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JamesW

Dragons in WOK? (Spoilers)

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So I haven't read through everything posted here, but I couldn't find a good thread that discussed the "dragons" on the inside cover.

The link to the image I'm referring to is here.

I've seen it pointed out a few times, but most people are interested in the symbols combining to form the orders of the KR, and the faces on the border representing the Heralds, but what about the dragons?

I can't be sure, but it looks like the claws are holding one of the Ideals, but those claws look somewhat crustacean in origin, maybe this relates to the great shells?

The prelude mentions the Dustbringers, could those be dragons?

The quote:

Smoke curled from the occasional patches of growth or heaps of burning corpses. Even some sections of rock smouldered. The Dustbringers had done their work well.

We also don't know what Greatshells pupate into, although there has been speculation, some say Thunderclasts, but what about how other creature's pupation works (I'm thinking caterpillars to butterflies, and going from a land creature to one that flies). What if a Greatshell pupates into a dragon, or dragon-like creature?

Also the gemhearts are used in soulcasting, which we know can turn one substance from one into the other. Could it be that the greatshells rise from the chasms, expose their gemheart to stormlight (thereby infusing them), and utilizing Shadesmar to change their body from one substance to another? (This might support the Thunderclast theory, since their limbs are "granite" but greatshells aren't made of stone.

Very rampant speculation on my part, and probably a repeat from some other thread, but I can't be the only one who thinks the background image looks like a pair of dragons with claws that happen to look like crustacean claws. (It even looks like there is a tail for each 'dragon'

JW

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I could be very wrong about this, but those images have never looked like dragons to me, more some kind of greatshell in my opinion. Brandon has this to say about Dragons in the Cosmere.

Do you think you will ever include dragons in your books?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Dragonsteel, a series I’ll do someday, has Dragons in it. Hint: This world/series is very important to Hoid.

Source

I think the fact that he doesn't mention TWoK here is telling, but not necessarily definitive. I still do find it rather unlikely though.

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Those look like disgusting-looking, giant spider-flies to me, just saying....

But it is an interesting thought of greatshells pupating into them. :D

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First, I think those things on the cover are supposed to be axehounds.

Second, there are a number of people (including me) who think the Dustbringers are one of the Radiant Orders (probably the second), while others think they are voidbringers.

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I agree that the creatures depicted on the chart are probably not actually dragons in any traditional sense, but I don't think they are axehounds either. They look kind of half insect (note the wasp tail, the six legs and the mandibles), half crustacean, (the claws), and it looks like they have wings too. Remember that this is supposed to be in-world art created by an in-world artist, so the actual creature these are based on might look a little different. However, based on all of this, I think it is at least safe to say that we have yet to see all of the really weird and nifty creatures that Brandon has created to inhabit Roshar.

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Those look like disgusting-looking, giant spider-flies to me, just saying....

To play devil's advocate:

Wouldn't the people of Roshar, whose giant beasts are all crustacean, mythologize Dragons as looking something like greatshells? They don't have any giant lizards (or any lizards?) on Roshar.

Much like they did with the Voidbringers in the drawing Jasnah showed Dalinar.

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I agree that the creatures depicted on the chart are probably not actually dragons in any traditional sense, but I don't think they are axehounds either. They look kind of half insect (note the wasp tail, the six legs and the mandibles), half crustacean, (the claws), and it looks like they have wings too. Remember that this is supposed to be in-world art created by an in-world artist, so the actual creature these are based on might look a little different. However, based on all of this, I think it is at least safe to say that we have yet to see all of the really weird and nifty creatures that Brandon has created to inhabit Roshar.

Axehounds do have six legs, mandibles, and a tail like that, according to the pictures of them.

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I like this idea, especially if you combine it with the theory that Hoid's letter in the epigraphs was addressed to a dragon (which comes from him calling the recipient 'you old reptile'). And I had never thought about what the greatshells could become... Maybe that has something to do with why the parshendi started the war?

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Well I was seeing the jaw of the creatures and a single claw holding the orb things, It looks also (to me) that the bottom part could be a tail instead of a leg. It does look like they have tails similar to a shrimp or something.

I was looking at it and saw dragons and it seemed like something brandon would do, surprise us with crabs turning into dragons.

And is it confirmed anywhere then all of the orders of the knights radiant were human? What if the dragons were part of the KR and they abandoned Roshar, travelling through shadesmar (much like Hoid) and moving to the Dragonsteel world.

That is a completely unfounded theory but it would be cool. Greatshells pupate into dragons, using their gemhearts full of stormlight to travel through shadesmar to another world. If any creature (other then Hoid who could be a dragon and still support this) could use shadesmar to travel across planets, i would suspect that the coolest would be a dragon with a gemheart.

JW

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Well I was seeing the jaw of the creatures and a single claw holding the orb things, It looks also (to me) that the bottom part could be a tail instead of a leg. It does look like they have tails similar to a shrimp or something.

I was looking at it and saw dragons and it seemed like something brandon would do, surprise us with crabs turning into dragons.

And is it confirmed anywhere then all of the orders of the knights radiant were human? What if the dragons were part of the KR and they abandoned Roshar, travelling through shadesmar (much like Hoid) and moving to the Dragonsteel world.

That is a completely unfounded theory but it would be cool. Greatshells pupate into dragons, using their gemhearts full of stormlight to travel through shadesmar to another world. If any creature (other then Hoid who could be a dragon and still support this) could use shadesmar to travel across planets, i would suspect that the coolest would be a dragon with a gemheart.

JW

There are regular humans that use Shadesmar to jump between worlds. We see three of them in the Nan Balat interlude.

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Do you mean the Ishikk interlude? Also, although it's the best and most likely explanation, we can't say definitively that Shadesmar is how they got to Roshar. After all Galladon would have some trouble leaving Sel since Shadesmar is all screwed up there.

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Those creatures in the image are something specific. RAFO.

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Those creatures in the image are something specific. RAFO.

Awesome!

But they are in no way dragons. They look to me like some kind of monstrous crustacean wasp. That thing that people keep referring to as a tail looks a bit like a stinger to me.

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Crabwasps! Come on people, I'm trying to coin a term here. Go with it :D

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Dragon or not, I'll maintain that they are crabdragons, and the result of pupating greatshells.

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After all Galladon would have some trouble leaving Sel since Shadesmar is all screwed up there.

How do you mean?

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So I haven't read through everything posted here, but I couldn't find a good thread that discussed the "dragons" on the inside cover.

The link to the image I'm referring to is here.

I've seen it pointed out a few times, but most people are interested in the symbols combining to form the orders of the KR, and the faces on the border representing the Heralds, but what about the dragons?

I can't be sure, but it looks like the claws are holding one of the Ideals, but those claws look somewhat crustacean in origin, maybe this relates to the great shells?

The prelude mentions the Dustbringers, could those be dragons?

The quote:

We also don't know what Greatshells pupate into, although there has been speculation, some say Thunderclasts, but what about how other creature's pupation works (I'm thinking caterpillars to butterflies, and going from a land creature to one that flies). What if a Greatshell pupates into a dragon, or dragon-like creature?

Also the gemhearts are used in soulcasting, which we know can turn one substance from one into the other. Could it be that the greatshells rise from the chasms, expose their gemheart to stormlight (thereby infusing them), and utilizing Shadesmar to change their body from one substance to another? (This might support the Thunderclast theory, since their limbs are "granite" but greatshells aren't made of stone.

Very rampant speculation on my part, and probably a repeat from some other thread, but I can't be the only one who thinks the background image looks like a pair of dragons with claws that happen to look like crustacean claws. (It even looks like there is a tail for each 'dragon'

JW

Well slap me stupid! I really had absolutely no clue what the images were behind the symbols. My best guess was it was some dude in a helmet.

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Those creatures in the image are something specific. RAFO.

Yay, a RAFO. So they're somewhat important, or at least it'll be explained. Rampant speculation time I suppose!

What about if the KR were all Human, is there any confirmation that they are or aren't all humans? I'm liking the idea that the dragons made up one of the orders.

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How do you mean?

Brandon once signed a copy of Elantris with "do not go to Shadesmar on this world, really I mean it".

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Yeah that's the quote. We're not quite sure why that is, although a lot of people seem to believe it's an affect of the Splintered Shards there. That would of course mean that Roshar has a similar problem though, and Shallan and Jasnah seemed okay. So we'll just have to see.

About dragon Radiants, my gut says that it's really unlikely, mostly based off of that quote above. I also think that some myths of dragons would have survived. My own totally random and unsupported idea is that they're images of Dawnsingers. This doesn't fit with what Kabsal says, but that ardents have been wrong before.

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Yeah, I think the myths about the dragons would have survived in some form, but even the legends of voidbringers are inaccurate to the point of being forgotten or dismissed by most.

I'm just thinking of things on their world that could melt stone, . Dragons, or creatures that resemble them could fill in that role, I just haven't seen anything remotely near the magic/technology level required to melt stone being present in Roshar. We have Fabrials, Shardblades/Plate, Surgebinding, Soulcasting, but none of these seem anywhere near capable of melting stone. Cutting through, manipulating or changing yes, but simply burning things seems more, primal I suppose.

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Also, those are flying creatures...I don't recall anything mentioning creatures that fly in TWoK.

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Well, when Teft is listing powers of the Radiants, he mentions some that could melt stone. So I think that it's most likely that they were melted by Radiants who had power over the Surge of Temperature or Heat (neither of those are confirmed). As Reader said, it's a very real possibility that the Dustbringers are Radiants who had that power.

Also Droz, we have examples of at least two flying creatures, off the top of my head. The Skyeels of Kharbranth and the songlings that Shallan remembers near her estate in Jah Keved.

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The heads of those creatures does seem somewhat draconic, but the rest looks like some sort of arthropod. By the RAFO, they probably has some significance, but saying they are dragons is a bit of a stretch.

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Why, exactly, would they have myths about dragons? Are we presuming there were dragonlike creatures at some point on Roshar, and if we are, upon what basis do we make this assumption? Considering the fauna of this world, their legends and myths would more likely be crustaceans or arthropods.

Besides, that image looks like a crabwasp if I ever saw one.

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