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Firefight Spoilers discussion

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I just don't think they would go through the whole refusal process just to have David get an Epic power anyway.

 

If David was going to secretly get a power, I feel like Brandon wouldn't have made such an epic moment out of his refusal. David would have been like "oh no i'm an epic, going to drown myself!" then not seen any evidence of powers and thought "oh, it musn't have worked" or something.

 

and there is still the problem of Prof gifting him. It makes no sense for an Epic who has overcome there fear to be able to be gifted to, there just isn't any connection.

Edited by Blackhoof
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I just don't think they would go through the whole refusal process just to have David get an Epic power anyway.

 

If David was going to secretly get a power, I feel like Brandon wouldn't have made such an epic moment out of his refusal. David would have been like "oh no i'm an epic, going to drown myself!" then not seen any evidence of powers and thought "oh, it musn't have worked" or something.

 

I suppose you and I had two very different feelings towards this scene. I was really let down at how it all played out. I saw that it was coming, so when it did I was very excited to see how David would deal with it. Instead of being forced to grow as a character by dealing with becoming that which he hates, though, David literally just says "No thanks" and it's over. My thoughts upon getting passed that half a page was "LAME!" It was such a let down.

 

 

and there is still the problem of Prof gifting him. It makes no sense for an Epic who has overcome there fear to be able to be gifted to, there just isn't any connection.

 

I don't see this solution as being a problem. The only reason it is a problem is because we've been told that Epics cannot be gifted powers. The thing is, there had never been Epics who overcame their fears before (and those that had likely had no reason to be gifted powers). So we actually have zero data points as to whether or not a good Epic can be gifted. There is no evidence for or against. Well, I think there is evidence for it, but it's rather slim evidence. Consider this:

 

When David refuses and apparently recieves no powers, Regalia is shocked. Downright flabbergasted. But how does Calamity react? I don't have my book on me currently, but if I recall correctly it doesn't react. At all, down to the point of not answering Regalia when she asks why David didn't get powers. To me, that is suspect. If everyone it's tried giving powers to before has manifested powers, David is clearly odd or different. Yet Calamity shows no signs that this turn of events bothers it. This tells me that David does have powers. In addition, it is evident that the healing powers were gifted to him, becuase they run out like gifted powers normally do. So there are two possibilities: 1) Epics who have overcame their fears can be gifted powers; 2) An individual that has overcame their fears prior to becoming an Epic has a lag time prior to manifesting powers. Given the simplicity of #1 versus #2, I think #1 is the correct answer to this puzzle.

 

As I said, it's not very strong evidence. But we know an Epic that has overcome their fear is no longer affected by the corrupting power. So something about them has clearly changed. Not being capable of being gifted powers could also change.

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When David refuses and apparently recieves no powers, Regalia is shocked. Downright flabbergasted. But how does Calamity react? I don't have my book on me currently, but if I recall correctly it doesn't react. At all, down to the point of not answering Regalia when she asks why David didn't get powers. To me, that is suspect. If everyone it's tried giving powers to before has manifested powers, David is clearly odd or different. Yet Calamity shows no signs that this turn of events bothers it.

Given how closely Calamity seems to have worked together with Regalia, I read him refusing to answer as him not wanting to acknowledge that he failed or at least has no clue what's going on either. Kind of like a child hiding in its room. Otherwise he could just have told her that it did work and have her stopp bothering him.

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Given how closely Calamity seems to have worked together with Regalia, I read him refusing to answer as him not wanting to acknowledge that he failed or at least has no clue what's going on either. Kind of like a child hiding in its room. Otherwise he could just have told her that it did work and have her stopp bothering him.

 

I understood their relationship to be one of superiority, with Calamity being "above" Regalia. As such, his silence could easily just be annoyance.

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Well if people are right about Conflux having overcome his weakness I think at some point Prof would have tried gifting to him just to make absolutely sure that he couldn't gift to Epics. Plus I don't know that we can jump to be there being no evidence for redeemed Epics being able to be gifted to, as far as we know all Epics can't be gifted to, it seems to be a pretty general rule and has even been hinted to apply with technology based on Epics. We could say that the books don't outright say that teleporting Epics can't be gifted to but it's generally assumed that they fall under the subset of 'all' Epics until proven otherwise.

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I suppose you and I had two very different feelings towards this scene. I was really let down at how it all played out. I saw that it was coming, so when it did I was very excited to see how David would deal with it. Instead of being forced to grow as a character by dealing with becoming that which he hates, though, David literally just says "No thanks" and it's over. My thoughts upon getting passed that half a page was "LAME!" It was such a let down.

 

I didn't see it as a letdown at all, and for one simple reason: Refusing Calamity isn't easy in the Reckonersverse. 

 

Earlier in Firefight, Megan says that she was made an Epic involuntarily. The way she puts it—"This was done to me against my will"—makes it sound like she refused. Multiple times. And it happened anyway. 

 

Regalia doesn't mention consent when she talks about creating Waterlog (and possibly Knoxx, though there's no concrete evidence he was one of the Epics she made). However, she doesn't seem like the type to bother with consent, and that she doesn't mention it implies that it isn't crucial to becoming an Epic. On a less drastic note, gifters can gift their powers without needing to obtain consent; we see Prof do this in Firefight, and it's never said whether or not the Diggers had to give Digzone express permission before taking the powers that drove them insane, but given Steelheart's infrastructure, I think it's safe to say that not all of the Diggers wanted to take Epic powers. It's probably also safe to assume that some of them attempted to refuse once they realized the power was driving them insane, but Digzone continued gifting anyway. 

 

With that in mind, the scene takes on a whole new meaning. David isn't just saying "No thanks" to free superpowers. He's doing something that has never been done before. "You don't get a choice," Regalia tells him, but it's too late: He's made one anyway. Calamity's offer is independent of consent, but David refuses it nonetheless. 

 

In that scene, David didn't just refuse powers so he could continue being good ol' David. He changed the game entirely. 

Edited by TwiLyghtSansSparkles
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I didn't see it as a letdown at all, and for one simple reason: Refusing Calamity isn't easy in the Reckonersverse. 

 

Earlier in Firefight, Megan says that she was made an Epic involuntarily. The way she puts it—"This was done to me against my will"—makes it sound like she refused. Multiple times. And it happened anyway. 

 

Regalia doesn't mention consent when she talks about creating Waterlog (and possibly Knoxx, though there's no concrete evidence he was one of the Epics she made). However, she doesn't seem like the type to bother with consent, and that she doesn't mention it implies that it isn't crucial to becoming an Epic. On a less drastic note, gifters can gift their powers without needing to obtain consent; we see Prof do this in Firefight, and it's never said whether or not the Diggers had to give Digzone express permission before taking the powers that drove them insane, but given Steelheart's infrastructure, I think it's safe to say that not all of the Diggers wanted to take Epic powers. It's probably also safe to assume that some of them attempted to refuse once they realized the power was driving them insane, but Digzone continued gifting anyway. 

 

With that in mind, the scene takes on a whole new meaning. David isn't just saying "No thanks" to free superpowers. He's doing something that has never been done before. "You don't get a choice," Regalia tells him, but it's too late: He's made one anyway. Calamity's offer is independent of consent, but David refuses it nonetheless. 

 

In that scene, David didn't just refuse powers so he could continue being good ol' David. He changed the game entirely. 

 

I am not disagreeing with you, and I didn't mean to imply I thought the implications of the scene were lame. I just felt that such a monumental occurence would be more...eventful? Like it would take more than a paragraph? David didn't struggle. Having proven his fears had no power over him, it was legitimately just a matter of saying no. Meanwhile, Megan, as you point out, was likely kicking and screaming her refusal, fighting the Rending with all her sanity, but to no avail. Megan likely fought for a short period of time that felt like an eternity to her, struggling against the impending evil that was crawling, uninvited, its way into her mind. David just said "no." His struggle to overcome Calamity's influence was simply lackluster, and didn't show the fact that he "changed the game entirely," as you put it.

 

Way of Kings, Warbreaker, and Rithmatist spoilers follow:

Meanwhile, in WoK, Kaladin's game changing occurence at the end of the novel involves him fighting hundreds, if not thousands, of Parshendi as he tries frantically to rescue Adolin and Dalinar before they are killed. Or in Warbreaker, when Vasher decides to change the game by drawing Nightblood, he fights his way into the God King's palace against all odds to rescue Vivenna. Or, also in Warbreaker, when the game changes by Lightsong healing Susebron's tongue, and Susebron uses his vast wealth of Breath to stop the rebels from overtaking the palace.

 

Or let's look at the Rithmatist, Sanderson's other YA/teen work. The game changing event here was actually one for the bad guys, with the existence of the Forgotten. Leaders of the Chalklings, the Forgotten at the end of the novel provides the reader a showcase of their powers in an amazing climactic battle that left one feeling dread for the future of this world. If one was this hard to defeat, what would this mean when the Forgotten come together to fight humanity?

 

All four of those events were game changers that resulted in eventful happenings that showed the extreme implications of said changing of the game. Meanwhile David just said "no."

 

And I know, David did struggle to overcome his fear of the ocean. Only he didn't struggle very hard. I was actually a bit surprised that was the fear he had to overcome. He hadn't even known about that fear until he got to Babilar. Plus, he'd already somewhat overcome it with the spyril. That's a whole different dicussion though.

 

I do want to say that I don't think Regalia herself gave powers. Considering she had to ask Calamity to make David one, I think her boasts about making people Epics, or increasing their power levels, boil down to her requesting Calamity's help. Otherwise why not give David the powers she wanted him to have, rather than imploring Calamity to give them to him?

 

All in all I understand what your saying, I felt let down though. Maybe that's just me :)

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I am not disagreeing with you, and I didn't mean to imply I thought the implications of the scene were lame. I just felt that such a monumental occurence would be more...eventful? Like it would take more than a paragraph? David didn't struggle. Having proven his fears had no power over him, it was legitimately just a matter of saying no. Meanwhile, Megan, as you point out, was likely kicking and screaming her refusal, fighting the Rending with all her sanity, but to no avail. Megan likely fought for a short period of time that felt like an eternity to her, struggling against the impending evil that was crawling, uninvited, its way into her mind. David just said "no." His struggle to overcome Calamity's influence was simply lackluster, and didn't show the fact that he "changed the game entirely," as you put it.

 

Way of Kings, Warbreaker, and Rithmatist spoilers follow:

Meanwhile, in WoK, Kaladin's game changing occurence at the end of the novel involves him fighting hundreds, if not thousands, of Parshendi as he tries frantically to rescue Adolin and Dalinar before they are killed. Or in Warbreaker, when Vasher decides to change the game by drawing Nightblood, he fights his way into the God King's palace against all odds to rescue Vivenna. Or, also in Warbreaker, when the game changes by Lightsong healing Susebron's tongue, and Susebron uses his vast wealth of Breath to stop the rebels from overtaking the palace.

 

Or let's look at the Rithmatist, Sanderson's other YA/teen work. The game changing event here was actually one for the bad guys, with the existence of the Forgotten. Leaders of the Chalklings, the Forgotten at the end of the novel provides the reader a showcase of their powers in an amazing climactic battle that left one feeling dread for the future of this world. If one was this hard to defeat, what would this mean when the Forgotten come together to fight humanity?

 

All four of those events were game changers that resulted in eventful happenings that showed the extreme implications of said changing of the game. Meanwhile David just said "no."

 

And I know, David did struggle to overcome his fear of the ocean. Only he didn't struggle very hard. I was actually a bit surprised that was the fear he had to overcome. He hadn't even known about that fear until he got to Babilar. Plus, he'd already somewhat overcome it with the spyril. That's a whole different dicussion though.

 

I do want to say that I don't think Regalia herself gave powers. Considering she had to ask Calamity to make David one, I think her boasts about making people Epics, or increasing their power levels, boil down to her requesting Calamity's help. Otherwise why not give David the powers she wanted him to have, rather than imploring Calamity to give them to him?

 

All in all I understand what your saying, I felt let down though. Maybe that's just me :)

 

And I see where you're coming from, but I don't think that the length of David's struggle makes it any less momentous. Prof fought that corruption for at least ten years. Megan probably fought it from the moment she got powers to the moment she escaped the corruption. And it was a losing battle for both of them, because Calamity rigged it in his favor. The entire deal is rigged—you're not supposed to be able to refuse, and you're not supposed to be able to resist the corruption. 

 

Megan and Prof had already fought the long battle, proving that it was a struggle. For David to simply say "No" and have it be over makes the scene even more momentous, in my opinion. By winning a rigged game, and winning it quickly, David upset the balance more than he would have if he had taken the powers and fought them, kicking and screaming. 

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