Races on Roshar

[Mimiddle04]

In an August interview Brandon said:

 

"QUESTION

Both Parshendi and Horneaters are able to see spren ordinary humans can't. Is there a connection between these abilities, or do they come from completely different sources?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Horneaters are human/Parshendi hybrids. (There are several Roshar races that have Parshendi blood in them.)"

I just want this thread to elaborate in anyway you guys can.  Theories, links to other interviews discussing the races, or general comments and questions about parshendi/human mixes.

From here on I will use Parshendi and Parshmen interchangeably because as far as I know they're the same species at their core.

The biggest question that comes to my mind is WHEN?  When could entire races have been started with the Parshendi? Before the Oath pact was broken the people would have known not to hang out and mate with Voidbringers, so the hybrid races would have to be younger than the last desolation I think.  

Also parshmen are slaves on most of Roshar.  While its not unheard to have offspring with a slave, we aren't talking about a few bastard children here and there.  We're talking about entire races and cultures.  That means a large enough population of these people had to be around to make a sustainable breeding population.  And he doesn't say the Horneaters are the only ones.  He says there are several.  

These are two questions this information brought to my mind but I'd like to hear anything else anyone can think of.

 

[Unhinged]

Well I believe that the Horneaters ability to see spren probably comes more from their habit of bathing in shardpools then from their Parshendi ancestry, after all Shallan had a little Horneater blood but she can't see Syl. Although it could just be that her blood was diluted.

 

As for when could these races have happened I would assume that it would either be from very early on in Roshars history before Odium showed up before the Parshendi became bloodthirsty monsters. Although it is possible that the Voidbringers engage in rape so I wouldn't say it's to much of a stretch for the races to have started that way.

 

My next question is that if these Races are part Pashendi does that mean they could also be affected by odium?

[Kurkistan]

Well I believe that the Horneaters ability to see spren probably comes more from their habit of bathing in shardpools then from their Parshendi ancestry, after all Shallan had a little Horneater blood but she can't see Syl. Although it could just be that her blood was diluted.

 

It depends how broadly you interpret "physiological".

[Mimiddle04]

My next question is that if these Races are part Pashendi does that mean they could also be affected by odium?

 

That was another thought I had but I didn't want my OP getting too long.  If Shallan has Horneater blood, because of her red hair, and Horneaters have Parshendi blood, and she's a Radiant, then it would make sense to me that it could work the opposite way.  Any race with Parshendi blood could conceivably bond an Odium spren.  Elhokar for example?  I actually don't know if he's full Alethi or not but I know he sees "them" in the shadows and in mirrors and a lot of people have guessed he might be being influenced by Odium.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[Oudeis]

 

The biggest question that comes to my mind is WHEN?

 

 

From what I can gather of the history of the listeners out on the Shattered Plains, they've been living free since the Aharietam. They were a specific group of Voidbringers called the Last Legion who managed to break free of Odious control. Perhaps groups like the Unkalaki, the Horneaters, are descendede from other groups?

 

My other, highly speculative theory, based on the creation myth Rock tells in the chapter Patriots, is that the listeners went to the Nightwatcher. He says they went to the greatest gods, and at the time admits that they consider the spren to be gods. So they ask a powerful spren for a boon. Sounds like the Old Magic to me. I wonder. If they asked, "please, save us from the humans who want us dead because they don't care that we were under the control of Odium when we killed 90% of them" maybe the Nightwatcher changed them all into something far closer to human.

 

Just one man's guess.

[king of nowhere]

One possibility is that the voidbringers mass raped during their conquest, and the half-breed children were discriminated and so went to live by themselves. I don't think it's likely because sanderson generally avoids that kind of topic, but otherwise it's very realistic. there are several real-world instances of a conquering army leaving a distinct genetic trace that can still be seen after a millennia.

Another possibility is that the interbreeding happened before odium showed up.

[Moogle]

My next question is that if these Races are part Pashendi does that mean they could also be affected by odium?

 

Listeners are "affected" by Odium only when they bond to one of his spren. Horneaters can't bond spren, so I doubt it. There's quite a few hints around that humans are of Honor and Odium (and possibly Cultivation too?), however, and we knew by WoB that Lin Davar was "influenced" by Odium (to what degree is an open question).

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[Oudeis]

Do you happen to have that WoB? I looked for it the other day and I'd like to know i have the wording right.

[Moogle]

Do you happen to have that WoB? I looked for it the other day and I'd like to know i have the wording right.

 

Here you go. It's a very big non-answer:

Q:  Was Shallan's father influenced at all by Odium?

B.  Yes.

(source)

 

Any Investiture in you at all influences your personality, so every human on Roshar having Odium in them would be enough for Brandon to answer "yes" here. Hoid does say that what Shallan's dealing with isn't natural, however.

[Mimiddle04]

Listeners are "affected" by Odium only when they bond to one of his spren. 

 

This is just the impression I've gotten from the books and other sources, but not from a specific chapter or WoB, so I don't have a quote supporting it.  I always saw it as Pashmen/Parshendi were more prone to influence from Odium even though they aren't completely of him.  And humans were closer to Honor.  Each race is of both, or possibly of all three, but some races are closer to Odium and some are closer to Honor.  This closeness makes each race easier to influence by the perspective Shard.

 

Horneaters can't bond spren, so I doubt it. 

 

I don't think Horneaters are prevented from bonding spren anymore than other peoples.  In fact Shallan who, as far as we know, has Horneater blood has bonded a spren.  Is there a WoB or some other reason you think they can't?

Edited December 2, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[Kurkistan]

This is just the impression I've gotten from the books and other sources, but not from a specific chapter or WoB, so I don't have a quote supporting it.  I always saw it as Pashmen/Parshendi were more prone to influence from Odium even though they aren't completely of him.  And humans were closer to Honor.  Each race is of both, or possibly of all three, but some races are closer to Odium and some are closer to Honor.  This closeness makes each race easier to influence by the perspective Shard.

 

Some fun WoB's on the whole "are the Parshendi of X" question.

 

Odium: Not originally. Cultivation: Not originally. Honor: No.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ookla the Invoked

[Moogle]

This is just the impression I've gotten from the books and other sources, but not from a specific chapter or WoB, so I don't have a quote supporting it.  I always saw it as Pashmen/Parshendi were more prone to influence from Odium even though they aren't completely of him.  And humans were closer to Honor.  Each race is of both, or possibly of all three, but some races are closer to Odium and some are closer to Honor.  This closeness makes each race easier to influence by the perspective Shard.

 

I'm not sure there's an example of anyone in the Cosmere being manipulated by a Shard just because they've got a piece of that Shard in them as innate Investiture, so I don't really share your feelings here. (Prime example: Preservation had no special ability to directly manipulate people in general, nor did Ruin.) When the listeners are being "manipulated", it's because they've got a voidspren bonded to them, as far as I can tell.

 

I don't think Horneaters are prevented from bonding spren anymore than other peoples.  In fact Shallan who, as far as we know, has Horneater blood has bonded a spren.  Is there a WoB or some other reason you think they can't?

 

Sorry, I completely messed up when writing that. I meant that Horneaters can't bond spren like listeners (so far as we know), as in seemingly meld with them. Humans can't really bond voidspren like Nahel spren (is this even the proper word for them?) either, by WoB:

Q:  Can anyone other than a Parshendi bond a voidspren? Like, can a human bond a voidspren?

A:  That is theoretically possible but humans are not good at bonding spren in the same way.

(source)

 

This does leave open the question of what was up with Shallan's father - I'm more inclined to believe an Unmade was influencing him than Odium directly (but this would still count as Lin being "influenced" by Odium). Odium seems to have been limited from directly interfering with Roshar somehow by Honor, though I grant this is just speculation on my part.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Ookla the Infinite

[kari-no-sugata]

Excuse me while I de-cloak for a minute...

 

 This does leave open the question of what was up with Shallan's father - I'm more inclined to believe an Unmade was influencing him than Odium directly (but this would still count as Lin being "influenced" by Odium). Odium seems to have been limited from directly interfering with Roshar somehow by Honor, though I grant this is just speculation on my part.

 

I had some similar thoughts on this...

 

I suspect that this "influence" would also apply to Shallan's mother and quite possibly her entire family. And pretty much everyone around them - that rather than Lin being personally targeted I suspect it's something more akin to the Lord Ruler's soothing stations spread out through his city... but with real malicious intent behind it. I wouldn't be surprised if all the more mindless Unmade are "broadcasting" a particular corrupting influence each. The influence over a single day would be quite small but would build up over time, rotting away the foundations of society. Some people would be more susceptible than others - perhaps Lin was particularly susceptible.

 

When Shallan "persuades" the deserters to help her (and change their lives around) not everyone was affected equally - some were more easily persuaded and some were not persuaded (it was much later into the book before Shallan won over the leader). Imagine that positive influence over a small area, then invert it to be a negative influence and then spread it out over a huge area. Maybe that's what some of the Unmade are doing (though whether they are using similar Surges or not I have no idea).

 

[Unhinged]

My other, highly speculative theory, based on the creation myth Rock tells in the chapter Patriots, is that the listeners went to the Nightwatcher. He says they went to the greatest gods, and at the time admits that they consider the spren to be gods. So they ask a powerful spren for a boon. Sounds like the Old Magic to me. I wonder. If they asked, "please, save us from the humans who want us dead because they don't care that we were under the control of Odium when we killed 90% of them" maybe the Nightwatcher changed them all into something far closer to human.

 

 

That's a really cool idea. But there's just one thing, if that was their boon then what was the curse that went with it?

[Oudeis]

That's a really cool idea. But there's just one thing, if that was their boon then what was the curse that went with it?

Losing their songs, I would guess.

[cuimhne]

Ooklalhoo'Elin:

 

The actual quote from Rock's story is, "Last, tana'kai--desperate--visited most powerful of gods, gods of mountains." I don't think the Nightwatcher could be considered a spren of the mountains (mountainspren?). Other threads on this site pretty well establish her as Cultivation. You may be thinking along the right lines, though. On the other hand, the story is a metaphor and is presumably ancient, so we don't know what may have been altered or changed. Aside from that nitpicking, cool theory.

 

Losing their songs is also an interesting aspect. As Rock tells Kaladin in book one "[My name] is poem. On peaks, everyone's name is poem." Duels are "fought" by singing or reciting insults that parallel the person's name. When Dunny sings, Rock says that he thought no lowlanders could sing, which (along with him harmonizing with Dunny) strongly implies a great respect/love of song in Rock and likely his entire people. So perhaps they have a faint memory of hearing the rhythms, much like the Alethi have a faint memory of Radiants all having light eyes (hence social structure).

[Oudeis]

Your point is valid; my theory is far from holeproof. It's just something I'm going to consider while I wait for additional information; perhaps I'll ask questions about it if I can get to a Firefight signing.

 

That said... I'm not wholly convinced the holes are quite as big as you're pointing out. We know she lives in a Valley. Valleys are typically between mountains. It's possible that she was once considered "the spren of the mountain" that she's at the foot of. Also, if she is a spren, she's definitely one of the most powerful ones. And lastly, the point you brought up; the myth is ancient, and it's possible small details got changed. "A spren who lives near a mountain" got shortened to "the spren of a mountain," for example.

 

But, obviously, this is all justification. You're right, a strict reading of the myth pokes some holes in my guess. I in no way expect anyone else to fall in line with my reasoning, it's just something I'm personally gonna consider until I get new information.