54 posts in this topic

Okay well... your post is harmless mostly, up to "unnecessary lesbian relationship agenda" could you please explain what you mean by this?

For the most part there relationship is cool... not handled the best though... like the only time they properly kiss is when their lives are at stake.. which is awkward but yeah... I believe in the relationship at least. Servant Master dynamic evolved into a more equal partnership. Emphasis on more equal not quite but yeah. 

And Dr Who needs a lot more (better) queer rep in my opinion. Actually most shows do really.

Edited by Iredomi
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And Dr Who needs a lot more (better) queer rep in my opinion. Actually most shows do really.

 

That is something I don't get.

I am not against gays and lesbians, I have quite a few friends who are, several transgenders as well..

 

But they are not that large a percentage of society to say that they need to be in most shows and/or repesented in the main cast cast of most shows.

 

I would have to disagree there.

 

Best representation done for it and in best taste I have seen so far was Captain Jack Harkness.

 

My wife, duaghter and I got our Pictures with John Barrowman at the last Salt lake Comic Con too. love that guy.

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Hmm I don't understand the percentage of population argument especially when I firmly believe those stats are meaningless in a heteronormative society.

any way positive queer representation helps increase positive perception of queer people. and that is so freaking important.

captain jack is undoubtedly awesome though.

oh and I'm not really asking for every show to have it but I don't think it really hurts.

Edited by Iredomi
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I'm for gay rights, but I really hate when people are defined my their right to be gay. When they are people who are gay as opposed to gay people, like Captain Jack, it's fine. In the case of the damnation alien and her stupid maid, those two are defined by their relationship. That's just never healthy. Also, it's stupid. Captain Jack? Awesome. Lizard and human? Dumb.

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oh I see what you mean yeah I don't know if I agree when it comes to these specific characters but if that is how you see it then your annoyance makes sense. yeah so it's like instead of kaladin being a person who just happens to have depression it would be like if that is all that defined him you would have issue with his character too? isthat kind of a workable comparison just woke up so my brain is a bit fuzzy haha.

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Angels Take Manhattan is actually one of my favorite episodes of Doctor Who. Which was weird to realize since I didn't remember it fondly before I rewatched Matt Smith's run a few months ago. 

 

I love the sense of place that New York established... that most episodes don't have the budget for. I love that it was one of the only episodes where we got River and the Doctor on the same "page" of their relationship and that they got to play with that a little bit. I love that the fact that there were actual stakes for the main characters. It even makes internal sense, which was surprising to realize. 

 

I think what really changed my perspective on it was viewing it as an episode about the Doctor recognizing (fairly early on) that these are a different set of stakes (that only he and not Amy and Rory fully comprehended) and that he really is going to lose Amy and Rory. The episode is about watching him deal with that. He's the emotional through line of the episode.

 

Viewed as a farewell to Amy and Rory as characters, it's super unsatisfying. Part of that is because, up until the end of the episode, neither Amy or Rory really have reason to see these events as different than stuff like Big Bang or The Girl Who Waited (even though the viewer does). The other part is because it's obvious that Moffat was bored of writing these characters by this point and he'd never made it a goal to make the companions be fully realized characters with stakes like RTD did and like Moffat did with Clara in Season 8. So, contemporarily, heralded as Amy and Rory's exit from the show, it was a bit of a let down.

 

Watched with more attention to the Doctor (who Moffat is far more interested in turning into a compelling character, even if he's never quite been able to hit the mix between character and "smartest man in the room" he hit in Sherlock) it's way better because we rarely get to see that character struggle with stakes we believe he passionately cares about and because he rarely has to grapple with his own helplessness. 

 

The whole episode is actually a reversal of the Doctor Who formula. Instead of the Doctor's intelligence/perspective making him the only person able to solve a seemingly hopeless situation, these traits cripple him because he's the only one who can perceive how hopeless the situation is. The day gets saved because of human obtuseness (for about 3 minutes). 

 

Statue of Liberty Angel makes no sense though. Like, there's no way it could ever move. At least one person is always looking at it. Cool imagery, though. Thankfully, it was never played for more. 

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oh I see what you mean yeah I don't know if I agree when it comes to these specific characters but if that is how you see it then your annoyance makes sense. yeah so it's like instead of kaladin being a person who just happens to have depression it would be like if that is all that defined him you would have issue with his character too? isthat kind of a workable comparison just woke up so my brain is a bit fuzzy haha.

Yes, that's almost perfect. It's like someone who is in a wheelchair but does amazing things despite their handicap instead of dwelling on it. I know that comparison makes it seem like I view being gay as a handicap. Yep.

Anyhow, you got it.

I really like all of the other companions. Jackie is so freaking funny! I wish Amy and Rory had ended better, but I liked who the Doctor was around them. My favourite is Clara because she is the prettiest. I know it's shallow. I don't care.

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I really wish that they had gone away after their respective first episodes. Unfortunately, they are still around despite their ridiculous scripts and even worse acting. Add in the unnecessary lesbian relationship agenda and you've got the whole terrible shebang. I don't know if you can tell, but I'm really sick of them.

I don't even care if I get super down voted for this. It really felt good to finally say it all to someone.

 

I'm for gay rights, but I really hate when people are defined my their right to be gay. When they are people who are gay as opposed to gay people, like Captain Jack, it's fine. In the case of the damnation alien and her stupid maid, those two are defined by their relationship. That's just never healthy. Also, it's stupid. Captain Jack? Awesome. Lizard and human? Dumb.

 

Yes, that's almost perfect. It's like someone who is in a wheelchair but does amazing things despite their handicap instead of dwelling on it. I know that comparison makes it seem like I view being gay as a handicap. Yep.

Anyhow, you got it.

I really like all of the other companions. Jackie is so freaking funny! I wish Amy and Rory had ended better, but I liked who the Doctor was around them. My favourite is Clara because she is the prettiest. I know it's shallow. I don't care.

 

I have to disagree with you on this.

 

Are Jenny and Vastra fully fleshed out characters? Of course not. Neither is Strax. Are they defined by their sexuality? Sure, just as much as they are by being interspecies or monogamous or from the 19th century or detectives. 

 

But that's because they occupy the "for children" side of the show. They are supposed to be bright, funny, interesting characters primarily for the schoolchildren audience that Doctor Who has. All those dumb gadgets they used in Deep Breath? That was because school children sent in pictures of interesting devices that Jenny, Vastra, and Strax might use and they used the best ones.

 

Doctor Who is always doing this kind of thing because it's a family program, especially under Moffat. Usually this is achieved in other media by having everything be accessible for both children and adults, but Doctor Who doesn't play by those rules. DW mashes up adult or scary elements with childish ones. Sort of like how season 8 went from Daleks to Robin Hood to Horror to Abortion to School Children Learning About Why Trees are Good to Mortality. Hey, it works better than the season 4 finale. 

 

That's why it's cool that they're gay. It's definitely an agenda. It's pretty subversive.  They're not just gay. They're gay characters expressly for children. 

 

Captain Jack is a way more fleshed out character... because he had his own TV show which was written for adults and was full of adult content (consciously excluding children). Going solely by his DW appearances, I don't know if he's much deeper. 

 

But anyways, Jenny and Strax aren't really for me, but from a representational standpoint these are super valuable characters. The whole point of representational politics in fiction is that we redefine normal and what is acceptable and good by populating our stories, especially broad and mainstream ones like DW with people who have previously been excluded from those narratives.

 

Children have moldable minds and about 5% of them are gay, just like the rest of the population. Flashy cool gay characters for children are way more important (and rare) than nuanced and fleshed out characters who happen to be gay for adults. 

Edited by Yados
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Interesting thoughts Yados- please accept my up votes.

That said, I'm not entirely sure that I agree. Obviously, sexuality and gender identification are tricky subjects, representation even more so; at the moment, there simply isn't enough of it. Which is problematic in itself, but it also lends itself to certain implications about characters which might not otherwise be relevant.

Honestly, I think Moffats writing, in Who and Sherlock, is not particularly LBGT-friendly. On Who, Vastra and Jenny are cool characters; I enjoy them (partly because I love the Vctorian aesthetic)... but they also are a bit of a punchline. See their introduction, when Vastra wonders why Jenny puts up with her, followed by her using her tongue to knock someone out. Or their introduction in the Christmas special, being deliberately calculated to knock a Victorian man out with how uncharacteristic is for those times.

On their own, those aren't bad. After all, every LBGT individual being perfect is just as unrealistic as them being villainous. But in the pattern of Moffats other work, I'm a little less comfortable with it. The Fat-Thin Tall-Short Gay Anglican Marines for instance; again, a couple which I didn't mind, since I took their flippancy as part of their character (since one of them was awful chipper about conversion and all), but I have seen complaints about it.

Clara introduced herself to Rory by mentioning a former girlfriend, and brushing it off as her going through a phase. Again, on it's own, not especially bad; it's a character who apparently took time to figure out their sexuality, with gay/bi being mentioned as an option. Except that is never really mentioned again, as Clara falls for the Doctor.

Same goes for River Song; I believe it was implied that she at least kissed Cleopatra in Pandorica opens, but that is brushed under the carpet for her "real" love story- the normal, male/female one with the Doctor.

And, since I mentioned Sherlock... Irene Addler. One of- if not the only- character in that series to openly declare her sexuality as being gay, falls in love with Sherlock Holmes. And not only does she fall in love with him but she loses because of it...which I found particularly egregious, since Irene has a reputation as one of the few people to outwit him in the canon. Here though, he not only beats her at her game, but he makes a lesbian fall in love with him- not only in an emotional or intellectual sense, but to the point where she wants to ply her trade on him, and sends him a goodbye text?

Not to mention, where Jenny/Vastra and the Anglicans (and "Miss Addler") are played for jokes to an extent, the straight relationships aren't. Rory and Amy, Doctor and River, even Clara and the Doctor are possibly-romantic relationships that literally decide the fate of the universe. It's a little unbalanced to show "flashy and cool" gay characters on one hand, while implying it was a phase, or throwing off "I built a boyfriend" as a joke, whereas straight couples decide the fate of the cosmos. There's an imbalance there.

...

Oh, and I admit, I have a similar problem with the first two seasons of Torchwood. Among other problems, but still... I found it difficult to get invested in Jacks relationship with Ianto because it felt like the producers wanted to keep teasing Gwen... though, to be fair, Jack/Ianto did take on a world shattering importance to match Rory/Amy and Doctor/River, so it's a little less egregious, but still... Complicated situation.

Edited by Quiver
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I definitely agree with you.

 

I was talking about Jenny and Vastra as a concept, not passing judgement on Moffat's era of DW as a whole. That's a whole other discussion.

 

Doctor Who is a big ball of ... stuff. 

 

Moffat does tend to approach gay characters with flippancy. While I maintain that the childishness of Jenny and Vastra makes them subversive and therefore valuable (and there could even be a certain amount of value in otherwise straight characters making references to having a more fluid sexuality), I really can't say with certainty whether that's by design or coincidence. I'm just quantifying the value and maintaining that it exists. 

 

The only thing I would mention is that, while none of the few gay relationships have had the importance of the main ones in the series, they've certainly never been shown to be lesser than any of the relationships between other minor characters. The fat and thin married anglican marines haven't saved time and space with their love, but neither have Amy's parents or .... wow, there really aren't a lot of relationships in that show aside from Jenny and Vastra and the main cast. Some of the normals in that Silurian two parter in season 5? It's not like they ever came back... Craig and Sophie?

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I think I must be part of the minority here, but I think Strax is a brilliant character, and should be in it more.

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Hi all.

 

David Tennant is without doubt my favourite of the new doctors and Tom Baker from the older series. I liked all of Tennant's companions but I think Sarah Jane will always be my overall favourite.

 

Matt Smith has to be my least favourite, I didn't like him at all and though I thought the stories got better when Clara came into it, they still seemed pretty weak.

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Ten! I agree with Slowswift- amicable hiding something darker. He  For favorite companion- I liked Martha, but Rose was pretty awesome. Martha was just very logical. For example, instead of standing in shock when he's pronounced dead, she starts giving the Doctor CPR ("Smith and Jones"). Rose... I don't know, I just liked her.

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10th doctor would probably be my favorite. 2nd series (Tennant and Piper) was the best, in my opinion. Best thing about Tennant? Gadgets. He always had some new gadget that didn't quite work. The Easter special? 'Ooh, it turns' as the radar starts working. Why season 2 (of the revised series)? I like how he worked with Rose, and thought that as a whole, it was the best written series so far (Well, wasn't so fond of the London Olympics one, or the one with the Wire). That's not to say there weren't great episodes in the other series, but I think season 2 had most of what I'd call 'great' episodes.

 

Matt Smith was also pretty cool. He was fun, and Clara was probably my favourite companion. She went on day trips, rather than an impromptu vacation, and I liked that. Amy and Rory were not too bad either. Not super fond of Capaldi, but I really think that's more because I dislike the way Moffat's written the last season or so. Much preferred RTD as the show runner, I think. Moffat was better at writing once off episodes. Blink was obviously a gem, and I quite enjoyed the Silence in the Library double.

 

Doomsday was and it's pair was a great finale to season 2. After that, thing's escalated out of control.

Ohnoes, end of the world. No, wait... End of the Universe..., No wait, end of TIME.  Wait, no, the universe has ended now.

Edited by Haelbarde
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David Tennant is my favorite actor (period), and I'm tempted to say that Ten was my favorite Doctor. However, I simply adore the direction they're exploring with Twelve; they are, in a very real sense, pulling back the mask that the Doctor has worn since meeting Rose and revealing the unstable, broken man that they have always hinted lurked beneath.

 

Eleven was fun, and at times he really shined as a character (Rings of Akhaten), but he never settled on a self-definition. Matt Smith was magnificent, but his character fluctuated too much for me to ever attach myself to him.

 

The tightest and most well-written season has to go to Season 5, even though I wasn't a huge fan of any particular episode. I love Time of the Doctor, which was a near-perfect resolution for Eleven's character. Single best scene goes to Tennant's death, which can consistently make me cry. (I'm serious. I could go put it on right now, and I would start crying my eyes out). I was a fan of the Angels, and though I think it could have done with a few less plot devices, Byzantium was all-in-all a stellar episode (I especially liked the jaw-drop when you realize the two-heads thing). The Silence (the aliens, not the church) are my all-time favorite sci-fi race; I wish that more of their potential had been tapped, but what we saw was great.

 

I agree with the opinion that Moffat has a tendency to overuse all the most interesting races, though, rather than make more. He has driven the Daleks, Angels, and Cybermen into the ground, often reducing them to ridiculousness, such as in Angels take Manhattan (there were a few interesting things about that episode, but not one had to do with the Angels).

 

But then, we have to remember that Doctor Who is always going to be ridiculous at times. As Yados remarked, Doctor Who is a big ball of stuff; it's terrifying and silly, majestic and irreverent, lighthearted and grim. With such a mixed bag formula, the show will never be flawlessly gripping like Sherlock, and there will always be episodes that make us cringe. That's the price we pay for a show that is so frequently able to deliver such magnificently creative characters, stories, and settings; no other show can so perfectly inspire such a childlike sense of wonder in grown adults as this one. True, the quality of any episode is unpredictable -- but so is almost everything else about it.

Edited by Wonko the Sane
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Single best scene goes to Tennant's death, which can consistently make me cry. (I'm serious. I could go put it on right now, and I would start crying my eyes out). 

 

I'm jealous of your tears. I've never been able to cry for that scene. I blame this partially on the first time I watched it: I was sick with a terrible bout of bronchitis and I'd watched the entirity of Season 4 in a day and I used up all my tears on the previous episodes so I had none left to give. I also think his end was so brilliantly done that there's simply too much closure for me to feel sad for him. And it's not just that final scene in the TARDIS. From the second he steps out of the radiation room, the episode just continues to get better and better with every person he goes to see one last time. It's a phenomenal montage and then with the Ood singing his theme? Best farewell for a character ever.

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Any Doctor Who fans out there, or am I the only one?

 

If so, who's you favorite Doctor and why?

 

Who's your favorite companion and why?

 

What's your favorite story arc?

 

My favorite Doctor is 11. (Matt Smith) Because he's always playful until something serious happens. Then the gloves come off and he's a total boss.

 

My favorite companion is Rory. Just because he's so awesome. He's nice, caring and patient. (Need I remind you of the two thousand years he spent guarding Amy as a plastic Roman Centurion?) He may not be a huge manly man, but he is brave and does whatever it takes to protect Amy.

 

My favorite story arc is probably The end of season five. You know, with the whole "Pandorica Opens" thing. That was pretty great. Although Blink, the 50th Anniversary (can't remember the actual title at the moment) and the Day of the Doctor are pretty great too!

First of all I'd like to join

 

10 because he's hilarious, but more muted and tortured then smith.

Sarah Jane Smith. i just respect her

Fav. story arc? idk

 

 

 

Last but not least, the day of the doctor and the 50th anniversary are the same thing

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I'm also a Whovian! I'm a huge fan of Eleven and the Ponds are my favorite companion (all 3 of them, it totally counts). My favorite story arc is the backwards/forwards romance with River, and after that the arc with the Doctor prepping for his death by the lake in Utah.

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Tennant, he's so happy a lot of the time, but he has a hidden sadness and can be fierce when needed.

the arc with Donna being important, my favorite companion is Clara

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My favorite companion is Me. :ph34r:

Get it?

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I am very  whovian (if you couldn't tell). 

My favorite Doctor would have to be Ten or Eleven,

My favorite companion, (that's a hard one) would probably have to be Amy and Rory or Donna. 

My favorite story (also a hard one) would have to be Blink, Midnight, the Silence, the God Complex, the Empty child, or the Snowmen.

(I seriously watch all nine of the new seasons every summer, when I'm not reading, that is.)

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I (Rodel, that is) am a very avid Whovian. My favorite Doctor will have to be Patrick Troughton, the Second Doctor. While his episodes are in black and white and the special effects make me laugh, he brought a quirkiness and energy to the role that inspired many future Doctors(Like Matt Smith). I also love when he clashes with his future incarnations, such as the Sixth Doctor in The Two Doctors. A close second favorite is the Eighth. (Go listen to his audio dramas. They are canon.)

My favorite companion is definitely Nardole. He has only been in the last two Christmas specials so far but I am eager to see him in Series 10. After that, it would be Clara. This is shallow, but I have to agree with @Arthur Dent. She is really pretty.

My most favoritist story arc is River Song. Seeing all the episodes she is in, then putting the pieces together creates a beautiful work of art. After that would be the Cybermen. I feel that the Daleks are kind of generic, but the things they can do with Cybermen are awesome. (Seeing the classic Mondasian Cybermen return after 54 years is just wow.)

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I'm a whovian! My favorite Doctor is Peter Capadi followed closely by David Tennant*. My favorite companion is either Donna or Rory. Because they both are not afraid to tell The Doctor off when he endangers people. My favorite arc is the Cracks in the Skin of the Universe Season 5 arc. My favorite villain is probably the Ice Warriors or The Silence. The scene I can't get through without crying is the end of Vincent and The Doctor.

*10 is the Doctor that I cosplay when I go to my dork conventions. (See profile pic.)

 

Edited by theuntaintedchild
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On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 8:09 PM, Riversong said:

I am very  whovian (if you couldn't tell). 

My favorite Doctor would have to be Ten or Eleven,

My favorite companion, (that's a hard one) would probably have to be Amy and Rory or Donna. 

My favorite story (also a hard one) would have to be Blink, Midnight, the Silence, the God Complex, the Empty child, or the Snowmen.

(I seriously watch all nine of the new seasons every summer, when I'm not reading, that is.)

I always forget about The God Complex. It's one of my absolute favorites though. Such a clever title for the episode.

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If so, who's you favorite Doctor and why?

10th because he's cool. Idk He's just awesome.

Who's your favorite companion and why?

Clara because she's so nice and balances 12 out so well.

What's your favorite story arc?

you know i liked the River Song arc

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