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Vin vs Shallan


Sylphrena117

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I agree.  But that's fine.  I'm pretty sure that, regardless of her talents with sneaking around with her Mistborn abilities, she'd lose to Shallan as an outright spy in the social sense.  Yes, she managed to pose as a lady, but had trouble and that's one guise.  Shallan has ALREADY managed to pose as multiple people in great ways and she's just starting out.  They have different talents.  It'd be like comparing Shallan to Kaladin.

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Yes, she managed to pose as a lady, but had trouble and that's one guise.  Shallan has ALREADY managed to pose as multiple people in great ways and she's just starting out.

 

Vin had trouble acting like a lady because she grew up a street urchin.  She pulled it off well enough to get the most powerful eligible bachelor in her country to fall in love with her.  I'd say that's a pretty great job.

 

Shallan got caught by the Ghostbloods.  I'd say that counts as a fail.  She got past Amaram posing as a darkeyes, not nearly as impressive as Vin posing as a noble in my opinion.  I fail to see her "great" accomplishments so far is what I'm saying.

 

I just think people focus entirely too much on fighting when there's other ways to be badass.

 

I know there is more than one way to be useful or as you put it badass.  I think everyone here is focusing on who would win in a fight because the OP says "Shallan or Vin... If they had to fight each other, who do you think would win?"  

 

If you'd like to change topics to who is a better spy, I'd say it's much more even.  Shallan, with her new found confidence, would probably come out on top because her abilities make her an almost perfect spy.  And with Pattern to mimic people's voices she could theoretically fool anyone.  

 

I still think Vin stands a fighting chance though.  She can sneak into almost anywhere and has proven that a few times over the trilogy.  She also, as I pointed out above, impersonated a Lady well enough to land herself a very powerful man.  So she's no slouch with just makeup and disguises.  One advantage Vin would have is her ability to fly which can gain her access to rooms Shallan would have to use lightweaving to get into, and we already saw how she almost got caught using lightweaving to get into Amaram's.  Vin could have gotten in easier but doesn't have the memory ability to record all the maps so I don't know what she'd do once she was in.

 

So I think with practice Shallan would surpass Vin as a spy, but I don't think it would be as one sided as a fight between the two of them.

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Hahaha Vin would be holding a GlassBlade to her throat before Shallan could think of something 'witty' to say.

And if Shallan even decides to use her Shardblade, she'd still probably wait the ten seconds anyway, not realizing that she doesn't need to. Thus in that time period she'd clearly be killed by Vin either by the obsidian dagger or some other allomantic ability because I'm sure she would have some form of metal on her person that could be effected by allomancy.

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I'm going to breeze over a few of the arguments that have been made so far and just get right to it...

 

Unless Shallan is able to soulcast vin into smoke or something...Vin is going to trash her...Vin will then proceed to exterminate everyone else on Roshar just so they can't come worldhopping over to Scadrial looking for revenge.

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So two things:

 

First personally I do not feel mistborn are "less" invested. The lord ruler was able to push on Vin because he was a lerasium mistborn, and had compounding and was a savant. Actually as I type this, I think pushing on metals in the body and your investment aren't connected at all. Kelsier never said you couldn't push on metals in OTHER MISTINGS/MISTBORNS bodies. He said they couldn't do so PERIOD. So i take that to mean ordinary joe, misting, mistborn, as long as the metal pierces you, it is harder to push on. So if it doesn't matter whether or not you are invested to determine if metal can be pushed inside you, then that is not a reason to judge how invested mistings and misborn are. 

 

Second, it has been a little while since I read stormlight, but couldn't Shallan theoretically soulcast the air around Vin into a box of whatever material she choses? Pewter makes you strong, but not enough to punch through feet worth of solid rock, or metal, or diamond. Then she would eventually suffocate and die. Though this would require Vin staying put, which she wouldn't. Just a thought I had

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Air has been air for so long that it would probably take it a very experienced soulcaster to convince the air to change. I honestly think Shallan convincing Vin to change to smoke would be a better gamble. Either way, Shallan would be dead before she could get around to convincing Vin to change her basic form.

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Hmmm, perhaps Jasnah would have a better chance then. I am not saying she would beat Vin, I am still in agreement with just about everyone on this thread that as things currently stand, Vin would win. Just with Jasnah's greater proficiency with soulcasting, she might possibly, at a stretch, if she tried really hard and fast, in the right light, on the right day, with a breeze in the right direction, catch Vin before she kills her lol

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I think duralumin and atium would allow Vin to see that, and counteract it prior to Jasnah even thinking of it. I wonder if copper would block the long-range Soulcasting that Jasnah did.

I am curious about that as well. copper does block emotional allomancy, but does not block the other forms of allomancy, so would it block lightweaving which is sorta emotional surgebinding but not soulcasting?

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First personally I do not feel mistborn are "less" invested. The lord ruler was able to push on Vin because he was a lerasium mistborn, and had compounding and was a savant. Actually as I type this, I think pushing on metals in the body and your investment aren't connected at all. Kelsier never said you couldn't push on metals in OTHER MISTINGS/MISTBORNS bodies. He said they couldn't do so PERIOD. So i take that to mean ordinary joe, misting, mistborn, as long as the metal pierces you, it is harder to push on. So if it doesn't matter whether or not you are invested to determine if metal can be pushed inside you, then that is not a reason to judge how invested mistings and misborn are.

The reason a mistborn could be considered less Invested is because he doesn´t holds additional Investure in his body. Surgebinders and Awakeners directly hold the Investure they fuel their magic with. Mistborns on the other hand get their Investure send to them by the Shard itself, the metal only functioning as a beacon. A Mistborn might not have less innate Investure (or they might, I don´t really know to be honest) but they are one of the few magic users we know that don´t hold additional Investure to protect them from outside influences, which is also one of the reasons they don´t glow.

 

I am curious about that as well. copper does block emotional allomancy, but does not block the other forms of allomancy, so would it block lightweaving which is sorta emotional surgebinding but not soulcasting?

I´m not sure if copper would block Lightweaving. From what I gathered Illumination doesn´t directly manipulates someone´s senses but creates illusions which then get perceived, so having internal protection wouldn´t help against that. From my guess copper would actually have a better chance at blocking forms of Surgebinding that need to Invest it´s victim directly like Soulcasting or the basic lashing.

Although this got me thinking about bronze vs. lightweaving, given that bronze seems to only sense pulses from other Investure Shallan could probably still use her illusion to hide "something" because Vin will only know that there is an illusion, not what is actually under the illusion. Less effective but still useful.

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That begs the question "Do emotional metals pull on you in the cognitive realm or the physical realm or the spiritual realm?" If they pull on you in the cognitive realm, then copper would be able to stop Soulcasting. If it pulls on you in the Spiritual or Phisical realm, copper wouldn't do anything.

 

Maybe tin can help you see through illusions.

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The reason a mistborn could be considered less Invested is because he doesn´t holds additional Investure in his body. Surgebinders and Awakeners directly hold the Investure they fuel their magic with. Mistborns on the other hand get their Investure send to them by the Shard itself, the metal only functioning as a beacon. A Mistborn might not have less innate Investure (or they might, I don´t really know to be honest) but they are one of the few magic users we know that don´t hold additional Investure to protect them from outside influences, which is also one of the reasons they don´t glow.

 

I´m not sure if copper would block Lightweaving. From what I gathered Illumination doesn´t directly manipulates someone´s senses but creates illusions which then get perceived, so having internal protection wouldn´t help against that. From my guess copper would actually have a better chance at blocking forms of Surgebinding that need to Invest it´s victim directly like Soulcasting or the basic lashing.

Although this got me thinking about bronze vs. lightweaving, given that bronze seems to only sense pulses from other Investure Shallan could probably still use her illusion to hide "something" because Vin will only know that there is an illusion, not what is actually under the illusion. Less effective but still useful.

So I am asking these questions, not to criticize, nor disprove what I said, but to make sure I understand what you wrote correctly. So since the metals are the portal, then if I am continually burning pewter, would I then have a higher level of investiture since it is continually pouring through me than when I just have the metals in my body and I am not burning? Also then by that logic, as long as a surgebinder is not actually holding stormlight in them, then they are low investiture beings? So then the level of their investiture relies on how much stormlight they are holding at the time? So theoretically if a mistborn is flaring pewter while a surgebinder has like two gems worth of stormlight, then in that case the mistborn would be more heavily invested?

 

Well the reason I stated lightweaving, is Shallan lightweaving herself affected how she perceived herself, and how the group of marauders saw her. she brought out their good nature with her "lie" of them. I saw this as a force of almost emotional allomancy. I also realize it would be difficult for copper to work against it since they are different power systems, but I just saw a similarity there and was curious. 

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That begs the question "Do emotional metals pull on you in the cognitive realm or the physical realm or the spiritual realm?" If they pull on you in the cognitive realm, then copper would be able to stop Soulcasting. If it pulls on you in the Spiritual or Phisical realm, copper wouldn't do anything.

 

Maybe tin can help you see through illusions.

Mhmmm... from what I remember hemalurgy makes it easier to manipulate someone through emotional allomany because it creates cracks in the spirit web, so I would assume it´s spiritual.

 

So I am asking these questions, not to criticize, nor disprove what I said, but to make sure I understand what you wrote correctly. So since the metals are the portal, then if I am continually burning pewter, would I then have a higher level of investiture since it is continually pouring through me than when I just have the metals in my body and I am not burning? Also then by that logic, as long as a surgebinder is not actually holding stormlight in them, then they are low investiture beings? So then the level of their investiture relies on how much stormlight they are holding at the time? So theoretically if a mistborn is flaring pewter while a surgebinder has like two gems worth of stormlight, then in that case the mistborn would be more heavily invested?

 

Well the reason I stated lightweaving, is Shallan lightweaving herself affected how she perceived herself, and how the group of marauders saw her. she brought out their good nature with her "lie" of them. I saw this as a force of almost emotional allomancy. I also realize it would be difficult for copper to work against it since they are different power systems, but I just saw a similarity there and was curious. 

That´s more or less how I understood it, yes. Although, I don´t know how much Stormlight pewter would equate or if it counts given that it´s only "passing through" so to speak. Has there ever been a mention of emotional allomancy being less effective on people burning pewter or other internal metals, other than copper?

 

Depends on how much of that was magic and how much Shallans presence but yeah I didn´t think about that part. My guess is that it could block not allomantic emotion manipulation as well.

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That´s more or less how I understood it, yes. Although, I don´t know how much Stormlight pewter would equate or if it counts given that it´s only "passing through" so to speak. Has there ever been a mention of emotional allomancy being less effective on people burning pewter or other internal metals, other than copper?

 

Depends on how much of that was magic and how much Shallans presence but yeah I didn´t think about that part. My guess is that it could block not allomantic emotion manipulation as well.

Not that I can recall, but I am reading through mistborn for a 3rd time just because I enjoy that trilogy so much, so if I notice anything, I will definitely let you know.

 

Yeah, it was very vague in how that exactly worked, like how she inspired Blueth (did I remember the name correctly? It has been awhile since I read it, I am referring to the slave driver guard with the hat) by drawing him differently, and helped him become a better person. She was not actually using stormlight during it, and yet seemed to have a magical affect of transformation. 

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When posting to this thread previously...I have assumed the black and white "arena combat" vs. and jumped right to...vin would totally win (I'd much rather be an allomancer than a lightweaver/soulcaster)...but...there is the fun killing, semi-realistic argument of..."why would they be fighting in the first place?"

Both are people who are not afraid to get their hands dirty in order to accomplish their goals...but at the same time...are not totally devoid of morality and reason altogether.

A better question may be...how would mistborn have turned out if Shallan were a member of the crew?

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Don't care how long ago this thread was started, I missed it and Shallan needs some defending!  And a week since last post isn't really necro--is it?

 

First, though,  if we're comparing Vin at the end of Mistborn to Shallan at the end of WoR, Vin would win.  Also, Vin at most points would beat Shallan at the end of WoR.  Why?  Because Vin has a singularity of purpose and focus that is almost always 'survival.'  Occasionally it branches beyond this, but this is also usually when she starts having problems.  Vin's childhood experiences forced this focus upon her, and she ran with it, owned it, and made it her own.  

 

However, if Shallan is to have some idea of the fight occurring at all (which, as of the end of WoR, is the only way there will be a fight, instead of Vin killing Shallan in her sleep), there's strong potential that has been largely overlooked--her illusions.  I would be intensely curious to know if someone burning atium would see the shadows of, say, a dozen illusory Shallan's swinging at Vin all at once.  Would someone burning atium be able to see the future-shadows even with their eyes closed, or blind?  It might suck if a miniature ball as bright as the sun were anchored to your face, making it impossible to see.  Illusory walls, pits, fires, spikes, dead brothers, voices of dead brothers, Kelsier, Sazed, Elend, loved ones and hated ones all shouting at her from all directions.  Ground rising up just a little bit more than it looks like, or dropping a little bit less; how often do you stumble and almost fall down stairs due to thinking there is one more stair, or you're at the bottom?

 

Of course, the sustained assault of illusions wouldn't win a fight against Vin; I'd still bet on her winning.  But to think that a Shallan as confident with her powers as Vin is with her own would be useless in a fight is terribly naive.  And I think Vin would fare better against the illusory assault than almost anyone, just because of that singularity of focus; it's possible that she'd be able to actually block out everything that wasn't real, didn't matter, and convince herself that by stabbing Elend, she would actually be killing Shallan.  

 

[it's quite possible that copper might block the emotional affect of Shallan's Lightweaving, and Vin is experienced enough to be wary of emotional pulls and tugs, so that's possibly not effective; if you don't like the knowledge liberties I've taken of those close to Vin, and believe that it would be impossible for Shallan and Pattern to find out, that's also fine; terrain, blinding, illusory decoys that attack and flee, and Stormlight healing alone would help to ensure Shallan's survival in the fight unless Vin resorted to pure brute tactics suggested by Moogle.]

 

Add in some Soulcasting, and basic hand to hand/combat training, and I'd start to be more inclined to say Shallan end of Book 4 might have a good shot at winning, and probably would win unless Vin has atium.

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