OathGateHereICome Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) I've been chewing it over for a while and have been wondering about what you guys think. In a scenario where two evenly matched opponents are going up against each other, one with a shardblade and the other with a lightsaber; who would win? What if a shardbearer could theoretically lose their shardblade without having it go up in smoke to a jedi who in-turn, lost his lightsaber to said shardbearer, would the stakes change? For arguments sake, lets say that the shardbearer is a novice (with minimal combat training, unlike Kaladin) windrunner who's just spoken his third ideal and the jedi is an apprentice on the way to knighthood. Edited January 8, 2015 by OathGateHereICome 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestis the Spider Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) For arguments sake, lets say that the shardbearer is a novice windrunner who's just spoken his third ideal and the jedi is almost an apprentice. Well, at the beginning you said that you want them evenly matched, but I think that 'novice windrunner after 3rd ideal' and 'almost apprentice jedi' are not. Kaladin was really badass at the end of WoR and all that flying (falling) ability and other lashings do not make it any easier to defeat him. And what exactly can do a jedi, when he is not even an apprentice? And actually, as far as I recall, one did become an apprentice while still very young, so 'almost apprentice jedi' is still a small kid. Or maybe I remember something wrong. Edited January 8, 2015 by Pestis the Spider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hey! You HAVE to include the Energy Sword! This poll just isn't complete without it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellexe Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Legacy canon or New canon for Star Wars?-New canon is fairly close, I'd give an edge to the Shardbearer because of the range advantage and versatility. - Legacy canon is a stomp in favor of the Jedi. In the Legacy canon, anyone who has spent a couple years or more becoming attuned to the force becomes superhuman. More superhuman than holding stormlight, given the current feats from the two books. Hand eye coordination and reaction speed go through the roof. Precognition alone makes this match heavily in favor of the Jedi. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well, at the beginning you said that you want them evenly matched, but I think that 'novice windrunner after 3rd ideal' and 'almost apprentice jedi' are not. Kaladin was really badass at the end of WoR and all that flying (falling) ability and other lashings do not make it any easier to defeat him. And what exactly can do a jedi, when he is not even an apprentice? And actually, as far as I recall, one did become an apprentice while still very young, so 'almost apprentice jedi' is still a small kid. Or maybe I remember something wrong. I htink you have it about right. Kaladin in WoR is probably around the same level as a full Jadi Knight (Obi-Wan in episodes 2 and 3), but probably not at the level of a Jedi Master (Qui-gonn, or Obi-Wan from the original Trilogy) my question would basically come down to this: can a shardblade stop a lightsaber? I think that they maybe could but it is rather difficult to tell, since neither weapon really operates on normal physics... though Kaladellexe makes a good point, jedi precognition is a mighty thing. Brandon has basically said that a mistborn burning Atium is extremely hard to beat, and that is basically what jedi reflexes are...more or less, anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellexe Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (Slightly unrelated, but Mistborn are actually kinda OP when compared to other characters throughout the Cosmere. Seriously. They dodge/block coins on reaction without Atium. When you take into account how fast those coins could be flying (based on the average weight of a person, because Mistborn have to be able to Push with at least that much force to lift off the ground, the mass of the coin, and 1 meter of acceleration from a constant push, and you've got near bullet speeds) and how often Mistborn react to them (not aim-dodging or precognition, just flat *oh there's a coin headed my way* *Push/Dodge*) and you've got really superhuman reflexes and reaction speed. - Then you take into account THIS^, and compare it to how fast Steel Feruchemy can make you. Someone using Steel Feruchemy moves so fast not even a Mistborn can track their movements, and Mistborn are already bullet-timers.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well, I think it is mostly instinctive: see something coming at you via steel lines, and just push at it. no thinking about it or anything, just sense to reaction. I would generally cite the surgebinders as being more OP, since they automatically heal from any wounds while holding stormlight. Szeth is a walking murder factory and he isn't even as efficient at it as Kaladin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellexe Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well, I think it is mostly instinctive: see something coming at you via steel lines, and just push at it. no thinking about it or anything, just sense to reaction. I would generally cite the surgebinders as being more OP, since they automatically heal from any wounds while holding stormlight. Szeth is a walking murder factory and he isn't even as efficient at it as Kaladin. It's still reaction time. If it wasn't they wouldn't be able to do it. They may not be *thinking* about it a ton, but they still perceive the coin coming at them, process it in their brain, and then they react. They just happen to do it way faster than normal humans (insert theory about Investiture enhancing mental capabilities here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blad3mast3r Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 lightsabers are just heated gas right? given that shardblades can cut solid steel, i'd say the shard would go through the lightsaber. one's magic, the other is just a fancy laser. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 the other is just a fancy laser. You take that back, mister! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pifferdoo Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I'm saying lightsaber because of how much more nimble lightsaber duelists tend to be. Also, shardblades are ginormous and unwieldy when the opponent gets in close. This stacks the odds more towards the lightsaber wielder because a lightsaber is still quiet the deadly weapon at close range. Now, I'm not saying a shardblade isn't a deadly weapon at close range, but it's gonna be hard to maneuver. I'm of course assuming a Shardblade that is considered "dead", not alive like Syl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellexe Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I'm saying lightsaber because of how much more nimble lightsaber duelists tend to be. Also, shardblades are ginormous and unwieldy when the opponent gets in close. This stacks the odds more towards the lightsaber wielder because a lightsaber is still quiet the deadly weapon at close range. Now, I'm not saying a shardblade isn't a deadly weapon at close range, but it's gonna be hard to maneuver. I'm of course assuming a Shardblade that is considered "dead", not alive like Syl. Original post specifies that the Shardbearer is a Rank 3 Windrunner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Lightsaber is generally more useful at close range than a shardblade, true, but the shardblades tend to be exceedingly long (until the WoR cover, I imagined Szeth's to look something something like Sephiroth's Masamune) giving the wielder a lot more reach with their weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellexe Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Lightsaber is generally more useful at close range than a shardblade, true, but the shardblades tend to be exceedingly long (until the WoR cover, I imagined Szeth's to look something something like Sephiroth's Masamune) giving the wielder a lot more reach with their weapon. Szeth's Blade is pretty short compared to most Shardblades, yeah. - The Windrunner in this fight would definitely have a range advantage, so if he/she could keep the Jedi at bay then they'd have an advantage, but in close quarters the Jedi would have an advantage. Except this Windrunner can change the size of his Shardblade at will, from the size of a dagger to "about the volume of a human." So he/she can adapt to any situation, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Szeth's Blade is pretty short compared to most Shardblades, yeah. - The Windrunner in this fight would definitely have a range advantage, so if he/she could keep the Jedi at bay then they'd have an advantage, but in close quarters the Jedi would have an advantage. Except this Windrunner can change the size of his Shardblade at will, from the size of a dagger to "about the volume of a human." So he/she can adapt to any situation, really. Plus, in that case, if the shardblade is capable of blocking a lightsaber, then your windrunner could, at any point, have a shield to block with, that then reverts to a long blade or spear or whatever weapon is necessary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pifferdoo Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Original post specifies that the Shardbearer is a Rank 3 Windrunner. Guess I should read the origin post a bit more carefully then, huh. Well, at the beginning you said that you want them evenly matched, but I think that 'novice windrunner after 3rd ideal' and 'almost apprentice jedi' are not. Kaladin was really badass at the end of WoR and all that flying (falling) ability and other lashings do not make it any easier to defeat him. And what exactly can do a jedi, when he is not even an apprentice? And actually, as far as I recall, one did become an apprentice while still very young, so 'almost apprentice jedi' is still a small kid. Or maybe I remember something wrong. I agree with Pestis here that being a Windrunner of the third ideal doesn't make this that fair of a fight. It also misses the point of the poll. This is supposed to be about the relative power of both of the weapons, no? So really, we should assume that the shardbearer is a non-radiant shardbearer, with proper training and whatnot. The lightsaber wielder would have the same amount of training (proportional, of course) but no force capabilities. Or, at the very least, enough force to counteract any mystical effects the Shardblade gives to it's bearer. (you don't need the force to use a lightsaber, right? Just your average joe schmoe lightsaber?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Considering a lightsaber is plasma, it would probably just pass through it. lightsabers are just heated gas right? given that shardblades can cut solid steel, i'd say the shard would go through the lightsaber. one's magic, the other is just a fancy laser. Plasma, not a laser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellexe Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Considering a lightsaber is plasma, it would probably just pass through it. Plasma, not a laser. According to the Wookiepedia the field holding the blade in its form acts kinda like a super-magnet, increasing resistance exponentially to prevent solid matter from interrupting the blade's stability. It's possible this field could cause the Lightsaber to "clash" with a Shardblade, though it would be more like blades being bounced back by a cushion rather than hitting something solid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OathGateHereICome Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I'm saying lightsaber because of how much more nimble lightsaber duelists tend to be. Also, shardblades are ginormous and unwieldy when the opponent gets in close. This stacks the odds more towards the lightsaber wielder because a lightsaber is still quiet the deadly weapon at close range. Now, I'm not saying a shardblade isn't a deadly weapon at close range, but it's gonna be hard to maneuver. I'm of course assuming a Shardblade that is considered "dead", not alive like Syl. If the shardbearer was a KR then they would be able to adjust the size of the blade at will, possibly making it the size of a dagger or machete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (Slightly unrelated, but Mistborn are actually kinda OP when compared to other characters throughout the Cosmere. Seriously. They dodge/block coins on reaction without Atium. When you take into account how fast those coins could be flying (based on the average weight of a person, because Mistborn have to be able to Push with at least that much force to lift off the ground, the mass of the coin, and 1 meter of acceleration from a constant push, and you've got near bullet speeds) and how often Mistborn react to them (not aim-dodging or precognition, just flat *oh there's a coin headed my way* *Push/Dodge*) and you've got really superhuman reflexes and reaction speed. Not to derail this, but this probably isn't how Pushing works - just because Vin can lift her hundred pounds or whatever off the ground does not necessarily mean she can put one hundred pounds of force on a coin. If she could, she'd be basically accelerating it past the speed of sound and disintegrating it mid-air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dellexe Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Not to derail this, but this probably isn't how Pushing works - just because Vin can lift her hundred pounds or whatever off the ground does not necessarily mean she can put one hundred pounds of force on a coin. If she could, she'd be basically accelerating it past the speed of sound and disintegrating it mid-air. - Well, Sanderson has said in WoB* that he wanted Allomancy to make some sense within physics. It is most logical (to me, at least) to accept that Pushing/Pulling, pretty much the most recognizable part of Allomancy, follows this precedent, rather than assuming it is the exception to that rule. Unless Sanderson comes out with a statement refuting this, I have no reason to make assumptions that make Allomancy inconsistent. - I highly doubt that the coin would disintegrate in mid air. I mean, bullets don't. And bullets are propelled by a sudden and violent explosion, not a smooth, uniform Steelpush, sending them flying out at over twice the speed of sound, in some cases. What are bullets made of? Lead, or lead with copper sheathing. They handle these stresses just fine; they don't just disintegrate in mid air. V Making the assumption the lowest denomination coins commonly used by Mistborn are made of common metals like tin, copper or bronze, which makes sense, considering the plentiful supply of those metals in the books. This is further supported by the fact that the lower value coins in Medieval eras here on Earth were made of these types of metals. Plus it's said in the books that silver/gold coins exist in the Final Empire, if I recall correctly, but the small coins are used because of their lack of value, suggesting they are made of a more common metal. V Bronze, copper, and tin are fairly tough when compared to lead. Based on the Brinell scale, which measures the ease with which the metal can be punctured, lead scores 5 MPa. Of the metals probably used in Scadrian coins, tin is the lowest with 350 MPa. Copper is next with 874. I couldn't get a number for bronze, but it's apparently multiple times tougher than copper, so you get the idea. According to the Mohs scale of hardness, which measures how difficult it is for a material to be scratched by another material, lead is again the lowest, though admittedly tied with tin. V So bullets are made of a softer metal, suffer more violent acceleration methods, and are accelerated to a higher speed than the coins. Bullets don't disintegrate, so I doubt the coins would either. - Sorry for the long post, and I apologize if I sound offensive in this, or like I'm belittling your opinions. I just wished to explain fully why I believe this theory of the mechanics of Allomancy and why I don't think your rebuttal will change my opinions. * http://theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kw=allomancy+physics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Well, Sanderson has said in WoB* that he wanted Allomancy to make some sense within physics. It is most logical (to me, at least) to accept that Pushing/Pulling, pretty much the most recognizable part of Allomancy, follows this precedent, rather than assuming it is the exception to that rule. Unless Sanderson comes out with a statement refuting this, I have no reason to make assumptions that make Allomancy inconsistent. As this is going to derail the thread, I've made a post here to respond more fully. As to being offensive, you didn't come across that way at all. I don't get insulted by being refuted. If I'm wrong, I want to know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestis the Spider Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 (edited) If the shardbearer was a KR then they would be able to adjust the size of the blade at will, possibly making it the size of a dagger or machete Or the size of the lightsaber, so no one has any size-advantage. So really, we should assume that the shardbearer is a non-radiant shardbearer, with proper training and whatnot. I think that we shouldn't assume that. After all KR shardblade is a living spren, while 'common' shardblade is a dead spren. These are two completely different things, I think. And the autor seem to mean KR sword. Edited January 8, 2015 by Pestis the Spider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 Doesn't really matter if you get them when they're are sleeping. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHOUTAGOD Posted January 8, 2015 Report Share Posted January 8, 2015 I have to give this one to the (drum roll)....... JEDI!!!! Reasons The Jedi can not run out of the Force The Windrunner can run out of stormlight. Jedi are usually trained VERY early in life in their force abilities, and lightsaber combat. Windrunners can get their abilities very late in life, so not as practiced. A Jedi can SENSE an enemy ( its almost impossible to sneak up or hide from a Jedi unless you to have Force abilities too ). Windrunners have enhanced senses, but nothing extrasensory. I rest my case your Honor!! P.S. Some Force users are so powerful they can make suns explode. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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