be reckless at time, but not when it comes to research. Actually, the more I think about it, the more confident I am that Jasnah could have figured it out in time... though only due to being better prepared. She had investigated the Oathgate in Kholinar after all (I suspect it was deliberately disabled) and in general had a lot more time to gather information and prepare solutions in advance compared to Shallan. Problem 1 is simply the location of Stormseat - but it's basically the middle of a very big circle. Problem 2 is the location of the Oathgate within Stormseat - Shallan was having trouble figuring out the scale of the ancient maps she had, but if Jasnah already had figured that out, locating the dais would likely have been relatively simple. Problem 3 is activating it - no technical reason why Jasnah could not, I believe. Actually, I thought mastering any surge within a few weeks was slightly too fast. This comment is valid for both Shallan and Kaladin. I agree she has made mistakes, but not ones with consequences. Everything of consequences, she mastered, so far. Going by a time-line I found, Shallan had about 70 days between drawing/summoning Pattern at the beginning and day 0 of the countdown. It takes approximately 30 days until she can reliably do Lightweaving. It would be interesting to know how much having a spren helps and also how much of a difference it makes that Shallan already had childhood experience and started with already quite a strong bond. If we compare things to Mistborn, having 2 Surges (and Shallan is just using 1) is simpler than all the Mistborn powers, though more complex than a Misting. For Radiants, I think Brandon deliberately made them simple enough so that "wilders" can figure them out without a master. The Surges don't seem that hard to activate - Kaladin has trouble early on because he doesn't even know what to do and has a very weak bond (I suspect the first Oath doesn't do too much). With a master to teach them, I suspect they would have improved 10x faster, probably even more early on. That being said, Shallan does have a "block" in that her Lightweaving is strongly dependant on her drawings even though it shouldn't be. One thing I'd like to see, even if it's a minor thing, is if Shallan can teach Renarin, since they both share the Lightweaving Surge, Shallan's "block" notwithstanding. As for Jasnah, she could be heading towards Shinovar, but she could also be headed towards Heartstone... I do think she needs to meet up with someone to continu her story plot as reading about a character isolated in his own part of the world it not very interesting. For me it isn't though. I love character interaction, so character being left alone is not a plot devise I an found of. I am thus rooting for Jasnah to meet up with Kaladin Well, maybe Wit will hang around a bit... Jasnah talks about seeking records at the end... I doubt she'll be doing something boring like go back to Kharbranth. The 3 most obvious options I can think of is Urithiru, Shinovar and the Vorin Holy Conclave in Jah Keved. But yes, I think Jasnah bumping into Kaladin in Kholinar is quite plausible and would be more than a bit interesting 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 I have just lost my reply. This is a sad day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Sorry to hear that Maxal. I have another post for this thread I started working on some time ago but never finished. I'll see if I can finish it off, since you may be more interested in replying to that post rather than re-writing a previous post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 Yeah well I was completely dispirited to see my long response being lost to the wonderful world of the Internet I'll get back to you, but most likely not today. Busy day today. In the mean time, you may publish your other post. More goodies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Did anyone else happen to notice that there are 16 personality types? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 I do not think Adolin left enough clues behind him to have anyone publicly accuse him of being the murderer which is why I am leaning towards Adolin, overridden by guilt, eventually opening up to his family. I don't know if we'll see an "overridden by guilt" Adolin but given that he's a heart-on-sleeve kinda guy I suspect he would have difficulty hiding his emotions either way. I can certainly see him confessing for one reason or another. It's hard to say just how well he has covered his tracks but my general feeling is that while there may be little immediate direct evidence to connect him to the murder, given how openly he has railed against Sadeas I wouldn't be at all surprised if many people suspect him anyway - Sadeas himself once warned Adolin that he was being too free/public with his threats. One way or another, I suspect that Adolin's role in Sadeas's death will come out quite quickly - probably around chapter 10 of book 3 (and that would include several chapters outside of Urithiru). In one of my possible scenarios, Renarin gets slightly sad and distressed upon thinking Adolin is rejecting him because of his new powers. His brother has grown distant, he is drifting away, evading him and Renarin thinks he is to blame. He even comes to think Adolin has gotten jealous of him. He ends up calling him out for it, but being Renarin is comes out bad. Adolin flips out, realizing he is hurting his brother and end up thinking he is the world most awful big brother. Seeing his brother's reaction, Renarin catch something is wrong, definitely wrong and manages to drag the truth out of him. I have also heard other people theorizing Renarin would get visions of his brother being the culprit. Since I am unsure if his visions are this specific, I am leaning towards him finding out the truth because he is the Truthwatcher. He drags the truth out: it is what he does and Adolin is his brother. He knows him better than anyone else. He has to be the one to figure it out. Renarin is certainly a hard one to predict, both in terms of how he would react and what his powers can do. I would certainly not be surprised if Truthwatchers did have the ability to intentionally see specific past events via the Illumination Surge (and possibly in combination with his spren's natural abilities or the Progression Surge) since Shallan has already done something similar - her drawings of the sailors surviving and Shalash in chapter 30. So far Renarin seems to have rather poor control over his powers though - his future visions were entirely involuntary apperently and my feeling is that he's only recently realised that he's a Radiant. So if he does use his powers to somehow to figure out who killed Sadeas it would probably be somewhat accidental due to it all being very new to him. If Dalinar ordered Renarin to avoid/ignore Adolin because of Sadeas, I wonder what Renarin would do? I could see him complying but feeling highly conflicted and wishing to help solve the situation. I don't think he'd fully side with either Dalinar or Adolin - instead I'm guessing he'll partly agree and partly disagree with both. Or maybe I'll be wrong and he'll very strongly take one side (Adolin would be my guess if he does). We'll learn a lot about Renarin by how he deals with the situation. From there, it is only a step before Dalinar learns the truth and the Kohlin household ends up with a gigantic problem: what to do with Adolin. In part they want to protect him, in other part they are going to be angry and disappointed with him. I guess the truth will eventually become a public matter, but not before the Kohlins have time to draft out a plan. We can safely say that it would certainly be a complication they really don't need - the world is trending towards destruction after all. One interesting thing for me is that I don't think Brandon is likely to push one answer (or character) to be "correct" - ie that there's multiple options that reasonable people could consider "the best solution". I see Adolin doing either two things: entering the shouting match with Dalinar, openly raging against the Way of Kings he hates so much, yelling about how they let the men responsible for the death of 6000 of their men walk free to finally break down and state Sadeas tried to murder Dalinar... The other possible reaction is him cowering in front of Dalinar. Upon knowing he is guilty, he has disappointed his father, he would simply give up and ask for punishment. Since he did it in tWoK already I can certainly see Adolin getting into a shouting match with Dalinar - though I don't remember any indication that Adolin hates the in-world Way of Kings book. Do you think he does or do you mean you think Adolin could say such a thing unintentionally due to his frustrations? I don't see Adolin "cowering" before Dalinar in any situation though - resigned, yes, regret at the effect on others, yes, but not cowering. I don't see Adolin changing his views simply because Dalinar is disappointed with him since Adolin has been wanting to do something about Sadeas for a long time. I think Adolin will stand up for what he believes is right and that it's part of what will break him - the conflict between his beliefs and the effect his actions have on those near and dear to him. I don't know if it'll become a major factor in the novel but I expect that Adolin will get a lot of moral support from the Kholin soldiers. How does making a private arrangement goes against his ideal? He has sworn to unite and not divide. If he goes too hard on his son, he'll divide his family for a matter of rigid morality. However, if he does nothing, he'll do the same. I think the answer to the dilemma is Dalinar needing to realized his son has done something wrong for the right reason and admit being guiding requires also being forgiving. A private arrangement does seem to offer the best of both worlds: it satisfy the Highprinces the situation was dealt with and it avoids having to break his family by sending his son into exile. I am pretty sure the last thing Dalinar would want is to banish Adolin. He'll want to keep a very close eye on him from now on, not the opposite. I see it as somewhat going against both "strength before weakness" and "journey before destination". What happened with Sadeas is not a private matter that only affects the Kholins or Highprinces and hiding the truth with a private arrangement could have serious long term consequences - it reeks of "cover up". Dalinar has also vowed to bind people together - bit hard to do that properly if certain members of society get treated fundamentally differently to others. Dalinar could easily come across as being a hypocrite and if he does do a private deal then I would bet that Ialai would expose it in order to undermine Dalinar's moral standing. This is I think the crux of Dalinar's dilemma: part of him will be fiercely protective of Adolin and part of him will want to make an example of Adolin. It may be that another part of him would want to see everyone treated equally and fairly - I've sometimes wondered if the Ideals of Bondsmiths may be about "equality". I think the contrary. I think he needs to lose the Blade to realize the depth of the attachment he has towards it. As long as he keeps it, their relation will remain platonic, but losing it would trigger many emotions probably required to re-awake a dead Blade. In a way, I am thinking the secret to resurrect a dead Blade is care. Love. They were betrayed. They need to remember they were once loved and cared for, which is why Adolin may succeed. However, simply expressing care and love is not sufficient. I think the proto-Radiant may need to be willing to sacrifice himself for the Blade such as the spren would comprehend the relationship goes both ways. They were killed. Perhaps they need to have someone caring about them so much they end up willing to risk their own life to assert their claim on them. In other words, Blade-less Adolin would eventually go on a crusade to gain his Blade back and manage to re-kink the bond he once had with it, despite having broken it. It is said breaking the stone prevents that, thought it is thought to be an old legend. I think Adolin may prove them wrong by doing it, probably in the mist of a battle going horribly wrong from him. Something like that, but he needs to lose the Blade. I'd be very surprised to be wrong about Adolin losing his shards. As for the breakthrough, I have thought he may finally learn its name minutes before being forced to break the bond.... How about that? It's quite interesting how even though we have been able to come to agreement about a lot of things about Adolin we seem to have highly divergent viewpoints on this. Unsurprisingly, predicting the future (as it were) is quite difficult when there's no obvious solution and few solid facts Regarding learn the name of his Shardblade... this is actually something I've wondered about occurring early on rather than late on and it being a small part of what leads him down the path to success. For example, I've imagined scenes of him asking Shallan if she could do anything to figure out the name of the Blade/spren - I think we'll see Shallan investigating Soulcasting a lot in the next book and her stepping into Shadesmar while holding Adolin's Shardblade could be one approach to learning more about Shadesmar. But that's highly speculative (and yes there I go again imagining Shallan doing all sorts of things...) The following is a longer version of my current vision of how Adolin could break and also revive his blade... I don't think Brandon has changed his view on how hard it is to revive a "dead" Blade and even if Adolin does achieve this in the next book I'm not expecting anyone to replicate the feat any time soon. It'll probably take the right person in the right place at the right time - maybe something more like the historical chance a darkeyes gets to win Blade or Plate. If that is the case then even in the second half of the series we might not see anyone else replicating it. Or maybe it won't be quite that hard and we'll see a few other examples. But that's speculation for things we won't be seeing for a long time... Pattern speculates that “Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done [to restore the dead spren]”. He don't comment on the possibility of reviving/restoring them without their knights but since he already said that they tried and failed to restore the dead ones by themselves the implication is that "maybe if their original knight still lived it could be possible but without it is pretty much impossible". Either way, the feeling I get is that Pattern (and others) would be very surprised if Adolin succeeded - he might be the first person in the history of Roshar to accomplish it. Why not before? Probably because before the Recreance knights betraying and killing their spren were very rare and the resulting Blade would not have been "used". Since the Recreance and until just recently there's been plenty of Blades but I think it's highly likely that some access to Stormlight would be required which means a spren bond, even if a weak one. So, what combination of circumstances is required? Firstly, I think the human needs to "match" the spren from the Blade very closely. I suspect that not only would Adolin need to be suitable to joining the Edgedancers but that his personality would have to be very similar to the original Knight. We know (but have not yet seen in-world) that not all Knights for the same Order will say the exact same Oaths - though they would be conceptually very similar. Hmm, something that just occurred to me: the Knights from the Recreance would likely have been using the Dawnchant or similar rather than the modern tongue, so would Adolin need to learn Dawnchant somehow!? (In Dalinar's visions he never spoke anything that modern people could understand) Or would it be enough to simply be "equivalent"? Ponder... Anyway, let's just say that Adolin will likely need to be close enough in personality to the original Knight that the spren could feel that it is the same person (I don't think looks would matter because the spren would probably not be able to "see" the physical realm until it revives). But consider this - as Knights progress through their Oaths they develop and change. So Adolin would need to match a Knight who had already gone through that process but without having done so himself - I don't think Adolin would be able to revive his Blade if he had a proper bond with another spren, though he would probably need a weak enough bond (ie no Oaths spoken) to get some limited access to Stormlight. Alternatively, it may be possible to access Stormlight via the dead spren before it revives but if that was possible it would mean it was possible to revive the spren at any time since the Recreance which seems less likely to me. So far, I've just discussed the "circumstances" that could be required to revive a Blade and not the "process". To summarise these circumstances: I think Adolin would need to be "broken" enough to from a Nahel bond, to actually have attracted a living spren but not yet spoken any Oaths with it and that he would need to very strongly match the personality of the original Knight. (btw, I think Adolin shows supernatural skill at duelling so has possibly had a preliminary Nahel bond for some time but maybe hasn't been "broken" enough for it to develop further). That seems like the right kind of balance of difficulty and luck required. I'm not so sure about the "process". Would repeatedly summoning and banishing the Blade help? Or make things worse? Does the added gem that allows summoning help or make things worse? Because of the gem Adolin already has a weak "bond" to the Blade - does he somehow need to strengthen that into a Nahel bond? It takes a week to form that weak gem based bond, so I think it would take longer to strengthen that bond enough to revive the spren. I'm pretty sure Stormlight would be needed at some point near the end of the process to heal the spren (Would it help that Edgedancers get Regrowth? Maybe). I would expect that as Adolin gets closer to succeeding he would start to hear his Blade screaming and he would have to ignore/embrace that and press on. So in what kind of situation is all this going to happen? My "image" of such a situation is of Adolin being stuck in a room (basically imprisoned) for weeks on end, where he feels that every he cares about has turned their back on him. He feels increasingly alone and isolated. Yet he still has his Shardblade, the only "friend" he has left. Why does he not escape? Because he promised he would not and does not want to lose what little remains of his honour. I see his mental state deteriorating to the point that we worry about his sanity. I see him shunning the outside world and getting obsessed with his sword. Is this remotely typical of Adolin? No. But I see this happening as part of him breaking. Maybe there's ways to achieve the same thing that seem rather more in keeping with his personality but I think Adolin deteriorating and showing atypical behaviour would be good "proof" of his breaking. Just to be clear, I'm expecting this to be a short term change and he will revert to something close to his original self once things are settled. The concept I'm sketching above is more like "Adolin breaks and revives the spren in his sword while at it" rather than them being two separate events. This feels necessary to me because I think Adolin would probably have to strongly focus on his sword for an extended period - he's not the type of person to take an academic approach and solve the "puzzle" a piece at a time in his spare time. Also, given that his sword has been in an "agony cycle" for 1500 years or so I think it could help if Adolin goes through something similar as part of the process. It could be the opposite though and he needs to be in a healthy state of mind to have a chance of reviving the spren. For the above, I've tried to focus just on Adolin rather than the "big picture". We can return to that later... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 Did anyone else happen to notice that there are 16 personality types? Well, maybe it's just my background as a programmer (I can think in base 16) but it's quite an ordinary number to me Other personality schemes (eg big 5) have more personality types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted March 15, 2015 Report Share Posted March 15, 2015 I don't know if we'll see an "overridden by guilt" Adolin but given that he's a heart-on-sleeve kinda guy I suspect he would have difficulty hiding his emotions either way. I can certainly see him confessing for one reason or another. It's hard to say just how well he has covered his tracks but my general feeling is that while there may be little immediate direct evidence to connect him to the murder, given how openly he has railed against Sadeas I wouldn't be at all surprised if many people suspect him anyway - Sadeas himself once warned Adolin that he was being too free/public with his threats. One way or another, I suspect that Adolin's role in Sadeas's death will come out quite quickly - probably around chapter 10 of book 3 (and that would include several chapters outside of Urithiru). My thought on the matter.... Adolin being a strong F-type, his initial reaction to all unpredicted situations is based on feelings. In other words, he needs to process his emotional response to any new event before being able to reason it out rationally. T-type individuals, on the other hand, will rationalize the unseen before event, ponder on it before analyzing how they feel about it, if they ever do. As a result, F-type people can easily get emotionally overwhelmed as they need to treat each and every emotional response before being able to move on. Worst, as long as they do not process their feelings and sort through them, they have issues rationalizing the problem at end. Emotions thus pill up until comes a time where the most insignificant event is enough to make them overflow. Adolin, I believe, has reach such a situation by the end of WoR. His inner cup is full of emotions and up until he manages to deal with them, his thinking capacity will be reduced. He won't have enough buffer to deal with the day to day small events. He'll get snappy, overly emotive over small things, stressed out and just plain unstable. Guilt will, of course, be one the main emotions he'll have to deal with in order to regain a better mental health state. His loved ones may wonder what has gotten to him, but they may also think he is just overreacting to the return of the Radiants... They probably won't think much else of it, until Adolin ends up so filled up he reaches a point where he has to get it out. Then, he'll talk. My guess is it won't take him long to get there either. However, speaking up will most likely create a new wage of emotions and he'll go straight back into emotional overflow mode. Guilt, fear, anger, love, sadness, hurt, rejection, pride, worth or loss of worth will mix together until they make a huge ball on unidentified emotions and he won't even know where to start to filter them out. My guess is it will escalate up until it becomes too much for him to keep on coping and then, he'll break or crack or something. As for people accusing him, accusing a highborn ligheye of such a basic murder is a huge deal. I doubt anyone would accuse him without solid proof. I doubt he hid his traces all that well, but I an unsure of he left sufficient clues to have the murder linked to him. I agree the truth will most probably come out in the first third of book 3. If not in the first part, in the second for sure. Renarin is certainly a hard one to predict, both in terms of how he would react and what his powers can do. I would certainly not be surprised if Truthwatchers did have the ability to intentionally see specific past events via the Illumination Surge (and possibly in combination with his spren's natural abilities or the Progression Surge) since Shallan has already done something similar - her drawings of the sailors surviving and Shalash in chapter 30. So far Renarin seems to have rather poor control over his powers though - his future visions were entirely involuntary apperently and my feeling is that he's only recently realised that he's a Radiant. So if he does use his powers to somehow to figure out who killed Sadeas it would probably be somewhat accidental due to it all being very new to him. We do not know much about Renarin that is true. However, his order implies some quest to uncovered truths and Adolin may very well just be one of Renarin's first action as a Truthwatcher. He does seem to have poor control, but he also was in severe denial as to what was happening to him. He did not acknowledge himself a Radiant until the end and only reluctantly. I figured now he has, at the very least, made the step towards accepting himself, he may learn better control. It is true he may get an unwanted vision giving him definite clues as to his brother's involvement in the murder. Or he'll piece it out together as nobody reads Adolin better then him. The more unhinged his brother will be, the more Renarin will dig to figure out what is bothering him so much. We already established Adolin cannot hide how he feels. Impossible nobody will notice he is not feeling right, but my thoughts have always been most people won't discover why until Adolin speaks up. In my mind, Renarin is the one making Adolin speak the truth. How is a matter of story telling, but I strongly feel he will be involved in this plot line. If Dalinar ordered Renarin to avoid/ignore Adolin because of Sadeas, I wonder what Renarin would do? I could see him complying but feeling highly conflicted and wishing to help solve the situation. I don't think he'd fully side with either Dalinar or Adolin - instead I'm guessing he'll partly agree and partly disagree with both. Or maybe I'll be wrong and he'll very strongly take one side (Adolin would be my guess if he does). We'll learn a lot about Renarin by how he deals with the situation. You think Dalinar would order such a thing? You think Dalinar would be mad enough to unofficially banish Adolin from the family and try to force Renarin to follow his guidance? This would be the harshest course of actions Dalinar could potentially follow. My thoughts on this possible scenario is Renarin would side with Adolin. The brothers are very close and I think we will soon find out how much. One of my speculative guess (unsupported by any clues nor WoB much like your perfect twin Shallan's theory) is the brothers swore they would take care of each other when their mother died. They were left alone with a waring father who most likely spend months at a time away from the household. They were kids. All they had was each other, so they grew even closer and decided to stick together no matter what. So far, Adolin has been the one most actively protecting his younger brother, an easy to endorse role for him, being the eldest and the strongest (by Alethi standards), but I figured Renarin would do just the same, providing he could figure out how. So on the day Adolin collapses, Renarin is the one to pick him up, because it is what brothers do, isn't it? This is all speculative of course. Only one of the thousand ways I could see the story unfold. We can safely say that it would certainly be a complication they really don't need - the world is trending towards destruction after all. One interesting thing for me is that I don't think Brandon is likely to push one answer (or character) to be "correct" - ie that there's multiple options that reasonable people could consider "the best solution". I agree with this. Not one solution is perfect, but the Kohlins will have to deal with Adolin. The question is how far will they go and when will they consider Adolin's debt has been paid. Since he did it in tWoK already I can certainly see Adolin getting into a shouting match with Dalinar - though I don't remember any indication that Adolin hates the in-world Way of Kings book. Do you think he does or do you mean you think Adolin could say such a thing unintentionally due to his frustrations? I don't see Adolin "cowering" before Dalinar in any situation though - resigned, yes, regret at the effect on others, yes, but not cowering. I don't see Adolin changing his views simply because Dalinar is disappointed with him since Adolin has been wanting to do something about Sadeas for a long time. I think Adolin will stand up for what he believes is right and that it's part of what will break him - the conflict between his beliefs and the effect his actions have on those near and dear to him. I don't know if it'll become a major factor in the novel but I expect that Adolin will get a lot of moral support from the Kholin soldiers. In WoR, at the kings counsel, following the attack of the Assassin in White, Adolin comes very close to punch Sadeas but is fortunately stopped by Amaram. Amaram then tries to sooth him using arguments Adolin found very reminiscent of his father and thinks to himself that if Amaram starts quoting the Way of Kings, he'll scream his head out. In other words, Adolin understands what is father is trying to achieve and comprehends the tenets of the Way of Kings but I do not think he agrees with all of it. In fact, his father strict obedience to it, without any leeway, is hard for him to endorse. So when Dalinar brings forward the Way of Kings to further accuse Adolin of crime against the nation for murdering Sadeas, I can see Adolin shouting back and trusting the book into the fire in a fit of rage I can see Adolin's frustration and emotional mumbo-jumbo push him into saying things outside his thoughts. I can also see Dalinar, afterwards, asking quietly Navani where it is he has failed as a father with his son... How could his Adolin, his over-eager boy always willing to help, ever come down to this? Not only Adolin will hurt in the process: Dalinar will questioned himself. Cowering may have been a bad choice of word. I meant more submissive. Resigned. Ashamed. He won't be able to fully accept his acts are worst than everything Sadeas has done, but he will be crushed at seeing his family being harmed for it. He will be destroyed to see his father credibility broken because of him. This is what will harm him the most: not breaking the law to kill Sadeas, but seeing the disappointment in his life-long hero's eyes and the thought he may have destroyed Dalinar's work in one single action. Because of all this, he'll accept punishment, worst he may even go as far as to seek it himself in order to absolve his own guilt over breaking Dalinar's trust. I have thought what would break Adolin is losing all holds dear by his own hands. He feared so much for those he loved he snapped at a mass murderer taunting him one time too much and killed him in an angry gesture. As a result, he'll lose their support, their love (in his head, not for real, he'll be recall they love him at some point) and will realize by trying to protect them he has, in fact, undermine their credibility. He'll become the nasty stain house Kohlin will have to drag forward up until Adolin finds way to absolve his name, providing such way exist. As for the soldiers, I have often written how I thought the darkeyes would support Adolin. I can see the Kohlin army offering their open support to their young general. After winning the 4 on 1 duel, after sitting out in prison for a darkeye and especially after giving out shards to one, I would not be surprised to hear Adolin Kohlin is one of the most appreciated lighteye (and most spoken name) in the darkeyed community. The soldiers and more importantly the bridgemen will be glad Sadeas is dead. The fact Adolin killed him may very well propel him to the rank of hero amongst the commoners as finally they have found one: one honorable lighteyed willing to do what it takes for his people. I would not be surprised to find out the men are moving their support from Dalinar to Adolin if the first proves too harsh on the son. I see it as somewhat going against both "strength before weakness" and "journey before destination". What happened with Sadeas is not a private matter that only affects the Kholins or Highprinces and hiding the truth with a private arrangement could have serious long term consequences - it reeks of "cover up". Dalinar has also vowed to bind people together - bit hard to do that properly if certain members of society get treated fundamentally differently to others. Dalinar could easily come across as being a hypocrite and if he does do a private deal then I would bet that Ialai would expose it in order to undermine Dalinar's moral standing. This is I think the crux of Dalinar's dilemma: part of him will be fiercely protective of Adolin and part of him will want to make an example of Adolin. It may be that another part of him would want to see everyone treated equally and fairly - I've sometimes wondered if the Ideals of Bondsmiths may be about "equality". I disagree about the first sentence. We can argue there is strength in stepping out of the law to remove a greater threat. Their is risk to oneself in choosing to walk down this path. So was Adolin strong to kill Sadeas or weak for not being able to control his emotions? I guess arguments can be made both ways, but we have to agree the killing is a defining moment. It is the instant where Adolin steps out of Dalinar's guidance and takes a stand for what he truly believes, deep deep down. I also disagree killing Sadeas was the end. It was the beginning. There were no other means to deal with Sadeas. The Kohlins tried everything they could and failed. For Adolin, the killing is another step on a journey. This first steps were losing the Thrill. Murdering a killer was another one, a very important one as it dissociates him from his father, it allows him to finally grow into his own man. Oh he'll have a horrible time out of it, he'll ache, he'll most likely break in the process, but in the end he will the man he was meant to be which is not a more polished version of Dalinar as when you look at things more closely, father and son do not have much in common. I agree covering it up could become an issue on the long run, but I do not see it as a complete cover up. Everyone would know Adolin is the culprit, but as long as the Sadeas do not issue formal complaints, nothing can be done. Same deal Sadeas received. He killed thousands, but without proofs, he is allowed to walk free. I can see Adolin being the know culprit, but escaping justice because Dalinar stroke a deal to keep accusations at bay. I think Dalinar's first reaction will be to go hard on Adolin, to make an example out of him, but things will run out of control. At some point, Dalinar will realize he can't sacrifice the boy he loves so much for the sake of Sadeas of all people and he'll revise his position. I envision some awakening moment on Dalinar's side, most likely tied to another oath. How? Various options, but I think it is possible Adolin will end up in a predicament worst then the 4 on 1 duel which would put Dalinar back into Ultimate Daddy Bear mode. It's quite interesting how even though we have been able to come to agreement about a lot of things about Adolin we seem to have highly divergent viewpoints on this. Unsurprisingly, predicting the future (as it were) is quite difficult when there's no obvious solution and few solid facts When it comes to speculations, it is hard to fully agree. I am not entirely unbiased when I speculate as I tend to choose scenarios I would like to read and of course these scenarios are heavily tainted by whoever is my favorite character at the time. I would love to see Adolin loose his shards as I think it would give him much character growth not to mention having him r-kink his bond later one would make for a dramatic scene Of course, in the absence of solid facts, wild speculations are allowed We cannot thus say I am right and you are wrong or the opposite. We both have an idea of what could happen. Half the fun is to try to draft out possible scenarios, even we end up being wrong. Regarding learn the name of his Shardblade... this is actually something I've wondered about occurring early on rather than late on and it being a small part of what leads him down the path to success. For example, I've imagined scenes of him asking Shallan if she could do anything to figure out the name of the Blade/spren - I think we'll see Shallan investigating Soulcasting a lot in the next book and her stepping into Shadesmar while holding Adolin's Shardblade could be one approach to learning more about Shadesmar. But that's highly speculative (and yes there I go again imagining Shallan doing all sorts of things...) Lately, I have come to believe the key to reviving a dead Blade is the Radiants. In other words, Adolin would need the Radiants help, probably to provide a full link between him and the spren via their Nahel bond. My thoughts were he needs to say the oaths (How many he has to say, I dunno. Is one enough or does he need to say two or maybe all five? No way he can figure out five oaths without guidance...) while a Radiant (or several, in my head I am envisioning Renarin, Shallan and Kaladin holding their hands over Adolin's in a gesture reminiscent of the four musketeers ) touches the Blade at the same time... I guess your idea of Shallan going into Shadesmar with the Blade follows this logic. The dead spren need a path back, a link back towards either the physical or the cognitive realm. Besides, Shallan dragging Adolin (he has to come too) and his Blade into Shadesmar would be interesting to say the least. I am also half of the opinion Adolin will be slightly traumatized to learn his Blade is a dead spren. He'll most likely angst he is hurting it, so I am unsure he would specifically ask help to uncover the name of his Blade... In my favored scenario, after he re-kinked his bond with his Blade, it starts behaving abnormally. He is able to summon it, to dismiss it, but without the jewel at the pommel (it broke when he called it back). However, it demands him a very high level of concentration he has a hard time achieving. He only seems to manage in the worst possible times, but in one of the battles, he hears it, a soft whisper and by the end of the book, he is referring to his strangely behaving Blade by a new name. The Kohlins think he has finally decided to give it a name I don't think Brandon has changed his view on how hard it is to revive a "dead" Blade and even if Adolin does achieve this in the next book I'm not expecting anyone to replicate the feat any time soon. It'll probably take the right person in the right place at the right time - maybe something more like the historical chance a darkeyes gets to win Blade or Plate. If that is the case then even in the second half of the series we might not see anyone else replicating it. Or maybe it won't be quite that hard and we'll see a few other examples. But that's speculation for things we won't be seeing for a long time... Pattern speculates that “Perhaps if their knights still lived, something could be done [to restore the dead spren]”. He don't comment on the possibility of reviving/restoring them without their knights but since he already said that they tried and failed to restore the dead ones by themselves the implication is that "maybe if their original knight still lived it could be possible but without it is pretty much impossible". Either way, the feeling I get is that Pattern (and others) would be very surprised if Adolin succeeded - he might be the first person in the history of Roshar to accomplish it. Why not before? Probably because before the Recreance knights betraying and killing their spren were very rare and the resulting Blade would not have been "used". Since the Recreance and until just recently there's been plenty of Blades but I think it's highly likely that some access to Stormlight would be required which means a spren bond, even if a weak one. I also think Adolin reviving his Blade would be a one of king event. My thoughts were, if you go back to my previous paragraph, he needs a link between him and the Blade, which implies another Radiant. So, what combination of circumstances is required? Firstly, I think the human needs to "match" the spren from the Blade very closely. I suspect that not only would Adolin need to be suitable to joining the Edgedancers but that his personality would have to be very similar to the original Knight. We know (but have not yet seen in-world) that not all Knights for the same Order will say the exact same Oaths - though they would be conceptually very similar. Hmm, something that just occurred to me: the Knights from the Recreance would likely have been using the Dawnchant or similar rather than the modern tongue, so would Adolin need to learn Dawnchant somehow!? (In Dalinar's visions he never spoke anything that modern people could understand) Or would it be enough to simply be "equivalent"? Ponder... Anyway, let's just say that Adolin will likely need to be close enough in personality to the original Knight that the spren could feel that it is the same person (I don't think looks would matter because the spren would probably not be able to "see" the physical realm until it revives). But consider this - as Knights progress through their Oaths they develop and change. So Adolin would need to match a Knight who had already gone through that process but without having done so himself - I don't think Adolin would be able to revive his Blade if he had a proper bond with another spren, though he would probably need a weak enough bond (ie no Oaths spoken) to get some limited access to Stormlight. Alternatively, it may be possible to access Stormlight via the dead spren before it revives but if that was possible it would mean it was possible to revive the spren at any time since the Recreance which seems less likely to me. For me, it is a given Adolin needs to be someone this particular spren would have chosen. Having the right attributes are not sufficient, the spren needs to like him, to want him as a knight, so yes I'd say he would need to resemble the previous knight (and those before him if there were any). I do not think his experiences need to match as closely those of the old knight... Just being the right person may be sufficient. Do we know if the dead Blade are truly blind when summoned? They get glimpses of the world and Brandon did say they were not completely static... So what if the spren can see Adolin when he summons it to speak to it? Perhaps it has some conscience, perhaps it is aware when it changes holder, perhaps it was impressed to see a teenager (Sadeas's reaction to Adolin being a full shardbearer makes me think he has earned his at an abnormally young age) win her in an unmatched duel 6 years ago, perhaps it thought he was dancing well on the field, perhaps it is able to catch an idea of who is holding her bond.... Well, it has too for Adolin to revive it. I do not dismiss your theory stormlight is required to revive the dead Blade, but you have in point in saying, it could have been possible before. Which leads back to my theory... what do they have now they haven't seen since the Recreance? Radiants. Radiants can hear the dead spren. They have to be the missing key. So far, I've just discussed the "circumstances" that could be required to revive a Blade and not the "process". To summarise these circumstances: I think Adolin would need to be "broken" enough to from a Nahel bond, to actually have attracted a living spren but not yet spoken any Oaths with it and that he would need to very strongly match the personality of the original Knight. (btw, I think Adolin shows supernatural skill at duelling so has possibly had a preliminary Nahel bond for some time but maybe hasn't been "broken" enough for it to develop further). That seems like the right kind of balance of difficulty and luck required. I'm not so sure about the "process". I agree he needs to be broken. That is a given. All Radiants need to be broken. I am unsure about your theory he needs to attract a living spren such as to give him stormlight access...... Would he then have two sprens fighting for him? Which order would this living spren be from? Same order? Another one? You can be fitted for two orders....... So if they are from the same order, which spren is he bonding? All these questions lead me to believe he will not get a living spren bond prior to revive his Blade. As for his skill in dueling, I do not think it is supernatural. Adolin started training at the age of 6. From Dalinar's admission, he has worked very hard to reach the level he currently is at. He also had a very good swords master though I strongly suspect he was not Adolin's first and only teacher. I have an idea Adolin, following his mother's death, grew up arrogant and know-it-all when it came to sword fighting and decided he had nothing left to learn. As a result, all the Ardents refused to teach him anymore until Zahel showed up and wondered why the talented kid was left to practice his own. He then tamed the tiger cub and managed to make him understand he needed a teacher, probably by pointing him all the bad habits he had develop due to him starting up so young. That's an idea I had in my mind on how, why and when Zahel became Adolin's teacher, somewhere when Adolin was 13 years old. Would repeatedly summoning and banishing the Blade help? Or make things worse? Does the added gem that allows summoning help or make things worse? Because of the gem Adolin already has a weak "bond" to the Blade - does he somehow need to strengthen that into a Nahel bond? It takes a week to form that weak gem based bond, so I think it would take longer to strengthen that bond enough to revive the spren. I'm pretty sure Stormlight would be needed at some point near the end of the process to heal the spren (Would it help that Edgedancers get Regrowth? Maybe). I would expect that as Adolin gets closer to succeeding he would start to hear his Blade screaming and he would have to ignore/embrace that and press on. So in what kind of situation is all this going to happen? I think any gesture meant to treat the Blade as a living being must help. Summoning her in any possible situation simply as a stress relieve must be helping because it allows the Blade to get to know him better. Any actions with the Blade not involving killing must also help. Part of the secret recipe must be helping the Blade remembering the physical world. I think he needs to lose the gem which is why I am such in favor for the Adolin will lose his shards theory. I am unsure if his dead spren Blade would scream at him. I have envisioned another scenario where a Radiant (Renarin, Shallan or Kaladin) accidentally touches Adolin's Blade at the same time as him and.... nothing. No scream. Nothing. This would be the first sign something is going on with the Blade. Or it could be as you say. He hears it scream, but move past it. My "image" of such a situation is of Adolin being stuck in a room (basically imprisoned) for weeks on end, where he feels that every he cares about has turned their back on him. He feels increasingly alone and isolated. Yet he still has his Shardblade, the only "friend" he has left. Why does he not escape? Because he promised he would not and does not want to lose what little remains of his honour. I see his mental state deteriorating to the point that we worry about his sanity. I see him shunning the outside world and getting obsessed with his sword. Is this remotely typical of Adolin? No. But I see this happening as part of him breaking. Maybe there's ways to achieve the same thing that seem rather more in keeping with his personality but I think Adolin deteriorating and showing atypical behaviour would be good "proof" of his breaking. Just to be clear, I'm expecting this to be a short term change and he will revert to something close to his original self once things are settled. My "image" is not so different then yours. It does not have the "imprisonment factor" but it does have him feel isolated, alone, abandoned. I agree his mental state will deteriorate, but being an ESFJ, it will pass through his emotions which he won't be able to contain. He'll get completely unhinged and I see him going more and more anxious, stressed out to the point he may start to manifest symptoms of such ailments such as insomnia, food disorders, heart pains and such. I see him going through a typical modern day burn-out. He'll work hard, extra hard to compensate for his deteriorating mental state, but in the end, his body won't follow. It is not incompatible with your suggestion he would shut down to the world and remain close to only his Blade. I think burn-out would be typical of Adolin. He is a hard worker. He has never pushed himself to his limits: he does not know what they are. My guess is he'll find out. My guess is the whole Kohlin household will find out just be how much Adolin can be stretched. The concept I'm sketching above is more like "Adolin breaks and revives the spren in his sword while at it" rather than them being two separate events. This feels necessary to me because I think Adolin would probably have to strongly focus on his sword for an extended period - he's not the type of person to take an academic approach and solve the "puzzle" a piece at a time in his spare time. Also, given that his sword has been in an "agony cycle" for 1500 years or so I think it could help if Adolin goes through something similar as part of the process. It could be the opposite though and he needs to be in a healthy state of mind to have a chance of reviving the spren. For the above, I've tried to focus just on Adolin rather than the "big picture". We can return to that later... I also agree Adolin would not purposely revive his Blade. The envisoners have shown us you cannot draw out a Nahel bond on intent. Nahel bond happens because the spren chose you, not the other way around, though Adolin may be the exception as I think both he and his Blade will have to chose each other. I am seeing Adolin needs to break down enough for the spren to fit within the crack. A small cracking may not be enough. I also think he may need to show his commitment be being willing to sacrifice everything for his Blade, which is why I keep envisioning him going onto a crusade to regain her back. I have so many options for Adolin, his Blade, Sadeas, breaking down, Dalinar... :ph34r: Those I state only are the most probable, in my opinion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted March 21, 2015 Report Share Posted March 21, 2015 As a result, F-type people can easily get emotionally overwhelmed as they need to treat each and every emotional response before being able to move on. Worst, as long as they do not process their feelings and sort through them, they have issues rationalizing the problem at end. Emotions thus pill up until comes a time where the most insignificant event is enough to make them overflow. At the end of WoR we see him go exploring to give himself time to think through things. Are you suggesting that that was a particularly bad time for Sadeas to intrude because Adolin's emotions were already frayed? It does seem likely. They probably won't think much else of it, until Adolin ends up so filled up he reaches a point where he has to get it out. Then, he'll talk. My guess is it won't take him long to get there either. However, speaking up will most likely create a new wage of emotions and he'll go straight back into emotional overflow mode. Guilt, fear, anger, love, sadness, hurt, rejection, pride, worth or loss of worth will mix together until they make a huge ball on unidentified emotions and he won't even know where to start to filter them out. My guess is it will escalate up until it becomes too much for him to keep on coping and then, he'll break or crack or something. Hmm, so kinda like saying that he "heats up" (as it were) the more stressed he becomes? Perhaps a common trait for E-types? The I-types we've discussed generally seem to become "colder" under heavy stress. As for people accusing him, accusing a highborn ligheye of such a basic murder is a huge deal. I doubt anyone would accuse him without solid proof. I doubt he hid his traces all that well, but I an unsure of he left sufficient clues to have the murder linked to him. There malicious whispering against Dalinar... We do not know much about Renarin that is true. However, his order implies some quest to uncovered truths and Adolin may very well just be one of Renarin's first action as a Truthwatcher. He does seem to have poor control, but he also was in severe denial as to what was happening to him. He did not acknowledge himself a Radiant until the end and only reluctantly. I figured now he has, at the very least, made the step towards accepting himself, he may learn better control. It is true he may get an unwanted vision giving him definite clues as to his brother's involvement in the murder. Or he'll piece it out together as nobody reads Adolin better then him. The more unhinged his brother will be, the more Renarin will dig to figure out what is bothering him so much. We already established Adolin cannot hide how he feels. Impossible nobody will notice he is not feeling right, but my thoughts have always been most people won't discover why until Adolin speaks up. Hmm. So you're basically expecting a fair bit of suspense (eg over many days maybe even weeks) between Sadeas being declared dead and Adolin owning up to anyone (even privately) or being officially accused? I have been expecting more like a few days at most... but I guess it depends what kind of pacing the whole thing will take. I agree that Renarin would not ignore Adolin acting strange. You think Dalinar would order such a thing? You think Dalinar would be mad enough to unofficially banish Adolin from the family and try to force Renarin to follow his guidance? This would be the harshest course of actions Dalinar could potentially follow. I was thinking of it more from the theoretical point of view. I'd be surprised if he did that unless he also disowned Adolin. He might warn Renarin in other scenarios though. My thoughts on this possible scenario is Renarin would side with Adolin. The brothers are very close and I think we will soon find out how much. One of my speculative guess (unsupported by any clues nor WoB much like your perfect twin Shallan's theory) is the brothers swore they would take care of each other when their mother died. They were left alone with a waring father who most likely spend months at a time away from the household. They were kids. All they had was each other, so they grew even closer and decided to stick together no matter what. So far, Adolin has been the one most actively protecting his younger brother, an easy to endorse role for him, being the eldest and the strongest (by Alethi standards), but I figured Renarin would do just the same, providing he could figure out how. So on the day Adolin collapses, Renarin is the one to pick him up, because it is what brothers do, isn't it? This is all speculative of course. Only one of the thousand ways I could see the story unfold. We've been discussing ways of "break" Adolin so I have been thinking of isolating him for an extended period. If Renarin if immediately supportive would Adolin really break? Or are you imaging Adolin breaking in the period between the murder and him admitting to it and then after he does that then we see Renarin step in to help him recover? Renarin did enter the 4-on-1 duel to help Adolin... and generally comes across as trying to be helpful and supportive. Regarding Dalinar being away for war ,I believe the unification war lasted 6 years or so. Since it would have all been within Alethkar's borders he would not have been that far away. Since it was a matter of conquering each opposing princedom there would likely have been big gaps of inaction between battles. But who knows - Dalinar and Galivar did spend many months wandering around the unclaimed hills just for a hunt. I don't remember seeing any actual hints either way though about Adolin and Renarin being sort of "home alone". So yeah, speculative for sure but also quite plausible. In WoR, at the kings counsel, following the attack of the Assassin in White, Adolin comes very close to punch Sadeas but is fortunately stopped by Amaram. Amaram then tries to sooth him using arguments Adolin found very reminiscent of his father and thinks to himself that if Amaram starts quoting the Way of Kings, he'll scream his head out. In other words, Adolin understands what is father is trying to achieve and comprehends the tenets of the Way of Kings but I do not think he agrees with all of it. In fact, his father strict obedience to it, without any leeway, is hard for him to endorse. So when Dalinar brings forward the Way of Kings to further accuse Adolin of crime against the nation for murdering Sadeas, I can see Adolin shouting back and trusting the book into the fire in a fit of rage Ah, excellent. There's other ways to interpret that scene but I won't suggest them I can see Adolin's frustration and emotional mumbo-jumbo push him into saying things outside his thoughts. I can also see Dalinar, afterwards, asking quietly Navani where it is he has failed as a father with his son... How could his Adolin, his over-eager boy always willing to help, ever come down to this? Not only Adolin will hurt in the process: Dalinar will questioned himself. Agreed, Dalinar will definitely question himself. Hopefully he will do so in the right way. I really wonder what path Dalinar is going to go down. If he has to become super honourable I don't think I'd like it since it would mean he would be very inflexible. Cowering may have been a bad choice of word. I meant more submissive. Resigned. Ashamed. He won't be able to fully accept his acts are worst than everything Sadeas has done, but he will be crushed at seeing his family being harmed for it. He will be destroyed to see his father credibility broken because of him. This is what will harm him the most: not breaking the law to kill Sadeas, but seeing the disappointment in his life-long hero's eyes and the thought he may have destroyed Dalinar's work in one single action. Because of all this, he'll accept punishment, worst he may even go as far as to seek it himself in order to absolve his own guilt over breaking Dalinar's trust. You say "He won't be able to fully accept his acts are worst than everything Sadeas has done" - I would say/hope that he never accepts such a thing. It might be part of what breaks him though. Or alternatively, are you thinking something more like "his situation forces him to pretend to accept it but he never does in his own mind"? I have thought what would break Adolin is losing all holds dear by his own hands. He feared so much for those he loved he snapped at a mass murderer taunting him one time too much and killed him in an angry gesture. As a result, he'll lose their support, their love (in his head, not for real, he'll be recall they love him at some point) and will realize by trying to protect them he has, in fact, undermine their credibility. He'll become the nasty stain house Kohlin will have to drag forward up until Adolin finds way to absolve his name, providing such way exist. I'm quite curious as what the reaction will be from a cultural point of view. Sadeas was not condemned by his peers for his actions against Dalinar at the end of tWoK after all. Adolin's actions would definitely undermine Dalinar's new arguments but by normal/current Alethi standards, what Adolin would be just fine so long as he doesn't get "caught" and the biggest mistake he could possibly make is admitting to his actions. More on this in a bit... As for the soldiers, I have often written how I thought the darkeyes would support Adolin. I can see the Kohlin army offering their open support to their young general. After winning the 4 on 1 duel, after sitting out in prison for a darkeye and especially after giving out shards to one, I would not be surprised to hear Adolin Kohlin is one of the most appreciated lighteye (and most spoken name) in the darkeyed community. The soldiers and more importantly the bridgemen will be glad Sadeas is dead. The fact Adolin killed him may very well propel him to the rank of hero amongst the commoners as finally they have found one: one honorable lighteyed willing to do what it takes for his people. I would not be surprised to find out the men are moving their support from Dalinar to Adolin if the first proves too harsh on the son. I've posted before that I think that it's possible that Dalinar could find himself being one of the few people in his entire house who doesn't applaud Adolin's actions. Worst case scenario is the people of house Kholin rebel against Dalinar! (highly unlikely, but...) I disagree about the first sentence. We can argue there is strength in stepping out of the law to remove a greater threat. Their is risk to oneself in choosing to walk down this path. So was Adolin strong to kill Sadeas or weak for not being able to control his emotions? I guess arguments can be made both ways, but we have to agree the killing is a defining moment. It is the instant where Adolin steps out of Dalinar's guidance and takes a stand for what he truly believes, deep deep down. I guess with the big gap between posts (almost one month!) some context was lost That first sentence was aimed at Dalinar in the theoretical scenario where he covers up Adolin's actions. But... Since this is a good opportunity, let's go into my thoughts on Adolin's actions: It was not pre-planned but Adolin was sort-of mentally prepared since he had thought about it a fair bit (though not examined the implications really). It was certainly a spur-of-the-moment thing. It was very emotionally driven - he could not endure Sadeas's existence and threats any longer and snapped. Did Sadeas deserve to die? Yes. I don't like capital punishment at all but within the confines of the story it was likely the best available option at that point in time. Sadeas is basically doing Odium's work and is the local face of evil. I've actually done jury service on a murder trial. Seeing the scene from Adolin's point of view I would either vote not guilty or choose a weak option if there was one. But, we wouldn't get that option as jurists in this case so would have to factor in his actions before and after. To my mind, by far the biggest mistake Adolin could make would be to pretend to be innocent - I would be far more likely to be sympathetic if he clearly and quickly admits to it voluntarily. Why? Acting innocent undermines any moral argument you might make because it means you are willing to let someone else be a scapegoat, that you do not willing to take responsibility for your actions, that you don't believe in your own arguments and don't trust your peers. It's really hard to come out and do that though so I would not automatically condemn Adolin if he tries to act innocent for an extended period - it would depend on the situation and his reasoning. Ironically, if Adolin does act innocent he would be going along with the side of Alethi society that I suspect he hates the most. If he does admit to his actions then most of his peers would consider him to be an idiot while I would applaud him and I suspect that Dalinar would be more likely to respect him and listen to his arguments. On a side note, I've written before about how I like the idea of Shallan's final Truth being to admit her past to people she cares about - it would be interesting if Adolin could (unintentionally but leading by example) encourage Shallan to do this. Back in tWoK, Jasnah gets Shallan to examine morality and her actions against the robbers. All the philosophical frameworks she considered would favour Adolin, so far as we saw (depending on how they define intent and unplanned actions). Legally, Adolin is in deep trouble since Highprinces seem to automatically get extra rights and protections in a similar way to kings. Personally, I'm not too bothered by the legal side of things - can make up all sorts of interesting situations but the legal side hasn't been defined at all yet so can be twisted however you like. Regarding Adolin's actions vs "life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination", as always there's a lot of room for interpretation in these words. Killing Sadeas sounds bad but the guy is responsible for the deaths of 10s of thousands of people and is very clearly threatening to do more of the same. The Ideal is not "do not kill ever" either. For "strength before weakness", is what Adolin did a case of someone making a personal sacrifice to do what's right no matter the personal consequences? That's the more noble interpretation though it could easily be undermined by his actions afterwards. As you say the opposite interpretation is someone weak who is controlled by their emotions. Journey before destination is a always tricky one - what's the destination here? It doesn't have to mean Adolin's life in general. If we consider Adolin's "destination" (end-goal) to be neutralising Sadeas and everything he's tried before to be the "journey" then he's okay - he tried pretty much everything reasonable first. I think Dalinar's first reaction will be to go hard on Adolin, to make an example out of him, but things will run out of control. At some point, Dalinar will realize he can't sacrifice the boy he loves so much for the sake of Sadeas of all people and he'll revise his position. I envision some awakening moment on Dalinar's side, most likely tied to another oath. How? Various options, but I think it is possible Adolin will end up in a predicament worst then the 4 on 1 duel which would put Dalinar back into Ultimate Daddy Bear mode. While Dalinar going Ultimate Daddy Bear would be cool it could also undermine his character - "might makes right" is what he wants to avoid. I wonder what kind of arguments Dalinar would respond to best? My personal preference would be something along the lines of: Sadeas does not have the inherent right to special protections and the 10s of thousands of slaves he deliberately killed had as much right to live as anyone else - by failing to stand up to him you are encouraging others to do the same. I am also half of the opinion Adolin will be slightly traumatized to learn his Blade is a dead spren. He'll most likely angst he is hurting it, so I am unsure he would specifically ask help to uncover the name of his Blade... In my favored scenario, after he re-kinked his bond with his Blade, it starts behaving abnormally. He is able to summon it, to dismiss it, but without the jewel at the pommel (it broke when he called it back). However, it demands him a very high level of concentration he has a hard time achieving. He only seems to manage in the worst possible times, but in one of the battles, he hears it, a soft whisper and by the end of the book, he is referring to his strangely behaving Blade by a new name. Nice idea and I like those more subtle moments... just one problem - I hope the "will he won't he manage to revive the spren in his Blade" doesn't drag out over multiple books! Do we know if the dead Blade are truly blind when summoned? They get glimpses of the world and Brandon did say they were not completely static... So what if the spren can see Adolin when he summons it to speak to it? Perhaps it has some conscience, perhaps it is aware when it changes holder, perhaps it was impressed to see a teenager (Sadeas's reaction to Adolin being a full shardbearer makes me think he has earned his at an abnormally young age) win her in an unmatched duel 6 years ago, perhaps it thought he was dancing well on the field, perhaps it is able to catch an idea of who is holding her bond.... Well, it has too for Adolin to revive it. We have no real idea what the "dead" spren are experiencing. Brandon has described it as an "agony cycle" and personally I suspect they're not really able to feel anything right now - sort of like being in a coma except you can feel pain. I might be entirely wrong. I do not dismiss your theory stormlight is required to revive the dead Blade, but you have in point in saying, it could have been possible before. Which leads back to my theory... what do they have now they haven't seen since the Recreance? Radiants. Radiants can hear the dead spren. They have to be the missing key. That's what I was saying (I think) - that it wouldn't be possible for a human to revive a dead spren without being able to access Stormlight which requires the return of the spren that can bond with humans. I don't know if it's possible to "use" Stormlight to heal someone else when some is given to you if don't have a spren bond. I am unsure about your theory he needs to attract a living spren such as to give him stormlight access...... Would he then have two sprens fighting for him? Which order would this living spren be from? Same order? Another one? You can be fitted for two orders....... So if they are from the same order, which spren is he bonding? It's definitely possible to attract multiple spren but yeah I guess it would become messy. I was thinking that he would need the ability to manipulate Stormlight himself to heal the dead spren and that would require (at least) a weak bond to a living spren. Just too confusing I guess. All these questions lead me to believe he will not get a living spren bond prior to revive his Blade. As for his skill in dueling, I do not think it is supernatural. Adolin started training at the age of 6. From Dalinar's admission, he has worked very hard to reach the level he currently is at. He also had a very good swords master though I strongly suspect he was not Adolin's first and only teacher. I have an idea Adolin, following his mother's death, grew up arrogant and know-it-all when it came to sword fighting and decided he had nothing left to learn. As a result, all the Ardents refused to teach him anymore until Zahel showed up and wondered why the talented kid was left to practice his own. He then tamed the tiger cub and managed to make him understand he needed a teacher, probably by pointing him all the bad habits he had develop due to him starting up so young. That's an idea I had in my mind on how, why and when Zahel became Adolin's teacher, somewhere when Adolin was 13 years old. Adolin was able to draw against the current arena champion plus another skilled fighter at the same time. That's really good. That's suspiciously good. Particularly when you consider the hints that Dalinar has been using Stormlight in small ways for a long time (eg partially healing his war wounds) and as soon as Sadeas saw Adolin's true skill he started freaking out since it reminded him of Dalinar's awesome strength as the Blackthorn. Hmm, here's a slightly crazy idea with no real evidence: what if it's possible that Adolin and Dalinar's dead Blades already partially awoke for some reason years ago, enough to give them very limited access to Stormlight? Could easily be something else since Kaladin seems suspiciously good from an early age (before Syl should have shown up), so maybe some people are naturally better at absorbing Stormlight, and that gives them an edge? I think any gesture meant to treat the Blade as a living being must help. Summoning her in any possible situation simply as a stress relieve must be helping because it allows the Blade to get to know him better. Any actions with the Blade not involving killing must also help. Part of the secret recipe must be helping the Blade remembering the physical world. I think he needs to lose the gem which is why I am such in favor for the Adolin will lose his shards theory. Yeah, I suspect the gem will help in the early stages but become a hindrance towards the end. My previous suggestion related to this is that Adolin almost succeeds in reviving the spren but seems to have hit a wall - and it's at that moment he's forced to give up the Blade and the gem is broken. It looks like he's lost his chance just when he was about to succeed (drama! sorrow!) but in fact it was just what he needed to do and with the gem based bond broken the Nahel bond can fully form. My "image" is not so different then yours. It does not have the "imprisonment factor" but it does have him feel isolated, alone, abandoned. I agree his mental state will deteriorate, but being an ESFJ, it will pass through his emotions which he won't be able to contain. He'll get completely unhinged and I see him going more and more anxious, stressed out to the point he may start to manifest symptoms of such ailments such as insomnia, food disorders, heart pains and such. I see him going through a typical modern day burn-out. He'll work hard, extra hard to compensate for his deteriorating mental state, but in the end, his body won't follow. It is not incompatible with your suggestion he would shut down to the world and remain close to only his Blade. I think burn-out would be typical of Adolin. He is a hard worker. He has never pushed himself to his limits: he does not know what they are. My guess is he'll find out. My guess is the whole Kohlin household will find out just be how much Adolin can be stretched. Hmm, that's quite an interesting "image". I thought the section in WoR where Kaladin is imprisoned worked quite well in showing Kaladin's deteriorating mental state. Adolin was there too but by choice - it would be interesting to see him deal with being forced to be in that situation, like Kaladin. I guess maybe the biggest difference between us is that I'm imaging a relatively simple and focused arc for Adolin reviving his Blade and you're imaging a more detailed, long-term multi-stage process I also agree Adolin would not purposely revive his Blade. The envisoners have shown us you cannot draw out a Nahel bond on intent. Nahel bond happens because the spren chose you, not the other way around, though Adolin may be the exception as I think both he and his Blade will have to chose each other. I am seeing Adolin needs to break down enough for the spren to fit within the crack. A small cracking may not be enough. I also think he may need to show his commitment be being willing to sacrifice everything for his Blade, which is why I keep envisioning him going onto a crusade to regain her back. I agree that spren need to choose you, normally. I'm not so sure about Adolin going on a crusade to regain his Blade though. Bit hard to explain but it feels "forced". We could flip it around though and have him go on a quest to atone for his sins so that he can keep his Blade (though that could seem forced too, depending on the setup). I have so many options for Adolin, his Blade, Sadeas, breaking down, Dalinar... :ph34r: Those I state only are the most probable, in my opinion. We don't even know what the next book is going to focus on either and basically can't really predict the context around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted March 22, 2015 Report Share Posted March 22, 2015 At the end of WoR we see him go exploring to give himself time to think through things. Are you suggesting that that was a particularly bad time for Sadeas to intrude because Adolin's emotions were already frayed? It does seem likely. Yes. It is exactly what I am saying. Adolin was overwhelmed, from his own admission. Already, he was not coping well with the knowledge the dreaded Radiants had come back to Roshar and more importantly with the fact the woman he loved was one of them. He also tried very hard not to show how it all affected him, keeping on his confident facade, but maintaining it forced him to wander of alone more and more often. He also jumped head first into the task of exploring the tower. In other words, before knifing Sadeas, Adolin was already in the process of isolating himself. We therefore have an inkling on how Adolin deals with difficult issues: he withdraws, keeps to himself, works harder all the while trying not to worry anyone by pretending all is fine. Hmm, so kinda like saying that he "heats up" (as it were) the more stressed he becomes? Perhaps a common trait for E-types? The I-types we've discussed generally seem to become "colder" under heavy stress. He seemed the stressful type... summoning his Blade back and forth each time he is nervous... Being discomfited enough to fail at commanding his Blade... E-types do tend to explode rapidly. For my part, when I am pissed or stressed, everyone in the entire office know about it and walk around me with a 10 foot pole There malicious whispering against Dalinar... To the point of accusing his son of homicide? I doubt they would dare go as far, not without solid proofs. Hmm. So you're basically expecting a fair bit of suspense (eg over many days maybe even weeks) between Sadeas being declared dead and Adolin owning up to anyone (even privately) or being officially accused? I have been expecting more like a few days at most... but I guess it depends what kind of pacing the whole thing will take. I am expecting something in between a few days and a few weeks... I think we are going to see Adolin trying to cope on his own before he mans up as you say, but I could be totally wrong about this. It may be very quick or rather slow. Honestly, I do not have a feeling on the timeline here. I agree that Renarin would not ignore Adolin acting strange. Unless Renarin thinks he is to blame for Adolin acting strange. Unless Renarin thinks Adolin is acting strange because he disapproves of Renarin's dreaded powers or because he is turning jealous... Renarin may not be in the right mind frame right now to effectively deal with his wayward brother. I was thinking of it more from the theoretical point of view. I'd be surprised if he did that unless he also disowned Adolin. He might warn Renarin in other scenarios though. I think Dalinar disowning Adolin is a possibility. He may be rash enough to do it in a spite of anger. True enough. There could be other scenarios where he asks Renarin to steer away from his brother... though I do not think Renarin would take it very well.... if anything the brothers seems rather supportive for one another. However, in some of my scenarios, Renarin does stay away from Adolin because being non-confident Renarin he ends up believing his brother's behavior is caused by him... as opposed to something deeper. We've been discussing ways of "break" Adolin so I have been thinking of isolating him for an extended period. If Renarin if immediately supportive would Adolin really break? Or are you imaging Adolin breaking in the period between the murder and him admitting to it and then after he does that then we see Renarin step in to help him recover? Renarin did enter the 4-on-1 duel to help Adolin... and generally comes across as trying to be helpful and supportive. Hmmm.... I guess I imagine Renarin would not be immediately supportive because he won't immediately figure out how messed up his brother has gotten. Adolin, on his side, will think his entire family has abandoned him and with reasons as he destroyed his father's great work. I expect Adolin to break after having admitting the murder... I expect he'll push himself to the limits up until he can't cope. Dalinar's refusal to forgive him will weight heavily in his overall attitude. I would like to see Renarin being there to pick up the pieces after whatever event pushed Adolin over the edge. I guess I just love the idea of the younger over-sheltered sibling finally stepping in to care for his older brother who has always been there for him. I would like to see their role reversed, for a time. I can also see it happening, depending on how Brandon writes it, though he may do the opposite. Some people think Renarin will sink lower then ground zero due to his powers. He would thus not be able to be there for Adolin, so would Adolin have to pick himself up and pick his brother up? Seems like a hard command. I like the first scenario better. Renarin comes across as helping and supportive, but we have no idea what he truly thinks. Regarding Dalinar being away for war ,I believe the unification war lasted 6 years or so. Since it would have all been within Alethkar's borders he would not have been that far away. Since it was a matter of conquering each opposing princedom there would likely have been big gaps of inaction between battles. But who knows - Dalinar and Galivar did spend many months wandering around the unclaimed hills just for a hunt. I don't remember seeing any actual hints either way though about Adolin and Renarin being sort of "home alone". So yeah, speculative for sure but also quite plausible. Dalinar fought many battles during the boys childhood... According to the timeline, the war started shortly after Renarin's birth, so Adolin must have been around 3-4 years of age, a very impressionable age (I have two of those at home ). As you stated, he went on hunts lasting for months. He also visited the Nightwatcher and must have been away for months again... I doubt he dragged his young sons with him during these trips. My impressions were Dalinar has always been this formidable dad coming back home every now and then with a massive load of new stories of war, battles and glorious hunts he told to his wide eyed impressionable boy who gulped on his every words thinking them the absolute truth. His youngest boy most likely saw the truth behind the stories (ever the Truthwatcher ), but never stated so. They would not have been "home alone", they were princes. They must have had hordes of tutors and perhaps they stayed with their aunt. For WoK, we gather Adolin does not seem to know much about his dad and his whereabouts... Ah, excellent. There's other ways to interpret that scene but I won't suggest them Oh please do Agreed, Dalinar will definitely question himself. Hopefully he will do so in the right way. I really wonder what path Dalinar is going to go down. If he has to become super honourable I don't think I'd like it since it would mean he would be very inflexible. In the past, each time Dalinar needed to learn a lesson, he did it the hard way. He comes across as a rather inflexible person who needs to be shown his wrongs as opposed to being told. So having someone like Shallan strongly defend Adolin and bring forward strong arguments most likely won't be enough for Dalinar to come across. It is Adolin we are speaking of, his weakest link. I don't know what will need to happen for Dalinar to find it in him to forgive Adolin. My thoughts also go towards something very drastic such as thinking his son died... Perhaps one of the future battles go horribly wrong and retreat is sounded. Adolin stays behind and takes unfathomable risks to ensure the success of whatever is was they tried to accomplish through this particular fight. He ends up cut down from the main army corps and is thought lost. Imagine the scene where General Kahl is forced to tell Dalinar his son has died (as they would think he has fallen)..................... As for being honorable, I see no honor is abandoning one's child simply because he did something understandable, morally justifiable, but legally wrong. You say "He won't be able to fully accept his acts are worst than everything Sadeas has done" - I would say/hope that he never accepts such a thing. It might be part of what breaks him though. Or alternatively, are you thinking something more like "his situation forces him to pretend to accept it but he never does in his own mind"? I think Adolin will never be sorry Sadeas is dead or that he had to kill him, but he will be sorry he hurt Dalinar in the process. The most plausible outcome is Adolin accepting punishment, but refusing to apologize for killing Sadeas. I see him apologizing for crippling the family though. This, I see. I'm quite curious as what the reaction will be from a cultural point of view. Sadeas was not condemned by his peers for his actions against Dalinar at the end of tWoK after all. Adolin's actions would definitely undermine Dalinar's new arguments but by normal/current Alethi standards, what Adolin would be just fine so long as he doesn't get "caught" and the biggest mistake he could possibly make is admitting to his actions. More on this in a bit... Ah. Then you need to read the interview done at Chigago. Someone asked Brandon a question about Adolin. Brandon answered Adolin's actions did not violate some of the morality on Roshar. Earlier on, he also stated there was legitimate moral ground justifying his actions. I think it is quite possible many Highprinces would be fine with it, as long as the boy does not do the mistake of publicly admitting his guilt. If he does, then he has to be trialed. After all, Sadeas and Dalinar had Yenev killed and nobody think less of them........ I've posted before that I think that it's possible that Dalinar could find himself being one of the few people in his entire house who doesn't applaud Adolin's actions. Worst case scenario is the people of house Kholin rebel against Dalinar! (highly unlikely, but...) It's Adolin. His son and heir. The pride of his eyes, but also the one son he goes the hardest on. The one son who is not allowed mistakes. Elhokar and Renarin can fault to no ends, he will not bear a grudge and forgive them anything, but Adolin? Adolin, he has been grooming for years to become the man he wished he had been from the start. This will hurt. He may see it as a betrayal. I have thought of some scenarios where some of the Kohlin household most prominent members threaten to move their fealty from Dalinar to Adolin..... I have even thought of scenarios where some of the bridge crews (not Bridge 4, the other ones) ask to be put under the charge of Prince Adolin as opposed to Dalinar simply because they wish to serve the man who killed Sadeas............. Not the most plausible outcome, but I can see it happening. ... I think we should not look too deeply on how our modern world would react to Adolin's actions... Our own world does not view murdering the same way Alethkar does. Based on what we have seen, I think it more likely Atethi would think less of him of he guiltily admits his crimes as opposed to him manning up, take hold of his actions without apologizing and without telling the exact truth... They did not qualm over Sadeas abandoning Dalinar. They knew he did it, he dropped a few hints here and there, but all thought him strong for daring such a bold move. As long as he did not admit any fault, he was safe. The same could be true about Adolin, but the boy will talk. He is no Sadeas. Dalinar may be the only one to ultimately, after much and much pondering, react positively to Adolin's confession. Ironically, if Adolin does act innocent he would be going along with the side of Alethi society that I suspect he hates the most. If he does admit to his actions then most of his peers would consider him to be an idiot while I would applaud him and I suspect that Dalinar would be more likely to respect him and listen to his arguments. On a side note, I've written before about how I like the idea of Shallan's final Truth being to admit her past to people she cares about - it would be interesting if Adolin could (unintentionally but leading by example) encourage Shallan to do this. That's an interesting thought. Shallan has managed to positively impressed Kaladin by making him realized it was not because someone's life appeared perfect on the surface they did not suffer on the inside. She also served as an eye opener towards his tendency to misjudged every single lighteyed. She even managed to make him admit he actually liked Adolin, but he has been conditioning himself so hard to hate all lighteyes, he could not find the will to let go. It would indeed be interesting if Adolin's genuine and incapable of any lies personality managed to impress Shallan in the same manner. Another twist I would love is having Adolin finding out, on his own, (invent any means you see fit) about Shallan's debatable past only to come out and state if she killed her parents, then must have had good reasons. Regarding Adolin's actions vs "life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination", as always there's a lot of room for interpretation in these words. Killing Sadeas sounds bad but the guy is responsible for the deaths of 10s of thousands of people and is very clearly threatening to do more of the same. The Ideal is not "do not kill ever" either. For "strength before weakness", is what Adolin did a case of someone making a personal sacrifice to do what's right no matter the personal consequences? That's the more noble interpretation though it could easily be undermined by his actions afterwards. As you say the opposite interpretation is someone weak who is controlled by their emotions. Journey before destination is a always tricky one - what's the destination here? It doesn't have to mean Adolin's life in general. If we consider Adolin's "destination" (end-goal) to be neutralising Sadeas and everything he's tried before to be the "journey" then he's okay - he tried pretty much everything reasonable first. Agree. It could go both ways, but it will depend on how he deals with it. I have had many thoughts for which "journey" Adolin may be on... I think progressively getting rid of the Thrill was part of the journey. Killing Sadeas may have been another step: he had tried every other ways to deal with him........ While Dalinar going Ultimate Daddy Bear would be cool it could also undermine his character - "might makes right" is what he wants to avoid. But he would not stand still and watch his son sink simply because the Way of Kings calls Adolin out for killing Sadeas?... He did so during the 4 on 1 duel, but Adolin had not been injured yet. Do you think Dalinar would have remained seated had one of the opponents managed to actually strike a hit on Adolin? How can it be right to sacrifice a boy he loves? And for what? For Honor? Honor would demand Adolin's death? Perhaps he'll think this is how he should act, but I refuse to believe Dalinar would sit still and watch his son collapse without raising one single finger.... I personally think that is things go too bad for Adolin, Tiger Daddy will step up to protect his Tiger Cub (now they are tigers, not bears ). I wonder what kind of arguments Dalinar would respond to best? My personal preference would be something along the lines of: Sadeas does not have the inherent right to special protections and the 10s of thousands of slaves he deliberately killed had as much right to live as anyone else - by failing to stand up to him you are encouraging others to do the same. I responded to that in one of my earlier reply. Dalinar seems to respond best to direct example, to more dire the circumstances, the more responsive he is to the argument :ph34r: Which is why I keep thinking Adolin will end up in a bad situation, hence my suggestion he may end up cut of from his army on the battle field while trying to accomplish something to get back into his fathers good graces... Perhaps he goes upfront and ends up cut of or perhaps he stays behind after the army retreats and gets cut just the same of or perhaps the soldiers actually see him fall, but he is too far away, nobody can get to him... Insert whatever plausible denouement you can think of (I am sure there are many). The idea if he is thought dead and the news if being delivered to Dalinar. There is no body, they could not recover his body, but everyone is convinced: he can't have survived. What does Dalinar do? On the day his soldiers bring him the news the son he was so angry at is assumed dead? Where does he go from there? As for direct argumentation, I see him coming around, eventually, but not before something dire happens.... Nice idea and I like those more subtle moments... just one problem - I hope the "will he won't he manage to revive the spren in his Blade" doesn't drag out over multiple books! Agree. It has to happen in the next book. Towards the very end, he succeed, but he still has a long way to go to become a Radiant. Let's say the book could end with him learning the name of his Blade or if it goes very fast, him saying the first oath, but not much more then that. The part where the Blade behaved abnormally would last for one part of next book... not two books, that would be dragging it uselessly. We have no real idea what the "dead" spren are experiencing. Brandon has described it as an "agony cycle" and personally I suspect they're not really able to feel anything right now - sort of like being in a coma except you can feel pain. I might be entirely wrong. He also said they retained some conscience... which is what made me think perhaps the dead-Blade is aware of who is owning her... and perhaps it responds favorably to it being Adolin. Perhaps the tiny part of her that is not stuck in the agony cycle actually likes her current owner and hopes for more...... Although, this is a lot of speculation on my part.... I admit to that. That's what I was saying (I think) - that it wouldn't be possible for a human to revive a dead spren without being able to access Stormlight which requires the return of the spren that can bond with humans. I don't know if it's possible to "use" Stormlight to heal someone else when some is given to you if don't have a spren bond. Are suggesting Renarin may give Adolin some of his stormlight via the surge of Progression to help his brother revive his Blade? It's definitely possible to attract multiple spren but yeah I guess it would become messy. I was thinking that he would need the ability to manipulate Stormlight himself to heal the dead spren and that would require (at least) a weak bond to a living spren. Just too confusing I guess. I understand your idea and it does make sense, but I am uncomfortable in knowing one of the two sprens would end up boundless, unless Adolin bonds them both.... but that would be a bit too much.... Adolin was able to draw against the current arena champion plus another skilled fighter at the same time. That's really good. That's suspiciously good. Particularly when you consider the hints that Dalinar has been using Stormlight in small ways for a long time (eg partially healing his war wounds) and as soon as Sadeas saw Adolin's true skill he started freaking out since it reminded him of Dalinar's awesome strength as the Blackthorn. I still do not think Adolin's skill is supernatural. He has been good for years... Do not forget he won himself a Blade at 16 years old! Sadeas never managed, in his whole life, to win a Blade..... and Sadeas is said to be a very skilled swordsman. Adolin was just a kid back then who took up an unfair duel thrown at him in an attempt to humiliate his father. Nobody thought he could potentially win.... and yet he did. It must have been an event. Duels for shards are rare, one every few years. Most shards are pass down as inheritance... A teenager wining one must not happened very often. However, Galivar was murdered shortly after and the war started, hence removing Adolin from the dueling ground... My thoughts are Adolin skill is a combination of natural talent, hard work and a very competent teacher. Hmm, here's a slightly crazy idea with no real evidence: what if it's possible that Adolin and Dalinar's dead Blades already partially awoke for some reason years ago, enough to give them very limited access to Stormlight? Could easily be something else since Kaladin seems suspiciously good from an early age (before Syl should have shown up), so maybe some people are naturally better at absorbing Stormlight, and that gives them an edge? For the longest time, I have thought Kaladin's skill was his special gift much like Shallan has her supernatural memory.... It was confirmed this is not the case. I am thus leaning towards Kaladin's skill being his own, same as Adolin. I honestly seriously doubt Adolin has drawn stormlight at this point... I also doubt Dalinar had half-awoken Oathbringer. He was found of the sword, but was glad to get rid of it. I suspect Adolin being forced to give up his Blade would be half-traumatized and not relieved at all. It is entirely impossible, but I would classify this idea within the improbable ones. Yeah, I suspect the gem will help in the early stages but become a hindrance towards the end. My previous suggestion related to this is that Adolin almost succeeds in reviving the spren but seems to have hit a wall - and it's at that moment he's forced to give up the Blade and the gem is broken. It looks like he's lost his chance just when he was about to succeed (drama! sorrow!) but in fact it was just what he needed to do and with the gem based bond broken the Nahel bond can fully form. I also think he needs to unbound the Blade and brake the gem. That one seems like a no brainer. The question then is, in which circumstances will he do so? Will he do it with intent in his mind or will he be forced to give her up? Hmm, that's quite an interesting "image". I thought the section in WoR where Kaladin is imprisoned worked quite well in showing Kaladin's deteriorating mental state. Adolin was there too but by choice - it would be interesting to see him deal with being forced to be in that situation, like Kaladin. I guess maybe the biggest difference between us is that I'm imaging a relatively simple and focused arc for Adolin reviving his Blade and you're imaging a more detailed, long-term multi-stage process I understand your idea, but it is too reminiscent of Kaladin.... Kaladin had an issue with being imprisoned... If Adolin ends up having the same, don't you think it would be too akin to Kaladin? I understand your idea though. It is true Adolin stayed in prison, by his own free will. He found it boring, but he could leave any time he wanted. I agree being forced to stay there would be an entire different deal for him, but I feel it would step too much within Kaladin's story arc which is why I am unsure if Brandon would use this potential story plot. Just saying. I do not presume to guess what Brandon would or would not do Perhaps, but Kaladin and Shallan's story arc were nothing but simple. Their paths to becoming Radiants were long, difficult and endearing. If Adolin were to join their ranks (as I think he will, eventually) then his story needs to be as traumatic, complicated and endearing as theirs. It is probably why I am imagining many complex scenarios. Reviving a dead Blade is no simple feat. I feel it cannot be convey appropriately within a too simplistic plot line. It needs to be the focus of one book. It is too much a big deal to happen in the shadows or within the back story. It has to be part of the main story arc and Adolin has to play a major role ino it. If not, then all the difficulties tied to succeeding in such an endeavor are lost to the readers or so I feel. Besides, Adolin is not getting a flashback book which means whatever happens to him will take place real time as opposed to in the past for Kaladin/Shallan/Dalinar/Renarin. They were all broken at some point, but it was years ago. Adolin's story arc happens during present time. His story arc thus have to convey the same fatality as others, if not then his character becomes useless. I fail to see why Brandon would develop him in WoR only to drop him in book 3.... I agree that spren need to choose you, normally. I'm not so sure about Adolin going on a crusade to regain his Blade though. Bit hard to explain but it feels "forced". We could flip it around though and have him go on a quest to atone for his sins so that he can keep his Blade (though that could seem forced too, depending on the setup). Oh... I like the idea of him becoming completely focused on getting HIS Blade back. Not any Blade, THAT particular Blade. I do not think it would be forced, he would just have the impulse to get HER back. He is a very intuitive person, so I figured he would act out of instinct, without being able to explain himself and everyone will think he has lost his mind.... but someone will figure it out... perhaps Shallan. Of all people, I think she would be the one to see Adolin's bond to his Blade is deeper than usual. We don't even know what the next book is going to focus on either and basically can't really predict the context around him. We can't. Not with any accuracy. However, Brandon loves foreshadowing. He has stated some of our theories were actually spot on. So I do expect a very small portion of my wild speculation to come true. Say what 5% In the mean time, I enjoy speculating. It takes my mind out of work and it allows me much better nights as it gives me something positive to dwell on 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 E-types do tend to explode rapidly. For my part, when I am pissed or stressed, everyone in the entire office know about it and walk around me with a 10 foot pole In my case, I mostly just get irritable. If things get bad enough then I might start swearing a bit - that's rare enough that people around me are quite shocked. If I can't calm down by the evening I try to watch some nice comedy TV program or the like otherwise I just can't sleep. To the point of accusing his son of homicide? I doubt they would dare go as far, not without solid proofs. They don't have to directly accuse Adolin of anything. By "malicious whispering" I mean stuff like "we all heard what Adolin said to Sadeas at the Pinnacle but of course he wouldn't do anything". I am expecting something in between a few days and a few weeks... I think we are going to see Adolin trying to cope on his own before he mans up as you say, but I could be totally wrong about this. It may be very quick or rather slow. Honestly, I do not have a feeling on the timeline here. I guess it depends whether his success (at reviving the spren) occurs by itself or whether it occurs just in time to save the day - given Urithiru's isolation any major attack would likely be internal (eg the Ghostbloods or Amaram doing something) and I am expecting something along those lines for the book to end on. I also expect by the end of the book that we'll see one more portal opened (probably by Kaladin or Jasnah from outside). I expect Adolin to break after having admitting the murder... I expect he'll push himself to the limits up until he can't cope. Dalinar's refusal to forgive him will weight heavily in his overall attitude. Yeah, I don't think Adolin would be too concerned with punishment etc but rather being forgiven by Dalinar. I would like to see Renarin being there to pick up the pieces after whatever event pushed Adolin over the edge. I guess I just love the idea of the younger over-sheltered sibling finally stepping in to care for his older brother who has always been there for him. I would like to see their role reversed, for a time. I can also see it happening, depending on how Brandon writes it, though he may do the opposite. Some people think Renarin will sink lower then ground zero due to his powers. He would thus not be able to be there for Adolin, so would Adolin have to pick himself up and pick his brother up? Seems like a hard command. I like the first scenario better. Role-reversal was one of the big themes of Warbreaker with sisters Vivi and Siri. Could we see something like that? It's certainly possible but for it to happen realistically I think it would probably require him to be permanently put in a fundamentally different situation to any he has experienced before - eg being banished in disgrace. I'm not sure if staying but in disgrace would be big enough, though it's marginal. I think it's more likely that we'll see him change and develop into a more complex character but still pretty similar. In short, maturing into his own person (which is pretty much what you've said elsewhere). Oh please do I didn't want to suggest others because your argument was too good... but since you insist: we find out later that Adolin doesn't trust Amaram, so it could be that Adolin felt nauseous at the thought of secretly-a-scumbag Amaram quoting from The Way of Kings (not how it reads at the time though) In the past, each time Dalinar needed to learn a lesson, he did it the hard way. He comes across as a rather inflexible person who needs to be shown his wrongs as opposed to being told. So having someone like Shallan strongly defend Adolin and bring forward strong arguments most likely won't be enough for Dalinar to come across. It is Adolin we are speaking of, his weakest link. I n a way, that's why I'm hoping to see some strong clashes between Shallan and Dalinar - precisely because it would be difficult. Dalinar does sometimes accept an argument and Shallan has been able to work with difficult and stubborn people. Maybe Shallan will be able to soften Dalinar up enough so that Adolin can convince him with something suitably epic? Ah. Then you need to read the interview done at Chigago. Someone asked Brandon a question about Adolin. Brandon answered Adolin's actions did not violate some of the morality on Roshar. Earlier on, he also stated there was legitimate moral ground justifying his actions. I think it is quite possible many Highprinces would be fine with it, as long as the boy does not do the mistake of publicly admitting his guilt. If he does, then he has to be trialed. After all, Sadeas and Dalinar had Yenev killed and nobody think less of them........ I had read that interview already and had thought I had covered it well enough by other comments. I have thought of some scenarios where some of the Kohlin household most prominent members threaten to move their fealty from Dalinar to Adolin..... I have even thought of scenarios where some of the bridge crews (not Bridge 4, the other ones) ask to be put under the charge of Prince Adolin as opposed to Dalinar simply because they wish to serve the man who killed Sadeas............. Not the most plausible outcome, but I can see it happening. I think we might see some limited verbal protests by groups in private. I have also amused myself with the idea of Shallan taking a poll amongst various groups to gauge their feelings... I think we should not look too deeply on how our modern world would react to Adolin's actions... Our own world does not view murdering the same way Alethkar does. Based on what we have seen, I think it more likely Atethi would think less of him of he guiltily admits his crimes as opposed to him manning up, take hold of his actions without apologizing and without telling the exact truth... They did not qualm over Sadeas abandoning Dalinar. They knew he did it, he dropped a few hints here and there, but all thought him strong for daring such a bold move. As long as he did not admit any fault, he was safe. The same could be true about Adolin, but the boy will talk. He is no Sadeas. Certainly the situation is different enough that our modern world morality would not apply well - I think it's interesting to see the differences and see the effects of those differences though. I agree with everything else you say above. Dalinar may be the only one to ultimately, after much and much pondering, react positively to Adolin's confession. I don't think he'd be the only one to react positively but I think it could well make the biggest difference with him. That's an interesting thought. Shallan has managed to positively impressed Kaladin by making him realized it was not because someone's life appeared perfect on the surface they did not suffer on the inside. She also served as an eye opener towards his tendency to misjudged every single lighteyed. She even managed to make him admit he actually liked Adolin, but he has been conditioning himself so hard to hate all lighteyes, he could not find the will to let go. It would indeed be interesting if Adolin's genuine and incapable of any lies personality managed to impress Shallan in the same manner. Another twist I would love is having Adolin finding out, on his own, (invent any means you see fit) about Shallan's debatable past only to come out and state if she killed her parents, then must have had good reasons. There's almost certainly some things Shallan can learn from Adolin (independently of their relationship) and the idea did give me a warm fuzzy feeling How would Adolin react to Shallan's past deeds? Hmm... like with how Shallan could react to Adolin killing Sadeas there's multiple possibilities depending on how the information is revealed - I think he would find it hard to conceive of killing his own parents in any situation so if all he finds out is that she did do such a thing (and nothing about the circumstances) then I would not expect him to react to readily accept it. I think it would be more likely for him to doubt that the Shallan he knows could do such a thing and to not believe the information. But this is not at all to suggest that Adolin couldn't understand or believe in her as the simplest way to explain her situation would be "imagine your father was Sadeas"... But he would not stand still and watch his son sink simply because the Way of Kings calls Adolin out for killing Sadeas?... I wonder if there's any passages about confronting evil... He did so during the 4 on 1 duel, but Adolin had not been injured yet. Do you think Dalinar would have remained seated had one of the opponents managed to actually strike a hit on Adolin? How can it be right to sacrifice a boy he loves? And for what? For Honor? Honor would demand Adolin's death? Perhaps he'll think this is how he should act, but I refuse to believe Dalinar would sit still and watch his son collapse without raising one single finger.... I personally think that is things go too bad for Adolin, Tiger Daddy will step up to protect his Tiger Cub (now they are tigers, not bears ). Dalinar is definitely protective of his family but he won't do anything to protect them else he would have killed Sadeas himself already. Dalinar wants to do the right thing but what does he do if what he thinks is "the right thing" is directly in conflict with his desire to protect his family (which would normally be considered "the right thing")? That may be Dalinar's essential conflict for the book. Random thought - maybe instead of reacting decisively to Adolin's actions he instead... becomes paralysed with indecision and maybe instead of other protagonists coming to Dalinar to argue with his decision it is instead he who goes to them to ask for help in deciding what to do. I responded to that in one of my earlier reply. Dalinar seems to respond best to direct example, to more dire the circumstances, the more responsive he is to the argument :ph34r: Which is why I keep thinking Adolin will end up in a bad situation, hence my suggestion he may end up cut of from his army on the battle field while trying to accomplish something to get back into his fathers good graces... Perhaps he goes upfront and ends up cut of or perhaps he stays behind after the army retreats and gets cut just the same of or perhaps the soldiers actually see him fall, but he is too far away, nobody can get to him... Insert whatever plausible denouement you can think of (I am sure there are many). The idea if he is thought dead and the news if being delivered to Dalinar. There is no body, they could not recover his body, but everyone is convinced: he can't have survived. What does Dalinar do? On the day his soldiers bring him the news the son he was so angry at is assumed dead? Where does he go from there? As for direct argumentation, I see him coming around, eventually, but not before something dire happens.... Sounds like how he reflected on his attitude/approach with Navani after nearly dying at end of tWoK. He also said they retained some conscience... which is what made me think perhaps the dead-Blade is aware of who is owning her... and perhaps it responds favorably to it being Adolin. Perhaps the tiny part of her that is not stuck in the agony cycle actually likes her current owner and hopes for more...... Although, this is a lot of speculation on my part.... I admit to that. I wonder how it compares with what happened to Pattern for last 6 years. I don't remember him referencing events between her mother's death and being re-summoned. Are suggesting Renarin may give Adolin some of his stormlight via the surge of Progression to help his brother revive his Blade? Any Surgebinder perhaps, though there well may be variants between Orders for how well this works. In WoR we see Shallan "push" some Stormlight into Pattern so he can allow her illusions to work remotely. Now, that might only be practical because Shallan and Pattern are bonded but it's an example of intentionally transferring Stormlight itself so it may be possible in other ways. I still do not think Adolin's skill is supernatural. He has been good for years... Do not forget he won himself a Blade at 16 years old! Sadeas never managed, in his whole life, to win a Blade..... and Sadeas is said to be a very skilled swordsman. Adolin was just a kid back then who took up an unfair duel thrown at him in an attempt to humiliate his father. Nobody thought he could potentially win.... and yet he did. It must have been an event. Duels for shards are rare, one every few years. Most shards are pass down as inheritance... A teenager wining one must not happened very often. However, Galivar was murdered shortly after and the war started, hence removing Adolin from the dueling ground... My thoughts are Adolin skill is a combination of natural talent, hard work and a very competent teacher. Definitely. But he's still "suspiciously" good - I suspect a (small) supernatural boost, somewhere, somehow. For the longest time, I have thought Kaladin's skill was his special gift much like Shallan has her supernatural memory.... It was confirmed this is not the case. I am thus leaning towards Kaladin's skill being his own, same as Adolin. I honestly seriously doubt Adolin has drawn stormlight at this point... I also doubt Dalinar had half-awoken Oathbringer. He was found of the sword, but was glad to get rid of it. I suspect Adolin being forced to give up his Blade would be half-traumatized and not relieved at all. It is entirely impossible, but I would classify this idea within the improbable ones. Consider this: much of life on Roshar has adapted to the environment, using Stormlight and spren. It's likely that the humans have adapted too, even if just by some small natural selection. We also know that the heavy amounts of Investure (Stormlight) on the world increases the general health of the population. It probably also makes them a bit stronger. Lighteyes are inherited genetic trait - they're probably the descendants of Radiants. It's possible some are more "attuned" to Stormlight than the general population and some better than other Lighteyes. Or something. I understand your idea, but it is too reminiscent of Kaladin.... Kaladin had an issue with being imprisoned... If Adolin ends up having the same, don't you think it would be too akin to Kaladin? I understand your idea though. It is true Adolin stayed in prison, by his own free will. He found it boring, but he could leave any time he wanted. I agree being forced to stay there would be an entire different deal for him, but I feel it would step too much within Kaladin's story arc which is why I am unsure if Brandon would use this potential story plot. Just saying. I do not presume to guess what Brandon would or would not do I think it could easily be different enough that it would not feel repetitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted April 3, 2015 Report Share Posted April 3, 2015 They don't have to directly accuse Adolin of anything. By "malicious whispering" I mean stuff like "we all heard what Adolin said to Sadeas at the Pinnacle but of course he wouldn't do anything". Is there anyone who witness Adolin's words at the Pinnacle apart from Teft and whoever else what on guard duty that night? I was under the impression they were rather isolated... I thus doubt anyone heard anything, though I could see the Teft potentially making the connection. He is a smart one, he heard Adolin. Could it be the person to uncover the truth behind the murder be one of Bridge 4? As for the whisperings... Nobody knew the Sadeas had arrived. They did not announce their venue. Very hard to organize an assassination when the victim's whereabouts are unknown to all. I think it will establish early on the murder is one of happenstance and since nobody was known to be around except for the Sadeas's own men, then I do think the blame will fall on them before anything else. I guess it depends whether his success (at reviving the spren) occurs by itself or whether it occurs just in time to save the day - given Urithiru's isolation any major attack would likely be internal (eg the Ghostbloods or Amaram doing something) and I am expecting something along those lines for the book to end on. I also expect by the end of the book that we'll see one more portal opened (probably by Kaladin or Jasnah from outside). I expect Kaladin and or Jasnah to open the Oathgate at Kohlinar and arrive in time for the final showdown. I am not sure if I expect Adolin to revive his Blade in the next book... I am honestly unsure what to expect... My latest thoughts have been Adolin's will start to have trouble controlling his Blade. The more he'll crack, the more the Blade will latch onto him, the more conscience it will get and the more difficulty it will have to manifest itself into the physical realm. I could thus see the Blade revival plot to start of with Adolin failing at sending commands to his Blade... He can't make it stay without touching it. Eventually, it vanishes from his own hands. He needs to concentrate super hard to summon it... Stuff like that. It gets more and more alive. Half of me expects him to save the day by saying the first oath, but I am unsure what it would do... Edgedancers do not get Blades right away and one oath may not be enough. It is hard to foresee how this process would work... I have also been investigating into the scene where Adolin fails to throw his Blade. We have been given the impression forcing the Blade to remain solid was a hard command. However, we have seen many characters do it without any apparent effort (Dalinar, Aladar and Elhokar come to mind). We have even seen Renarin of all people manage the same feat. In fact, the only character we have seen struggling with the command was Adolin. From what I have gathered, Brandon is not the kind of author to write a scene for no other purposes then fill-up pages. If he wrote it, then it has a purpose. What was it? Why show us Adolin having issues controlling his Blade if it is not to foreshadow us something more important? It could go in many directions, but I have started to believe Adolin failing at sending a command his half-traumatized brother managed while being distressed means something. What though, I am unsure. Yeah, I don't think Adolin would be too concerned with punishment etc but rather being forgiven by Dalinar. He may concerned if he gets banished, stranded from everyone he loves. However, I do expect Adolin to ask for forgiveness and I do expect Dalinar will eventually give it to him. Role-reversal was one of the big themes of Warbreaker with sisters Vivi and Siri. Could we see something like that? It's certainly possible but for it to happen realistically I think it would probably require him to be permanently put in a fundamentally different situation to any he has experienced before - eg being banished in disgrace. I'm not sure if staying but in disgrace would be big enough, though it's marginal. I think it's more likely that we'll see him change and develop into a more complex character but still pretty similar. In short, maturing into his own person (which is pretty much what you've said elsewhere). In order to grow as a character, Renarin needs to step away from his brother's shadow. He needs to find his usefulness and a place where he feels he can belong. He has strove to help his family since book 1 and has failed every time. I expect Renarin to end up succeeding, for once, at doing something for his family and for the brother he loves. I do not see it really as role-reversal... but more like Renarin realizing his brother needs him as much as he needs him. In other words, they need each other and despite not being a soldier, not being of much used in armed combat, Renarin can still make a difference... just not in a way he thought of before. Adolin has always been the strong one, the unbeatable one, but everyone needs a shoulder to lean onto every once in a while and I think Renarin may be that shoulder for a while. I am not sure about the banishment story plot... It could work, depending on how Brandon plans it out. Though in the case of the banishment, you have to find a way to bring Adolin back home, despite being forbidden to do so. If he ends p disgraced, shamed and shoved away, would he really come back? I guess he would, if he hears words someone is planning a coup against Dalinar, he would bounce back. Even if he thinks nobody loves him anymore, the still loves them, he'll still fight for them even if it is to his own grave. Not a bad plot, but not one that can be concluded in one book. I didn't want to suggest others because your argument was too good... but since you insist: we find out later that Adolin doesn't trust Amaram, so it could be that Adolin felt nauseous at the thought of secretly-a-scumbag Amaram quoting from The Way of Kings (not how it reads at the time though) Oh. I really did not read it this way... I guess this is a valid explanation, though I am leaning towards Adolin being fed up with the Way of Kings. In a way, that's why I'm hoping to see some strong clashes between Shallan and Dalinar - precisely because it would be difficult. Dalinar does sometimes accept an argument and Shallan has been able to work with difficult and stubborn people. Maybe Shallan will be able to soften Dalinar up enough so that Adolin can convince him with something suitably epic? I still think Dalinar won't bulge until something dramatic happens. Another idea I have had was Adolin settling out to do something dangerous, too dangerous or ending up in a bad predicament. Nobody has any idea really what Adolin is planning... They are disappointed with him, angry with him when Shallan burst in having managed to piece it all together only to be greeted very coldly. The engagement was broken, this matter did not concern her. Shallan protests in stating if that were the case, then shouldn't she be aware of that? It is then the whole Kohlin household realized how unhinged Adolin truly is as he told them the engagement was over... Nobody thought much of it as isn't it how it always ends with Adolin? A break-up? Anger moves to worry as Dalinar ends up listening to Shallan's argumentation. I had read that interview already and had thought I had covered it well enough by other comments. Sorry. I must have misunderstood your arguments then. I think we might see some limited verbal protests by groups in private. I have also amused myself with the idea of Shallan taking a poll amongst various groups to gauge their feelings... My thoughts were on General Kahl telling, in private, to Dalinar how strongly the men supported his son... Or to have the soldiers salute Adolin each time he walks past. Little gestures that would not go unnoticed by Dalinar. To what end would Shallan investigate on her own? I guess she may do that... She would add it to her lists of tasks: Figure out how to expunge husband to be. I don't think he'd be the only one to react positively but I think it could well make the biggest difference with him. Agree. It is what I meant. Of all people, his son frankness would make the most difference. There's almost certainly some things Shallan can learn from Adolin (independently of their relationship) and the idea did give me a warm fuzzy feeling How would Adolin react to Shallan's past deeds? Hmm... like with how Shallan could react to Adolin killing Sadeas there's multiple possibilities depending on how the information is revealed - I think he would find it hard to conceive of killing his own parents in any situation so if all he finds out is that she did do such a thing (and nothing about the circumstances) then I would not expect him to react to readily accept it. I think it would be more likely for him to doubt that the Shallan he knows could do such a thing and to not believe the information. But this is not at all to suggest that Adolin couldn't understand or believe in her as the simplest way to explain her situation would be "imagine your father was Sadeas"... Ialai will have a role to play in the next book... I could see her planting information here and there to destroy the trust the Kohlins have in each other, to break the apparent unity of the newly founded Radiants and what best way then to drop hints of Shallan Davar trouble past to her husband to be? Adolin first reaction would be to brush it away, to claim it falseness... but what would he do upon realizing it was the truth? Probably shun her away, at first. Family is something very important to him. He won't readily understand her motives, but I do think he may grow into comprehending or at the very least realizing her family may have needed killing Then invent a motive for them to get together again and have Adolin state out load he does not care what she did, he trusts her enough to know she must have had good reasons, no matter what they were. As for Shallan... I do not think she would be horrified... I think she would swear and wondered how it was possible her future husband managed to put himself into trouble, again. I wonder if there's any passages about confronting evil... I am unsure about that book... It looks to goodie-do for me... I have a bad feeling each time I think of the Way of Kings... I do not think it is a book to be taken literally as I suspect Dalinar is. Dalinar is definitely protective of his family but he won't do anything to protect them else he would have killed Sadeas himself already. Dalinar wants to do the right thing but what does he do if what he thinks is "the right thing" is directly in conflict with his desire to protect his family (which would normally be considered "the right thing")? That may be Dalinar's essential conflict for the book. Random thought - maybe instead of reacting decisively to Adolin's actions he instead... becomes paralysed with indecision and maybe instead of other protagonists coming to Dalinar to argue with his decision it is instead he who goes to them to ask for help in deciding what to do. I do agree. Dalinar's main conflict will be being thorn between doing what he thinks is right and he feels is right. He will need to find a way and I suspect this way will be tied to his third oath. However, I do not think Dalinar would watch his family, especially his children, get harm and sit still. I cannot see it happening. I do think it plausible he'll ask Navani for advice and Navani will tell him to cut the boy some slack as he has not done anything the Blackthorn has not done before. Sounds like how he reflected on his attitude/approach with Navani after nearly dying at end of tWoK. Not the same. In WoK, he faced his own death. He realized he was not immortal and he should take pleasure in what life has to offer even if it goes against Vorinism. Him being put in front of his son potential death would bring out something else... a failure greater then Galivar's death. He has never intended to sacrifice his sons: he says so himself when Adolin argues to let him go meet Eshonai. Dalinar claims he would not risk his son into a such a venture. Dalinar needs to be emotionally shaken to confront his beliefs. After nearly dying he confronted his relationship with Navani. What would it take for him to confront his inflexible attitude towards his son and his inability to forgive him? Something drastic. Like losing him. Does not have to happen as I suggested, it was just an idea. I wonder how it compares with what happened to Pattern for last 6 years. I don't remember him referencing events between her mother's death and being re-summoned. He was locked in his Blade state into a closet... I suspect Pattern went to something similar as the dead-Blades, the difference being its knight was still alive and said the oaths again. Adolin is not the original knight.. Something else needs to happen. Any Surgebinder perhaps, though there well may be variants between Orders for how well this works. In WoR we see Shallan "push" some Stormlight into Pattern so he can allow her illusions to work remotely. Now, that might only be practical because Shallan and Pattern are bonded but it's an example of intentionally transferring Stormlight itself so it may be possible in other ways. Perhaps, but I somehow doubt a Radiant would be able to give stormlight to someone else... Definitely. But he's still "suspiciously" good - I suspect a (small) supernatural boost, somewhere, somehow. Actually, for the longest time I thought Kaladin was suspiciously good. After all, he was the one who stated his previous spear master was angry at him for not needing any teaching to which Kaladin responded by saying (or thinking) that Kaladin Stormblessed just knew what to do with a spear... The whole scene gave the strong impression Kal's skill was not entirely his own. However, the idea was refuted by Brandon, so if Kal abnormal skill belongs to him, then Adolin's must as well as between the two, he is the one without a Nahel bond. Plus, he has started training at 6... which means Adolin has been sword fighting practically all his life. As for a boost, one thing I have thought of, still with the Blade revival approach, is Adolin, near the end of his resources in an epic fight (invent your fight), refusing to give up as it would mean sure death to those he loves.... So he propels himself back on his feet, grasping his Blade firmly in his hands and goes for one last desperate strike, but he glides very quickly across the floor to stab his startled opponent... TADA. Abrasion :ph34r: Consider this: much of life on Roshar has adapted to the environment, using Stormlight and spren. It's likely that the humans have adapted too, even if just by some small natural selection. We also know that the heavy amounts of Investure (Stormlight) on the world increases the general health of the population. It probably also makes them a bit stronger. Lighteyes are inherited genetic trait - they're probably the descendants of Radiants. It's possible some are more "attuned" to Stormlight than the general population and some better than other Lighteyes. Or something. Meaning Dalinar would have drawn Stormlight because he has a potential to do so and not because he was bonding the Stormfather? I do not think there was anything between him and Oathbrigner. He treated the Blade as a tool and nothing more. Besides, Adolin and his Blade are a rare happenstance... no matter how I calculate it the probability of a Blade to come into the hands of a compatible proto-Radiant are slim to none. Whatever is happening with Adolin is the event of the millennium. I think it could easily be different enough that it would not feel repetitive. True enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanavel Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 This may be taking the conversation back a bit, but I just found this forum and I love the idea of typing the characters. So far there seems to have only been a cursory mention of cognitive functions, but I think they could be very helpful. For the sake of anyone who is not familiar with the concept, I'll provide a brief (hopefully enlightening) explanation: Basically, the idea is that every one has "preferred" ways of processing information (perceiving functions) and making decisions (judging functions), called cognitive functions. The perceiving functions have to do with the second letter of a personality type - N or S - while the judging ones are related to the third letter - F or T. In addition, each function is either extroverted or introverted. In this case, extroverted simply means oriented toward the external world and the present moment, and introverted means oriented toward the internal experience and the past, present, and/or future. Each personality type has a dominant function, an auxiliary function, a tertiary function, and an inferior function. The dominant function will match the personality type's I or E and will be a perceiving or judging function based on whether the person is a P or a J. For example, I am an INFJ, so my dominant function is Ni (introverted iNtuition). Meanwhile, the auxiliary function is the opposite orientation (I or E) with the remaining middle letter (thus, mine is Fe or extroverted feeling). The tertiary function is the opposite of the auxiliary (mine is Ti), and the inferior the opposite of the dominant (mine, Se). At any rate, that is my understanding, but I am pretty new to this, so I would love any further insight from more experienced MBTI fans. For a more thorough explanation, http://www.careerplanner.com/8CognitiveFunctions/Cognitive-Functions-Simply-Explained.cfmis a good resource. Okay, so now to typing the Cosmere characters using functions. Jasnah - obviously an INTJ (Ni, Te, Fi, Se). Her Te is extremely strong, but you can tell it is not dominant because she gathers information and tries to make it fit her internal framework ad infinitum. Shallan - Possibly INFJ (Ni, Fe, Ti, Se). Her Se is surprisingly strong (e.g. in her artwork), but that is probably through frequent use and as an exercise of her Ni interests. Her Fe can be seen in her "chameleon" qualities that were highlighted by others and in her pursuit of global good. It probably accounts for a lot of her ability to manipulate and deceive because she picks up so strongly on the feelings of those around her. Kaladin - INFP (Fi, Ne, Si, Te). Kaladin is consumed by his internal feelings (granted this has a lot do do with his depression as well). Moreover, he is strongly motivated to live in keeping with his internal value system: he is at his worst when he is going against it in WoR and at his best every time he chooses to live by it. His Ne can be seen in his ability to see patterns on the battlefield. Even when he seems to be using his S - such as in diagnosing or treating those around him - it is in the context of his N because he is recognizing patterns of symptoms and adhering to the surgical/medical constructs he was taught by his father. Adolin - ESFP. I hardly think this needs explanation. He lives very much in the moment and in the external world, thus Se is his dominant function. His auxiliary is Fi and like Kaladin he has an internalized value system that dictates how he acts. I'm still pondering the others. I am curious what people's thoughts are on characters from other series. Say, Mistborn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Jasnah - obviously an INTJ (Ni, Te, Fi, Se). Her Te is extremely strong, but you can tell it is not dominant because she gathers information and tries to make it fit her internal framework ad infinitum. Shallan - Possibly INFJ (Ni, Fe, Ti, Se). Her Se is surprisingly strong (e.g. in her artwork), but that is probably through frequent use and as an exercise of her Ni interests. Her Fe can be seen in her "chameleon" qualities that were highlighted by others and in her pursuit of global good. It probably accounts for a lot of her ability to manipulate and deceive because she picks up so strongly on the feelings of those around her. Kaladin - INFP (Fi, Ne, Si, Te). Kaladin is consumed by his internal feelings (granted this has a lot do do with his depression as well). Moreover, he is strongly motivated to live in keeping with his internal value system: he is at his worst when he is going against it in WoR and at his best every time he chooses to live by it. His Ne can be seen in his ability to see patterns on the battlefield. Even when he seems to be using his S - such as in diagnosing or treating those around him - it is in the context of his N because he is recognizing patterns of symptoms and adhering to the surgical/medical constructs he was taught by his father. Adolin - ESFP. I hardly think this needs explanation. He lives very much in the moment and in the external world, thus Se is his dominant function. His auxiliary is Fi and like Kaladin he has an internalized value system that dictates how he acts. Adolin is ESFJ. He has a very strong respect of authority. He respond well to command structure as opposed to Kaladin who only obeys the orders he sees fit. Adolin may voice disagreements, but he ultimately does as he is being told. These are strong characteristic of SJ. personality types. He is also very orderly and likes neat things (I am quite sure he keeps his room in perfect order, though we have no evidence), another aspect of J-type personalities. Also, typical SJ types strongly value personal experience in their learning process. They will always fall back to their own life experience and will tend to listen to so-called expert, quite the opposite behavior of INTJ whom will question the validity of any expert. Throughout both books, Adolin, much like Dalinar, learn through his experiences as opposed to teachings. He heavily dwells in the concrete as opposed to the abstract. Jasnah is a very obvious INTJ, not much to discuss here. I think we converged on INFJ for Shallan as well, but we changed our mind so often, I need to go back reading the discussion. We never did Kaladin. I was never entirely convinced he was a F-type, but I have a hard time pinpointing Internal Feelers as I have more experience with External Feelers.I disagree about his ability to see pattern on the battlefield, it is quite the contrary: Kaladin has always had issues at seeing the larger picture. He is very focused on the small things: his crew, his people, protecting them. Seeing the end game is not his best skill and he often had to have someone explain it to him. I think he may be more of an ISFP. Most of his knowledge is taught as opposed to intuitive. He knows things because he was schooled. He was not schooled in battle tactics: he is poor at it unless it involves a small number of people. He is not one to lead an army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 ISTJ, myself. I do have ghost types, sometimes. INTJ or ISFJ. This is interesting, I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanavel Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Thank you for the in depth response, Maxal. You're right: consensus was more or less reached on Shallan being an INFJ. I'm actually still waivering a bit on that one because she is so attuned to the external world. INFJs can be pretty oblivious to sensory details (though not to emotional or relational ones, usually). You raise some interesting points about Adolin, but I still have to disagree. The sticking point for me is that Adolin does very, very little planning, which suggests a preference for P over J. His extreme respect for authority could be explained by his personality, but it could also be explained by his culture. I don't know if you have ever lived in a particularly hierarchical culture - say, more so than the US or most Western European countries - but I have. From personal experience, I know that respect for authority is ingrained into everyone, and this would be especially true somewhere as stratified as Kholinar. Granted, within that there is still variation between individuals; however, as a general's son raised in a family that would have emphasized that hierarchy even more, Adolin is conceivably just a product of his culture in that respect. His tidy inclinations might also reflect his military upbringing or his sensitivity to external stimuli (which could fit with Se). I think sometimes we forget that Myers-Briggs types are not about personality in the colloquial sense, but are more about how each person's brain tends to work. That's how you get so much variation within a specific type. I'm pretty convinced, but I do also see your argument for the J and it is entirely possible I am wrong. I am also pretty convinced about Kaladin. I see what you mean about him not seeing the big picture - I distinctly remember Dalinor reprimanding him for this following the duel - but I also think that having an Ne auxiliary function does not necessary mean he would see the big picture. All of his actions are motivated by that Fi, which encompasses his own feelings as well as his personal value system. He specifically values protecting others, which comes out again and again in his efforts to save Bridge 4, etc. As I understand it, Ne is more about seeing what is in front of him and patterns in the external world, and the intense drive of his Fi clouds his view of even what he knows of the bigger picture. Shallan, with her Fe, is able to sacrifice what personally matters to her in order to serve the greater good, i.e. choosing to help Jasnah rather than try to save her family. That is where the difference between the two feeling functions comes out. Anyway, his Ne definitely comes out in battle scenes. He has flashes of intuition about the external situation, such as knowing where a line of soldiers is going to break and intuitively feeling the ebb and flow of battle. This happens first when he is fighting under Amaram and later at the Shattered Plains. He just focuses on his small group each time because that is what matters to him. As for his knowledge being taught, certainly he has been taught! Jasnah, Navani, and Shallan have been taught by their studies, but I think we all agree that they are Ns. Kaladin has been taught by his father and by a few instructors in the army; however, he grasps the ideas and applies them innovatively, intuitively understanding battle tactics much grander than they would have taught a spear-man. Furthermore, he lives in his head a great deal, trying to understand things. A good example of this is when Syl first starts following him and he cannot help but wonder about what type of windspren she is that she would act so oddly. He doesn't even want to wonder because he is trying not to care about anything, but it seems like he cannot help but try to figure out how that fits with his understanding of windspren. The only thing that makes me think he might be an Si is the role his memories play in his life. Nevertheless, a good memory is not limited to an Si, and considering the traumas he has experienced, it would be weird for any type if not to be haunted by memories. In fact, now that I think about it, I see that as an expression of his Fi because it is about his perceived failure to meet that internal standard of saving everyone he comes in contact with. Have I persuaded you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 Thank you for the in depth response, Maxal. Thanks It is fun to see other people joining in. You're right: consensus was more or less reached on Shallan being an INFJ. I'm actually still waivering a bit on that one because she is so attuned to the external world. INFJs can be pretty oblivious to sensory details (though not to emotional or relational ones, usually). I also recalled it has been our consensus. I had the tendency to point her out as an INTJ as opposed to INFJ, but Kari pointed out I may be reading Introverted Feelers wrong, which is possible. Being an Extroverted Feeler myself, I relate more easily to characters exhibiting the same characteristics. You raise some interesting points about Adolin, but I still have to disagree. The sticking point for me is that Adolin does very, very little planning, which suggests a preference for P over J. His extreme respect for authority could be explained by his personality, but it could also be explained by his culture. I don't know if you have ever lived in a particularly hierarchical culture - say, more so than the US or most Western European countries - but I have. From personal experience, I know that respect for authority is ingrained into everyone, and this would be especially true somewhere as stratified as Kholinar. Granted, within that there is still variation between individuals; however, as a general's son raised in a family that would have emphasized that hierarchy even more, Adolin is conceivably just a product of his culture in that respect. His tidy inclinations might also reflect his military upbringing or his sensitivity to external stimuli (which could fit with Se). I think sometimes we forget that Myers-Briggs types are not about personality in the colloquial sense, but are more about how each person's brain tends to work. That's how you get so much variation within a specific type. I'm pretty convinced, but I do also see your argument for the J and it is entirely possible I am wrong. I disagree Adolin does little planning. He did plan the duels, always using the best strategy to ensure him more duels. He never lost sight of the end goal: disarming the other Highprinces. Each time he had to face an opponent, we could almost see the tiny wheels in his mind put themselves into motion, analyzing, thinking, planning. He has a fight to win: what is the best strategy? He has little regards for him own safety, willing to take as many hits as requires if it secures him the victory in the end. During the Plateau fight, at the end of WoR, Adolin was given command of the Kohlin army. Aladar had command of his and Dalinar sent experienced Teleb and General Kahl to lead Roion's as he was missing someone capable. The remaining Kohlin shardbearers seemed to have been sent with either Aladar or Roion as Adolin was alone on his. All things put in perspective, Adolin was by far the least experienced and the youngest leader out there and yet, he won the most decisive fight. Why? Better strategy, better planning. He was put in front of a fight he could not win and what did he do? He got creative, used knowledge transferred to him by Shallan and secured a victory. Did he even doubt Shallan may have been wrong? Not one bit. He considers her to be smarter then him, so he does not question her. When he faced Eshonai, he was rapidly overwhelmed in the duel: while being in Stormform, she is taller and stronger then him. She is also using a fighting style he was not used to and to boot things up he was, from his own admission tired and nauseated. What did he do? He used the Thrill against her and shove her down the chasm. Clever move. He planned all of those things. When it comes to area of expertise: battles, he keeps a very clear level head (or has so far) and thinks things through. I agree about your take on cultural difference being able to explain one's extreme respect of authority, but it is more then that with Adolin. He is the son of a general, true, but he is also the son of a Highprince, raised to become a leader in his own years. He has been groomed since his teenage years for command. Moreover, Dalinar has been imposing on him strict rules he strongly disagrees with. What has the rules done to him? They have robbed him of his teenage years as he has been forced to wear a boring uniform, which may not mean much of other people, but for someone like Adolin it was a big deal. He was prevented from drinking and partying, which again are things other people would look down on thinking them insignificant, but the effect has been to keep Adolin away from the social interactions an extroverted individual such as him not only crave for, but need to keep their energy level high. All in all, Dalinar more or less destroyed the youth of his son by forcing him to act way beyond his age, to endorse rules which strongly contradicted with his personal needs for proper social interaction and peer acceptance. And what did Adolin do about it? Nothing. He obeyed as a true J type would have done. Had he been a P type such as Kaladin, he would have rebelled a long time ago. Also, overall tidiness, strong attention to details (Adolin has shinny buttons, his uniform is more polish, he styles his hair) and perfectionism (he works extremely hard to be the best possible duelist, everything he does, he does it well and to near perfection, he puts high expectations upon himself, he wants to be the best) are other J-type indicators. Sure military upbringing and authoritative father could explain many things, but not everything. Look at Kaladin, which we can all agree is a P type. Kaladin does not take good care of his physical person: he does not care if his uniform is well pressed or perfectly clean. He does not care about his hair. Kaladin also does not care about authority, at all. He does not respect rank, he respect valor and honor or what he considers to be such thing. Had Adolin been a P type, we would have seen some of these behaviors: he would have gone against Dalinar more strongly. He would have never let the Tower happen. ... The issue I have with Kaladin and seeing the big picture is, by comparison, I believe Adolin is much better at it then Kaladin. We could argue one was taught these specific things and the other not. So the difference could lay there, but I also believe, inherently, Kaladin would be unable to lead an army, as Adolin does, as it would required him to make choices, to decide to take hits to secure advantages and Kaladin is not willing to put at risk one single individual, even if it meant saving a greater number. He is strongly focus on the small things around him. When fighting with Amaram's army, his strategy was the one ensuring the least possible risks to his men: running fast to avoid the arrows. Was it the best strategy for the overall army? I do not know. All in all, I do not see Kaladin as a tactical leader. He is very good when in charge of a squad, small numbers. When put in the head of the battle, his very keen at seeing how to move his small group around obstacles, but could he take the lead of 10 000 men like Adolin? Could Kaladin have won the Plateau fight? I doubt so as each time he was placed in front of larger scale events, he failed to grasp the end goal. He got sidetracked. It is true his F-type most likely hinders him on that matter as he cannot put away is personal objective which is protecting those he has decided to protect. Kaladin was taught, a lot, much more then even highranked lighteyes and this has been highlighted a few times. His education largely surpassed that of Princes such as Adolin who, despite having had tutors, still fails at reading glyphs His general knowledge of things is far above that of most people, being nearly on par with a scholar. Kaladin is way up there in terms of education. He is the only male we have seen having had an education. Adolin most likely spent his childhood sparring on the training ground with a few hours dedicated towards learning the few things allowed to men. Kaladin has also been taught since childhood to analyze things, to figure them out, to find an explanation as these are the skill sets required by a good surgeon. Shallan was self-taught for the most part. So if Kaladin more of a N or a S? This is a hard one. I do agree about the I and the P, these are a given. I am getting tempted to put him as a F as well, though not a strong one. In terms of F, I see Shallan being close to the T, Kaladin is bit more away and Adolin being all the way there. I am unsure about Dalinar. Renarin must be an INTJ as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybal Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 I can't help thinking that Dalinar would fall more under ISFJ. He isn't really an extrovert, especially in the way that Adolin is. He would prefer to be behind the scenes making sure that everything turns out properly. Also, the only area where he is really T over F is battle. Whether he shows his feelings is irrelevant. His emotional response is probably most evident in his visit to the Nightwatcher and his initial decision to abdicate his position. Furthermore, look at how easily he was led into a trap by Sadeas - because his feelings overruled logical thought. (sorry if someone already posted this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted April 11, 2015 Report Share Posted April 11, 2015 I can't help thinking that Dalinar would fall more under ISFJ. He isn't really an extrovert, especially in the way that Adolin is. He would prefer to be behind the scenes making sure that everything turns out properly. Also, the only area where he is really T over F is battle. Whether he shows his feelings is irrelevant. His emotional response is probably most evident in his visit to the Nightwatcher and his initial decision to abdicate his position. Furthermore, look at how easily he was led into a trap by Sadeas - because his feelings overruled logical thought. (sorry if someone already posted this) I would be more willing to put Dalinar as a ISTJ as opposed to ISFJ. You make a good point in bringing forward Dalinar's past experiences as the Blackthorn where he was obviously overruled by his emotional response to events. However, I do believe Dalinar has changed as it is possible to have your MBTI type evolve throughout your life. Dalinar has been becoming more T and less F as he aged. He bound himself in so many rules such as to avoid his F response to rule him in order to let his T type shine. As for the Sadeas's part, I did not read it as Dalinar letting his feelings clouding his judgement. He truly thought Sadeas was working for the greater good of Alethkar, a fact he was willing to defend by bringing forward Sadeas playing decoy for Galivar. He also misinterpreted his visions thinking they really told him to trust Sadeas. Had he listened to his son, who is much more attuned to others emotions, he may have seen Sadeas upcoming treachery, but he didn't. Because he thought he had enough argument to support his trust of Sadeas. He does the same with Amaram. He trusts Amaram because the man has a spotless reputation. Adolin is not fooled by it, thinking something is wrong with him as he cannot shake of the feeling Amaram may be hiding something. Dalinar does not read people in such way. He is rather blind sighted when it comes to people. Dalinar does not also present the emotional vulnerability strong feelers have. Whatever emotions he may have, he controls them. He keeps them on the inside. He is not hurt by others mockery. He does not care about such things. You can't attack Dalinar which is why he is such an imposing opponent: he is like a rock with no grip on it. You can't get to him. Sadeas understood that when he devised his plan to attack the son instead. All in all, he may have been a feeler earlier in his life, but he acts more like a thinker right now. A decoy? Perhaps, but we have yet to see Dalinar loose control due to his emotions. Adolin who is our strongest feeler struggles to process his own emotional response to external situations. Kaladin and Shallan, potentially much weaker feelers, do not have the same issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanavel Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 I'm back! You made some good arguments and I was kind of torn on the S issue because of Kaladin’s encyclopedic memory, so I decided to think it through very thoroughly. As long as I stick to using the cognitive functions model, I still come back to the INFP. All in all, I do not see Kaladin as a tactical leader. He is very good when in charge of a squad, small numbers. When put in the head of the battle, his very keen at seeing how to move his small group around obstacles, but could he take the lead of 10 000 men like Adolin? Could Kaladin have won the Plateau fight? I doubt so as each time he was placed in front of larger scale events, he failed to grasp the end goal. He got sidetracked. It is true his F-type most likely hinders him on that matter as he cannot put away is personal objective which is protecting those he has decided to protect. Kaladin was taught, a lot, much more then even highranked lighteyes and this has been highlighted a few times. His education largely surpassed that of Princes such as Adolin who, despite having had tutors, still fails at reading glyphs His general knowledge of things is far above that of most people, being nearly on par with a scholar. Kaladin is way up there in terms of education. He is the only male we have seen having had an education. Adolin most likely spent his childhood sparring on the training ground with a few hours dedicated towards learning the few things allowed to men. Kaladin has also been taught since childhood to analyze things, to figure them out, to find an explanation as these are the skill sets required by a good surgeon. [...] So if Kaladin more of a N or a S? This is a hard one. I do agree about the I and the P, these are a given. I am getting tempted to put him as a F as well, though not a strong one. In terms of F, I see Shallan being close to the T, Kaladin is bit more away and Adolin being all the way there. In terms of Ss and Ns, I was torn between Si, Se, and Ne. The Si can be seen in Kaladin’s memory (as mentioned above), specifically in his memory of medical facts and the application thereof. As for the Se, it isn’t as strong but it is present in his skill as a warrior and his attention to sensory details. Last, the Ne can be seen in his intuitive understanding of the situations he is in, such as anticipating the ebb and flow of battle. Working on the assumption that he is an F (to be explained shortly) and an I, the options for his personality type are ISFJ (functions Si Fe Ti Ne, consecutively), ISFP (Fi Se Ni Te), and INFP (Fi Ne Si Te). Now, I see Kaladin’s F as very clear: is drives his actions throughout both books. In WoK, for example, he decides based on his feelings when he fights the village boys in front of Laral, volunteers for the army, spends his pay to get as many young boys assigned to his squad as possible, goes after the knight and the shardbearer when fighting for Amaram, decides to help Bridge 4, goes back to rescue Dalinar, etc. In WoR, he tries to make a “logical” decision when he doesn’t report Moash’s plan against the king, but he cannot rest with himself until he makes the supposedly illogical, value-based decision to rescue him. However, Kaladin’s F is not extraverted. He is not particularly sensitive to the feelings of people around him and does not make decisions based on their feelings. Instead, he cares deeply about people, feels strongly about his values, and decides according to what feels right to him. Therefore, one of his top two functions must be Fi. This eliminates ISFJ. Now we are down to ISFP and INFP, so I am stuck between Se and Ne as his auxiliary. Si and Ne were the two strongest contenders to begin with, so I am already predisposed to go with Ne. Still, let’s look at the remaining two functions to confirm that distinction. ISFP leaves us with Ni and Te, and INFP leaves us with Si and Te. The Te is the same either way, so it is down to the Ni and the Si. I really don’t see Ni in Kaladin at all, and Si is clearly evident; therefore, Kaladin is an INFP based on its functions of Fi Ne Si Te. In response to your point about his apparent inability to see the big picture, you are right. He does not see the big picture, and that is why he is an Ne not an Ni. Extraverted functions are focused on the external world and the present moment, so Kaladin can consider lots of possible and innovative next steps but not necessarily seeing the big picture projected into the future or beyond his perspective. Moreover, his Fi is so strong it often overrides what he does know of the big picture. I’m going to sit down and think out Adolin and Dalinar next. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanavel Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 Granted, if you don't go with the functions theory, then we are back to the S/N problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarcasm Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 Off the top of my head, this is what I can come up with: Hoid: ENFJ SA: Kaladin: ENTJ Shallan: INFP, maybe ENFP? I don't really know. Szeth: I haven't the faintest idea Dalinar: ISFJ Adolin: ISFJ?ESTP? I'm not sure. Renarin: ENTP/ I'm really bad at this, feel free to contradict, add, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 Hoid is either ENTP or ENTJ. Kaladin, I think, is not ENTJ. Renarin is not ENTP, in my opinion. Full disclosure: I'm an ENTJ, with a slight leaning towards ENTP, so I can generally tell when a person is not one of those. There was actually a thread on this a while back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kestrel Posted June 6, 2015 Report Share Posted June 6, 2015 I think Kaladin would be on the introverted side of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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