Fifth of Daybreak Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) I was discussing Firefight with a friend, when we got on the subject of Obliteration. She voiced a complaint that too often when an openly religious character appears in the book, they are insane. It got me thinking about Obliteration, and I'd have to completely disagree that he's insane at all. Obliteration is the only sane Epic. This may seem counter-intuitive, after all, most epics created small kingdoms, and became tyrants. That's something that happens in every day life anyways, people are oppressed and killed in volume, but only the absolutely crazy ones kill civilians in mass. But that's using logic applied to ordinary humans, along all ranges of the spectrum from humanity's best to its worst. Epics are a different story. Every single epic that we've been exposed to were corrupted by their power, and began to abuse it, simply by right of power and conquest. They believe themselves to be superior, and above humanity, and so doing deserve their position, and to be free form consequences. Basically, they are all classic sociopaths, acting with care for consequence, but really to no purpose other than a self serving one. Obliteration is different. Obliteration might have taken a town at first, and succumbed to the power, but with his quoting of scripture, and the few scraps of normal conversation we hear from him, he isn't a meglomaniac. He didn't burn down Houston and the other cities because of some obsession with destruction. He was acting with a purpose. Every single other Epic took their abilities as some granted right, but he took it as a call to greater action, even if he was wrong about what that action would be. In his conversations, he presents himself as a horseman of the apocalypse, which honestly, isn't that far of a stretch considering is powers don't seem to have much allowance for constructive use (I could be wrong about that, I'll admit a heat sink would be valuable in certain situations, as well as possible welding and bonding capabilities, but very limited as compared to his destructive capabilities.) He mentions that all of humanity has the taint of Epics and needs to be cleansed. This isn't someone acting out of self preservation or self interest. Obliteration is the only epic who seems to be called to a higher purpose. He's the only one who took his powers, and found an outside rationality to their existence, and then set himself to the task he believed had been given to him. Even all of Regalia's machinations seemed geared only to corrupt another individual, though her mentioning of the angel and such might lend her some credibility in the same theory. Still, I feel like her driving motivation was more the satisfaction of seeing her old friend turned nemesis destroyed and twisted than acquiescing to a higher power. Obliteration is the only sane Epic. Edited January 12, 2015 by Fifth of Daybreak 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 He is not sane. A sane person would not destroy millions of people. He is obviously psychotic and has some very serious mental issues 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 A sane person who has been given reason to destroy millions of people will do so. In a world like this one, all bets are off with what's logical. Something happened to Obliteration to make him more focused on religion than his own powers and glory, and something about the way he views God's will led him to blow up a lot of innocent people. What he did is not right, but that doesn't mean it wasn't logical from the information he was or thought he was working with. Obliteration is still nutty and evil, like the vast majority of people in this setting, but to say he's every bit as cracked and unstable as the other epics without understanding his motives takes it a bit far. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 If it was just to do that in his mind then he is DEFINITELY not sane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vineyarddawg Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't think Obliteration is any more sane than any other High Epic. I do think, however, that the Bible quoting thing will have something to do with his weakness. Not sure what direction it'll take, though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiLyghtSansSparkles Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 He said that "the seed of the Epic is inside each one." Epics act out of fear, right? So maybe he destroys because he fears the darkness inside each human being. Declaring himself the "cleanser" and one of the Four Horsemen would thus be his reaction to that fear. Is he sane? No more or less than any other High Epic, I'd say. Just more extreme in his goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted January 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Let me attack this from a different angle. I really enjoyed Brandon's discussions on morality in WoK, so I'm going to analyze Obliteration using the philosophies discussed. The Philosophy of Starkness: Kill or be killed-This is my least favorite of the philosophies, so I won't put much effort into justifying his actions using it, though it does in a way. Philosophy of Purpose: Actions are not evil; intent is evil.-Obliteration's intent is to carry out God's will. Philosophy of Ideals: Removing evil was the ultimate moral-"The seed of the Epic is inside." From all proof we have at hand to date except for Megan, Epic powers are pretty evil, and he is removing its source, humans. Philosophy of Aspiration: If the goal is worthy, then the steps taken are worthwhile, even is some of them-on their own-are reprehensible-Obliteration's goal is worthy, in fact, it seems to be the same goal as the Reckoner's just on a broader scale. It all depends on how you define humanity and Epics. Obliteration's definition, knowing more than we do, is that humans are just pre-epics, and need to be dealt with. I'm not saying I think his actions are moral, but I think they are justifiable in several regards, and are even noble, and more sane, when compared to to other Epics. As far as the story is concerned, we don't even know that he's wrong about being an angel of death until we read the next book. Now I'm sure that won't be the case, but it is not outside the realm of possibilities. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RawToast225 Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Just because you have a direction, purpose, and kill instead of being killed doesn't mean you aren't sane. It really just means that you are intense. Intense individuals are often insane. Kelsier, for example, was nuts and passionate about his insanity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Joe in the Bush Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I think Trevor is Correct in his definition. Obliteration is definitely Sane. He's willing to sacrifice to achive what he believes to be right. (His rulership, his people) He has a powerful goal in mind, and he believes that the ends justify the means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddyRed Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Did Obliteration always quote bible verses, or was that something that happened after Regalia's intervention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junior Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Eddy - It's not clear. I don't think we have enough information about that. However, there are two items that suggest he did. The first is his "inspiration" regarding the "meaning" of the four horsemen of the apocalypse. This "inspiration" almost certainly happened before he arrived in Babilar. The second is Regalia's comment regarding how Obliteration had never recovered from receiving his powers. This also suggests that his current mental state is not a new thing. On an unrelated note, I think Obliteration's nightmares are his prime motivator. Based on his final conversation with David, I got the impression that Obliteration is being directly influenced by something in his dreams. He dreams about something that he's either trying to prevent, or trying to bring about. And David's information about nightmares at the end helped Obliteration to realize that what he was dreaming isn't necessarily the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I think Trevor is Correct in his definition. Obliteration is definitely Sane. He's willing to sacrifice to achive what he believes to be right. (His rulership, his people) He has a powerful goal in mind, and he believes that the ends justify the means. sane adjective \ˈsān\ : having a healthy mind : able to think normally : based on reason or good judgment : rational or sensibleThis is the dictionary definition of sane. A healthy mind would definitely not think killing millions of people are ok. That is not rational or sensible. Obliteration is in now way sane. He is psychotic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted January 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 sane adjective \ˈsān\ : having a healthy mind : able to think normally : based on reason or good judgment : rational or sensible This is the dictionary definition of sane. A healthy mind would definitely not think killing millions of people are ok. That is not rational or sensible. Obliteration is in now way sane. He is psychotic! Well, is faith not rational? I have to say, that it's not that irrational a thought to have. You're given incredible destructive powers that also corrupt and cause evil in the world. A voice that's not your own tells you things. You connect that with parables from the bible and scripture. Obliteration is Abraham, but God never told him not to kill his son. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Well, is faith not rational? I have to say, that it's not that irrational a thought to have. You're given incredible destructive powers that also corrupt and cause evil in the world. A voice that's not your own tells you things. You connect that with parables from the bible and scripture. Obliteration is Abraham, but God never told him not to kill his son. It isn't rational to kill people for your faith. Do you think it was rational when those extremists flew planes into the Twin Towers on 9/11/2001 for their religion, killing thousands? Because I don't think so. It isn't right, or rational, to commit a massacre for your religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Joe in the Bush Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Rational by our standards or theirs? Not by ours, but by theirs in was. For them their Religion was their highest calling, so dying to further their religion was completely rational. But by our standards, it isn't rational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Rational by our standards or theirs? Not by ours, but by theirs in was. For them their Religion was their highest calling, so dying to further their religion was completely rational. But by our standards, it isn't rational. You can't possibly believe that massacre is ok unless there is something mentally wrong with you (a psychosis be it psychopathy or sociopathy). And if the person's mental health is not on point then they are, by definition, not sane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 You can't possibly believe that massacre is ok unless there is something mentally wrong with you (a psychosis be it psychopathy or sociopathy). And if the person's mental health is not on point then they are, by definition, not sane. This is Epics that we're discussing though. I think it's more rational to massacre because you think it's God's will than it is to massacre simply because you have the power to do so with impunity. I'm not arguing that he's right, but that he's the closest Epic to sanity we've been shown who isn't a gifter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 This is Epics that we're discussing though. I think it's more rational to massacre because you think it's God's will than it is to massacre simply because you have the power to do so with impunity. I'm not arguing that he's right, but that he's the closest Epic to sanity we've been shown who isn't a gifter. I see your point, but Megan is far more sane than Obliteration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Joe in the Bush Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Yeah, Megan is definitely more Sane. As for the 9/11 problem, I personally believe that what they did is horrible, But Gj, if you found a group of Demons who were terrorizing your people, and you had the chance to destroy them all at the cost of your life, would you do it? Because that's what they thought they were doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fifth of Daybreak Posted January 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Megan had the advantage of Epic rehab. I'd be very curious to see how she acted before joining the Reckoners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturtles6 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 Whether he's sane or not is a hard to answer question, but he is definitely driven differently than other Epics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted January 14, 2015 Report Share Posted January 14, 2015 gj, from looking at the way you're approaching this, you appear to be confusing sane and justified. I lack information, but for the sake of argument, I'd argue that Obliteration is, even if only barely, sane. He does things using logic based on what he knows. From what he can tell, people have the potential for evil and it's his job to cleanse it, or whatever it is that he believes. Dropping back to the 9/11 example, those people could totally have been sane. That was the point. Not that what they did was right, because it wasn't. it was horrible. But with the information a bomber has available to them, an attack like that is logical. We're wondering if Obliteration is more alright in the head than other epics, not if what he's doing it right. What he's doing is wrong, he killed a whole bunch of cities! But there's still a chance he's doing this for reasons other than Calamaty's corruption, which would make him the most sane, albeit the least redeemable, Epic. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuchapel Posted January 15, 2015 Report Share Posted January 15, 2015 I think the easier answer is he is insane. He was kinda sane at first, took over Houston....Cared for his "Flock" for some amount of time.....used his powers too much...became crazy... saw the corruption in his city.... decided that humans couldn't be redeemed (like his old pastor days) and to kill them instead. Now he goes from city to city judging humanity on behalf of god and the arch angel that gave him his power. Thats why he didnt care about giving Regalia access to his powers...because it would only speed up the human cleansing. something David said made him snap and gain a greater understanding and regain a shred of sanity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 I think the easier answer is he is insane. He was kinda sane at first, took over Houston....Cared for his "Flock" for some amount of time.....used his powers too much...became crazy... saw the corruption in his city.... decided that humans couldn't be redeemed (like his old pastor days) and to kill them instead. Now he goes from city to city judging humanity on behalf of god and the arch angel that gave him his power. Thats why he didnt care about giving Regalia access to his powers...because it would only speed up the human cleansing. something David said made him snap and gain a greater understanding and regain a shred of sanity. When was it said he was a pastor? I remember Regalia was but there is little know of Obliteration's past I thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Mitosis came with some Epic files, which was how we knew Regalia's past and details before the book was released. I'm reasonably sure that's where we got the info from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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