Cosmere MBTI

[maxal]

My work desk is quite clean but I think that's more because I rarely need anything else. My flat is a horrible mess most of the time...

 

I recently gave up on ever having an organized life

 

 

 

For the Oathgate, I was in particular thinking about the following aspects: guessing that Stormseat is in the middle of the Shattered Plains - even Pattern thought she was wrong... but as she said, "use a little imagination" Another thing was deciding to draw out the entire Shattered Plains on a huge canvas - she was sure she needed to do it but had no idea how it would be useful in advance. There's some other things though it's hard to determine how much was good observation and logical reasoning and how much is intuition.

 

It could be intuition... She did act on an impulse, but I still think her ability to resolved puzzle as well as her Nahel bond enhanced memory was the key to solving the mystery. Without those attributes, she would most likely have failed at finding the answer.

 

 

Hmm. That's certainly a very clear and strong example... Well, for Shallan the scene that sprung to mind was this:

Deliberately risking your life to be able to see a chasmfiend - good enough...?

 

This was a typical Adolin scene serving to highlight his emotional instability which, later on, will prompt him to kill Sadeas. As for your example, I am not sure it highlights the same issues.... Shallan was obviously being curious and I have always thought it was the scholar in her that spoke, the same one who desired to see the Santid back on the ship. I do not typically associate curiosity with feelings. It got the better of her, but it is quite different than Adolin obvious emotional overflow. In the case of Shallan, she wants to know. In the case of Adolin, he is so stressed out, afraid, angry at himself, he cannot bring himself to reason logically. In the chasmfield scene, I think Shallan reasoned quite logically, but her logic draw the conclusion our logic would never have drawn: that it was worth to risk one's life to draw the picture of a mystical animal.

 

Overall, not a bad example, but I am unsure it proves our point. I think we need something stronger. Adolin clearly tells us, the reader, he is unable to rationalize his feelings towards the attack.

 

 

Personally, while I would like her to be more confident in herself and I mostly enjoy it when she takes bold action, I hope she doesn't lose her tendency for self-depreciation or otherwise not taking herself too seriously. She'd become an entirely different character to me and I'd probably find her to be less interesting. I'm hoping for something more like Mat from The Wheel of Time or Moist from Discworld (ie becomes more mature and complex but never quite grow up either)

Pendulum huh? Hmm. I have three mental images for Shallan and I'm not quite sure which to go with. One is a jack-in-the-box (she's spent most of her life being pressed down and now is bouncing back, surprising everyone). The second is a runaway train. The third is an explosion in slow-motion. I tend to go with the first one.

 

I like pro-active character and I tend to dislike those who dwell indefinitely into indecision and/or introspection. I too enjoy when she takes bold action as it is when, I believe, her story plots becomes more interesting. I would not want her to become a different character either. However, I do think she tends to act as chameleon: being who she needs to be in order to reach her goals. So perhaps the pendulum is not accurate. Adolin is the emotional pendulum. Shallan is a chameleon.

 

I do not see her in Mat though... Mat was always evading his responsibilities, always claiming he did not care, only to end up living up to them. However, I do not see the level of complain Mat offered us in Shallan. Shallan knows she has responsibilities, she is not evading them: she is evading herself. I do agree it would be sad to see Shallan lose her childish glee, just as I do not want Adolin to lose his.

 

I like the jack-in-the-box analogy. I think it is a good one. The runaway train is what she was: she is growing out of it as she is forced to face down her fears.

 

 

Shallan often seems to be thinking of several things at the same time and Adolin definitely brings out the teenage girl in her too... but when Shallan considers the possibility of using illusions to enhance herself she does think ahead to (possible) married life - do you consider that to be typical of teenagers from Roshar?

For Shallan's reaction to the causal, when she did ponder what she knew of Adolin she recalled daydreams of meeting a prince not marrying one. Her joy at the causal was much more because it was a simple but effective solution to her problems. Her personal feelings towards Adolin in advance were more muted:

I think Shallan was mentally prepared for Adolin to be rather different and was being entirely honest when she describes Adolin as "a wonderful surprise".

 

I think Rosharian teenagers are being married very young. It is therefore not far-fetched to think a 17 years old girl would be thinking of such thing upon meeting her young man for a first date. Nowadays teenager girl wearing an "enhanced" bra would be more concerned as to what her date would think of her breast once they get down in bed more than her everyday married life When it comes down to it, both dilemmas are quite similar. The context is different, but the results are the same. Shallan and the nowadays teenager wonder if they'll get call down on using "artificial enhancement" once the clothes are gone. Both want to please and both have the initial impulse of thinking their physical self may not be "good enough". Both thus wonder of they should use whatever means at their disposition to "improve" this appearance in order to better seduce the young man. However both know it would be a subterfuge, soon to be uncovered.

 

Well, I think Shallan never thought she could ever marry a prince. A prince was far above her station, so dreaming of marrying one was hopeless. Perhaps if she had been born in a higher rank, she may have. She did know all the names of the Alethkar princes and knew quite a few things about Adolin. She was enthusiast over the fact he was: a full shardbearer and a duelist..... However, she had no way of knowing what kind of person Adolin was before meeting him and it is true she expected someone different. She expected a highborn  man, self-centered, arrogant and snotty. Instead, she found a charming, friendly, genuine, down to earth with a handsome smile young man. So yes, I do think she is sincere in saying he was a "delightful surprise".

 

 

I previously said "the interesting thing about their arranged marriage is that there's no pressure on them from others, only from themselves" and what you say above is the sort of things I was thinking about for "from themselves". Looks like we agree

 

 

I agree to agree with you then

 

 

Hmm, I don't remember any indication that they talked of such things or that they were close. Shallan had only been off the Davar estate 3 times before she set off to find Jasnah (probably all occasions like Middlefest) so she and Eylita wouldn't have been able to meet up much at all - I don't think Eylita was able to come to the Davar estate much until Lin Davar died (Lin didn't approve of Eylita at all and Eylita's parents didn't like Lin at all). I don't know how much they wrote to each other but I don't remember any indication that they talked about anything other than Balat.

 

OK, well, perhaps it happened in my imagination :ph34r:

 

 

 

I'm not quite settled on my understand of Shallan myself and I've re-read her scenes more than any other character. I'm not sure where Brandon is going to go with Shallan and Kaladin long-term but my current impression of Kaladin is that right now, he'd likely make a poor boyfriend - he's rather too married to his job and to a soldier's way of thinking. Even his men complain he's a workaholic. It also looks likely that he's going to be away for much of book 3.

(Side note: I hope I'm not coming across as overly negative on Kaladin here. He's done incredible things and he certainly deserves happiness. However, he also has scars. Unless he's incredibly lucky I think he'll have real trouble with long term romance any time soon - not that I'm good at it myself and I have fewer excuses. I'm not saying he has no chance with Shallan either or doesn't deserve a chance)

As I see it, Kaladin needed to get to know Shallan better to get over his prejudice of Lighteyes. At the start of WoR he's extremely distrustful of all Lighteyes and makes only a moderate exception for Dalinar. Though he generally becomes more negative as the book progressed he added Renarin and then Adolin to his list of exceptions. Until the chasm scenes he'd only viewed Shallan as a "typical Lighteyes". I used to wonder why Brandon wrote the whole "boots" scene, since it seemed unnecessary but after thinking about it for a while I think it was mostly so that Kaladin would give himself an easy excuse to only view Shallan as a typical Lighteyes - which means that when they have their chasm scenes it has a bigger impact on him as he starts to re-evaluate her. One major effect of the chasm scenes for Kaladin was to be forced to realise that his default way of viewing Lighteyes was wrong and that he was mistaken in his assumptions.

On a side note, I'm not sure if it's rare or typical of Lightweavers but Shallan ends up being a sort-of mental healer for a lot of people, Kaladin included. Too many to be a co-incidence. Particularly when how suitable INFJs are considered to be for such tasks.

 

I agree Kaladin currently is poor boyfriend material. He clearly is not in the right state of mind to enter into a long term relationship. I also think Shallan, even if she refuses to acknowledge it, needs someone who will care for her. Nobody ever did. I do not think it would be healthy for her to begin an adventure with someone so centered on his duty. It is not Adolin is not dutiful, but Kaladin does not leave himself any room for any relationships. I would see Kaladin with a women would who follow him, who would work with him. Shallan has her own agenda, her own work. Being with Kaladin, they would struggle to find time to be together.

 

I do agree Kaladin is heavily scared, more than any other character we have met so far. I do wish him to be happy, but I am not sure we will see it. He never was happy, even as a child, even before Roshone, even before the hardships, he was a non prone to smiling kid. For my part, I do hope whatever relationship between Kaladin and Shallan will end up being one of friendship akin to siblings as I do not think it is healthy to tie the knot with the women you associate so strongly with your brother and your mother. I will however accept this is my personal opinion. Anyone is free to disagree.

 

It is true Kaladin needed his time in the chasm with Shallan, even if I hated those scenes    I do get your point about the boots scene. I had wonder as well as to the purpose of this chapter. Shallan has served as an eye opened for Kaladin as so far, he has trusted Dalinar, the most honorable man in the whole world and Renarin, the sick outcast kid. He couldn't bring himself to admit he actually liked Adolin, the perfect friendly lighteyed who laugh with darkeyed children until Shallan served him a dose of his own medicine. Dalinar and Renarin had their difference playing in their favor, whereas Adolin embodied everything Kaladin has come to hate and despised. I was glad to see him move pass it towards the end and I do hope the friendship between him and Adolin will grow.

 

Funny as a theory I have seen around is stating Tien was a proto-Lightweaver...

 

 

 

Thinking a bit more on Adolin's previous girlfriends and the Alethi in general: it's clear that the Alethi Highprinces are far from shining examples of humanity. This is not a new thing either. There doesn't seem to be anything indicating that the younger generation are any better. In addition to the examples already raised, early in tWoK Jasnah notes that Shallan didn't throw a tantrum - sounds like she's come to expect such reactions from prospective wards! I remember Dalinar being a bit surprised that Jasnah took on a new ward since Jasnah often claimed to not have the time. Seems like it's more like that they were not worth her time - if she really didn't have time or inclination she would reject them much earlier.

Jasnah and Adolin are evaluating quite different attributes among the same group of people but they're both looking for quality and both are finding the options to be lacking. Interesting thought...

 

 

I do think Alethi nobility believe they are entitled and as a result end-up being a very self-centered bunch. The Kohlin boys however had a foreign mother, we could ask ourselves how much influence she had on them as they grew up. We have not seen any example of a highborn child growing up. I have been wondering if the children were being raised by their mother or by tutors similar as what was often seen in our world's previous nobility. Based on Navani's evaluation of Shshshsh, we can gather Adolin took his friendly outgoing caring personality from her. We could extrapolate and ask ourselves about the lasting effect of her education on her sons, which is bond to differ as she was born elsewhere.

 

On her side, Shallan had a most unusual upbringing, which accounts for her difference. She has not been taught how to behave properly and therefore forgot she i supposed to be self-centered... She thus came out as refreshing to Adolin's eyes. There is no getting out of it, I think these two are adorable together, which is probably why I give such a hard time on poor Kal I hope Brandon will find him some reason to smile in the next book.

 

 

 

That's not where I was going with that scenario at all, honest! I agree Brandon wouldn't go there either. However, I'll give you an interesting scenario to picture that could actually happen: exact setting doesn't matter but lets say that Shallan gets a chance to make "any" request of Adolin... and what she asks for is... for Adolin to pose nude for her - all in the name of art, honest!

I'm thinking something a bit like the sketch scene in the film Titanic, but with the genders reversed. I think Adolin could agree to such a request though would be quite embarrassed initially, while Shallan would get increasingly flustered. I'm also envisioning Shallan being unable to forget for a week afterwards and having a tendency to blush at odd moments, leading everyone else to jump to the wrong conclusion...

 

I gathered this is not where you were going, but when you mentioned "Shallan, nigh, Adolin's bedroom", this is where MY mind went :ph34r: Whereas I agree Brandon would most likely not go there, I kinda hope he would: young people have intimate relationships. It is not natural to act as if it never happens...

 

OK Adolin posing nude, now you've got me However, you make me wonder how she would manage to convince him to do this... Adolin had not struck me as the most outgoing kinda guy when it comes to intimacy, in fact, he looked downright shy. If such scene happens, both would most likely would be red all over during the whole time and need I remember you how this particular scene ended up in Titanic??? You know... the car one.... If Adolin gets nude in front of Shallan.... well.... I do not see it ending up innocently... or perhaps, those Alethi are SO prude As to the drawing... In Titanic, Rose's fiance does find it... Now imagine if Dalinar were to stumble on that?

 

 

 

Hmm. I have several thoughts on all this but I'll leave them to a later post. I need to ponder it a bit more - I had not originally been rating the probability of Adolin reviving his Shardblade that high but now I'm kinda expecting it so thinking through how this could play out.

One thing though: you seem to view it as likely that Shallan and Adolin will be having some difficulties in their relationship from the start of the next book, even before stuff with Sadeas comes out. However, your reasons seem to assume that Adolin has already found out various things you've listed that could cause problems - he may well find them out but not necessarily immediately. Instead I'd expect that things go from being nice and sunny to stormy once the Sadeas stuff comes out.

 

Adolin revives his Blade is such an adorable theory The way he behaves with it, I just cannot picture him bonding any other spren. It would feel like a betrayal Besides, Brandon's last WoB on the subject was more informative than the previous one where he stated it would be nearly impossible. This time,he said he could do it, if he says the oaths and does something else.

 

Yes, I do view them as having difficulties. Adolin did not end book 2 in a good place and events will take a toll on him. He already is insecure when it comes to relationships as they always ended up failing on him from reasons he could never comprehend. Now Shallan is a Radiant, so it makes him even more insecure. Add to that the fact Dalinar/Renarin are Radiants as well, add the murder of Sadeas he'll have a hard time concealing, add this new city they found themselves in.... Keep on adding and you have the perfect recipe for Adolin to blew it up. One of the characteristic of strongly emotional people is they have a threshold. Imagine a glass, emotions are water, the stronger they are, the more it fills the glass and when the water reaches the edge: it overflows and it falls all over the place. It's the best metaphor I can think of...

 

So basically, I am thinking the number one difficulty for their relationship will be Adolin himself. The second he'll start to think Shallan is drifting away, he'll jump to the wrong conclusions. Finding out about the other stuff (Kaladin, confidence, her family) would simply cement his perspective she does not want him as isn't how it always ends for him? I do see them having many difficulties over the next book, but I do think they move pass it, eventually.

 

 

This is a pretty cool idea. I can't add anything to the current discussion on Shallan since you've got it pegged down to the results I would throw out, and I don't know which one she actually is. However, I do want to say something about the SJ's: Dalinar and Adolin. In particular Dalinar.

 

Dalinar reminds me a lot of myself. I'm an ESTJ (or I was when I took the quiz last month), but my EST preferences are all slight (11-12%), and I think I'm actually more of an ambivert than I or E, since when I took the quiz in October, I was an ISTJ. I think Dalinar is similar, though, as has been noted, he is a tough one to peg. For one, his SJ-ness and following Tanavast as much as he is makes it hard to know if the E he portrays is really him or Tanavast. There's also his position and cause. Leaders have to show a certain amount of E to be successful. They need to be able to converse with a lot of people, and the more natural the conversation is, the better. They need to be comfortable surrounded by people for long periods of time, or at least seem comfortable. Dalinar's association with so many people and his apparent calmness while talking with people he doesn't know/just met makes him appear somewhat like an E, but I think he's an I. It's just a slight preference of I over E, but I'm pretty sure he's an I. Part of that is seen pretty clearly in the size of the group he truly relies upon. In WoK, that group is largely just his family. In WoR, it branches out to include Kaladin, and I think by the end, you might be able to say Sebarial is in it too. Maybe. But that's a bit of a jump. E's, in my experience, branch out more than that, particularly to people other than family (not that family isn't included. They are, but their family doesn't make up the largest portion of the group, typically).

 

Nice one on Dalinar. I do tend to think he is a low I as well.... Introverted people are not all uncomfortable within social gathering and many of them can converse adequately. Just like everything, there are levels of introversion. I know quite a few real-life low introverted people having no issues talking in front of large audiences and being at ease with people, it is just they do not need this kind of attention. The do not reveal in it like a E-type would. E-type need the social interaction to feel alive, whereas I-type can go for the longest time without it and not care so much. Based on this, Dalinar is a low I-type. He is at ease taking the leadership, but he is not looking forward social gatherings. He does not care how he is perceived, he does not want to fit in and has no issues sitting alone in a party.

 

 

 

And a bit ago, maxal or kari-no-sugata mentioned that Adolin surrounds himself with a wide group of friends, but it isn't until Shallan comes along that he really opens up. This also seems to indicate that Adolin is actually an I. He's trying to masquerade as an E, but deep down, he's an I. Probably with a higher preference of I than Dalinar. Maybe a moderate preference. Somewhere in the 25-30% range, as opposed to Dalinar's 10-15%.

 

Whereas you bring out an interesting idea and a valid point, I believe you are highlighting here the difference between a E-feeler and a E-thinker.

 

E-feelers tend to be very sensitive people. They get hurt, easily. They get emotionally overflowed, easily, but they need the social contact. They love to be the center of attention, to have people being gathered around them, they love to talk, they love to share, but at the same time, they are easily unsettled. One very common protection mechanism E-feelers will have is to surround themselves with hordes of acquaintances and thus keep the discussion over silly subjects, avoiding anything deep or anything they care too strongly about. The best example of this is Adolin's wine drinking scene shortly before his boring duel in WoK. He sits with his "friends" and they end up discussing Dalinar and as to whether he should abdicate in favor of Adolin. This got too personal for him and he rapidly was uncomfortable with the topic at hand, to the point where he got up and left, abruptly. Very typical E-feeler reaction. As a E-feeler myself, I have stopped counting the times where I have done the exact same thing: isolate myself and move away from unsettling conversation (more like runaway in my case ). A peculiar reaction for someone who loves human contact, but a true one. On the other hand, introverted people may not seek large groups of people, but they tend to prefer deep conversations with their closed-ones. Another sign Adolin indeed is an extroverted person, but he is a feeler hence the fact he closes himself on people despite enjoying their company.

 

E-thinker are different beasts. I do think they are the portrayal of what people imagine when thinking about extroverted people. Easy-going, not easily flustered, talkative, engaging. E-thinker are not driven by their emotions and thus do not get overwhelmed if their beliefs, preferences, person gets attack. They rationalize the ordeal at hand and move past it.

[maxal]

Hi little wilson, thanks for joining in.

 

Relative to Adolin, Dalinar definitely feels more I to me. However... I took the MBTI test pretending to be Adolin about 2 weeks ago and got like 95% E or thereabouts so almost everyone would be more I than him (I'd be curious to see what others get)

 

It would be nice to see more discussion on Dalinar - in a way he's "officially" the most important person on Roshar right now. I think he's a very interesting character and his decisions will make a big impact so it's a shame that we didn't see too much from him in book 2. And like all the other characters he has his skills, flaws and particular characteristics. It will be interesting to see how those develop - it's quite fascinating to see a 50-something warlord realise that his entire approach for much of his life has been plain wrong! I'm also really curious to find out just what Bondsmiths can do. I'll see what I can do to gather my thoughts.

 

I agree about Dalinar. However, in order to link Andrew, yours, mine and Wilson thoughts, I would like to point out it is possible for people to change as they aged. Some people can go from extroverted to introverted and the opposite. Of course, in these cases, the individual probably was a mild E or a mild I to start with. One colleague of mine took the MBTI test, in his late teens and got INTJ. Now in his mid-twenties, he got ESTJ... He has evolved as he aged. In his case, I do think the engineering school environment developed his INTJ side whereas the work environment tip him over the edge. However, he was rather mild in all criteria save the J.

 

Now back to Dalinar... I do think younger Dalinar and older Dalinar were not the same type of person. War and conquest called young Dalinar to be within a given type, whereas the Way of Kings and his new resolved made him tip over another type. Nowadays Dalinar probably is a low I, as seen by his complete rejection, without guilt, of social life, going as far as imposing his restrictions on his E-type son. Bad parental call, Dalinar.

 

Another clue Adolin is a E: desire to belong, to fit in, to be part of the crowd, which is very typical of E-types. In WoK, he angst because he could not wear fashionable clothes, like every other young men, he couldn't drink, like every other young men. He even went as far as begging his father to allow him to drink, just this once. An I-type, such as Renarin, would not have cared so much about the restrictions.

 

As for Bondsmiths powers... I saw a WoB recently stating we would not see much of Cohesion and Tension until the second arc because the characters using them would not be featured until then or something along those lines... I dunno what it means about Dalinar as he is a Bondsmith and Bondsmith uses Tension....

 

 

Regarding the discussion on Adolin: I don't see that scene as being indicative of him being a masquerading I, more like a fish that finally found water as it were. To continue my line of thinking from my previous post: There's been lots of discussion about Adolin's problems with girlfriends and it seems to be generally assumed that it shows a flaw or fault in Adolin. Yet... we know Alethi society as a whole has deep flaws. We don't consider Jasnah to be flawed for struggling to find Lighteyed girls who are worth taking on as wards (picky maybe, but not flawed). Obviously they're looking for different things in Lighteyed girls... but it may be a surprising valid comparison. The crucial difference of course is that Jasnah knows for sure what she is looking for and knows how to evaluate prospective wards. Adolin doesn't know, consciously at least, so he's confused.

 

I do think Adolin has a part of responsibilities in his failed relationships in the sense he kept messing it up, eying others girls, double booking date and such mishaps. I also think younger Adolin was rather happy courting and dating whereas older Adolin actually starts to feel lonely. In other words, he's growing up, but he does not have the tool-set to help him figure it out. Alethi are a manipulative lot who sees unions as power struggles and most women seemed to be a copy of each others, much like the young men. It explains how someone like Renarin feels so ill-placed in this uniformed society and why Adolin fails to find a girl to love, mostly because none of them actually wants to be loved or cares to be. Makes you wonder where are the romantics in Roshar...

 

Jasnah is a very cerebral person whom, I believe, have long since determined what she wanted. She also has the advantage of being 12 years older... The twenties are an amazing period of time for finding oneself and growing. Jasnah has had time to figure it out. She's a mid-thirty women, the glorious decade for women, the one where we are still young while being more mature. Adolin is 22-23 (never sure about his age), an age where young people barely start to get to know themselves, especially young men. Everyone always talks about the teenage years, but the early twenties often are much harder as you make your first step into the world as a full fledged adult. Most of Adolin's persona has been tight to Dalinar's: he does what his father says, thinks what his father thinks and in the advent he doesn't, he gets anxious. In other words, he has not grown yet. Sometimes I wonder if he has not skip the teenage rebellion years Anyway, he does not know what he wants, what he needs, how to find it and more importantly how to keep it, so he is relief to rely on the grown-ups around him, mainly his father and his aunt, to do it for him.

 

It would be interesting to read 20 years old Jasnah.... We could appreciate the growth she most likely had in the last decade or so.

 

 

 

 

Here's what could be going on: Unlike almost all his peers, Adolin has been raised in a decent household and has proper working relationships with his family. He thinks he's happy with Alethi society (and is trying to encourage Dalinar to be more Alethi-like for much of tWoK) but he's actually not happy with the Alethi way and by WoR he's come to realise this. He still hasn't realised what went "wrong" with all his girlfriends but maybe his subconscious has been warning him the whole time. ie his "flaw" is to want a relationship with a proper human being.

 

It would be interesting if Dalinar went through something similar: his wife wasn't Alethi either (Kaladin wonders if she was from Rira, which is NW from the Purelake).

 

I suspect we might dig deeper into the darker side of Alethi society sooner or later. If Dalinar is really going to be able to unite people I think he'll need to fix some of the bigger flaws, such as slavery.

 

I have wonder as to how decent the Kohlin household actually was.... If you look back in time, Dalinar and Galivar conquered Alethkar while Adolin/Renarin were a children...... I'd wager Dalinar was not often home... Probably the kind of father to pop back every few months, bringing out tales of faraway battlefields (well faraway in a child's perspective) to his wild eyes little boy who probably drank on his every words, thus reinforcing the hero-worshiping relationship Adolin developed with his father. His father probably was this warrior to come home every now and then, tall, strong, powerful. It is clear from the books Adolin does not know much about the Blackthorn or he does not know the truth: he knows the tales he was told, stories made for a child, without the grim parts. 

 

To reinforce my points, I'd add the fact there are only two Kohlin kids. Why only two? Dalinar and Shshshsh had Adolin, probably 9 months after the wedding night and Renarin about 3-4 years after. Then nothing. For a union between people loving each other, the absence of other children is puzzling, but easily explained by the fact Dalinar was not home enough to shire another one. Or so id my theory. It is up for grab

 

How decent does an absent father makes a household? And what about when Shshshsh died? What happened to the boys? Did Dalinar drag them with him on the battle field or did he left them to the care of tutors? He took them with him to the Shattered Plains, but Adolin was an adult (16 years old are considered adults in their world) then. I wonder about before.

 

As for Adolin being happy with the Alethi society, I do not think he is, but he had no reasons to be until Sadeas's betrayal. Adolin has a strong desire to belong, to fit which is why he antagonized so much on Dalinar rejecting the Alethi ways: it isolate him from his peers, a tragedy for someone like him.

 

As for Dalinar, I believe it is stated he did a trip to the West as a young man. I suspect this trip happened after Galivar and Navani's wedding... I also suspect he met his wife to be during this trip. It could be he was seduced by a foreigner woman and his son is following the same pattern.

 

I am not sure of Dalinar is the one to truly fix the flaws of Alethi.... He is too much of a tyrant to be benevolent...

[kari-no-sugata]

Hi maxal, thanks again for the interesting commentary. I just finished a nice long bath and managed to re-read a chunk of Dalinar chapters (oh for a water-proof e-reader) and caught your post just before going to bed.

 

One quick correction: I said Adolin thinks he's happy with Alethi society but he actually isn't (and that's precisely why he's having problems)

 

A quick thought on Dalinar: Personally, I think he's being too benevolent much of the time and I suspect he's over-compensating for his tyrant days. Blackthorn Dalinar is not the solution but neither is kid-gloves Dalinar (I'm thinking in particular of Sadeas and Amaram)

 

And one final thing I've been wanting to throw out for a while: this is a series where lots of characters have various major "issues" and some are managing better than others. I suspect that Elhokar falls into this category - except he became king well before he was ready. I think he's trying to be something he's not while not having the "luxury" of fading into the background to figure himself out in a low-stakes environment. He feels overdue some proper character development (though whether that'll be a big time fail or turning his life around is another matter). Feel free to ignore if you don't want to discuss him

[maxal]

Hi maxal, thanks again for the interesting commentary. I just finished a nice long bath and managed to re-read a chunk of Dalinar chapters (oh for a water-proof e-reader) and caught your post just before going to bed.

 

Well, I get carried away at times It is my ESFJ side

 

 

 

One quick correction: I said Adolin thinks he's happy with Alethi society but he actually isn't (and that's precisely why he's having problems)

 

Yes, I agree about this statement. He wants to be happy in his society because disliking it would imply ostracizing himself from his peers. Up until Sadeas's betrayal, he was not ready to consider this and even then, having Jakamav refuse to have a drink with him hurt him more than any physical blow he's had on the battle field... He was therefore not ready to criticize the Alethi society, but at the same time, he feels a growing uneasiness at watching Sadeas eloping justice. A man can slaughtered 6000 other men and be welcome back with open arms, as long as his hand was not the one holding the knife and yet, open threat are seen as a sign of treason... I'd wager coming in terms with all this will be part of Adolin's growth arc in book 3.

 

 

A quick thought on Dalinar: Personally, I think he's being too benevolent much of the time and I suspect he's over-compensating for his tyrant days. Blackthorn Dalinar is not the solution but neither is kid-gloves Dalinar (I'm thinking in particular of Sadeas and Amaram)

 

The problem with Dalinar is not he is incapable of being benevolent, it is he wants things to go his way. He does not compromised. If he feels he knows the right course of action, he will refuse every counsel and follow through. A grave mistake as his blind trust cost the life of many men.... He strongly believed he needed to trust Sadeas and nothing would steer him away from this course of thinking, not even his son's warnings. In this way, he is a tyrant, not because he tortures people, but because he refuses to let things go any other way than his.

 

 

 

And one final thing I've been wanting to throw out for a while: this is a series where lots of characters have various major "issues" and some are managing better than others. I suspect that Elhokar falls into this category - except he became king well before he was ready. I think he's trying to be something he's not while not having the "luxury" of fading into the background to figure himself out in a low-stakes environment. He feels overdue some proper character development (though whether that'll be a big time fail or turning his life around is another matter). Feel free to ignore if you don't want to discuss him

 

I warn you in advance... I do not like Elhokar In fact, I tend to classify him within the evil guys    I see little redeeming quality in him and have no desire to see him grow as a person I am strongly, negatively biased towards him I know, this sounds harsh, but I have little compassion for him. I understand he was put into a position of high responsibility at a young age. I do not fault him for his past mistakes such trusting a bad adviser and then trying to be compassionate (Roshone) in punishing him. However, I do fault him for the bravado show he pulled of in front of the chasmfield. In order to be seen as a glorious king, he caused the death of 50 men. Had he retired when asked, the causalities would have been less, but no, Elhokar needed to be seen as strong, so he kept on performing   I also severely judge him for falling at following through with a plan agreed in advanced simply because a darkeyed made an unseemly request (4 on 1 duel and Kaladin). These cannot be linked to inexperience as Elhokar did not made the mistake of youth, he made the mistake of being a pompous foul who's there for the show more than the task at end Sorry for the last bit, I warn you I do not like him

 

In terms of MBTI, I do think he is a ESFP, a performer. Clearly, he is an E-feeler, like Adolin, but without the caring/loving personality his cousin inherited. When Adolin does not care about being the center of attention, Elhokar revels in it and many of his mistakes are made because he aimed for the show as opposed to the result. He wants to be seen as a good king, he therefore tries to project this image, but fails to understand the results of his action will determine his worth, not his behavior while making them. He is nearing his thirtieth year of age, I feel the concept of youth does not apply to him anymore. He has had 6 years to learn to be a decent king and yet he still resorts in pulling in tantrums and anger displays to be seen as competent.

 

He does not strike me as the organized type, hence the P.

[kari-no-sugata]

If we consider the current Roshar to how it used to be in the Silver Kingdoms Epoch, it's much more divided now. There used to be 10 kingdoms who were further united by Urithiru but most of those kingdoms have splintered apart - there seems to be around 20 now. Even the most powerful kingdom (Alethkar) is only vaguely united and that is more recent. Apparently Jah Keved is not much different. If we consider Jasnah's historical summary (chapter 29 of tWoK) then things are getting worse, not better. Seems that though technology and science are progressing other aspects of humanity are regressing. I strongly suspect this is due to Odium's long-term plan via the Unnmade and maybe others.

Bondsmiths: Dalinar's place in the world

The following is highly speculative...

It may be that the requirements for being able to become a Bondsmith are as follows: someone who can lead a huge army well but also truly care for each individual so as to keep losses to the minimum, someone who can lead without using fear or other negative methods, someone who truly would not make anyone do anything that they would not be willing to do themselves, someone who will wage war for a higher purpose and never for personal motives. Someone who can lead the world against Odium's forces and win.

Essentially, Dalinar has to unite the world, put it on a war-footing and survive against an entity that fights by enhancing humanity's dark side. If this line of thinking is correct then Taravangian's current approach is flawed because he is using Odium style tactics - though if he stops seeing his touchy-feely side as a curse and abandons the Diagram's plan then maybe he could become a Bondsmith too. This near impossible balancing act of waging war effectively while strongly avoiding the dark arts of war is perhaps what makes Bondsmiths fundamentally rare. If we consider how Dalinar has run the Kholin army, he's basically on the right track: they are highly disciplined, have high morale, they are effective in battle, are not willing to waste lives and Dalinar leads from the front.

I wonder if the modern Vorin religion grew out of a more secular system that aimed to give everyone a sense of purpose, of being part of a huge joint effort, that encouraged everyone to improve themselves...? I also wonder if Nohadon was not just a Bondsmith but the first Bondsmith - that Honor saw what he did and approved so much he ordered the Stormfather to bond Nohadon and created the order of Bondsmiths.

Anyway.... if the above view of Bondsmiths is correct (and to repeat, this is just speculative) then it's no wonder they have the divine attributes of "pious" and "guiding" - they need exhort humanity to be better and to lead by example. Dalinar is probably going to become more and more pious as his responsibilities increase. I also expect him to welcome any suggestions or examples of how humanity could be better or used to be better - eg the old Alethi Codes of War, the in-world book The Way of Kings. He needs to be open to many opinions and viewpoints and then determine what's best. He also needs to be benevolent, to forgive mistakes and crimes, to be the first to reach out and to trust others, to put aside personal enmity, to be balanced and fair.

What does this mean for MBTI? I don't think there's necessarily one particular type that's more suited for Bondsmiths than others. Actually, I feel that as they progress Bondsmiths might become MBTI-neutral as it were. At the least, they probably need to avoid extremes - I think they need to find the right balance and try to get the best of both worlds. I can't really justify this line of reasoning but somehow it feels right.

This is far easier said than done. It's one thing to be trusting but if people expect you to be blindly trusting then they will take advantage of you. Yet if you're obviously keeping watch on allies or potential allies then that can destabilise trust. So for example, though I'm sure Shallan would be more than capable of infiltrating an ally or potential ally to sniff out possible misdeeds I suspect that Dalinar would never ask her to actually spy - though he probably wouldn't exactly ban her either.

Things get sticker with crimes and punishment. When Shallan first meets Dalinar and raises the issue of the deserters she brought with her, Dalinar is readily willing to pardon them and says it always feels like a waste to hang soldiers. I think that's generally a fine approach for what's coming... except that it would probably be smart to check first what actual crimes they have supposedly committed and so on. In a Desolation, people will be under heavy strain and quickly resorting to capital punishment (ie fear) is not going to improve morale. Better to keep as many soldiers alive if you can going by how devastating Desolations can be. But going too far and being too benevolent will cause other problems.

This is in particular where I think he went wrong with Sadeas and Amaram. The situation with Sadeas was very delicate because Dalinar could have triggered a civil war if he moved too strongly against Sadeas. Yet from a reader's point of view, Sadeas is pretty much a traitor to mankind, he was promoting Odium's goals and he was too far gone to save. Dalinar never actually tries to punish Sadeas himself and instead takes a slow round-about method. I think the problem Dalinar has here is he knows he did much the same as Sadeas in the past, that he is unsure of himself and never fully let go of his friendship with Sadeas - this makes him hesitant (opposite error compared to the deserters where he was too quick to decide). Though Dalinar had few options I still think he treated Sadeas with kid-gloves and failed in "strength before weakness".

Could he himself have done more? Yes and not only that we are given an example in the book - Shallan's plan to use the King's Boon and trap Sadeas. Dalinar can hardly claim to have forgotten the incident since he raises it in chapter 8 of WoR. He could also have challenged Sadeas directly himself. A big gamble... and Sadeas probably wouldn't have agreed. It would have at least made it clear that Dalinar was not going to tolerate Sadeas's actions and that would have weakened Sadeas.

The way he just lets Amaram go makes little sense, particularly since he's about to embark on a high risk mission. Surprise surprise, Amaram isn't simply going to sit around nicely waiting to be punished.

At this moment in time, most of us are expecting Dalinar to react very poorly to Adolin killing Sadeas. It obviously hasn't happened yet, so I don't want to criticise him for something he may never actually do, but if he does react very strongly a reasonable person might ask why is he being so inconsistent - and being inconsistent is a bad trait for a leader. Such a situation would be very awkward for Dalinar but is also the sort of thing that could help him grow. I think what he'll need to do is realise that he gave Sadeas too much leeway and by doing that it was hard for others to trust Dalinar to deal with Sadeas properly - I doubt Adolin would have lost it against Sadeas if he knew Dalinar was going to deal with him properly and promptly. If things had continued as they had, as I strongly suspect Sadeas would have ordered an assassination on Navani - is that what it would have taken for Dalinar to fully oppose Sadeas?

I don't know what legal options are available but at least from a moral point of view Dalinar will need to retro-actively accept that Sadeas was a traitor to mankind and needed to be punished immediately - without something like that I don't think he'll be able to forgive Adolin. Note, this is not to say that Adolin will escape punishment.

Going back to Bondsmiths in general, what I described above may sound like an impossible task but they have an incredible resource to call upon - the rest of the Knights Radiant. Need to investigate someone's crimes - get a Skybreaker. Need help with research, resources or communications - get a Elsecaller. Need help with morale, diplomacy or counselling - get a Lightweaver. Need help with attack or defence - get one of the more combat orientated orders. And so on. In short to combine the best aspects of all the Radiants together.

[Knotai]

Your mention of the orders brings up an interesting point--what if there are general personality traits similar to MBTI linked to each order, and if a character's order/spren is driven by his/her personality. Each order of Radiants has a unique personality, and we see Brandon's descriptions of each of the orders in the Ars Arcanum, which could help form MBTI characteristics of each of them. Here's a quick summary of what might be deduced for the unique personality of each order. Please correct me if you feel another personality type is better. 

 

Windrunners--Protecting/Leading--ISFJ

Skybreakers--INFJ

Dustbringers--Brave/Obedient--ESFJ

Edgedancers--Loving/Healing--ESFP

Truthwatchers--Learned/Giving--INFP

Lightweavers--Creative/Honest--ISFP

Elsecallers--Wise/Careful--INTJ

Willshapers--Resolute/Builder--INTP

Stonewards--Dependable/Resourceful--ENTP

Bondsmiths--Pious/Guiding--ESTJ

[maxal]

Very nice commentary on Bondsmiths and Dalinar. I feel this is so spot one, I do not have anything to add.

 

Things get sticker with crimes and punishment. When Shallan first meets Dalinar and raises the issue of the deserters she brought with her, Dalinar is readily willing to pardon them and says it always feels like a waste to hang soldiers. I think that's generally a fine approach for what's coming... except that it would probably be smart to check first what actual crimes they have supposedly committed and so on. In a Desolation, people will be under heavy strain and quickly resorting to capital punishment (ie fear) is not going to improve morale. Better to keep as many soldiers alive if you can going by how devastating Desolations can be. But going too far and being too benevolent will cause other problems.

 

Dalinar has an issue with trust: either he trusts too much or not enough. Someone, he took Shallan's word to the boot and pardoned the deserters. This heavily clashed with is previous interaction with Kaladin where he refused to see Amaram as dishonorable.

 

 

This is in particular where I think he went wrong with Sadeas and Amaram. The situation with Sadeas was very delicate because Dalinar could have triggered a civil war if he moved too strongly against Sadeas. Yet from a reader's point of view, Sadeas is pretty much a traitor to mankind, he was promoting Odium's goals and he was too far gone to save. Dalinar never actually tries to punish Sadeas himself and instead takes a slow round-about method. I think the problem Dalinar has here is he knows he did much the same as Sadeas in the past, that he is unsure of himself and never fully let go of his friendship with Sadeas - this makes him hesitant (opposite error compared to the deserters where he was too quick to decide). Though Dalinar had few options I still think he treated Sadeas with kid-gloves and failed in "strength before weakness".

Could he himself have done more? Yes and not only that we are given an example in the book - Shallan's plan to use the King's Boon and trap Sadeas. Dalinar can hardly claim to have forgotten the incident since he raises it in chapter 8 of WoR. He could also have challenged Sadeas directly himself. A big gamble... and Sadeas probably wouldn't have agreed. It would have at least made it clear that Dalinar was not going to tolerate Sadeas's actions and that would have weakened Sadeas.

The way he just lets Amaram go makes little sense, particularly since he's about to embark on a high risk mission. Surprise surprise, Amaram isn't simply going to sit around nicely waiting to be punished.

 

Ah the Sadeas issue... I am glad  you are bringing this one up. Your commentary is, again, spot on. Dalinar refused to trialed and punished Sadeas, instead he hopped for a long-term tactics consisting in positioning his house within a position of power. Since power is seen in shards, he thus decided to steal the other houses shards, to disarm them while setting his house above them. The more powerful house Kohlin will be, the less likely are other houses to move against them.

 

However, he does not go down in the arena himself, despite being considered one of the best swordsman of Alethkar: he sends his son in. His son, whom Elhokar claims is getting better than Galivar and perhaps Dalinar, but who still has to prove himself in the dueling ground. As Relis put it, he's had only a few meaningful duels on his track list... Strange strategy to put the whole plan on the head of his son. Adolin treated it as if it were only but one phase of the plan, but we never saw Dalinar take any other actions.

 

Adolin comments on few occasions how he cannot challenge Sadeas himself because he ranked too high, but no doubt Dalinar could and would Sadeas have truly refused to duel Dalinar? I doubt so. You make good point in pointing out the king's boon trapping idea Shallan brought forward as to why didn't Dalinar think of it himself?

 

As for Amaram, I think he let him go because there is nothing he could do in the present time. You don't imprison shardbearers: you execute them, simply. I guess we are going to have to wait and see where the Amaram plot brings us.

 

 

At this moment in time, most of us are expecting Dalinar to react very poorly to Adolin killing Sadeas. It obviously hasn't happened yet, so I don't want to criticise him for something he may never actually do, but if he does react very strongly a reasonable person might ask why is he being so inconsistent - and being inconsistent is a bad trait for a leader. Such a situation would be very awkward for Dalinar but is also the sort of thing that could help him grow. I think what he'll need to do is realise that he gave Sadeas too much leeway and by doing that it was hard for others to trust Dalinar to deal with Sadeas properly - I doubt Adolin would have lost it against Sadeas if he knew Dalinar was going to deal with him properly and promptly. If things had continued as they had, as I strongly suspect Sadeas would have ordered an assassination on Navani - is that what it would have taken for Dalinar to fully oppose Sadeas?

I don't know what legal options are available but at least from a moral point of view Dalinar will need to retro-actively accept that Sadeas was a traitor to mankind and needed to be punished immediately - without something like that I don't think he'll be able to forgive Adolin. Note, this is not to say that Adolin will escape punishment.

 

There are many things at stake when it comes to how Dalinar will react to Sadeas's murder. His reaction will not, cannot, be entirely unemotional. We must not neglect one important fact: Adolin is his son, his golden boy, his heir, the one he is so proud of. Because it is Adolin the culprit, I do expect Dalinar's reaction to be worst then if it had been Kaladin or even Renarin or any other soldiers. Had it been anyone else, I do think Dalinar would have the tendency to be more forgiving, more understanding, but with his eldest, he won't. Knifing Sadeas is too reminiscent of his time as a Blackthorn and Dalinar has raised his son to be everything but the Blackthorn. Throughout both books, we also see how different Dalinar is when it comes to Adolin. With Elhokar and to a lesser extend Kaladin, he is forgiving. With Renarin, he is nothing more than supportive, he hardly scolds him for putting himself in danger, he gives him precious shards even though the boy has shown no capacity to yield them appropriately.  With Adolin, he is different.... Adolin is not allowed mistake, Adolin does not get the all-forgiving treatment Elhokar keeps receiving. Adolin has to take on responsibility, responsibility Dalinar does not even ask Elhokar, the king, to take on. Overall, when it comes to his eldest, Dalinar is harder and expects just more. His deception will be great, hence his predicted poor reaction and his inconsistency. I do think he'll react inconsistently because he will be too emotionally involved with the culprit to see reason.

 

Dalinar has to learn to let go and that to lead also means to guide and to guide means to help those who failed to see. In the past, Dalinar has always needed strong examples to set his path. He needed Galivar's death to change his ways. It could be he would have needed Navani's death to truly see Sadeas as someone needing to be dealt with, now. What is he going to need to be able to forgive his son? His death? Would finding his son in a pool of blood be sufficient for him to finally admit he has gone too hard? I am afraid he won't bulge until such thing happens.

 

 

Going back to Bondsmiths in general, what I described above may sound like an impossible task but they have an incredible resource to call upon - the rest of the Knights Radiant. Need to investigate someone's crimes - get a Skybreaker. Need help with research, resources or communications - get a Elsecaller. Need help with morale, diplomacy or counselling - get a Lightweaver. Need help with attack or defence - get one of the more combat orientated orders. And so on. In short to combine the best aspects of all the Radiants together.

 

I agree. One Radiant is not enough. You need all 10 orders.

[maxal]

Your mention of the orders brings up an interesting point--what if there are general personality traits similar to MBTI linked to each order, and if a character's order/spren is driven by his/her personality. Each order of Radiants has a unique personality, and we see Brandon's descriptions of each of the orders in the Ars Arcanum, which could help form MBTI characteristics of each of them. Here's a quick summary of what might be deduced for the unique personality of each order. Please correct me if you feel another personality type is better. 

 

Windrunners--Protecting/Leading--ISFJ

Skybreakers--INFJ

Dustbringers--Brave/Obedient--ESFJ

Edgedancers--Loving/Healing--ESFP

Truthwatchers--Learned/Giving--INFP

Lightweavers--Creative/Honest--ISFP

Elsecallers--Wise/Careful--INTJ

Willshapers--Resolute/Builder--INTP

Stonewards--Dependable/Resourceful--ENTP

Bondsmiths--Pious/Guiding--ESTJ

 

Interesting take, but I hardly doubt we would link one MBTI type to one order, in the same way we cannot link one type to a given career. If take engineering for instance, my own career choice, you may have MBTI types said to have a greatest affinity with it, but in truth you will find individuals within all types. I was bold enough as to have my whole department take the test. It is astonishing to see the differencse. Of course, we did end up having a few INTJ and a few ESTJ, typical engineers MBTI types, but we also had ISFP and ESFJ (myself), types not traditionally linked to this profession... What does this tell us? That each person is unique and its type only reflects how this specific person process information in the real world, it does not define its interests.

 

I therefore doubt all members of a given order would all come from the same MBTI type. There may be predominant types within the orders, such as there are predominant types within engineers (just as I am sure there are in other careers), but I do think we will end up finding a nice variety of Radiants.

 

For instances, you link INTJ with the Elsecallers and INFP with the Truthwatcher. Whereas I do tend to put Jasnah as a INTJ, I do put Renarin as one as well. You put the ESFJ with the Dustbringers and the ESFP with the Edgedancers, which probably is not a bad choice, but Adolin is an ESFJ and may just become an Edgedancer. I also put Elhokar as a ESFP and most people think he'll end up a Lightweaver. Now this may not be a theory I endorse, but I do have to mention it as it does have supporters. You also put Windrunners as ISFJ whereas I put Kaladin as a ISTP.

 

I also notice you linked many more I-types to orders than E-types.... I doubt the majority of Radiants are introverted. I would think they would follow the normal population distribution and be more evenly balanced. I also do not see why a Windrunners would predominantly be I-types... They are said to be leaders and leaders often are E-types.

 

Anyway, interesting discussion.

[kari-no-sugata]

Very nice commentary on Bondsmiths and Dalinar. I feel this is so spot one, I do not have anything to add.

Thanks. I was very happy with how my ideas came out. Now, whether they're in any way accurate is another matter - I'm almost happier to be wrong because it means I learn something new and am surprised.

 

There are many things at stake when it comes to how Dalinar will react to Sadeas's murder. His reaction will not, cannot, be entirely unemotional. We must not neglect one important fact: Adolin is his son, his golden boy, his heir, the one he is so proud of. Because it is Adolin the culprit, I do expect Dalinar's reaction to be worst then if it had been Kaladin or even Renarin or any other soldiers. Had it been anyone else, I do think Dalinar would have the tendency to be more forgiving, more understanding, but with his eldest, he won't. Knifing Sadeas is too reminiscent of his time as a Blackthorn and Dalinar has raised his son to be everything but the Blackthorn. Throughout both books, we also see how different Dalinar is when it comes to Adolin. With Elhokar and to a lesser extend Kaladin, he is forgiving. With Renarin, he is nothing more than supportive, he hardly scolds him for putting himself in danger, he gives him precious shards even though the boy has shown no capacity to yield them appropriately. With Adolin, he is different.... Adolin is not allowed mistake, Adolin does not get the all-forgiving treatment Elhokar keeps receiving. Adolin has to take on responsibility, responsibility Dalinar does not even ask Elhokar, the king, to take on. Overall, when it comes to his eldest, Dalinar is harder and expects just more. His deception will be great, hence his predicted poor reaction and his inconsistency. I do think he'll react inconsistently because he will be too emotionally involved with the culprit to see reason.

I know, I know. You expect this, I expect this, everyone expects this... but it does feel a little unfair to criticise him for being unfair before it's actually happened Anyway... this does lead me to my promised thoughts on how I think Adolin's situation could develop in SA3.

 

How to break Adolin Kholin

Hands up if you would willingly experience Kaladin or Shallan's life it would mean possibly gaining the magic powers they have? I don't think I would take it up if offered. Their lives are pretty damnation horrible. They were broken. However, I don't think this is what we should expect to be typical of Radiants - I suspect that their experiences are more extreme than most. There's various hints from Dalinar, Jasnah and Lift that they've been through very painful experiences. Renarin is (so far) the odd-one-out, which is rather typical of him since he's always been the "misfit". We'll probably have to wait until his book to really understand what he went through and why but there's some good hints scattered around.

From a story narrative point of view then, it would be "unfair" if Adolin gets to be a Radiant without obviously going through significant suffering. (This is not to say that Adolin hasn't suffered until now). Also, from a technical point of view it seems he'll have to be "broken" enough to be able to form an enduring spren bond.

In other words, for Adolin to be able to revive the spren in his Shardblade he'll have to be broken first.

So, how? While I'm sure that physically torturing him would work I doubt we'll get that - instead it'll be mental torture. Like, remember when Kaladin is imprisoned in WoR and he's going increasingly dark because of that? That was quite chilling to read but what I suspect is coming Adolin's way will be far worse and for far longer.

So... how? I think there's already a good hint in WoR when Jakamav turns out to not just be a fair-weather friend but someone who would turn against him. Imagine if Dalinar... and Renarin... and Navani... and Shallan all turn against him! (At least, from his point of view and I imagine that Kaladin will be away). Imagine if he's imprisoned. Cut off from everyone and everything. Alone. Abandoned. With nobody to talk to except his Shardblade.

To stress again, I'm not saying that the others really would turn against him, just that things could develop in such a way that he could believe it. For example, maybe Renarin's Truthwatcher ability accidentally leads to him revealing Adolin to be the culprit. Maybe Dalinar himself decides to press charges against Adolin. With Shallan there's a huge range of possibilities.

 

[maxal]

Thanks. I was very happy with how my ideas came out. Now, whether they're in any way accurate is another matter - I'm almost happier to be wrong because it means I learn something new and am surprised.

 

 

It was very good. It must have taken you some time to write. Accurate or not, I thought it was a good analysis. I suspect some of it will end up being true.

 

 

I know, I know. You expect this, I expect this, everyone expects this... but it does feel a little unfair to criticise him for being unfair before it's actually happened Anyway... this does lead me to my promised thoughts on how I think Adolin's situation could develop in SA3.

 

Well.... Based on the characters at end, their relationships and their personality, I would be extremely surprised to see it go any other way. I do agree I am being unfair in criticizing Dalinar for coming down hard on Adolin when he has yet to do so.

 

 

How to break Adolin Kholin

 

Now, you have my undying attention    I will admit I have given this an unseemly amount of thoughts ever since finishing WoR

 

 

Hands up if you would willingly experience Kaladin or Shallan's life it would mean possibly gaining the magic powers they have? I don't think I would take it up if offered. Their lives are pretty damnation horrible. They were broken. However, I don't think this is what we should expect to be typical of Radiants - I suspect that their experiences are more extreme than most. There's various hints from Dalinar, Jasnah and Lift that they've been through very painful experiences. Renarin is (so far) the odd-one-out, which is rather typical of him since he's always been the "misfit". We'll probably have to wait until his book to really understand what he went through and why but there's some good hints scattered around.

 

Agree. I would never switch life with Kaladin or Shallan. All Radiants have been broken in horrible ways, though I suspect not all stories will be as heartbroken as Kaladin/Shallan.

 

 

From a story narrative point of view then, it would be "unfair" if Adolin gets to be a Radiant without obviously going through significant suffering. (This is not to say that Adolin hasn't suffered until now). Also, from a technical point of view it seems he'll have to be "broken" enough to be able to form an enduring spren bond.

In other words, for Adolin to be able to revive the spren in his Shardblade he'll have to be broken first.

 

Agree. I have long since believe the next book will feature Adolin's fall from grace.

 

 

So, how? While I'm sure that physically torturing him would work I doubt we'll get that - instead it'll be mental torture. Like, remember when Kaladin is imprisoned in WoR and he's going increasingly dark because of that? That was quite chilling to read but what I suspect is coming Adolin's way will be far worse and for far longer.

So... how? I think there's already a good hint in WoR when Jakamav turns out to not just be a fair-weather friend but someone who would turn against him. Imagine if Dalinar... and Renarin... and Navani... and Shallan all turn against him! (At least, from his point of view and I imagine that Kaladin will be away). Imagine if he's imprisoned. Cut off from everyone and everything. Alone. Abandoned. With nobody to talk to except his Shardblade.

To stress again, I'm not saying that the others really would turn against him, just that things could develop in such a way that he could believe it. For example, maybe Renarin's Truthwatcher ability accidentally leads to him revealing Adolin to be the culprit. Maybe Dalinar himself decides to press charges against Adolin. With Shallan there's a huge range of possibilities.

 

 

I also doubt Dalinar would ever condone any physical harm towards any of his sons, but he'll dismiss psychological trouble. In fact, if it ever gets physical, I strongly suspect the Blackthorn would emerge in the split of a second to slay whoever lays hand in his offspring.

 

My thoughts have always been that Adolin will end up losing everything he holds dear. He was presented to us as the knight in shining armor on his white stallion, but by the end of WoR, the horse dies. A first sign. I do think Dalinar will go as far as to strip his son of his shards. I am unsure about imprisonment, especially with him keeping his Blade, but I do believe Adolin will end up thinking everyone he cares for do not care about him anymore, worst that they do not love him.

 

As a result, he'll end up stepping a foot into a downward spiral. The more he'll feel he has lost not just the trust, but the love of his family, especially his father, he'll strive to do nothing else then to gain it back. Providing he is not imprisoned nor banished for his actions, he'll end up working harder than ever in order to regain with he craves for: care. That's the spiral. He'll work hard in order to please his father, for love, but Dalinar's anger won't sooth this easily, so he'll work even harder. In other words, he'll burn himself down while his whole world crumbles around him.

 

I have always thought Dalinar will push his son to the edge of the cliff, Renarin and Shallan will both inadvertently make him trip and nobody will notice he is falling until he hits the ground.

[kari-no-sugata]

My thoughts have always been that Adolin will end up losing everything he holds dear. He was presented to us as the knight in shining armor on his white stallion, but by the end of WoR, the horse dies. A first sign. I do think Dalinar will go as far as to strip his son of his shards. I am unsure about imprisonment, especially with him keeping his Blade, but I do believe Adolin will end up thinking everyone he cares for do not care about him anymore, worst that they do not love him.

 

As a result, he'll end up stepping a foot into a downward spiral. The more he'll feel he has lost not just the trust, but the love of his family, especially his father, he'll strive to do nothing else then to gain it back. Providing he is not imprisoned nor banished for his actions, he'll end up working harder than ever in order to regain with he craves for: care. That's the spiral. He'll work hard in order to please his father, for love, but Dalinar's anger won't sooth this easily, so he'll work even harder. In other words, he'll burn himself down while his whole world crumbles around him.

 

I have always thought Dalinar will push his son to the edge of the cliff, Renarin and Shallan will both inadvertently make him trip and nobody will notice he is falling until he hits the ground.

 

Hmm. Sounds like you're expecting Dalinar to immediately issue a judgement against Adolin without a trial. Am I reading that right?

 

Dalinar planned to hold a trial for Amaram when he got back. Adolin can also demand a trial (even higher level darkeyes can). So unless Adolin completely capitulates I'd expect there to be a trial of some kind. Ialai may be able to demand a formal trial too even if Adolin capitulates - for example, she could allege that Dalinar ordered Adolin to assassinate Sadeas. So the scenario I've been envisioning is that one way or another Adolin is "imprisoned" until the situation is more sorted - ie unless he's willing to abandon everything and run away he has to stay in the same place, probably with some guards permanently assigned both to watch him and protect him against reprisals. So I expect him to technically keep ownership of his Shards until the trial is complete.

 

I'm not actually expecting a heavy legal battle though - more like there'll be a lot of arguments going on behind the scenes until the trial is due to start... and the trial itself may never actually occur. Knowing him, Adolin may eventually demand trial by combat as well - for example, I could see him offering to duel a full Shardbearer with only his Shardblade (Adolin has just the Blade, opponent has both Blade and Plate).

 

 

[maxal]

Hmm. Sounds like you're expecting Dalinar to immediately issue a judgement against Adolin without a trial. Am I reading that right?

 

Yes. I am expecting Adolin to confess to his family and I am expecting the Kohlins to do everything to avoid a public trial. In fact, I expect the truth will come out internally, at first. Nobody else would know but the Kohlins and perhaps the Sadeas, which is why I also expect Dalinar to try to make a deal to spare his son. I also expect him to demand his son to surrender his shards, both as punishment and as protection as you do not imprison a shardbearer: you just execute him. As long as he is a shardbearer, Adolin is in danger, but Dalinar being himself, he won't explain his thoughts and Adolin will not understand his father actually is trying to protect him, despite his obvious anger.

 

With or without a trial, I expect Dalinar to issue his own punishment to his son. He'd probably disinherit him and name Renarin his heir, to Renarin most utmost despair. It could also fuel Renarin's own story arc where he is forced to take on Adolin's former responsibilities with limited success.

 

Dalinar planned to hold a trial for Amaram when he got back. Adolin can also demand a trial (even higher level darkeyes can). So unless Adolin completely capitulates I'd expect there to be a trial of some kind. Ialai may be able to demand a formal trial too even if Adolin capitulates - for example, she could allege that Dalinar ordered Adolin to assassinate Sadeas. So the scenario I've been envisioning is that one way or another Adolin is "imprisoned" until the situation is more sorted - ie unless he's willing to abandon everything and run away he has to stay in the same place, probably with some guards permanently assigned both to watch him and protect him against reprisals. So I expect him to technically keep ownership of his Shards until the trial is complete.

 

Adolin's trial would be a thousand more times more damageable than Amaram's.... I do think both parties will try to quell the issue without having to go through a trial. The Kohlins won't want a trial because the output will most likely be Adolin's execution or banishment and the Sadeas may be goated into dropping the idea of a trial if they get sufficient compensation.... It is why I think it probable Dalinar would try to settle things, behind the scene. I can see him making a deal with Ialai and Amaram... In exchange for them to drop the accusations against Adolin, Kohlin household would give up all of their shards, some land and fully support Amaram's claim to the princedom. Something along those lines. I see the Kohlins giving out a lot to spare Adolin, which would ultimately add to Adolin's misery as he has weaken his family.

 

I am not sure they would put him in prison while he remains the holder of his Blade... Too risky. The Sadeas would never agree to this as he could just cut his way out, even if we both know Adolin would most likely sit in a corner, unmoving for the whole time, is Dalinar ask it. I however doubt it will come to that. If he is imprisoned, it will be after he is forced to surrender his Blade.

 

I can see Adolin falling into the mindset he needs to disappear to protect his family, though I am unsure where this would bring him. Urithiru is surrounded by mountains, he can't just walk away. The only way out if through the Oathgate and he can't open it on his own.

 

 

I'm not actually expecting a heavy legal battle though - more like there'll be a lot of arguments going on behind the scenes until the trial is due to start... and the trial itself may never actually occur. Knowing him, Adolin may eventually demand trial by combat as well - for example, I could see him offering to duel a full Shardbearer with only his Shardblade (Adolin has just the Blade, opponent has both Blade and Plate).

 

Yeah well a heavy legal battle would not be too interesting to read I have been wondering about trial by combat and if such a thing was even possible in Alethkar. Though, based on Adolin's past track record, I doubt they would let him keep his Blade. Most likely, if Adolin demands it, he'll get a duel, but a highly unfair one where he is forced to fight a full shardbearer without having shards himself or something along those lines. Or he is put in the arena against a whitespine with no other weapon than a knife. Or his opponent happens to be the secret holder of the lost Honorblade... Or both parties agree to a duel where the Sadeas can chose their champions and they chose crazy Taln Trial by combat could go many ways... but I don't see Adolin winning it. They'll make sure he'll lose, this time. No free pass, that is unless the said duel ends up fueling his Blade revival process...

 

I have too much imagination This story could go about a thousand ways.

[kari-no-sugata]

Yes. I am expecting Adolin to confess to his family and I am expecting the Kohlins to do everything to avoid a public trial. In fact, I expect the truth will come out internally, at first. Nobody else would know but the Kohlins and perhaps the Sadeas, which is why I also expect Dalinar to try to make a deal to spare his son. I also expect him to demand his son to surrender his shards, both as punishment and as protection as you do not imprison a shardbearer: you just execute him. As long as he is a shardbearer, Adolin is in danger, but Dalinar being himself, he won't explain his thoughts and Adolin will not understand his father actually is trying to protect him, despite his obvious anger.

 

Hmm, interesting. I hadn't thought of the story going down those lines. I realise I also forgot to mention my implicit assumptions in my "how to break Adolin" post.

I don't see Adolin surrendering easily. He's certainly capable of standing up to his father and going by how he thinks of Sadeas through the books he believes he's justified:

A small part of him wished for Sadeas to provoke him, push away his inhibitions, drive him to do something stupid. Killing the man right here, right now, would likely earn Adolin an execution—or at least an exile. It might be worth either punishment.

 

Seems to me like he would view his actions as something like "morally right but illegal". I don't think he'd necessarily fight the "illegal" part but would fight the morals of it. I don't think someone who gave up too easily would be cut out to be a Radiant either.

 

Going back to Dalinar, he's not the top authority when it comes legal matters - though he could theoretically reach a "plea bargain" with Adolin and present it to the king to rubber stamp, if Elhokar refuses then Dalinar has few legal options. Sure he could disinherit Adolin still. More importantly, simply coming to a private arrangement seems to be against the ideals he's just signed up to.

 

Also, if Adolin is going to resurrect the spren in his Blade then I don't see that being possible if he loses it early. What I could see happening is something like this: after many weeks, Adolin eventually wins the moral argument and then loses the legal argument and during this time he has been making progress in waking up his Blade and just when it looks like he might be close to a breakthrough (at least to the readers) he's forced to given up his Blade. So he's forced to break the weak normal Shardbearer bond and the gem in the pommel is broken for good measure. Heartbreaking. Later... the Blade mysteriously vanishes from where it was stored and it turns out that Adolin has a new and improved bond with his Blade

 

I think it would be possible imprison Adolin in such a way that it's acceptable to all - ie if he tries to escape then he automatically gets a death sentence.

 

 

I have too much imagination This story could go about a thousand ways.

 

It's a shame that by itself a healthy imagination isn't enough to become a Lightweaver - so far, they seem to have the most open-ended Surges (make stuff, fake stuff) which makes them highly suited for people with good imagination and problem solving skills.

I've had all sorts of interesting ideas though I don't know where the real limits are. I have way too much fun thinking of all the things Shallan could possibly do...

 

[maxal]

Hmm, interesting. I hadn't thought of the story going down those lines. I realise I also forgot to mention my implicit assumptions in my "how to break Adolin" post.

 

I do not think Adolin left enough clues behind him to have anyone publicly accuse him of being the murderer which is why I am leaning towards Adolin, overridden by guilt, eventually opening up to his family.

 

In one of my possible scenarios, Renarin gets slightly sad and distressed upon thinking Adolin is rejecting him because of his new powers. His brother has grown distant, he is drifting away, evading him and Renarin thinks he is to blame. He even comes to think Adolin has gotten jealous of him. He ends up calling him out for it, but being Renarin is comes out bad. Adolin flips out, realizing he is hurting his brother and end up thinking he is the world most awful big brother. Seeing his brother's reaction, Renarin catch something is wrong, definitely wrong and manages to drag the truth out of him.

 

I have also heard other people theorizing Renarin would get visions of his brother being the culprit. Since I am unsure if his visions are this specific, I am leaning towards him finding out the truth because he is the Truthwatcher. He drags the truth out: it is what he does and Adolin is his brother. He knows him better than anyone else. He has to be the one to figure it out.

 

From there, it is only a step before Dalinar learns the truth and the Kohlin household ends up with a gigantic problem: what to do with Adolin. In part they want to protect him, in other part they are going to be angry and disappointed with him. I guess the truth will eventually become a public matter, but not before the Kohlins have time to draft out a plan.

 

 

I don't see Adolin surrendering easily. He's certainly capable of standing up to his father and going by how he thinks of Sadeas through the books he believes he's justified:

 

Seems to me like he would view his actions as something like "morally right but illegal". I don't think he'd necessarily fight the "illegal" part but would fight the morals of it. I don't think someone who gave up too easily would be cut out to be a Radiant either.

 

I see Adolin doing either two things: entering the shouting match with Dalinar, openly raging against the Way of Kings he hates so much, yelling about how they let the men responsible for the death of 6000 of their men walk free to finally break down and state Sadeas tried to murder Dalinar... The other possible reaction is him cowering in front of Dalinar. Upon knowing he is guilty, he has disappointed his father, he would simply give up and ask for punishment.

 

I think part of his character growth will have to deal with him becoming his own person as opposed to the person Dalinar wanted him to become. His purpose in life is not to absolve Dalinar's past mistakes. In order to grow, one of the things he'll need to do is accept he has killed Sadeas. Accept he has done right. Forgive himself for not living out to Dalinar's insane morality. However, I am unsure if his first reaction will be to defend himself.

 

 

 

Going back to Dalinar, he's not the top authority when it comes legal matters - though he could theoretically reach a "plea bargain" with Adolin and present it to the king to rubber stamp, if Elhokar refuses then Dalinar has few legal options. Sure he could disinherit Adolin still. More importantly, simply coming to a private arrangement seems to be against the ideals he's just signed up to.

 

I have given this some thoughts as well... I have been wondering if Elhokar would range himself behind his cousin or against. I am often assuming he would just go with Dalinar's wishes, but may demand clemency as he once did for Roshone. I may start to like Elhokar if he actually tries to defend Adolin.

 

How does making a private arrangement goes against his ideal? He has sworn to unite and not divide. If he goes too hard on his son, he'll divide his family for a matter of rigid morality. However, if he does nothing, he'll do the same. I think the answer to the dilemma is Dalinar needing to realized his son has done something wrong for the right reason and admit being guiding requires also being forgiving. A private arrangement does seem to offer the best of both worlds: it satisfy the Highprinces the situation was dealt with and it avoids having to break his family by sending his son into exile.

 

I am pretty sure the last thing Dalinar would want is to banish Adolin. He'll want to keep a very close eye on him from now on, not the opposite.

 

 

 

Also, if Adolin is going to resurrect the spren in his Blade then I don't see that being possible if he loses it early. What I could see happening is something like this: after many weeks, Adolin eventually wins the moral argument and then loses the legal argument and during this time he has been making progress in waking up his Blade and just when it looks like he might be close to a breakthrough (at least to the readers) he's forced to given up his Blade. So he's forced to break the weak normal Shardbearer bond and the gem in the pommel is broken for good measure. Heartbreaking. Later... the Blade mysteriously vanishes from where it was stored and it turns out that Adolin has a new and improved bond with his Blade

 

I think it would be possible imprison Adolin in such a way that it's acceptable to all - ie if he tries to escape then he automatically gets a death sentence.

 

I think the contrary. I think he needs to lose the Blade to realize the depth of the attachment he has towards it. As long as he keeps it, their relation will remain platonic, but losing it would trigger many emotions probably required to re-awake a dead Blade. In a way, I am thinking the secret to resurrect a dead Blade is care. Love. They were betrayed. They need to remember they were once loved and cared for, which is why Adolin may succeed. However, simply expressing care and love is not sufficient. I think the proto-Radiant may need to be willing to sacrifice himself for the Blade such as the spren would comprehend the relationship goes both ways. They were killed. Perhaps they need to have someone caring about them so much they end up willing to risk their own life to assert their claim on them. In other words, Blade-less Adolin would eventually go on a crusade to gain his Blade back and manage to re-kink the bond he once had with it, despite having broken it. It is said breaking the stone prevents that, thought it is thought to be an old legend. I think Adolin may prove them wrong by doing it, probably in the mist of a battle going horribly wrong from him. Something like that, but he needs to lose the Blade. I'd be very surprised to be wrong about Adolin losing his shards.

 

As for the breakthrough, I have thought he may finally learn its name minutes before being forced to break the bond.... How about that?

 

Possible, but an escaping shardbearer could wreck havoc. I doubt they would risk it, but I could be wrong.

 

 

 

It's a shame that by itself a healthy imagination isn't enough to become a Lightweaver - so far, they seem to have the most open-ended Surges (make stuff, fake stuff) which makes them highly suited for people with good imagination and problem solving skills.

I've had all sorts of interesting ideas though I don't know where the real limits are. I have way too much fun thinking of all the things Shallan could possibly do...

 

I have thousand of ideas... not all of them are good, most are quite bad actually but some may just be it. I know how you feel though, I have way too much fun thinking of how Adolin's story arc could unfold. So many options.

[Shlee]

For starters, I just stumbled across this thread, and oh my gosh, so much awesomeness! I love character talk and this is awesome. I'm also a bit amused by how much it's gotten derailed into character predictions, but that's even more fun

 

I can't help thinking that after that deep chasm scene between Shallan and Kaladin that Shallan and Adolin's relationship needs some depth, and I am hoping that that is where Adolin's story arc is going. I can easily see him killing Sadeas and the subsequent fallout we're all expecting him to have with his family to push him and Shallan closer as well. I also wouldn't be surprised if we don't have some issues with Shallan's own family, once her brothers find out who really killed both their parents.....  I know it's a bit of a trope, but a Shallan/Adolin vs the world sort of arc would be awesome. Especially because I think both can make the argument that what they did isn't necessarily morally wrong.

 

I also think that Kaladin would be supporting (he's said on multiple occasions that Sadeas needs to go). Even though we're pretty sure he's not going to be in the same place (at least at the beginning of book 3), I can easily see the three of them forming a sort of mutual support group. What I'm curious about is how that reflects on the public perception of all these new Radiants if news gets out. Shallan's killed her parents, Adolin's just murdered Sadeas, if Kaladin supports them, not even taking into account that shash brand of his....well I think they'll have some major PR work to do.

 

I think Dalinar's going to have to make some tough choices about how to unite things. I don't see him totally turning his back on Adolin - there's nothing in the actual codes or in Way of Kings that we've been shown so far that says you can't off a totally evil person. Obviously, a skybreaker wouldn't agree, but Dalinar's a bondsmith and we still know so little about them.

 

And to put in the obligatory something related to the topic, it also amused me that everyone agrees that Jasnah's a strong INTJ, and unsurprisingly so am I. I knew there was a reason I liked her (you know, other than the fact that she thinks exactly like me and every person who's read WoK that knows me makes the comparison!)

Edited February 20, 2015 by Shlee

[maxal]

For starters, I just stumbled across this thread, and oh my gosh, so much awesomeness! I love character talk and this is awesome. I'm also a bit amused by how much it's gotten derailed into character predictions, but that's even more fun

 

Have a seat. Character talk is the best and yeah , of course it derailed Who does not like a good prediction every few weeks? :ph34r:

 

 

 

I can't help thinking that after that deep chasm scene between Shallan and Kaladin that Shallan and Adolin's relationship needs some depth, and I am hoping that that is where Adolin's story arc is going. I can easily see him killing Sadeas and the subsequent fallout we're all expecting him to have with his family to push him and Shallan closer as well. I also wouldn't be surprised if we don't have some issues with Shallan's own family, once her brothers find out who really killed both their parents.....  I know it's a bit of a trope, but a Shallan/Adolin vs the world sort of arc would be awesome. Especially because I think both can make the argument that what they did isn't necessarily morally wrong.

 

My beliefs are the Shallan/Adolin's relationship has not moved to a deep one just yet. Right now, they are both enthralled by each other and are still discovering themselves. Shallan has expressed her desire to make things right with Adolin, hence her decision not to alter her appearances and to try to come out as close to herself as she dares. I have always considered the in depth confession Kaladin and Shallan had with each other was mostly triggered by the circumstances. In other words, put them out of the chasm and they would have never shared the way they did. Kaladin needed this exchange to help him move past his prejudice about lighteyes.

 

I also believe Shallan cannot be entirely honest with Adolin because it would demand a leap of faith she is not ready to do. What if Adolin rejects her once he finds out? She did murder her parents... She must be terrified he'd learn the truth just like Adolin is afraid she won't want him now she ranks higher then he does.

 

Both genuinely seem to want to pursue the relationship. Shallan does care about Adolin, has proven by her reaction to him being a bloody mess at the end of WoR. It was enough to have her forget the unlocking of the oathgate just so she could hold him. That was cute. Adolin obviously is crushing on her and I do expect him to turn into a lovesick puppy at some point

 

However, before a "Shallan/Adolin against the world" story arc could unfold, I think they both need to be honest with each other, admit their faults and accept them. I do think their initial reaction would be to fear their partner would reject them and not understand. I do expect a fallout between the two, but I also expect them to make it up at some point. How all this will play out is very hard to guess, but I do wish for them to get married by the end of the first arc

 

 

I also think that Kaladin would be supporting (he's said on multiple occasions that Sadeas needs to go). Even though we're pretty sure he's not going to be in the same place (at least at the beginning of book 3), I can easily see the three of them forming a sort of mutual support group. What I'm curious about is how that reflects on the public perception of all these new Radiants if news gets out. Shallan's killed her parents, Adolin's just murdered Sadeas, if Kaladin supports them, not even taking into account that shash brand of his....well I think they'll have some major PR work to do.

 

All the Radiants actually had help once they hit rock bottom. Kaladin had Tarah to drag him out of over training. He also had Syl to help him move past his suicidal views. Shallan had Helaran and to a lesser extend Wit to help her move past her dark days. I do think Adolin is going to need a friend in the ordeal he is about to go through. I have been hoping Kaladin would be this friend, the one person to stand behind him, to support him simply because you just don't abandon a friend in need. You do not let a friend crash down: you stand strong and give then a hand if needed.

 

I am expecting the Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin relationship to eventually evolve into a dynamic trio. Adolin and Shallan would be husband and wife, Kaladin and Adolin, best friends and Shallan and Kaladin, surrogate brother and sister. Together, they would wreck havoc, together, they would stand strong. I guess we could add Renarin to the lot, but he always seems like the outsider.

 

As for the Radiants, I expect all of them will end up having a few skeletons in their closet. Jasnah is not the nicest of person either and Dalinar has the most gruesome past.

 

 

 

I think Dalinar's going to have to make some tough choices about how to unite things. I don't see him totally turning his back on Adolin - there's nothing in the actual codes or in Way of Kings that we've been shown so far that says you can't off a totally evil person. Obviously, a skybreaker wouldn't agree, but Dalinar's a bondsmith and we still know so little about them.

 

And to put in the obligatory something related to the topic, it also amused me that everyone agrees that Jasnah's a strong INTJ, and unsurprisingly so am I. I knew there was a reason I liked her (you know, other than the fact that she thinks exactly like me and every person who's read WoK that knows me makes the comparison!)

 

My thoughts have always been that Dalinar would initially go very hard on his son, to the point of obsession which would accelerate Adolin's fall from grace. However, after some denouement, he'll soften. Since Dalinar seemed to need strong examples to point him the way: I have thus always thought Adolin would eventually end pretty badly injured (or dead and perhaps we'll see Renarin use Progression). Probably while trying to do "something reckless and stupid" to regain Dalinar's trust. Something in the ordeal would help Dalinar figure out his third oath, something about being guiding or forgiving to those who missteps. Anyway, these are just wild predictions, may or may not happen. I was just thinking what it would take for Dalinar to let go of his anger and deception towards his son's actions. Seeing how Dalinar goes about things at the moment, something drastic would be required.

 

Well, I can really not picture Jasnah as anything else than an INTJ. Glad to see an actually INTJ agrees. I have lots of fun teasing my skeptical INTJ work colleagues

[kari-no-sugata]

Some older stuff I never got time to reply to...
 

I do not see her in Mat though... Mat was always evading his responsibilities, always claiming he did not care, only to end up living up to them. However, I do not see the level of complain Mat offered us in Shallan. Shallan knows she has responsibilities, she is not evading them: she is evading herself. I do agree it would be sad to see Shallan lose her childish glee, just as I do not want Adolin to lose his.

Hmm, though you posted in this old topic from when Brandon visited London did you not see my reply in it?
 

On Shallan's origins as a character: mostly derived from a character in Dragonsteel (I'm guessing the woman who turns up at the end of the "Liar of Partinel" book fragment that's been posted on his website) and Mat Cauthon. Specifically mentioned that she has issues with authority figures.

The "Liar of Partinel" book fragment I'm referring to can be found on the downloads from this page:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/691-verified-locations-for-unreleased-bookschapters-and-sample-chapters-of-published-books/

Specifically: http://www.brandonsanderson.com/drafts/warbreaker/LiarPt12.doc

Not that we see much of her in the fragment above but Yunmi is a short-ish "bubbly" red-head with a symbiotic entity a little bit like Pattern... and seems to have experienced some quite painful events in her past.

I wasn't surprised that Shallan has a bit of Mat in her origins as a character, since I'd noticed a number of similarities, though this could have been a co-incidence. This is not to say that they are similar overall or that because Mat does certain things then we should expect Shallan to do them too - just that they have some shared attributes.

To me, the most noticeable thing was Shallan's promise to the deserters to get them clemency: she's very serious about completing her promise. Unlike in WoT we don't have other characters to confirm this, rather we have to look at Shallan's behaviour.

Some other things they both have: a curious, mischievous, optimistic nature - though to different degrees and in different ways. Tendency for their mouth to get them into trouble... and out, often by being "economical with the truth". Has own particular approach to life though can be quite flexible in partially adapting to new situations. Does not respond well to orders and generally does not show automatic respect to their "betters". Notably unreliable narrator, though in quite different ways. Not the most dependable but somehow trustworthy. Can give impression of being a lightweight or shallow but is actually quite bit more complex and tends to be underestimated. Rarely aggressive and prefers to avoid combat.

I'm sure I could list quite a number of differences too of course! Actually, though we only see her a bit, Yunmi's personality feels closer to Shallan than Mat's... though both seem more extrovert than her... and both have combat training while Shallan is more of a "the pen is mightier than the sword" type (and I hope she stays that way). It's also hard comparing characters between series since they change over time - Mat isn't particularly interesting when we first meet him while Shallan has already been through a great deal.

Edited February 26, 2015 by kari-no-sugata

[maxal]

Some older stuff I never got time to reply to...

 

Hmm, though you posted in this old topic from when Brandon visited London did you not see my reply in it?

 

Hmmm, I did see your reply at the time, but I seem to have forgotten about it My apologies.

 

 

I wasn't surprised that Shallan has a bit of Mat in her origins as a character, since I'd noticed a number of similarities, though this could have been a co-incidence. This is not to say that they are similar overall or that because Mat does certain things then we should expect Shallan to do them too - just that they have some shared attributes.

 

I guess I was side-tracked in my analysis by my own perception of Mat as a character. I have always thought him irresponsible, looking towards his pleasure before responsibilities and even if he did come true in the end, the in-between made me cringed. I have not had the same feeling with Shallan as she seemed quite dedicated towards the tasks she has set for herself. She does have this tendency to evade, but her past makes me more forgiving towards her than Mat.

 

 

Some other things they both have: a curious, mischievous, optimistic nature - though to different degrees and in different ways. Tendency for their mouth to get them into trouble... and out, often by being "economical with the truth". Has own particular approach to life though can be quite flexible in partially adapting to new situations. Does not respond well to orders and generally does not show automatic respect to their "betters". Notably unreliable narrator, though in quite different ways. Not the most dependable but somehow trustworthy. Can give impression of being a lightweight or shallow but is actually quite bit more complex and tends to be underestimated. Rarely aggressive and prefers to avoid combat.

 

I agree about the mischievous and optimistic nature. I would add "happy go lucky" which would befit both Shallan and Mat. Curious however, I have more trouble associating with Mat. From my memories, he never seemed all that interested in knowledge. It was granted to him without any effort by a twist of the wheel, but I do not recall him making any trial to broaden his horizon. Shallan, on the other hand, is quite the scholar, though not as much as Jasnah.

 

I agree about the non-respect of authority and the tendency to not take the words of their supposed better for granted.

 

Not dependable? Is Shallan not dependable? When has she not proven to be dependable? She does what she says she will do. Always. Even if she does not want to.

 

I agree about the non-aggressive argument. Mat never liked battle. In fact, he did his best to avoid it even if he was very good at it. Much like Shallan, though she has still to show any skill towards fighting.

 

 

I'm sure I could list quite a number of differences too of course! Actually, though we only see her a bit, Yunmi's personality feels closer to Shallan than Mat's... though both seem more extrovert than her... and both have combat training while Shallan is more of a "the pen is mightier than the sword" type (and I hope she stays that way). It's also hard comparing characters between series since they change over time - Mat isn't particularly interesting when we first meet him while Shallan has already been through a great deal.

 

To be fair, Mat never was one of my favorite in WoT. I liked him well enough, but I could never mustered his forced love story with Tuon, though I liked how it ended for him. Somehow, becoming the Prince of Ravens seemed befitting. Early in the series, he always came up as whiny and annoying. He gets a whole lot better when he starts to take charge of the Band of the red Hand. Shallan, I feel, is a much more interesting character. She has a troubled past, whereas Mat doesn't. Not to say he does not have a story but it is not one worth talking about: the quiet life of a mischievous child.

 

I agree there is a parallel to be made even if it did not strike me as obvious to begin with.

[kari-no-sugata]

I guess I was side-tracked in my analysis by my own perception of Mat as a character. I have always thought him irresponsible, looking towards his pleasure before responsibilities and even if he did come true in the end, the in-between made me cringed. I have not had the same feeling with Shallan as she seemed quite dedicated towards the tasks she has set for herself. She does have this tendency to evade, but her past makes me more forgiving towards her than Mat.

 

The characters' pasts do help a lot. If we compare to the Wheel of Time, there's not much we as readers need to know about their pasts for most of the main characters - yes they each have their own distinct personality and quirks but they haven't been "seasoned" by events. It'll be interesting to see how Brandon's plans for having one flash-back character per book work out but it does allow for more interesting characters, I think.

 

Shallan's past does help our understanding of her a lot though it would have been quite depressing to see "live", probably. On the other hand, maybe this partly explains why we don't have so many major characters from more "normal" backgrounds yet - bit harder to have a complex and interesting past as a peasant. But looks like there might be more in the pipeline. On Roshar, the Radiants (ie main magic system available to people) are considered bad/cursed/evil etc so it's interesting to see the various ways people react to it - unsurprisingly, it's not all good. Kaladin thinks he's cursed, Dalinar thinks he's going mad, Renarin thinks he's cursed and is going mad, Jasnah is quite surprised at first but is more worried about long term implications, Lift think she's awesome but that her spren is a voidbringer. We haven't seen Shallan's original reaction but it seems likely that her mother considered her to be possessed by evil and sent for an exorcist, or something along those lines.

 

I agree about the mischievous and optimistic nature. I would add "happy go lucky" which would befit both Shallan and Mat. Curious however, I have more trouble associating with Mat. From my memories, he never seemed all that interested in knowledge. It was granted to him without any effort by a twist of the wheel, but I do not recall him making any trial to broaden his horizon. Shallan, on the other hand, is quite the scholar, though not as much as Jasnah.

 

For "curious" I meant in general sense. I seem to remember him taking apart a clock when younger, for example. And a firework when a bit older Wanting to know what's in a certain letter. Things like that.

 

 

Not dependable? Is Shallan not dependable? When has she not proven to be dependable? She does what she says she will do. Always. Even if she does not want to.

 

Oops, didn't manage to phrase that right. Instead of "not that dependable but trustworthy" lets say "capricious but trustworthy"... or... that it's hard to predict how they're going to react to things but once they decide to do something you can  rely on them to see it through. Ie some days they react badly to something you had expected them to like and some days they're not that bothered about something you expected them to get angry about yet there's never the sense that they would just give up when the going gets tough.

 

I agree about the non-aggressive argument. Mat never liked battle. In fact, he did his best to avoid it even if he was very good at it. Much like Shallan, though she has still to show any skill towards fighting.

 

Well, culturally she has had little chance to gain such skills to date. It's hard to say if she would ever will. There's one or two tiny hints that maybe she might like to try if she got the chance but that might just be her sense of curiosity kicking in. I think there's some skills related to combat in general that would be useful for her to pick up but she doesn't feel like someone who would become a "soldier" unless events really forced her. Oddly, I think there's a better chance for her to become a war strategist (to come up with plans/ideas for combat), though again there would be a big cultural barrier and doesn't seem like a path Shallan would naturally go down - there's various ways I could see it happening and since Shallan is likely going to be in lots of meetings where war/combat is discussed maybe she could get curious or would simply study it in order to understand and contribute. I don't know if Shallan will ever go down such a route but it would be quite amusing to see

 

 

To be fair, Mat never was one of my favorite in WoT. I liked him well enough, but I could never mustered his forced love story with Tuon, though I liked how it ended for him. Somehow, becoming the Prince of Ravens seemed befitting. Early in the series, he always came up as whiny and annoying. He gets a whole lot better when he starts to take charge of the Band of the red Hand. Shallan, I feel, is a much more interesting character. She has a troubled past, whereas Mat doesn't. Not to say he does not have a story but it is not one worth talking about: the quiet life of a mischievous child.

Forced love story, heh. An interesting situation where both of them are given a future prediction that they both totally believe will come true even if they don't like it or it seems impossible. An interesting concept at least.

 

It's been a long time since I last re-read the earlier books but I'd be surprised if Mat had many fans until book 3, since in books 1-2 he was rather messed up by a certain cursed dagger. Starting from book 3 I think I generally looked forwards to his chapters since he is fun and interesting character and makes quite a big contrast to the other main viewpoint characters (something Shallan does too) even if I probably wouldn't like him so much if I met him in person. I certainly agree that he improves a lot once he stops running away and ends up forming the Band. I remember after The Way of Kings came out Brandon talked about the emotional contrast in the main viewpoint characters and in a sense Shallan's was there to help lighten the overall story - I wouldn't be surprised if Robert Jordan had a similar intent for Mat's viewpoint (though whether he intended that from the beginning or not I don't know).

 

Certainly the difference in background makes a big divergence in how the characters developed. I find Mat's general view of himself to be more like "only normal/sane guy in a world gone mad" and his "unreliable narrator" aspect generally stems from that. I don't remember him being forced to live with painful choices/actions until book 5 while Shallan had to go through much more painful situations as a child which had a huge impact on her - Shallan has quite a negative view of herself. In terms of personality, this is perhaps the biggest difference between them.

 

From an author's point of view, "re-using" characters is probably a bit different to readers, because they're much more used to playing around with the various attributes, setting and history of characters (and also age and gender). So... if we take Mat, make him female, put him on Roshar and give him Shallan's background, I wonder what he would be like? Obviously putting him in Shallan's setting would make him a more like Shallan overall, but what about from a MBTI point of view? We don't see what Shallan was like before her mother's death but it seems likely to me that her experiences made her more introverted than she would have been otherwise. I'm curious to hear any other suggestions of how Shallan's past affected her MBTI.

 

Anyway... this isn't to argue that we can transform Mat into Shallan simply by changing the background and setting. Shallan certainly has attributes that neither of the two characters she's partly based on has - eg, skills art and scholarship and various personality quirks.

 

I agree there is a parallel to be made even if it did not strike me as obvious to begin with.

 

I don't think it occurred to me at all until I re-read WoR.

 

 

PS Forgot to mention one other thing they have in common: gambling. Obviously Shallan doesn't do 'real' gambling but like Mat she has a tendency to take risks, even with her own life.

[maxal]

 

The characters' pasts do help a lot. If we compare to the Wheel of Time, there's not much we as readers need to know about their pasts for most of the main characters - yes they each have their own distinct personality and quirks but they haven't been "seasoned" by events. It'll be interesting to see how Brandon's plans for having one flash-back character per book work out but it does allow for more interesting characters, I think.

 

The Wheel of Time characters all had a happy uneventful childhood and would all had a happy uneventful adult life had they not been born in the Age where the Dragon was set to roam free again. There was no need to learn more about their past as we already knew all we needed to know to understand them.

 

The only character having an interesting past, strong enough to have defined her, was Nynaeve. She is a channeler who never took the path of the White Tower, instead she learned how to control her gift by herself. She was named Wisdom of her village as a young woman and had trouble commanding authority as the village circle did not take her seriously due to her age. She thus developed an authoritative personality and yearned for her first grey hair. She also blocked herself and needed anger to use her powers. She was a very interesting character, albeit not one with a trouble past, but one with past hardships that forged her persona.

 

 

Shallan's past does help our understanding of her a lot though it would have been quite depressing to see "live", probably. On the other hand, maybe this partly explains why we don't have so many major characters from more "normal" backgrounds yet - bit harder to have a complex and interesting past as a peasant. But looks like there might be more in the pipeline. On Roshar, the Radiants (ie main magic system available to people) are considered bad/cursed/evil etc so it's interesting to see the various ways people react to it - unsurprisingly, it's not all good. Kaladin thinks he's cursed, Dalinar thinks he's going mad, Renarin thinks he's cursed and is going mad, Jasnah is quite surprised at first but is more worried about long term implications, Lift think she's awesome but that her spren is a voidbringer. We haven't seen Shallan's original reaction but it seems likely that her mother considered her to be possessed by evil and sent for an exorcist, or something along those lines.

 

I hope Brandon will not fall within the trap to give all of his characters a troubled, miserable past. So far, I feel he is on the verge of going too far with Kaladin. All the misery of the world do not keep on falling on the same person... There's bad in life, but there is also good. I hope Brandon will give Kaladin some good as to keep on putting him into hardships just to justify his growth is getting tiresome. I feel Kaladin could just as equally grow without having another one of his loved one die or without being gravely injured while having lost his spren. Shallan so far, has not gone into this extreme yet. Her crusade to join the Shattered Plains have been a necessary growth and despite being hard, it did not convey the same fatality as Kaladin's story arc.

 

As for Shallan's initial reaction to Pattern, being a young girl at the time, I would think she must have been curious. She is a naturally curious person, it is therefore safe to assume, upon finding a talkative spren, her reaction may be linked to this aspect of her personality. I agree about the other characters reactions on the matter.

 

Jasnah is curious, intrigued, but worried.

Shallan is curious.

Kaladin thinks he is cursed

Dalinar thinks he is mad

Renarin thinks he is cursed and mad

 

Now how about the others non Radiant gravitating around them?

 

Navani would be curious but worried

Elhokar would be angry and disbelieving

Adolin is completely overwhelmed.

 

 

For "curious" I meant in general sense. I seem to remember him taking apart a clock when younger, for example. And a firework when a bit older Wanting to know what's in a certain letter. Things like that.

 

You are right! I had forgotten about that... I had reading books and being a scholar in mind, but it is true Mat had this unhealthy curiosity towards explosive and fireworks which lead him to invent the Dragons. Had he not been so curious, he would have never thought of it, nor would he have bothered Aludra so much about it.

 

 

 

Oops, didn't manage to phrase that right. Instead of "not that dependable but trustworthy" lets say "capricious but trustworthy"... or... that it's hard to predict how they're going to react to things but once they decide to do something you can  rely on them to see it through. Ie some days they react badly to something you had expected them to like and some days they're not that bothered about something you expected them to get angry about yet there's never the sense that they would just give up when the going gets tough.

 

Agree. This makes me thing of something about the Shallan/Adolin relationship... We know Shallan's father once gave her a chain which she later used to strangle her father. The chain is a symbol, the symbol of her imprisonment and the fact she used it to kill the man responsible for her lack of liberty is equally symbolic. On the other hand, Adolin carries a similar chain which once belonged to his mother. It has a high sentimental value, to him, and he has been using it as a good luck-charm for what seems like years.

 

Providing the said chain is not lost forever, what happens if Adolin decides to give it to the woman he loves as I suspect he would? How would capricious Shallan react? Seeing how she reacted to Adolin's desire to protect her more and prevent having her fall into a chasm again, an adventure who would have traumatized most people, I would not be surprised if she reacted harshly... How dare he put chains on her? Like her father. The chain is a symbol, a negative one for her.

 

Would Shallan completely disregard how valuable this specific chain is to Adolin in order to let her own unfounded fears roam free? Would she heart break him by turning down the gift of one of his most prized possession? Could their predicted fall-out happened because of a chain????

 

Just wondering here about Shallan and capricious.

 

 

 

Well, culturally she has had little chance to gain such skills to date. It's hard to say if she would ever will. There's one or two tiny hints that maybe she might like to try if she got the chance but that might just be her sense of curiosity kicking in. I think there's some skills related to combat in general that would be useful for her to pick up but she doesn't feel like someone who would become a "soldier" unless events really forced her. Oddly, I think there's a better chance for her to become a war strategist (to come up with plans/ideas for combat), though again there would be a big cultural barrier and doesn't seem like a path Shallan would naturally go down - there's various ways I could see it happening and since Shallan is likely going to be in lots of meetings where war/combat is discussed maybe she could get curious or would simply study it in order to understand and contribute. I don't know if Shallan will ever go down such a route but it would be quite amusing to see  

 

Whereas it would be interesting, I see it as doubtful. Shallan is an artist before all, not a soldier, nor a war general. Besides, I feel she would be stepping into Adolin's area of expertise. I am unsure how I would feel about such development... It is true her natural curiosity may push her down this path, but I do not wish for Shallan to be the deposit of all skills. Not everyone is good at everything.

 

As for Shallan gaining some self-defense skills, I see it as highly possible. She has expressed a desire to learn how to fight, so I see it as plausible she would take her words for it and seek knowledge. I do not see her transforming herself into a warrior, but she may be able to become an average weapon wielder.

 

 

 

Forced love story, heh. An interesting situation where both of them are given a future prediction that they both totally believe will come true even if they don't like it or it seems impossible. An interesting concept at least.

 

Personally, I am not found of visions and predictions in stories. I have always hated the fact Mat got enamored with Tuon simply because the Finns told him he would marry her. The same goes for Tuon. She accepted Mat because her augur told her she would. I wholeheartedly hope Renarin's visions will not work this way.

 

 

 

It's been a long time since I last re-read the earlier books but I'd be surprised if Mat had many fans until book 3, since in books 1-2 he was rather messed up by a certain cursed dagger. Starting from book 3 I think I generally looked forwards to his chapters since he is fun and interesting character and makes quite a big contrast to the other main viewpoint characters (something Shallan does too) even if I probably wouldn't like him so much if I met him in person. I certainly agree that he improves a lot once he stops running away and ends up forming the Band. I remember after The Way of Kings came out Brandon talked about the emotional contrast in the main viewpoint characters and in a sense Shallan's was there to help lighten the overall story - I wouldn't be surprised if Robert Jordan had a similar intent for Mat's viewpoint (though whether he intended that from the beginning or not I don't know). 

 

 

Mat was annoying in the first three books.... I would also be surprised if he were anyone's favorite then. Most people must have had Rand for a favorite then or even Perrin. Mat goes up int he middle books, whereas Rand goes down with his never ending obsession about killing women. An interesting plot that just took too long to resolved itself., By the time we finally reached the conclusion, I hated Rand so much I could not care anymore what happened to him

 

Shallan lightens the story? I guess she does... The first two SA books strongly revolved around Kaladin, a strong main character, but a somber and grave one. Shallan does counterbalance him. However, since we are bond to have 10 major characters, I doubt (and hope) Brandon will keep on giving Kaladin half of the POV in the upcoming books. I hope the Kohlin family as a whole will get a bigger spotlight in the next book. Epic fantasy needs more than one or two major character to remain interesting. Jordan understood this and gave us 6 major characters. Whereas Mat was one of the lightest POV, we could say the same of frilly Elayne, though she tend to be more hated then loved.

 

 

 

Certainly the difference in background makes a big divergence in how the characters developed. I find Mat's general view of himself to be more like "only normal/sane guy in a world gone mad" and his "unreliable narrator" aspect generally stems from that. I don't remember him being forced to live with painful choices/actions until book 5 while Shallan had to go through much more painful situations as a child which had a huge impact on her - Shallan has quite a negative view of herself. In terms of personality, this is perhaps the biggest difference between them.

 

From an author's point of view, "re-using" characters is probably a bit different to readers, because they're much more used to playing around with the various attributes, setting and history of characters (and also age and gender). So... if we take Mat, make him female, put him on Roshar and give him Shallan's background, I wonder what he would be like? Obviously putting him in Shallan's setting would make him a more like Shallan overall, but what about from a MBTI point of view? We don't see what Shallan was like before her mother's death but it seems likely to me that her experiences made her more introverted than she would have been otherwise. I'm curious to hear any other suggestions of how Shallan's past affected her MBTI.

 

Mat never had to deal with hardships to the scope of what Shallan had to deal with. It is therefore hard to guess how he would have grown up had he been the youngest member of an oppressive family while being forced to keep inside the fact he murdered his own mother. Mat was the oldest child and his parents loved him very much. How would he have grown had he not received this love? For one, he would have a lesser self-confidence, just like Shallan. Though Shallan has the strength of mind to overcome her past and managed not to break down completely. Could Mat have done the same? Perhaps, but perhaps not. Being the older, it could be he would have over compensated by protecting his young sisters. Being a male, he may have physically confronted his father earlier. Being less submissive, he may not have let his father take advantage of him the way Shallan did... Hard to tell.

 

I am convinced Shallan's MBTI changed during her teenage years and will change again. Everyone change as they grow up. I do think Shallan was a E as a child, became an I out of necessity, but we are now seeing the E slowly take back its place. Though, she may never be an extroverted, she is bound to become more outgoing, though I suspect she will always keep herself tightly guarded.

 

 

 

PS Forgot to mention one other thing they have in common: gambling. Obviously Shallan doesn't do 'real' gambling but like Mat she has a tendency to take risks, even with her own life.

 

True. Shallan took a huge gamble with the Ghostblood. However, she does not like playing for the sake of playing. She gambles when the stakes are high, unlike Mat who just enjoy the sport of gambling.

[kari-no-sugata]

The only character having an interesting past, strong enough to have defined her, was Nynaeve. She is a channeler who never took the path of the White Tower, instead she learned how to control her gift by herself. She was named Wisdom of her village as a young woman and had trouble commanding authority as the village circle did not take her seriously due to her age. She thus developed an authoritative personality and yearned for her first grey hair. She also blocked herself and needed anger to use her powers. She was a very interesting character, albeit not one with a trouble past, but one with past hardships that forged her persona.

 

Yep. She was also raised by her single parent father who was a ranger or something. Nynaeve is a character who grew on me quite a lot as the series progressed.

 

I hope Brandon will not fall within the trap to give all of his characters a troubled, miserable past. So far, I feel he is on the verge of going too far with Kaladin. All the misery of the world do not keep on falling on the same person... There's bad in life, but there is also good. I hope Brandon will give Kaladin some good as to keep on putting him into hardships just to justify his growth is getting tiresome. I feel Kaladin could just as equally grow without having another one of his loved one die or without being gravely injured while having lost his spren. Shallan so far, has not gone into this extreme yet. Her crusade to join the Shattered Plains have been a necessary growth and despite being hard, it did not convey the same fatality as Kaladin's story arc.

 

All the Radiants at least will need something big enough to break them... though as we discussed already that doesn't have to be as bad as what Kaladin or Shallan have faced. So I expect a lot of troubled pasts but not necessarily so many miserable presents. I would note that most of Kaladin's real problems in book 2 were self-inflicted. Hopefully he won't be doing that so much in the next book.

 

I was just looking through some interviews and in one Brandon talks about wanting to do a very wide variety of "knights" including those who don't at all match the image of "knights" (eg Lift).

 

 

Agree. This makes me thing of something about the Shallan/Adolin relationship... We know Shallan's father once gave her a chain which she later used to strangle her father. The chain is a symbol, the symbol of her imprisonment and the fact she used it to kill the man responsible for her lack of liberty is equally symbolic. On the other hand, Adolin carries a similar chain which once belonged to his mother. It has a high sentimental value, to him, and he has been using it as a good luck-charm for what seems like years.

 

Providing the said chain is not lost forever, what happens if Adolin decides to give it to the woman he loves as I suspect he would? How would capricious Shallan react? Seeing how she reacted to Adolin's desire to protect her more and prevent having her fall into a chasm again, an adventure who would have traumatized most people, I would not be surprised if she reacted harshly... How dare he put chains on her? Like her father. The chain is a symbol, a negative one for her.

 

Would Shallan completely disregard how valuable this specific chain is to Adolin in order to let her own unfounded fears roam free? Would she heart break him by turning down the gift of one of his most prized possession? Could their predicted fall-out happened because of a chain????

 

Just wondering here about Shallan and capricious.

 

In the scenario above, I would be quite surprised if the necklace would be an issue in terms of reminding Shallan about her father since she doesn't have a bad reaction to just any reminder - seems to be only things that directly relate to his abuse, ie abuse of authority, direct threats to people she cares about, coercion, violent anger. For example, when Jasnah initially raises the causal with Adolin, Shallan has a positive reaction even though being married off by her father is one of her first lines in the entire series. It was presented as a choice to Shallan - if Jasnah had "ordered" Shallan instead then I'm guessing we'd see a very different reaction.

 

I don't remember Shallan feeling that the necklace was a symbol of anything - it was given in a casual way and he didn't refer to it afterwards that I remember. That being said, if something makes Shallan recall a specific scene of her father being abusive then she could have a bad reaction to something innocuous - I have wondered before if Shallan's supernaturally good memory could have downsides. So, it would be possible but would probably require extremely bad luck in most cases. Generally, I would not expect an incidental reminder of her father to trigger a bad reaction. Also, Shallan is generally self-aware enough to notice that she's having an unreasonable reaction and is not too prideful to admit to faults - so just because her initial reaction is bad it doesn't mean she'll persist with it or make it worse by herself.

 

The much bigger potential problem with your necklace scenario above is Shallan being reminded of her mother. During book 2, if Adolin had just incidentally mentioned the keepsake he has from his dead mother that alone could have caused Shallan to freeze. I have no idea how much Shallan progressed right at the end of the book and I don't know what painful memories are lurking in her past and how well she is currently able to deal with them. But it's certainly possible that instead of freezing that Shallan has a bad reaction instead.

 

Side thought: I don't know what initially caused Shallan to "break" enough to bond Pattern as a child. For a sensitive child like Shallan a bad relationship with her mother could be more than enough. There's other possibilities of course but that is the only one hinted at so far, that I can see. (I had a pretty creepy idea a few weeks ago...)

 

Whereas it would be interesting, I see it as doubtful. Shallan is an artist before all, not a soldier, nor a war general. Besides, I feel she would be stepping into Adolin's area of expertise. I am unsure how I would feel about such development... It is true her natural curiosity may push her down this path, but I do not wish for Shallan to be the deposit of all skills. Not everyone is good at everything.

 

As for Shallan gaining some self-defense skills, I see it as highly possible. She has expressed a desire to learn how to fight, so I see it as plausible she would take her words for it and seek knowledge. I do not see her transforming herself into a warrior, but she may be able to become an average weapon wielder.

 

I don't wish Shallan to be the deposit of all skills either... but... it's not hard for me to imagine her doing all sorts of fun things! I've had much much crazier ideas for her than this (sorry!!!)

To be clear, in my example I was thinking of Shallan being more of an advisor rather than general. For small-scale combat I think Shallan will do fine providing some improvised support, like with Kaladin in the chasms, but what about large scale combat? Against voidbringers she would be highly vulnerable to attack and she wouldn't fit well into a normal command structure. There's certainly ways around this: if she can go mostly invisible while wearing Shardplate she would be much safer - if she could do that and provide tactical support at a distance then she could assist the front line troops (and fellow Radiants) from a safe distance. She's certainly brave enough to try such things but what if it isn't practical? I definitely don't see her simply looking on from afar and pining away while people she cares about are in real danger. She'd definitely want to do something and she has a good brain. Of course, she could do a bit of both - for example, be part of a team of people who develop battle plans and also participate as well.

 

 

Shallan lightens the story? I guess she does... The first two SA books strongly revolved around Kaladin, a strong main character, but a somber and grave one. Shallan does counterbalance him. However, since we are bond to have 10 major characters, I doubt (and hope) Brandon will keep on giving Kaladin half of the POV in the upcoming books. I hope the Kohlin family as a whole will get a bigger spotlight in the next book. Epic fantasy needs more than one or two major character to remain interesting. Jordan understood this and gave us 6 major characters. Whereas Mat was one of the lightest POV, we could say the same of frilly Elayne, though she tend to be more hated then loved.

I remember an old interview with Brandon, from just after tWoK was released, where he talks about the different viewpoint characters in the book and how things with Kaladin are very dark and Dalinar isn't much better... but over here there's Shallan with a very different tone and readers can chose to focus on which one they prefer. Something like that. Maybe I can find it sometime.

 

For sure, Shallan's story in tWoK isn't all blossoms and cake... but it's certainly lighter than Kaladin's story. Shallan's backstory in WoR however...

 

I am convinced Shallan's MBTI changed during her teenage years and will change again. Everyone change as they grow up. I do think Shallan was a E as a child, became an I out of necessity, but we are now seeing the E slowly take back its place. Though, she may never be an extroverted, she is bound to become more outgoing, though I suspect she will always keep herself tightly guarded.

I suspect that Shallan has become more J over time though I can't really justify it. Was Shallan I or E as a child...? I can most easily imagine her as a weak I and a strong F becoming a strong I and medium F over time.

[maxal]

 

Yep. She was also raised by her single parent father who was a ranger or something. Nynaeve is a character who grew on me quite a lot as the series progressed.

 

Nynaeve was my favorite character in WoT I have always liked her, from book 1 I absolutely adore how she managed to break her block. This was a strong scene for me.

 

 

 

All the Radiants at least will need something big enough to break them... though as we discussed already that doesn't have to be as bad as what Kaladin or Shallan have faced. So I expect a lot of troubled pasts but not necessarily so many miserable presents. I would note that most of Kaladin's real problems in book 2 were self-inflicted. Hopefully he won't be doing that so much in the next book.

 

I was just looking through some interviews and in one Brandon talks about wanting to do a very wide variety of "knights" including those who don't at all match the image of "knights" (eg Lift).

 

I agree they all need to break. I guess I was simply complaining about the fact Kaladin's was not only broken in his past, but never seems to walk away from his misery. I also agree most of his current problems are internal and neither would I want them to magically disappear. However, I did not feel it was necessary for Kaladin to: have his arm slayed by a shardblade, get imprison again, fall into the chasm, lose Syl, get severely injured and managing to re kink his bond while being on the verge of death. I felt these were just too much. Reading WoR has left me with a sour feeling when it comes to Kaladin. I adored him in WoK, but after WoR, I cannot honestly state how I feel about him now. His plot felt to contrived, too forced. Not only did he had the most traumatizing past, he also has to have the most traumatizing present.

 

I hope Brandon will better balanced his characters in the next book.

 

I also think Lift will grow up to be refined. Adolin's influence perhaps? I think putting those two together would make an interesting story plot.

 

 

 

In the scenario above, I would be quite surprised if the necklace would be an issue in terms of reminding Shallan about her father since she doesn't have a bad reaction to just any reminder - seems to be only things that directly relate to his abuse, ie abuse of authority, direct threats to people she cares about, coercion, violent anger. For example, when Jasnah initially raises the causal with Adolin, Shallan has a positive reaction even though being married off by her father is one of her first lines in the entire series. It was presented as a choice to Shallan - if Jasnah had "ordered" Shallan instead then I'm guessing we'd see a very different reaction.

 

I don't remember Shallan feeling that the necklace was a symbol of anything - it was given in a casual way and he didn't refer to it afterwards that I remember. That being said, if something makes Shallan recall a specific scene of her father being abusive then she could have a bad reaction to something innocuous - I have wondered before if Shallan's supernaturally good memory could have downsides. So, it would be possible but would probably require extremely bad luck in most cases. Generally, I would not expect an incidental reminder of her father to trigger a bad reaction. Also, Shallan is generally self-aware enough to notice that she's having an unreasonable reaction and is not too prideful to admit to faults - so just because her initial reaction is bad it doesn't mean she'll persist with it or make it worse by herself.

 

The much bigger potential problem with your necklace scenario above is Shallan being reminded of her mother. During book 2, if Adolin had just incidentally mentioned the keepsake he has from his dead mother that alone could have caused Shallan to freeze. I have no idea how much Shallan progressed right at the end of the book and I don't know what painful memories are lurking in her past and how well she is currently able to deal with them. But it's certainly possible that instead of freezing that Shallan has a bad reaction instead.

 

Side thought: I don't know what initially caused Shallan to "break" enough to bond Pattern as a child. For a sensitive child like Shallan a bad relationship with her mother could be more than enough. There's other possibilities of course but that is the only one hinted at so far, that I can see. (I had a pretty creepy idea a few weeks ago...)

 

Somehow, the necklace has gotten my attention while I read WoR. I disagree it is not a symbol. Her father gave it to her as a pricy gift in order to buy her love and fidelity. The chain was said to be beautiful, but Shallan never liked it. She only wore it because she felt obliged to. My understanding was she saw the chain as the symbol of her father's delusions. Her house was impoverish and yet her father splurged on an expensive useless item. Why? For many reasons. For one, he hopes to marry Shallan to a wealthy man, which is why he disclosed her during his fancy dinners, exposing her like a piece of meat to be sold to the highest bidder. For second, he wanted to make sure Shallan will remain his. In other words, he bought her.

 

The fact Shallan later used the same chain she has always despised to kill her father is a strong symbol or so I thought when I read the scene. I could not help but make the parallel with Adolin's chain... Both have lost their mothers at the same age (around 11-12 years old), but both have completely different reactions. Whereas Shallan wants to forget everything pertaining her mother, Adolin wants to keep her memory alive by remembering her, even if everyone seems to have forgotten (such the perfect Edgedancer ).

 

I know I may be grasping on straws here, but I could not help to draw the parallel between those two and their chains.

 

Shallan is not so self-aware. After the chasm scene, she reacted very harshly to Adolin's discourse on how he would do his best to avoid her from ever falling down a chasm again. Imagine the scene, Adolin was walking with Shallan, the bridge collapsed and instead of saving the woman he loved, he rushed to save his aging father! The guilt! The shame! Seriously, which girl would be fine with that? Her reaction may have been understandable given her past, it was uncalled for. Adolin never said he wanted to lock her in a tower, but Shallan somehow expects it to happen because of her past. She was not self-aware enough at the time to realized Adolin wanting to prevent her form living terrible experiences is a mark of love, not slavery.

 

Based on this, I still think she may react harshly upon seeing this chain. Adolin is giving her a chain, just like her father. Impossible she won't be reminded of this. Impossible she won't be reminded of her strangling her father with it. It is the symbol of her imprisonment. There always is a symbol. I think it is very likely the chain is a strong one.

 

Of all gifts Adolin could have chosen, this may have been the worst, though in my scenario, he does not have the time to explain her where it comes from. She lashes as him, throwing a tantrum similar to the "after the chasm" scene. She learns the truth, afterwards.

 

But I will agree this is pure speculation on my part

 

I think Pattern stated at one instance Shallan did not break, she cracked... The sprens do not need their proto-knights to break down as hard as Kal, but they need them to crack. My personal theory is the hardships causing the breakdown are a test of sorts. If the individual is able to still fulfill its attributes while hitting rock bottom, then they are good choices.

 

What's your creepy idea? My thoughts were her family was unhappy. Her parents were fighting and her mother was most likely unfaithful. She was stuck in the middle of it all. Fighting parents can ruin any child. Does not need to be more than that.

 

 

 

I don't wish Shallan to be the deposit of all skills either... but... it's not hard for me to imagine her doing all sorts of fun things! I've had much much crazier ideas for her than this (sorry!!!)

To be clear, in my example I was thinking of Shallan being more of an advisor rather than general. For small-scale combat I think Shallan will do fine providing some improvised support, like with Kaladin in the chasms, but what about large scale combat? Against voidbringers she would be highly vulnerable to attack and she wouldn't fit well into a normal command structure. There's certainly ways around this: if she can go mostly invisible while wearing Shardplate she would be much safer - if she could do that and provide tactical support at a distance then she could assist the front line troops (and fellow Radiants) from a safe distance. She's certainly brave enough to try such things but what if it isn't practical? I definitely don't see her simply looking on from afar and pining away while people she cares about are in real danger. She'd definitely want to do something and she has a good brain. Of course, she could do a bit of both - for example, be part of a team of people who develop battle plans and also participate as well.

 

My fears with Shallan are Brandon will make her smarter then everyone else. So far, she has outshone everyone in the task to find Urithiru. I do not mind this plot line so far as she did have the necessary skill set to draw the missing link. However, I hope she will not end up being this character who is never wrong, just like I do not wish for Kaladin to become this unbeatable character. I like my characters to be more realistic and sometimes, in life, you do great, but other times, you miss.

 

I could see her becoming an adviser or offering her inputs. I would see her organizing spying missions in order to gather information about their opponents movements, troops, arms and stuff. She could lead the information gathering effort which would then be put together by the war generals such as Dalinar and Adolin, the later being the front man on every battle field. 

 

FYI, I have LOTS of crazy scenarios in my head I have written book 3 at least 10 times I can wait to see if one of my prospective plot twist will be use, in part or in all, though in my case, it mostly revolves around Adolin and his faith after having killed Sadeas

 

 

I remember an old interview with Brandon, from just after tWoK was released, where he talks about the different viewpoint characters in the book and how things with Kaladin are very dark and Dalinar isn't much better... but over here there's Shallan with a very different tone and readers can chose to focus on which one they prefer. Something like that. Maybe I can find it sometime.

 

For sure, Shallan's story in tWoK isn't all blossoms and cake... but it's certainly lighter than Kaladin's story. Shallan's backstory in WoR however...

 

I like the fact we have multiple viewpoint characters. Epic fantasy needs multiple POV to be enthralling, well to me it does. However, after reading WoK and WoR, I feel Kaladin and Shallan were over-developed when compared to the other POV characters. In WoT, for example, character development was progressive. Each one progressed at about the same speed.. whereas in SA Kaladin and Shallan had the fast treatment. I sincerely hope the next books will focus more on the other characters in order to balance things out.

 

Shallan's backstory, while being sad, was not as dramatic as Kaladin's.... Kaladin just had this sadness and fatality in it, with the heavily forecast death of his brother which most people now see as a proto-lightweaver.... When it comes to Kaladin, everything seems more grave, more somber, more sad, more everything, which is probably why he is most readers favorite character and it is also why I keep rooting for Brandon to focus more on his other character I'm weird like that

[kari-no-sugata]

Nynaeve was my favorite character in WoT I have always liked her, from book 1 I absolutely adore how she managed to break her block. This was a strong scene for me.

If not for Mat and Nynaeve I don't know if I'd have continued reading the series. Low points were getting quite low...

 

I agree they all need to break. I guess I was simply complaining about the fact Kaladin's was not only broken in his past, but never seems to walk away from his misery. I also agree most of his current problems are internal and neither would I want them to magically disappear. However, I did not feel it was necessary for Kaladin to: have his arm slayed by a shardblade, get imprison again, fall into the chasm, lose Syl, get severely injured and managing to re kink his bond while being on the verge of death. I felt these were just too much. Reading WoR has left me with a sour feeling when it comes to Kaladin. I adored him in WoK, but after WoR, I cannot honestly state how I feel about him now. His plot felt to contrived, too forced. Not only did he had the most traumatizing past, he also has to have the most traumatizing present.

The way I see it, in tWoK it's obvious early on that Kaladin can't go any lower and so the only way is up. It's obvious he's doing the right thing so it's easy to cheer him on. In WoR, though things start out okay it slowly goes downhill and instead of cheering him on we're hoping that he'll change course. I don't find his situation to be any more or any less contrived that in tWoK it's just that he's heading in a disagreeable direction so as readers we want to reject it. I thought all his problems were foreshadowed both in tWoK and early in WoR - I was not surprised to see Kaladin go in a bad direction based on the early part of the book.

 

I agree that the guy needs a break though. So far, I don't think he's gotten even a single week where he's basically content (let alone happy).

 

I hope Brandon will better balanced his characters in the next book.

I think this is highly likely. I don't think Kaladin is over being depressed (particularly given how bad the global situation is) but I think he is probably over his biggest issues (maybe Shallan is too) and so it's time to shift the focus a bit.

 

Somehow, the necklace has gotten my attention while I read WoR. I disagree it is not a symbol. Her father gave it to her as a pricy gift in order to buy her love and fidelity. The chain was said to be beautiful, but Shallan never liked it. She only wore it because she felt obliged to. My understanding was she saw the chain as the symbol of her father's delusions. Her house was impoverish and yet her father splurged on an expensive useless item. Why? For many reasons. For one, he hopes to marry Shallan to a wealthy man, which is why he disclosed her during his fancy dinners, exposing her like a piece of meat to be sold to the highest bidder. For second, he wanted to make sure Shallan will remain his. In other words, he bought her.

 

The fact Shallan later used the same chain she has always despised to kill her father is a strong symbol or so I thought when I read the scene. I could not help but make the parallel with Adolin's chain... Both have lost their mothers at the same age (around 11-12 years old), but both have completely different reactions. Whereas Shallan wants to forget everything pertaining her mother, Adolin wants to keep her memory alive by remembering her, even if everyone seems to have forgotten (such the perfect Edgedancer ).

 

I know I may be grasping on straws here, but I could not help to draw the parallel between those two and their chains.

I think it's fine to say it's a symbol to readers but I checked the flashbacks and couldn't find any indication of Shallan attaching any emotions to the necklace at all.

 

Shallan is not so self-aware. After the chasm scene, she reacted very harshly to Adolin's discourse on how he would do his best to avoid her from ever falling down a chasm again. Imagine the scene, Adolin was walking with Shallan, the bridge collapsed and instead of saving the woman he loved, he rushed to save his aging father! The guilt! The shame! Seriously, which girl would be fine with that? Her reaction may have been understandable given her past, it was uncalled for. Adolin never said he wanted to lock her in a tower, but Shallan somehow expects it to happen because of her past. She was not self-aware enough at the time to realized Adolin wanting to prevent her form living terrible experiences is a mark of love, not slavery.

I think if we had seen scenes through Adolin's viewpoint prior to him finding out that Shallan is alive I would expect to see what you say above. And more. I would also expect a lot of very dark thoughts aimed at Sadeas... which is exactly why we don't get such a scene as it would have blatantly telegraphed his last scene in the book.

 

And yet... do his feelings of guilt and shame give him any right to make demands of Shallan? No. Does it give him the right to make assumptions about how she feels? No. Does it give him the right to insist on controlling her safety the way he wants? No. Do his feelings mean she should simply accept them and suppress her own? No.

 

Is he actually doing any of that? No... but he's getting close. Close enough that it triggers a bad response from Shallan because it's uncomfortably close to some of the abuse she suffered for years and years - she shivers from the mere thought of it!

 

I'm not trying to fault either of them. Adolin is expressing his emotions strongly and clearly. Nothing wrong with that in many cases but in this case he's being a bit too aggressive for Shallan. It would certainly have helped if he knew more about her, particularly her past, but she hasn't been telling. He learns a bit here and adjusts his expectations.

 

I very much doubt Shallan wanted to react the way she did. I think this would be a good example of where having a very good memory can have downsides - it's harder to get over trauma. You say that it "may have been understandable given her past" - I would say it can only be understood by her past. To Shallan, personal freedom has become very precious and she is very protective of it. Yes, Adolin doesn't act like he's about to lock her up but he does say "We’ll have to make it so that you aren’t ever in that kind of position again" (emphasis added). Well, from a practical point of view, how are you going to achieve that? Easiest way would be to lock her up! There's no reasonable way to achieve those stated goals and still allow Shallan to have the freedom she needs. So I see this scene as being a case of conflicting desires.

Going back to Shallan being self-aware enough, I would say the following part of that scene indicates it: "She breathed in and out, calming herself. She reached out and took him by the hand" and this is followed up by "Shallan raised his hand and wove his fingers between her own."

 

She deliberately acts to calm herself. She helps Adolin calm down too and wants him to understand. In the end, does Adolin have an issue with her reaction? No. (Or at least, not that I can see)

 

 

I think Pattern stated at one instance Shallan did not break, she cracked... The sprens do not need their proto-knights to break down as hard as Kal, but they need them to crack. My personal theory is the hardships causing the breakdown are a test of sorts. If the individual is able to still fulfill its attributes while hitting rock bottom, then they are good choices.

 

I agree. Since you say "of sorts" do you mean that it's not a test that is given by the spren just one that is observed by them? In which case I also agree.

 

When Pattern is talking about Shallan merely cracking instead of breaking, the way he is talking about how human minds break it reads like Shallan would normally have been expected to break from her situation. Shallan resists. She fights back. She doesn't give up though she gets very close to it at one point (when she becomes the "perfect daughter"). Within this context, I'd say that it's giving up that breaks people for real.

 

What's your creepy idea? My thoughts were her family was unhappy. Her parents were fighting and her mother was most likely unfaithful. She was stuck in the middle of it all. Fighting parents can ruin any child. Does not need to be more than that.

 

At the end of WoR, I think Shallan is one step from becoming a full Radiant.  Putting it another way, there's only one more "Truth" to come. Does it have to be the biggest, deepest, darkest truth of all? Nope, I don't think the bond works that way but it's more like what we expect of a story. Certainly fighting parents can ruin any child but compared to the other secrets in Shallan's past it seems a bit tame - it would probably not feel dramatic enough and so be a bit of a let down.

 

So, I see two options: the first is that there is in fact some deep secret further in Shallan's past, something she would genuinely struggle to admit even to herself (fighting between parents doesn't seem hard to admit compared to killing your parents). The second is that rather than the last "Truth" be about what she can admit to herself it's about what she can admit to others, in particular people she cares about. I prefer the second option but the following creepy idea is an example for the first option:

 

I have had the thought for a long time that maybe Shallan had another sibling and that sibling died and Shallan blamed herself. My recent idea was to take the concept to another level: Shallan had an identical twin sister yet they were quite different in personality and Shallan was always being criticised by her mother and her sister always being praised. One day, the twin dies in an accident that nobody else but Shallan sees. Shallan is not to blame at all but she lies about who died - she's so desperate to be loved that she pretends to be the sister who was always praised and that it's the "bad" girl who died. So in fact, "Shallan" is not Shallan's true name but a name she stole.

 

Creepy huh? I should add that there's absolutely not the slightest bit of evidence for this in the text (or any Word of Brandon).

 

 

My fears with Shallan are Brandon will make her smarter then everyone else. So far, she has outshone everyone in the task to find Urithiru. I do not mind this plot line so far as she did have the necessary skill set to draw the missing link. However, I hope she will not end up being this character who is never wrong, just like I do not wish for Kaladin to become this unbeatable character. I like my characters to be more realistic and sometimes, in life, you do great, but other times, you miss.

From her own point of view, I don't see Shallan ever putting herself at the top (and I'm pretty sure Brandon has no interest in unbeatable characters). I would also say that right now, Shallan believes in Jasnah more than Jasnah believes in herself. I would say that that is a large part of what lead Shallan to success with Urithiru - she never worries about the possibility of Jasnah being wrong and instead spends most of the book catching up to where Jasnah had already gotten to. It gives her a different perspective to the other scholars and also means that doubts don't hold her back. Fortunately for her, Jasnah was indeed correct. In later books we might see a "repeat" but instead Jasnah is wrong and Shallan fails spectacularly. Shallan has a tendency not to think things through to the very end.

 

Longer term I expect to see a variety of smarts: remember the two aged ardents in tWoK - one was good at theory and the other at experimentation. Some characters will be better at certain things than others and there will be nobody who is above everyone else. For example, Jasnah seems the type to question every assumption, even assumptions most scholars don't even realise are assumptions, and because of that will analyse things nobody else thinks are worth bothering with. I think she's also good at "root cause analysis" or otherwise digging down to the true underlying details. Putting it another way, she's good at "deep" problems and doing "deep" analysis (probably often using a "top down" approach). I see Shallan taking a more "bottom up" or more intuitive approach. There's also more than research - there's communicating that research and also coming up with solutions.

 

I could see her becoming an adviser or offering her inputs. I would see her organizing spying missions in order to gather information about their opponents movements, troops, arms and stuff. She could lead the information gathering effort which would then be put together by the war generals such as Dalinar and Adolin, the later being the front man on every battle field.

 

I can definitely see Dalinar and Adolin in those roles.

 

For historical Lightweavers, it doesn't feel like spying was a typical role for them. Maybe it was and they just kept it secret of course and this will be revealed in time. However, the new Radiants don't have the old Radiants traditions or expectations - they can simply focus on what works. More like "Radiants Rebooted". I can certainly see Shallan picking up a variety of skills rather than being a specialist.

 

I like the fact we have multiple viewpoint characters. Epic fantasy needs multiple POV to be enthralling, well to me it does. However, after reading WoK and WoR, I feel Kaladin and Shallan were over-developed when compared to the other POV characters. In WoT, for example, character development was progressive. Each one progressed at about the same speed.. whereas in SA Kaladin and Shallan had the fast treatment. I sincerely hope the next books will focus more on the other characters in order to balance things out.

 

Shallan's backstory, while being sad, was not as dramatic as Kaladin's.... Kaladin just had this sadness and fatality in it, with the heavily forecast death of his brother which most people now see as a proto-lightweaver.... When it comes to Kaladin, everything seems more grave, more somber, more sad, more everything, which is probably why he is most readers favorite character and it is also why I keep rooting for Brandon to focus more on his other character I'm weird like that

Kaladin and Shallan aren't going to be the "flashback character" again so book 3 is definitely going to have a major focus on some other character. Hard to be certain about much more than that but from what Brandon has said in various interviews I'm expecting a consistent wide cast of characters but with varying emphasis between them.

[maxal]

If not for Mat and Nynaeve I don't know if I'd have continued reading the series. Low points were getting quite low...

 

By the time WoT reached its lows, I had grown attached to the characters and the story. I do not mind lows in epic fantasy so much, as long as I am able to care about a few characters. Most characters had lows and highs for me in WoT. I started the series loving Rand, down to hating him and back to liking him towards the end. I rather liked Egwene in the beginning , but I hated her in the last ones. Perrin reached a high for me when he saved Two Rivers from the Orcs, calling the villagers out for refusing refuge to harmless Thinkers.

 

So far, WoT has managed to offer the most detailed and enthralling world I had ever seen. Everything about it was fascinating, especially the Age of Legend: the utopian society, the perfect world who hid ugliness below its varnish and crumbled apart when given the chance to. The Breaking of the World, where the men all went mad and destroyed the entire landscape was scary. I wished Jordan had developed more the Forsaken and offer them a more realistic outlay.

 

 

The way I see it, in tWoK it's obvious early on that Kaladin can't go any lower and so the only way is up. It's obvious he's doing the right thing so it's easy to cheer him on. In WoR, though things start out okay it slowly goes downhill and instead of cheering him on we're hoping that he'll change course. I don't find his situation to be any more or any less contrived that in tWoK it's just that he's heading in a disagreeable direction so as readers we want to reject it. I thought all his problems were foreshadowed both in tWoK and early in WoR - I was not surprised to see Kaladin go in a bad direction based on the early part of the book.

 

I agree that the guy needs a break though. So far, I don't think he's gotten even a single week where he's basically content (let alone happy).

 

The story of Kaladin in WoK was enthralling. You know he has reached rock bottom and yet he just keeps trying. Each time something new and unexpected was thrown in his way, he looked at it and figured out how to use it to his advantage, such as when his Bridge was forced onto permanent chasm duty in order to break their spirit. Moreover, Kaladin's story in WoK works because he actually succeeds. He has enough hardships on the way there, it feels realistic, but enough success you are happy to read his story.

 

The best (or anti) parallel I could make is Robin Hobb Soldier's Son trilogy... Nevare's life goes from good, to bad, to ugly, to just plain awful. He keeps trying and yet, it never gets better. These books had to be the most depressing books I had ever read. I love hardships, but hard work has to pay of at some point. I was glad Jordan did not went this way with Kaladin and gave him the opportunity to rise up.

 

In WoR, his story line was not all unexpected. I guess I was just unhappy to see him suffer so much as it seemed unnecessary. I wanted Kaladin to keep on getting better, not worst. The guy deserves some happiness... and this is exactly what I want to see in the next book. Badass Kaladin happily reuniting with his family, saving Heartstone and unlocking the Oathgate at Kohlinar. He'll still doubt, he'll be depressed from time to time, but this time around, he'll know who to deal with it.

 

 

I think this is highly likely. I don't think Kaladin is over being depressed (particularly given how bad the global situation is) but I think he is probably over his biggest issues (maybe Shallan is too) and so it's time to shift the focus a bit.

 

I agree it is time to shift the focus.

 

 

I think it's fine to say it's a symbol to readers but I checked the flashbacks and couldn't find any indication of Shallan attaching any emotions to the necklace at all.

 

As I said, I may be grasping straws here, but the chain struck me as an important symbol. I know Shallan did not think of it in these terms, but I thought she may if given the chance.

 

 

 

I think if we had seen scenes through Adolin's viewpoint prior to him finding out that Shallan is alive I would expect to see what you say above. And more. I would also expect a lot of very dark thoughts aimed at Sadeas... which is exactly why we don't get such a scene as it would have blatantly telegraphed his last scene in the book.

 

I think Brandon is careful to who's viewpoints he chose for a given scene. So far, he has not given us Adolin's POV during his meeting with Shallan. I suspect there is a reason for that, just like he did not give us Renarin as it would have been impossible to pull of without mentioning the screaming Blade and the growing bond with Glys. Too much of Adolin openly hating Sadeas would have indeed been spoilerish.

 

 

I

And yet... do his feelings of guilt and shame give him any right to make demands of Shallan? No. Does it give him the right to make assumptions about how she feels? No. Does it give him the right to insist on controlling her safety the way he wants? No. Do his feelings mean she should simply accept them and suppress her own? No.

 

Is he actually doing any of that? No... but he's getting close. Close enough that it triggers a bad response from Shallan because it's uncomfortably close to some of the abuse she suffered for years and years - she shivers from the mere thought of it!

 

I'm not trying to fault either of them. Adolin is expressing his emotions strongly and clearly. Nothing wrong with that in many cases but in this case he's being a bit too aggressive for Shallan. It would certainly have helped if he knew more about her, particularly her past, but she hasn't been telling. He learns a bit here and adjusts his expectations.

 

I very much doubt Shallan wanted to react the way she did. I think this would be a good example of where having a very good memory can have downsides - it's harder to get over trauma. You say that it "may have been understandable given her past" - I would say it can only be understood by her past. To Shallan, personal freedom has become very precious and she is very protective of it. Yes, Adolin doesn't act like he's about to lock her up but he does say "We’ll have to make it so that you aren’t ever in that kind of position again" (emphasis added). Well, from a practical point of view, how are you going to achieve that? Easiest way would be to lock her up! There's no reasonable way to achieve those stated goals and still allow Shallan to have the freedom she needs. So I see this scene as being a case of conflicting desires.

Going back to Shallan being self-aware enough, I would say the following part of that scene indicates it: "She breathed in and out, calming herself. She reached out and took him by the hand" and this is followed up by "Shallan raised his hand and wove his fingers between her own."

 

She deliberately acts to calm herself. She helps Adolin calm down too and wants him to understand. In the end, does Adolin have an issue with her reaction? No. (Or at least, not that I can see)

 

I did not see him as making demands or having assumptions... Shallan has fallen into a chasm and lived through a Highstorm while being down there. It is safe assume 99.9% of people would be incredibly traumatized by such an ordeal, including Adolin himself.  The fact he thus promises he would protect her and make sure she is never placed in such a position again is not a sign of control, but a sign of love and care. It was completely impossible for him to gather Shallan had actually like her trip down there.

 

I do not see him as getting anywhere close to the abuse his father has had on her. He wants to protect her and avoid her being put into danger, a reasonable assumption as, again, 99.9999999% of girls would want to hear such things. Protecting her does not equal suppressing her liberty, but it is the excuse her father has used to justify his actions towards her. He was doing it for her good, for her protection, therefore Adolin's jest triggered a bad memory.

 

I do not read the sentence you highlighted the same way as you do. He does not want her to be put into a position of danger ever again. How does he achieve that? I think there is a world between locking her in a golden cage and making his best to put her safety first, which is exactly what he failed to do before the chasm scene. He was enticed in her, happy and... distracted. Moreover, he has let the threat posed by Sadeas roamed free. One of the reasons I believe we did not get his POV then is because he must have been internally ranting against Sadeas, repeating to himself over and over again he had to be dealt with. He wants to put her safety first. Adolin has established himself as the protector of his family a long time ago. He loves them and see it as his duty to see them safe. He has failed Shallan. Did he really mean he wanted to sabotage her liberty or did he mean he would deal with Sadeas once and for all? Loving and caring Adolin would never ever lock his loved ones in a tower, but he will work hard to eliminate threats to their life.

 

I really cannot fault Adolin here. Honestly, I thought he was being a sweetheart, moreover since after realizing he said the wrong thing, he backed of. He was baffled and he did not understand, but he did not press the issue. He obliged to her desires. The other reason we did not get his POV could be Shallan's reaction made him doubt about their relationship. Let's not forget all of this relationships collapse rather quickly and he does not understand why. He never see it coming. When Shallan goes ballast on him, what else is he to think then she may not want to pursue with the engagement? Subconsciously, he may have even expect such an event. Brandon may not have wanted to highlight too strongly Adolin's own insecurities in WoR.

 

It is true she did calm herself down and reinstated her desire to pursue the relationship. Adolin does not appear traumatized by the event, but could it be the seed of future doubts on his behalf?

 

 

I agree. Since you say "of sorts" do you mean that it's not a test that is given by the spren just one that is observed by them? In which case I also agree.

 

When Pattern is talking about Shallan merely cracking instead of breaking, the way he is talking about how human minds break it reads like Shallan would normally have been expected to break from her situation. Shallan resists. She fights back. She doesn't give up though she gets very close to it at one point (when she becomes the "perfect daughter"). Within this context, I'd say that it's giving up that breaks people for real.

 

I believe, back in the day, the sprens may have tested their potential knights in such ways. There were hundreds of knights. I sincerely doubt all of them had pitiful childhoods ala Kaladin and Shallan. I thus think their dedication must have been put to test in an ordeal who's goal was to crack them enough for the bond to operate. This is pure speculation though, but I tend to think the Radians of old were an organized group and sprens did noty just roam free looking for being like they presently do.

 

I do agree giving up is what breaks the people, in the end. Kaladin nearly gave up, but changed his mind. Shallan did the same. We do not know about the others.

 

 

 

At the end of WoR, I think Shallan is one step from becoming a full Radiant.  Putting it another way, there's only one more "Truth" to come. Does it have to be the biggest, deepest, darkest truth of all? Nope, I don't think the bond works that way but it's more like what we expect of a story. Certainly fighting parents can ruin any child but compared to the other secrets in Shallan's past it seems a bit tame - it would probably not feel dramatic enough and so be a bit of a let down.

 

So, I see two options: the first is that there is in fact some deep secret further in Shallan's past, something she would genuinely struggle to admit even to herself (fighting between parents doesn't seem hard to admit compared to killing your parents). The second is that rather than the last "Truth" be about what she can admit to herself it's about what she can admit to others, in particular people she cares about. I prefer the second option but the following creepy idea is an example for the first option:

 

I have had the thought for a long time that maybe Shallan had another sibling and that sibling died and Shallan blamed herself. My recent idea was to take the concept to another level: Shallan had an identical twin sister yet they were quite different in personality and Shallan was always being criticised by her mother and her sister always being praised. One day, the twin dies in an accident that nobody else but Shallan sees. Shallan is not to blame at all but she lies about who died - she's so desperate to be loved that she pretends to be the sister who was always praised and that it's the "bad" girl who died. So in fact, "Shallan" is not Shallan's true name but a name she stole.

 

Creepy huh? I should add that there's absolutely not the slightest bit of evidence for this in the text (or any Word of Brandon).

 

:huh: Very creepy but I like it... I would have never thought of something of the sorts... I merely thought her parents were simply not a happy couple and young Shallan used her drawing skill to create the lie of the perfect family, which then drew Pattern to her... However, I do see how her pretending to be the perfect sister is a very strong lie................

 

My thoughts on the last truth were it would have to deal with her present life. So far, she has always followed the path drawn for her. First, she followed her father. Then, she set to meet Jasnah with the goal to safe her family. After befriending Jasnah and being honest with her, she goes with her plan to have her marry Adolin to ensure her family's safety. The rest is just events. I was thinking she may need to put her foot down and decide what she wants, for real. Adolin. Does she want to marry him, yes or no? My inner giggling girl have somehow always wanted her last truth to be about her love life, her future. Making a decision. By herself. For herself.

 

 

I

From her own point of view, I don't see Shallan ever putting herself at the top (and I'm pretty sure Brandon has no interest in unbeatable characters). I would also say that right now, Shallan believes in Jasnah more than Jasnah believes in herself. I would say that that is a large part of what lead Shallan to success with Urithiru - she never worries about the possibility of Jasnah being wrong and instead spends most of the book catching up to where Jasnah had already gotten to. It gives her a different perspective to the other scholars and also means that doubts don't hold her back. Fortunately for her, Jasnah was indeed correct. In later books we might see a "repeat" but instead Jasnah is wrong and Shallan fails spectacularly. Shallan has a tendency not to think things through to the very end.

 

Longer term I expect to see a variety of smarts: remember the two aged ardents in tWoK - one was good at theory and the other at experimentation. Some characters will be better at certain things than others and there will be nobody who is above everyone else. For example, Jasnah seems the type to question every assumption, even assumptions most scholars don't even realise are assumptions, and because of that will analyse things nobody else thinks are worth bothering with. I think she's also good at "root cause analysis" or otherwise digging down to the true underlying details. Putting it another way, she's good at "deep" problems and doing "deep" analysis (probably often using a "top down" approach). I see Shallan taking a more "bottom up" or more intuitive approach. There's also more than research - there's communicating that research and also coming up with solutions.

 

No she doesn't, but from a reader's point-of-vue, she seems slightly too perfect. I have no doubts she'll have failure in the next books. As for finding Urithiru, her puzzle solving skills and her memory abilities were keys to unlocking the mystery. Jasnah may not have succeeded because she is too careful and because she lacked the proper skill set to complete the task.

 

Jasnah is a definite INTJ, always doubting, never believing. Shallan, on the other hand, is a believer. She jumps feet join into a task, does not think it through and relies on her wits to keep herself out of trouble.

 

 

 

I can definitely see Dalinar and Adolin in those roles.

 

For historical Lightweavers, it doesn't feel like spying was a typical role for them. Maybe it was and they just kept it secret of course and this will be revealed in time. However, the new Radiants don't have the old Radiants traditions or expectations - they can simply focus on what works. More like "Radiants Rebooted". I can certainly see Shallan picking up a variety of skills rather than being a specialist.

 

Dalinar already is the War General. Adolin has been prepped for years to walk into these shoes.

 

Lightweavers could also be used to create massive illusions on the battle field.

 

 

IKaladin and Shallan aren't going to be the "flashback character" again so book 3 is definitely going to have a major focus on some other character. Hard to be certain about much more than that but from what Brandon has said in various interviews I'm expecting a consistent wide cast of characters but with varying emphasis between them.

 

Brandon did say SA was three stories put in one: flashback, interludes and main story arc.

 

In the first two books, we had both Kaladin and Shallan as the flashback and the main featured KR. They also heavily dwell into the main story arc. The next book will most likely not follow this pattern. I have no idea who the featured order and KR will be, but it most likely won't be any of the suggested flashbacks characters. I know the common assumption has always been the next book will feature Szeth's flashback and Szeth's as the main KR. I have now come to seriously doubt this affirmation... For one, there is no certainty Szeth will ever become a KR (and I hope he won't). He sure is not on the path by the end of WoR. For second, Szeth is not part of the main story arc: he is a minor character gravitating around the main story arc. Putting him up front in the next book would remove all focus from our beloved cast. I doubt we'll see that. He will most likely grow in importance, but not in book 3.

 

My guess for the next feature order is quite out of the box: Truthwatchers and Renarin. Brandon did say there would be more of Renarin in the next book. By the end of WoR, he is one of the most frustrating character as he is completely unexplained. His story plot will most likely strongly revolve around his family and his brother. People expect Renarin won't be feature until the second arc because his flashback book is not planned until then, BUT the flashbacks and the featured order do not need to align. In fact, they most likely won't again.

 

Other wild guess is Adolin, his Blade and Edgedancers, but it may be too soon. I doubt it will be Dalinar (but it could be), but I feel his flashbacks are a strong possibility.

[kari-no-sugata]

By the time WoT reached its lows, I had grown attached to the characters and the story. I do not mind lows in epic fantasy so much, as long as I am able to care about a few characters. Most characters had lows and highs for me in WoT. I started the series loving Rand, down to hating him and back to liking him towards the end. I rather liked Egwene in the beginning , but I hated her in the last ones. Perrin reached a high for me when he saved Two Rivers from the Orcs, calling the villagers out for refusing refuge to harmless Thinkers.

I don't know if I would have given up on the series but I did stop reading forums and stuff because I didn't want to read so much complaining. In some ways I wanted to defend the series but I decided to ignore that stuff and just try to enjoy the books when I was reading them and otherwise put them out of my mind.

 

Yeah, Rand builds up nicely at first but then starts going darker and darker. That was the main point of his overall story but it was quite painful at times. I don't think I liked Egwene in the first book, was pretty impressed with her in the second but she was more of a mixed bag for me overall though she had some nice high points near the end. Perrin was same for me - peaked when he saved the Two Rivers. I always liked (but never adored) Min. Aviendha was interesting, exotic and spiky early on but she rather faded into the background after "leaving" Rand. I don't think I ever enjoyed Elayne much.

 

So far, WoT has managed to offer the most detailed and enthralling world I had ever seen. Everything about it was fascinating, especially the Age of Legend: the utopian society, the perfect world who hid ugliness below its varnish and crumbled apart when given the chance to. The Breaking of the World, where the men all went mad and destroyed the entire landscape was scary. I wished Jordan had developed more the Forsaken and offer them a more realistic outlay.

 

Agreed.

 

I really hope we get to see some significant aspects of historical Roshar. I expect we will when the books cover flashbacks of two of the Heralds. Hopefully Brandon will write some short stories too. I find the cultural changes after the Recreance to be fascinating and would like to see some scenes. I'd also particularly like to see what things were like when the first spren bonded Surgebinders started appearing, early in Roshar's history.

 

In WoR, his story line was not all unexpected. I guess I was just unhappy to see him suffer so much as it seemed unnecessary. I wanted Kaladin to keep on getting better, not worst. The guy deserves some happiness... and this is exactly what I want to see in the next book. Badass Kaladin happily reuniting with his family, saving Heartstone and unlocking the Oathgate at Kohlinar. He'll still doubt, he'll be depressed from time to time, but this time around, he'll know who to deal with it.

 

I remember when originally reading "The Hero of Ages" feeling quite depressed at how bleak things were. I read it in one sitting but it was still quite painful at times. But the ending was amazing - probably the most satisfying ending I've ever read for an epic fantasy series. Kaladin's story in WoR is a bit like that but I didn't find it so satisfying in the end - though the mid-air mid-storm duel was amazing and felt similarly cinematic to HoA's set piece fight.

 

The way I see it, Kaladin's successes in tWoK and failures in WoR are flip-sides of the same thing: the strength of his emotions. I might be wrong but I see similar parallels with the other characters (in that their main strengths and weaknesses are flip-sides of the same thing). I think as Kaladin progresses as a Radiant he will find a better and better balance and learn to channel his emotions effectively more of the time. Dalinar certainly thinks that Kaladin will become a fine leader once he gets the hang of his emotions.

 

Your sketch of what Kaladin could get up to in the next book is quite similar to mine though I think the situation will be quite bleak "on the ground".

 

I did not see him as making demands or having assumptions... Shallan has fallen into a chasm and lived through a Highstorm while being down there. It is safe assume 99.9% of people would be incredibly traumatized by such an ordeal, including Adolin himself.  The fact he thus promises he would protect her and make sure she is never placed in such a position again is not a sign of control, but a sign of love and care. It was completely impossible for him to gather Shallan had actually like her trip down there.

 

I do not see him as getting anywhere close to the abuse his father has had on her. He wants to protect her and avoid her being put into danger, a reasonable assumption as, again, 99.9999999% of girls would want to hear such things. Protecting her does not equal suppressing her liberty, but it is the excuse her father has used to justify his actions towards her. He was doing it for her good, for her protection, therefore Adolin's jest triggered a bad memory.

 

I do not read the sentence you highlighted the same way as you do. He does not want her to be put into a position of danger ever again. How does he achieve that? I think there is a world between locking her in a golden cage and making his best to put her safety first, which is exactly what he failed to do before the chasm scene. He was enticed in her, happy and... distracted. Moreover, he has let the threat posed by Sadeas roamed free. One of the reasons I believe we did not get his POV then is because he must have been internally ranting against Sadeas, repeating to himself over and over again he had to be dealt with. He wants to put her safety first. Adolin has established himself as the protector of his family a long time ago. He loves them and see it as his duty to see them safe. He has failed Shallan. Did he really mean he wanted to sabotage her liberty or did he mean he would deal with Sadeas once and for all? Loving and caring Adolin would never ever lock his loved ones in a tower, but he will work hard to eliminate threats to their life.

 

I really cannot fault Adolin here. Honestly, I thought he was being a sweetheart, moreover since after realizing he said the wrong thing, he backed of. He was baffled and he did not understand, but he did not press the issue. He obliged to her desires. The other reason we did not get his POV could be Shallan's reaction made him doubt about their relationship. Let's not forget all of this relationships collapse rather quickly and he does not understand why. He never see it coming. When Shallan goes ballast on him, what else is he to think then she may not want to pursue with the engagement? Subconsciously, he may have even expect such an event. Brandon may not have wanted to highlight too strongly Adolin's own insecurities in WoR.

 

It is true she did calm herself down and reinstated her desire to pursue the relationship. Adolin does not appear traumatized by the event, but could it be the seed of future doubts on his behalf?

I'm really curious about you saying "Adolin's jest" - Shallan definitely takes Adolin's words seriously here and I don't see a way to interpret them otherwise. I don't see how it could be a "jest" so can you expand a bit by what you mean?

 

Let me try a different approach to what I'm arguing: if we consider Adolin's tone and way of speaking with Shallan prior to this, I would say he is being polite, gentle etc. He uses a reasonable amount of sentence softening, asks Shallan for her opinion, phrases requests/suggestions clearly as such and so on. He is displaying emotions clearly but more like a soft breeze. It's not weak or wishy-washy, but refined, I guess he would say. To Shallan this is probably quite soothing. In comparison, Shallan's father is pretty much on the other end of the scale: he uses demanding language or blunt orders, openly threatens etc. In addition, his emotions are displayed forcibly and menacingly - more like a storm. Everything is pretty much "do what I say" and "your opinion doesn't count".

 

If we then look at how Adolin is speaking in this part of the scene: he's using no sentence softening, he's not asking Shallan for her opinion, he's not phrasing it as a request or suggestion and he's speaking fiercely. He's certainly not ordering Shallan but he comes across as being very insistent. He is certainly not like her father but just briefly, he is close enough to be a reminder.

 

Back in tWoK, the second time Shallan meets with Jasnah, Shallan leaves the room in tears and has to sit down and compose herself. Shallan is stronger now but those memories of her father are still painful.

To re-iterate, I'm not faulting Adolin here though I do think he's making some small and simple mistakes (I've done similar things a few times). In a sense, it's more of a "presentation" issue - he's being over-eager. I don't think Shallan has any problem at all with his desire to protect her - she's not rejecting that! But if you take what he says literally and combine that with his enthusiasm it suddenly sounds threatening to someone with Shallan's experiences. I'm very sure this came across differently to what he intended - I'm not sure what he would have actually done in practice if Shallan had just smiled and nodded but I would expect the majority of people to be okay with it in the circumstances. It's just unfortunate for him that Shallan is very particular about personal liberty.

 

Us readers know a lot more about both of them but the characters themselves don't. Adolin can't see into Shallan's mind and know how she would react to certain things or why. Likewise for Shallan - she can't see into Adolin's mind and know exactly what he would and wouldn't do, though I think part of the reason why Shallan recovers reasonably quickly is she knows this is atypical for Adolin . To me, both characters are being true to their own feelings here and don't understand each other well enough yet, which is why I describe this scene as being a case of conflicting desires.

 

 

I believe, back in the day, the sprens may have tested their potential knights in such ways. There were hundreds of knights. I sincerely doubt all of them had pitiful childhoods ala Kaladin and Shallan. I thus think their dedication must have been put to test in an ordeal who's goal was to crack them enough for the bond to operate. This is pure speculation though, but I tend to think the Radians of old were an organized group and sprens did noty just roam free looking for being like they presently do.

 

I think there would have always been a lot of variety in how bonds form. I suspect that spren do have some skills to find suitable candidates "in the wild" - Shallan is in the middle of nowhere but Pattern still found her. I'm quite uneasy with the idea that there might have been formal methods to "crack" people though, even if prospective candidates had a rough idea of what was coming. It would be interesting to know how often Nahel bonds only partially formed and never got to the first Oath and how many got from the first Oath to full Radiant. From what I've seen, it feels to me that the spren have a more trial-and-error approach.

 

:huh: Very creepy but I like it... I would have never thought of something of the sorts... I merely thought her parents were simply not a happy couple and young Shallan used her drawing skill to create the lie of the perfect family, which then drew Pattern to her... However, I do see how her pretending to be the perfect sister is a very strong lie................

 

Yeah, it's all rather curious... which is why it's a bit frustrating that we never saw further into Shallan's past. Based on the available hints to date, what you suggest above is quite similar to my own imaginings of what seems most likely. It just doesn't seem likely to have a strong enough impact for Shallan's last "truth" though which is why I started imagining other possibilities. Shallan currently looks set to be the first to become a full Radiant so it should be a strong scene.

 

 

My thoughts on the last truth were it would have to deal with her present life. So far, she has always followed the path drawn for her. First, she followed her father. Then, she set to meet Jasnah with the goal to safe her family. After befriending Jasnah and being honest with her, she goes with her plan to have her marry Adolin to ensure her family's safety. The rest is just events. I was thinking she may need to put her foot down and decide what she wants, for real. Adolin. Does she want to marry him, yes or no? My inner giggling girl have somehow always wanted her last truth to be about her love life, her future. Making a decision. By herself. For herself.

 

Hehe, well, it certainly can be fun to imagine various possibilities even if you know they're probably implausible within the rules of the story

 

I haven't imagined something like that but I have thought of the possibility of how having Pattern around could subvert the rom-com type archetype where someone is in denial (or love-triangle scenario)... as in, he makes it impossible.

 

I wouldn't say Shallan has always been following the path drawn for her. For example, the plan to become Jasnah's ward was all her own idea. At the end of tWoK Shallan made the decision confront a hostile Jasnah to join her cause for real. In WoR while deciding to continue Jasnah's work does seem like following someone else's path, Shallan consciously made the decision to keep going and since she very much does it her own way it's more like she's targeting the same destination via her own particular path.

 

But anyway... I think I see what you're getting at... though I don't think she'll be settling down to a particular type of life or career any time soon - she's still young. Shallan seems to have quite a range of skills and possible things she can do, more than most characters. I expect her to apprentice to Navani in book 3 and Hoid eventually with maybe others on the way. I don't expect her to have properly settled down by the end of the first half of the Stormlight Achieve though we'll probably see some strong hints. When the action starts up in the second half I'm expecting her to be in quite a settled situation (ie married with children), assuming she survived the first half of course.

 

 

No she doesn't, but from a reader's point-of-vue, she seems slightly too perfect. I have no doubts she'll have failure in the next books. As for finding Urithiru, her puzzle solving skills and her memory abilities were keys to unlocking the mystery. Jasnah may not have succeeded because she is too careful and because she lacked the proper skill set to complete the task.

 

I'm sure Jasnah could have solved it, just not how Shallan solved it - it's certainly not a problem that only Shallan could have solved. The main question is whether she could have solved it in time because she would have probably used more methodical methods (which I think is why the other scholars aren't able to contribute too much in the final part - it's not a situation that they're used to). On the other hand she would likely have been better prepared for it.

 

Regarding Shallan being "slightly too perfect": it's kinda odd because I know what you're getting at but the deeper I've looked into it the more mistakes I see her making or the longer it takes for her to realise something than I initially thought. For example, she doesn't figure out how to make her Lightweaving work reliably until chapter 47 - she has a lot of failures along the way. She's able to make it work before that but she couldn't be sure in advance that it would in fact work. I think the reason why we don't notice the mistakes so much is that most of the time those mistakes are not immediately or obviously an issue and Shallan herself tends not to dwell on them - she doesn't seem too bothered about making mistakes unless they impact someone else.

 

Lightweavers could also be used to create massive illusions on the battle field.

I wonder how often they did that during previous Desolations. There's all sorts of ways it could be useful... but we've yet to see any actual indication of historical Lightweavers doing such things.

 

Sometimes I wonder how pre-Recreance Radiants would view the new ones. I suspect Kaladin is probably using his skills in familiar ways to the old Radiants. With Shallan, I wouldn't be surprised if the old Lightweavers would either be shocked or amused at most of what Shallan is doing. For Lift, I'm expecting a lot of face-palming

 

 

Brandon did say SA was three stories put in one: flashback, interludes and main story arc.

 

In the first two books, we had both Kaladin and Shallan as the flashback and the main featured KR. They also heavily dwell into the main story arc. The next book will most likely not follow this pattern. I have no idea who the featured order and KR will be, but it most likely won't be any of the suggested flashbacks characters. I know the common assumption has always been the next book will feature Szeth's flashback and Szeth's as the main KR. I have now come to seriously doubt this affirmation... For one, there is no certainty Szeth will ever become a KR (and I hope he won't). He sure is not on the path by the end of WoR. For second, Szeth is not part of the main story arc: he is a minor character gravitating around the main story arc. Putting him up front in the next book would remove all focus from our beloved cast. I doubt we'll see that. He will most likely grow in importance, but not in book 3.

 

My guess for the next feature order is quite out of the box: Truthwatchers and Renarin. Brandon did say there would be more of Renarin in the next book. By the end of WoR, he is one of the most frustrating character as he is completely unexplained. His story plot will most likely strongly revolve around his family and his brother. People expect Renarin won't be feature until the second arc because his flashback book is not planned until then, BUT the flashbacks and the featured order do not need to align. In fact, they most likely won't again.

 

Other wild guess is Adolin, his Blade and Edgedancers, but it may be too soon. I doubt it will be Dalinar (but it could be), but I feel his flashbacks are a strong possibility.

 

Brandon has recently stated that he's currently torn between Dalinar, Szeth and Eshonai being the flashback character for book 3 - he's pretty certain about those being the flashback characters for the next 3 books. He said he's going to write the flashback sequences for those 3 and then decide who is most suitable for the next book. I'm pretty sure Brandon has confirmed that the flashback character will not necessarily coincide with the focus Radiant order. He's also stated that ones of the flashback characters (for the series as a whole) will be dead at the time of the book (Eshonai, I suspect).

 

Regarding Szeth in the next book, I don't know how big a part he will play. It may take him some time to get all the way back to Shinovar. Will he get his revenge in book 3 or will it carry over into book 4? Incidentally, I've sometimes wondered if Jasnah is heading for Shinovar too - it's not necessarily the case that she's heading for Urithiru.

 

It's hard to say where Szeth is going longer term. Having Nightblood would likely make forming a spren bond very difficult, for example.