Was Ruin responsible for the mist killings?

[Teegs]

**Forgive misspellings, I listen to audiobooks so I don't know how to spell many of the names correctly.

So I'm on my second time through WoA and I just got to the part where Vin and Elend are approaching the Well of Ascension. Anyway, during their escapade the Mist Spirit visits Sazed and directs him to Kredic Shaw to presumably stop Vin from giving up the power. Anyhow, during Sazed's trip, the mist killings start to happen in Luthadel, and Sazed encounters a Ska man who died from it. The Mist Spirit appears in front of Sazed and Sazed asks "Did you do this?" The Mist Spirit replies by shaking its head.

Now here's my theory. We know from HoA that the people who got sick from the mists became mistings, and the people who got REALLY sick became atium mistings. What if the people who died would have been mistborn? But because of intervention from Ruin, they died. Where possibly Ruin initially had tried to kill all the people who got sick, but only had enough power to kill the possible mistborn. If I were in Ruin's place I'd definitely want to kill the mistborn, and atium mistings first as they tipped the scales in Preservation's favor more during the final battle.

Thoughts?

[king of nowhere]

I think we have quite confirmed that the mists made people sick to snap them, and some of them died because of the sickness. Just like the nobles beating their children. it's nothing to do with ruin, I think. In the army less people than expected died, even if the same amount got sick, because they were healty men and so more likely to survive the sickness. the alternate idea would be that there were less mistborn among them, which make no sense.

[Teegs]

The sickness snapping people doesn't contradict what I said. I've actually always been under the impression that that is what the mist sickness was for. However, the sickness actually killing the people, I suspect has to do with Ruin interfering. I know it's a thin fine line to walk, snapping, and dying. And I realize elderly or weak people have a greater likelihood of dying, but I haven't listened to HoA again yet (starting that today!!) so I cannot confirm that only eldery or weak people were actually killed from the sickness. If it was not limited to weak and elderly then why would healthy people die from the sickness?

Anyone remember the numbers? Out of the population that got sick, how many got REALLY sick, and how many died?

Why would atium mistings get MORE sick? Is it because it takes more to snap an atium misting? Or is it because atium is more powerful and Ruin sought to eliminate them, but couldn't because he devoted more of his power to eliminating the Mistborn?

And why would the Mist Spirit deny killing those people to Sazed? He may have wanted to avoid the "argument" but I have an itch that there's more to that encounter. Why have that scene at all?

[Vortaan]

The sickness snapping people doesn't contradict what I said. I've actually always been under the impression that that is what the mist sickness was for. However, the sickness actually killing the people, I suspect has to do with Ruin interfering. I know it's a thin fine line to walk, snapping, and dying. And I realize elderly or weak people have a greater likelihood of dying, but I haven't listened to HoA again yet (starting that today!!) so I cannot confirm that only eldery or weak people were actually killed from the sickness. If it was not limited to weak and elderly then why would healthy people die from the sickness?

Anyone remember the numbers? Out of the population that got sick, how many got REALLY sick, and how many died?

Why would atium mistings get MORE sick? Is it because it takes more to snap an atium misting? Or is it because atium is more powerful and Ruin sought to eliminate them, but couldn't because he devoted more of his power to eliminating the Mistborn?

And why would the Mist Spirit deny killing those people to Sazed? He may have wanted to avoid the "argument" but I have an itch that there's more to that encounter. Why have that scene at all?

Atium mistings likely take more to snap because of the nature of their power. They are mistings that ONLY burn Ruin's essence. You likely need quite a dose of pain to make their inner Preservation reach to Ruin's power. As for Mistborn being able to be Snapped through the mists, I find it really really unlikely. Mistborn are by their nature closer to Preservation than other Allomancers, evidenced by the fact that before the Lord Ruler there were no Mistborn at all. You would think it would actually take less to snap the average Mistborn. Why Kelsier didn't snap until he was in the Pits is actually one of the bigger mysteries of the series to me.

[Teegs]

Atium mistings likely take more to snap because of the nature of their power. They are mistings that ONLY burn Ruin's essence. You likely need quite a dose of pain to make their inner Preservation reach to Ruin's power. As for Mistborn being able to be Snapped through the mists, I find it really really unlikely. Mistborn are by their nature closer to Preservation than other Allomancers, evidenced by the fact that before the Lord Ruler there were no Mistborn at all. You would think it would actually take less to snap the average Mistborn. Why Kelsier didn't snap until he was in the Pits is actually one of the bigger mysteries of the series to me.

I see the logic begind atium mistings only burning Ruins metal, but is there any evidence to support that? I just started HoA today, so I'm WAY before any of that stuff starts getting explained. Also, while they may burn Ruins metal, but they're still using Preservations magic system.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the comment about there being no mistborn prior to TLR. If I remember correctly, there were no mistings either, and mistings only came about through diffusion of bloodlines. As far as I know, Feruchemy was the only magic system in place before TLR.

I still don't subscribe to there being different levels of "snappage" for people based on what metal they're going to snap into. Snapping I suspect is an individual thing perhaps, but for it being easier for mistborn, and harder for atium mistings seems like a stretch to me. I don't remember any statements that pertain to that. But again, I'm still pretty early in HoA, so if someone has recently read it, or remembers a quote, please correct me.

Sort of off topic, I also couldn't believe that it took that long for Kel to snap. He'd HAD to have seen/gone through some pretty bad stuff during his day... Maybe we underestimate what it takes to snap a person.

[dj26792]

For a person to snap they have to see death and choose to preserve themselves. I dont have the quote but Brandon has said that almost word for word, so I dont think the sickness needed any help killing people any one not determined enough to preserve themselves would die. Also in the epigraphs it says that there were mistings before TLR and that the original HOA (forgot his name) was a seeker the mist was killing people then too in order to snap them but they were just starting to exist so no one knew what was going on or had any metals to burn other than trace amounts subconsciously like Vin at the start of MB

[Vortaan]

I see the logic begind atium mistings only burning Ruins metal, but is there any evidence to support that? I just started HoA today, so I'm WAY before any of that stuff starts getting explained. Also, while they may burn Ruins metal, but they're still using Preservations magic system.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the comment about there being no mistborn prior to TLR. If I remember correctly, there were no mistings either, and mistings only came about through diffusion of bloodlines. As far as I know, Feruchemy was the only magic system in place before TLR.

I still don't subscribe to there being different levels of "snappage" for people based on what metal they're going to snap into. Snapping I suspect is an individual thing perhaps, but for it being easier for mistborn, and harder for atium mistings seems like a stretch to me. I don't remember any statements that pertain to that. But again, I'm still pretty early in HoA, so if someone has recently read it, or remembers a quote, please correct me.

Sort of off topic, I also couldn't believe that it took that long for Kel to snap. He'd HAD to have seen/gone through some pretty bad stuff during his day... Maybe we underestimate what it takes to snap a person.

If you haven't finished HoA, there are major spoilers ahead. So I won't comment more. But yes, there is evidence that atium mistings burn Ruin's metal.

[Eric]

I'm pretty sure we have confirmation somewhere that Ruin altered the Mists to kill and cover the land in order to turn them into the Deepness and make Alendi (and later Vin) desperate to fulfill the prophecy. Can't find it offhand, though.

[king of nowhere]

I'm pretty sure we have confirmation somewhere that Ruin altered the Mists to kill and cover the land in order to turn them into the Deepness and make Alendi (and later Vin) desperate to fulfill the prophecy. Can't find it offhand, though.

I don't have the book at hand, but I remember that quote. it said ruin caused the mist to be more widespread and to linger more during daytime, killing crops. I don't think it said anything about ruin making the mist killing people too.

Also, alendi said that the mist "had aused the death of thousands", because of the famine consequential to the crop failure.

[Eric]

I thought it was in an interview, but can't find it. Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong on the internet.

[Zas678]

Annotations. If there's a mistborn fact that isn't in the books or the interviews, it's in the annotations. I've got the first book's annotations in the Database, but I don't know if I'll have time to put the second and third ones in there.

[Windrunner]

I don't think Ruin was involved at all with the Mist killings.

What is going on here is that the mists are awakening the Allomantic potential inside of people. It's very rough on a person for that to come out, and can cause death. Preservation set this all up before he gave his consciousness to imprison Ruin, so it's not a perfect system. It's like a machine left behind by its creator. The catalyst is the return of the power to the Well of Ascension. As soon as that power becomes full, it sets the mists to begin Snapping those who have the potential for Allomancy buried within them.

No mention of Ruin involved at all. Also, I'm fairly certain the mists would snap any Mistborn who hadn't snapped already. If anyone has any untapped Allomantic potential, the mists will snap them. As for those who wonder why Kelsier didn't snap until the Pits, this is the only answer I think we're going to get.

Kelsier's Snapping

Why didn't Kelsier Snap before he went to the Pits? I don't have an answer for you, not even in spoilers. He did live a hard life and it is odd that he wouldn't have Snapped until that moment when he saw his wife beaten to death.

They say that the more powerful a person is, the more trauma it takes to get them to Snap and the more dangerous that Snapping is.

[Lady_Yasha]

I always thought the mists were Preservation's body and the mist killings a direct result of Preservation's conscience trying to produce more Mistings to combat the forces of Ruin. The killings only happened by pure misfortune, while some were Snapped as Preservation had intended.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Lyrebon

[Observer]

I'm not sure of the relevance of the comment about there being no mistborn prior to TLR. If I remember correctly, there were no mistings either

Untrue. Alendi was a Seeker. Mistings were far rarerer back then (Alendi may have not even known he was burning Bronze), probably something to do with how powerful allomancy was back in the day.

[Teegs]

Just finished HoA and there's a direct quote in one of the last chapters (I'm doing the audiobook thing so its difficult to jump to it for reference.) that states that the mist sickness was to snap people, and Preservation had not intended it to kill people. However, elderly and sickly typically were the ones that died from it if deaths were to occur. In the same passage it said that Ruin was the one who made the mists thicker and linger longer in order to create the deepness.

So from that we can pretty much say Ruin was NOT involved in the mist killings. At least before TLR's ascension for sure. But probably not ever.

[Lady_Yasha]

Just finished HoA and there's a direct quote in one of the last chapters (I'm doing the audiobook thing so its difficult to jump to it for reference.) that states that the mist sickness was to snap people, and Preservation had not intended it to kill people. However, elderly and sickly typically were the ones that died from it if deaths were to occur. In the same passage it said that Ruin was the one who made the mists thicker and linger longer in order to create the deepness.

So from that we can pretty much say Ruin was NOT involved in the mist killings. At least before TLR's ascension for sure. But probably not ever.

I think it would have to do with Preservation's state at the time too. I believe Kelsier held the Shard before Vin and it was his will to snap people in order to fight Ruin. I have a feeling that since Kelsier is new to the Shard business he didn't know how to control the mists to snap individual people and had to include the sick and elderly aswel.

[Observer]

So from that we can pretty much say Ruin was NOT involved in the mist killings. At least before TLR's ascension for sure. But probably not ever.

Somewhere in the epigraphs I'm pretty sure Sazed explicitly mentions that Ruin knew he couldn't stop Preservation from snapping people, so he simply helped along, thickening to mists to block sunlight and pushing the mistsickness to the point of killing, creating the problem known as the Deepness. One moment, let me see if I don't have the epigraphs up on one of my seven million tabs...

Found it! (Bold mine)

When Preservation set up the mists, he was afraid of Ruin escaping his prison. In those early days, before the Ascension, the mists began to Snap people as they did during our time—but this action of the mists was one of the only ways to awaken Allomancy in a person, for the genetic attributes were buried too deeply to be brought out by a simple beating. The mists of that day created Mistings only, of course—there were no Mistborn until the Lord Ruler made use of the nuggets.

The people misinterpreted the mists' intent, as the process of Snapping Allomancers caused some—particularly the young and the old—to die. This hadn't been Preservation's desire, but he'd given up most of his consciousness to form Ruin's prison, and the mists had to be left to work as best they could without specific direction.

Ruin, subtle as ever, knew that he couldn't stop the mists from doing their work. However, he could do the unexpected and encourage them. And so, he helped make them stronger. That brought death to the plants of the world, and created the threat that became known as the Deepness.

So yes, I'd say that Ruin played a large part in the mist killings, though some of them were just from lack of a large cognitive factor in the mists.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Observer

[Eric]

That doesn't say he made them better at inflicting trauma (though it could easily be read to imply it), just that he made them cover the land better. Still iffy.

[dj26792]

That quote says death to the plants, by thickening the mists and making them linger nothing about the people who died I still say the people who died were the people who chose not to preserve their life, they were killed because they didnt snap.

[Eric]

I think they did snap. They just died, too. Not strong enough to survive the trauma required to snap them. I think Brandon mentioned a rumor in one of his side-lines in the MAG about needing greater trauma the stronger you are as an Allomancer. So there would be a few that would have been too strong Allomantically to survive the trauma necessary to snap them.

[Observer]

It just makes sense to me that Ruin would be able to push the mists harder, even if it was only by a tiny bit, in order to hopefully kill the one beings snapped. Seems a lot like him to get the mists to kill a larger group of people.

The above applies even more after Ruin got released. It would be completely within his power to make the mists hit harder, and it would make them seem even more evil in the eyes of the people.

[dj26792]

No I dont think he couldnt push the mists further they were literally preservation, he could drag them out and make them hang around so that the plants died form a lack of sunlight, that would actually kill far more than just pushing harder at those with allomantic potential, but I dont see how he could make them push harder without completely taking over preservation

[Eric]

Do you see how he could team up with Preservation to create sentient life, or use his power to fuel Allomancy or Feruchemy? It's pretty similar.

[Voidus]

I always just figured that he used his own mists to push people over the edge once they'd already been weakened by mistsickness.

[Kiwi]

No I dont think he couldnt push the mists further they were literally preservation, he could drag them out and make them hang around so that the plants died form a lack of sunlight, that would actually kill far more than just pushing harder at those with allomantic potential, but I dont see how he could make them push harder without completely taking over preservation

I agree. While Ruin made the mists thicker and linger during the day, all that really did was kill off plants and expose more people to the mists (Which incidentally made it seem like the mists were attacking people, when in fact that's kinda what the mists were there for anyways. To Snap people).

The ones who died from being Snapped were those who couldn't handle it (Very young or very old). I don't remember where I saw it, but the mists Snapping people was much more violent than Snapping people through beatings, so it would make since that people could die from it. The body can only take so much at certain points in one's life.

And further more, the percentage of people who were Snapped (including those who died) was still 16% or whatever, which tells me the mists were still of Preservation, and not tainted by Ruin.

Do you see how he could team up with Preservation to create sentient life, or use his power to fuel Allomancy or Feruchemy? It's pretty similar.

Yes, but using your own quote against you they "teamed up". There was consent from Preservation to create sentient life. Even though Preservation at this point wasn't much more than a vegetable, wasn't Kelsier holding it temporarily or something?

Anywho, my point being I don't think Ruin could forcibly take Preservation's power and strengthen or weaken it's power to Snap people. He could just add his mist to it, or at the very least do something to make the mist thicker and stay during the day.