Jump to content

Vin vs Shallan


Sylphrena117

Recommended Posts

Definitely Vin.

Words of Radiance Spoilers

I mean the only thing that gives Shallan a little bit of a chance is her shardblade, but she doesn't know how to use it(she isn't trained to fight). Vin is a trained assassin. She could kill Shallan easily.

Edited by gjustice99
Link to comment
Share on other sites

why do you expect shallan, who clearly has no combat experience, to go up against one of the most deadly character sanderson ever wrote? If it was szeth against vin, now that would be something intersting to see.

Of course, given the specific kind of powers shallan has, she might be able to win if she could prepare the terrain first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a Cosmere discussion, so I'm moving it-all-over to Cosmere.

 

That being said, right now, I'm pretty sure Vin would win. The only way Shallan could possibly have a chance is if Vin's stripped of metals, and Shallan's got quite a bit more time to train. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Shallan was really clever with her illusions she could stand a chance. (spoilers are for Steelheart)

I mean look at Megan despite having no combat abilities she managed to almost get David killed with her illusions and she was going easy on him.

Edited by Unhinged
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lightwoven illusion would almost certainly read as a source of Investiture to someone burning bronze. At best, it would confuse Vin temporarily in the same way the mist spirit did, or redirect her attention to it briefly- like Ruin's false Mistborn in Hero of Ages did -or at worst she would simply ignore it, because she knows there's nothing there except some kind of strange magic.

 

If Shallan could combat-Soulcast, I think that trumps virtually everything- except for one small problem; she'd have to convince Vin to change. And good luck with that. With Jasnah and the thugs in the alley, she pretty much just commanded them to change by sheer force of will and they did. I doubt Shallan could do something similar.

 

A Shardblade would give her an advantage- no one in their right mind would get close to a six foot sword, and the moment Vin figured out she couldn't Push on it she'd probably keep her distance. After that, Shallan is pretty much a sitting duck unless she can get Pattern to distract Vin, but then she can't use her Shardblade, and that would probably not distract her for very long. Stormlight healing would keep her alive for a while, but I seriously doubt she could get away from Vin fast enough for it to matter. In other words, Shallan is screwed unless we're assuming she has a serious power upgrade.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shallan is a wimp. She would never consider​ fighting unless someone cornered her (like a chasm fiend or Tin). When you consider the facts, such as Vin can burn Atium and all Shallan can do is soul cast (almost), show pretty pictures in 3D, and cower in fear, there is no contest. Kaladin in shardplate might give Vin a run for her money, but one well placed dagger and he's gone. Kaladin out of Shardplate would probably be tougher to kill, but Atium is still a thing. If Kaladin could stay alive until Vin ran out of Atium, that would be awesome.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So there are basically 3 WoB that I found that help us determine who'd win:

 

A:  Okay, so they don't count, the Shards of Adonalsium don't count … does Kelsier have atium?
Q:  Yes.
A:  Then … a Mistborn burning atium is really hard to beat in any other way.
Q:  So you think that Kelsier would beat Vin?
A:  Oh, Kelsier would beat Vin if he had atium and she didn't. If they both did? Vin has more raw talent, Kelsier has more experience. So if you can pick Vin after she has more experience she will give him a fair fight, otherwise, not.

 

This is a general question that was asked about which of all of his characters would win in a fight.  He basically said if they have Atium it's going to be a mistborn.

 

As far as Shallan's Shardblade helping her:

 

"Q:  Will Allomancy affect Shardblades?
A:  It cannot affect Shardblades.  Well, cannot is a strong term.  Things with innate Investiture are much more difficult to affect by any of the magics at all.  Which is why it's very hard for Szeth to bind people or lash people whering Shardplate to the ceiling.  In the same way Allomancy wouldn't be able to push on it without some help.  Duralumin with a strong Push would probably do it.
Q:  I was just wondering if it was actually metal.
A:  It is metalish--it's metal enough for Allomancy to work on it."

 

That seems to imply a Shardblade would still have an Atium Shadow.  Maybe a smaller amount of time into the future than a normal object?  But it'd still show up.  So her Shardblade is unlikely to be much use.

 

As for Soulcasting.  Using the above reasoning Shallan could technically Soulcast Vin.  But Vin is heavily invested and so Soulcasting her would be extremely difficult for someone good at Soulcasting, and we know Shallan isn't very good at it so far.

 

The last WoB I thought might apply is:

 

Q:  Could a person soulcast more Atium and Lerasium if they had a bead?
A:  No.  Investiture messes things like that up.

 

So you can't make invested metals/objects using Soulcasting, but this Q & A might also imply you can't unmake an invested item.  So either it's extremely difficult to use Soulcasting against Vin, or its actually impossible.

 

Given her lack of training and Vin's advanced fighting abilities I have to ask OP why they thought this would be a good fight?  I'm not trying to be condescending, I am genuinely curious what abilities Shallan posses that you thought would pose a problem for Vin.

Edited by Mimiddle04
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you can't make invested metals/objects using Soulcasting, but this Q & A might also imply you can't unmake an invested item.  So either it's extremely difficult to use Soulcasting against Vin, or its actually impossible.

 

Allomancers are low-Investiture, as they don't even glow. Vin, while she was burning metals, still wasn't immune to TLR Pushing on metals inside her. I doubt she has any more than a minor boost to her Soulcasting resistance, unless she's drawing on the mists during this battle.

Edited by Ookla the Infinite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Allomancers are low-Investiture, as they don't even glow. Vin, while she was burning metals, still wasn't immune to TLR Pushing on metals inside her. I doubt she has any more than a minor boost to her Soulcasting resistance, unless she's drawing on the mists during this battle.

 

That means they're more easily influenced than say a Shardblade or Plate.  But that still leaves the other WoB saying you can't Soulcast objects with investiture.  I'd extrapolate that to mean you also can't soulcast an invested object into something without it.  I know your argument will still holds weight here because all humans have some innate investiture and Jasnah still Soulcast a few of them.  I'm just going with a complete guess that an Allomancer has enough to not be unmade, no real evidence, just a guess.

 

It also leaves the WoB saying a full Mistborn is really powerful and would probably win against his other protagonists as long as the Mistborn had Atium.  So he must have in his head an idea of why a Mistborn could beat a Soulcaster.  Or he hasn't thought that deeply into it because his answer was just off the top of his head at a signing.  I like to think he has thought it through though because I feel it'd be natural to think about these things when writing an entire Cosmere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That means they're more easily influenced than say a Shardblade or Plate.  But that still leaves the other WoB saying you can't Soulcast objects with investiture.  I'd extrapolate that to mean you also can't soulcast an invested object into something without it.  I know your argument will still holds weight here because all humans have some innate investiture and Jasnah still Soulcast a few of them.  I'm just going with a complete guess that an Allomancer has enough to not be unmade, no real evidence, just a guess.

 

I'd speculate that you just can't convert Investiture of one Shard to another. Nothing you do will make Stormlight into Breath, for example (though, again, speculation). I was calling this "conservation of Intent" for a while. I feel this adequately explains why you can't Soulcast something into lerasium or atium, since Soulcasting uses some combination of Honor/Cultivation, and those two metals are pure Investiture of another Shard.

 

Doing the opposite and converting things with Investiture into things without should be possible, if difficult in cases of Shardblades and the like (as you note, humans with innate Investiture can be converted).

 

It also leaves the WoB saying a full Mistborn is really powerful and would probably win against his other protagonists as long as the Mistborn had Atium.  So he must have in his head an idea of why a Mistborn could beat a Soulcaster.  Or he hasn't thought that deeply into it because his answer was just off the top of his head at a signing.  I like to think he has thought it through though because I feel it'd be natural to think about these things when writing an entire Cosmere.

 

Depends. The WoB doesn't say outright that they'd probably win. WoB:

Q:  Which of your characters do you think would win in a fight?

A:  Uh … at what stage in their career?

Q:  Not the Slivers.

A:  Okay, so they don't count, the Shards of Adonalsium don't count … does Kelsier have atium?

Q:  Yes.

A:  Then … a Mistborn burning atium is really hard to beat in any other way.

Q:  So you think that Kelsier would beat Vin?

A:  Oh, Kelsier would beat Vin if he had atium and she didn't. If they both did? Vin has more raw talent, Kelsier has more experience. So if you can pick Vin after she has more experience she will give him a fair fight, otherwise, not.

(source)

 

All he says is that they'd be "really hard to beat", but I take major issue with that idea.

 

A Feruchemist should have no problems demolishing any Mistborn as far as I'm concerned, since they can just tap a bunch of speed, strength, and weight. (Sazed, it should be noted, had issues with Marsh only because he was a) an awful Feruchemist who didn't have a powergaming bone in his body, unlike Vin, B) had just finished tapping years worth of stores to fight koloss, and c) Marsh was a Feruchemist too.) Atium doesn't enhance your physical capabilities, and you'd have to be pre-burning atium to even fight a Feruchemist.

 

You also probably can't dodge Soulcasting "lightning" like Jasnah throws. I think this qualifies under the umbrella of things that are "really hard" to do, so the WoB still works. Though I originally thought otherwise, I think a Mistborn could beat Szeth or Kaladin via atium and a duralumin pewter punch at their heads. It's just the Soulcasting people that will give them problems so far as we know on Roshar (though I retain the right to change my mind when we see how ridiculous other Surges are, like if Shallan really can make sun-lasers and disintegrate things at will like Teft implies is possible).

 

I also don't feel Brandon really has thought about what magic user would really win a battle in-depth enough that his answer is what he'd go for if he, say, were spending a few days thinking about it in preparation for writing a cross-Cosmere novel. His answers whenever people ask him things like "who's stronger" at signings always seem hesitant to me.

Edited by Ookla the Infinite
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I'd speculate that you just can't convert Investiture of one Shard to another. Nothing you do will make Stormlight into Breath, for example (though, again, speculation). I was calling this "conservation of Intent" for a while. I feel this adequately explains why you can't Soulcast something into lerasium or atium, since Soulcasting uses some combination of Honor/Cultivation, and those two metals are pure Investiture of another Shard.

 

Doing the opposite and converting things with Investiture into things without should be possible, if difficult in cases of Shardblades and the like (as you note, humans with innate Investiture can be converted).

 

I agree.  It might be possible.  There isn't a WoB or anything that directly says "people with enough investiture couldn't be souldcast."  I am admitting you could be right but maintaining my opinion that I don't think it'd work.  Again no WoB or canon reason behind this, more of my "hunch."

 

 

 

Depends. The WoB doesn't say outright that they'd probably win. WoB:

 

All he says is that they'd be "really hard to beat", but I take major issue with that idea.

 

A Feruchemist should have no problems demolishing any Mistborn as far as I'm concerned, since they can just tap a bunch of speed, strength, and weight. (Sazed, it should be noted, had issues with Marsh only because he was a) an awful Feruchemist who didn't have a powergaming bone in his body, unlike Vin, B) had just finished tapping years worth of stores to fight koloss, and c) Marsh was a Feruchemist too.) Atium doesn't enhance your physical capabilities, and you'd have to be pre-burning atium to even fight a Feruchemist.

 

My main disagreement here is that if a Mistborn is burning Atium they see the future and essentially become invincible.  True, Atium doesn't enhance your physical abilities, but other metals do.  Basically if a Mistborn had enough Atium they could dodge everything you could throw at them.  I believe the Atium shadows are a few seconds into the future.  This means no matter how fast you can move they saw it coming a couple seconds ago and responded to it.  I don't see how enhanced speed or strength benefits you here.  Feruchemists as far as I know also don't have the counter to Atium (which is Atium) to give themselves Atium shadows which nullifies the benefits.  They use Atium to store age, not see the future.

 

This being said it's been a while since I've read Mistborn so I could be missing something that's extremely obvious and makes me and my argument completely wrong.

 

 

You also probably can't dodge Soulcasting "lightning" like Jasnah throws. I think this qualifies under the umbrella of things that are "really hard" to do, so the WoB still works. Though I originally thought otherwise, I think a Mistborn could beat Szeth or Kaladin via atium and a duralumin pewter punch at their heads. It's just the Soulcasting people that will give them problems so far as we know on Roshar (though I retain the right to change my mind when we see how ridiculous other Surges are, like if Shallan really can make sun-lasers and disintegrate things at will like Teft implies is possible).

 

No ideas here really.  My guess (strong emphasis on guess) is that to beat a soulcaster using Atium would be possible.  The second you see their Atium shadow pause you just push a disk through their skull before they can convince your cognitive self to change.  Because you saw them pause in the future, even if soulcasting were instantaneous, you'd still have advanced warning they were about to try it and could stop them first.

 

 

OK I'd also still like to get back to my concern with the OP. Maybe a fully trained Knight would stand a chance against a Mistborn.  I'll concede all my points and assume I'm wrong about them all.  This still doesn't give Shallan much of a chance against Vin.

 

The OP's question was Vin vs. Shallan, not Mistborn v. Knights Radiant..  Even conceding all my points, even if there were WoB stating everything I said was wrong and a Soulcaster could totally destroy a Mistborn, even if Vin didn't have Atium. Shallan is a bad example of someone who might win a fight against Vin.  She isn't good at Soulcasting...she couldn't even make a stick change.  How is she going to convince a person?  She isn't trained in fighting.  She lucked out that Tyn didn't know she had a shardblade and wasn't ready to dodge when Shallan summoned it.  She doesn't have particularly good reflexes and isn't even that coordinated. Vin would just swoop in in her Mistborn cloak looking like some shadow come to life and push some disks through her head while Shallan is still blinking to take a memory to get a drawing of this strange display of nature.

Edited by Mimiddle04
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

My main disagreement here is that if a Mistborn is burning Atium they see the future and essentially become invincible.  True, Atium doesn't enhance your physical abilities, but other metals do.  Basically if a Mistborn had enough Atium they could dodge everything you could throw at them.  I believe the Atium shadows are a few seconds into the future.  This means no matter how fast you can move they saw it coming a couple seconds ago and responded to it.  I don't see how enhanced speed or strength benefits you here.

 

I know Steelheart isn't cosmere, but this is the same problem that they have with pre-cogs in steelheart.  You just have to figure out a way to checkmate them.  I'll admit, not an easy thing to do, but should be possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just some points in favor of Shallan...

  • If she does multiple Lightweavings, Bronze detection could become a bit messed up. This is especially true if she Invests Pattern to hold one Lightweaving while she herself does another one or two.
  • Jasnah reading

    As we saw with Jasnah, Stormlight makes it impossible to kill Shallan, except for possibly a blow to the head. I say possibly because Jasnah had to be careful with the amount of Stormlight she held so that she didn't glow.

  • Again, having a Shardblade that a) cannot be Pushed or Pulled and B) can change form near-instantly is a big advantage Vin will have to work hard to counter.

I'd have to hark back to Mr. Sanderson. Does Vin have atium?

 

I think the answer depends on a lot of variables: Does Shallan have her Shardblade out, or is she able it to summon it to surprise Vin as she did Tyn? Does Vin have atium? Are they indoors or outdoors? How much metal is around the area? How much reserves do each have? At what level of Vin's training are we taking this into account?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My main disagreement here is that if a Mistborn is burning Atium they see the future and essentially become invincible.  True, Atium doesn't enhance your physical abilities, but other metals do.  Basically if a Mistborn had enough Atium they could dodge everything you could throw at them.  I believe the Atium shadows are a few seconds into the future.  This means no matter how fast you can move they saw it coming a couple seconds ago and responded to it.  I don't see how enhanced speed or strength benefits you here.  Feruchemists as far as I know also don't have the counter to Atium (which is Atium) to give themselves Atium shadows which nullifies the benefits.  They use Atium to store age, not see the future.

 

This being said it's been a while since I've read Mistborn so I could be missing something that's extremely obvious and makes me and my argument completely wrong.

 

Because it's off-topic:

There's a limit to what you can do, even if you can see it coming. Say a Mistborn knows a nuclear bomb is going to explode within ten feet of him three seconds of now. What does he do?

 

... Well, he could try to duralumin Push himself far away, but he can't move fast enough. He could try to defuse the bomb, but there's no guarantee that's possible.

 

Feruchemists aren't quite that bad, but ultimately even if you know one's going to try hitting you, you are a weak fleshling with arms that can only move so fast despite being pewter powered. Feruchemy has no real upper bound on how fast you can go, except for how much it drains your metalminds. If you know a Feruchemist's going to be smashing your face in, what can you do? You can't fight one on one, because a Feruchemist is quicker and you'd never be able to hit him even if you know exactly how he's going to move. His mind is sped up so much that he can react to that like Vin did to Zane, except reliably because Feruchemy is so powerful.

 

Now, Mistborn have a huge advantage in that they're really good at flying up into the air and Feruchemists are less so, so a Mistborn burning atium could probably run away, and the Feruchemist always has the option of storing all his weight, tapping a ridiculous amount of strength and speed, and jumping up at the Mistborn like an arrow. Though, I'm not sure if speed would make you rise faster... it's entirely possible if the Mistborn is up in the air that the Feruchemist really can do nothing to them except run. But the only way for them to be up in air is if for some reason they knew they'd need to be burning atium the moment they saw the strange Terrisman, so the Feruchemist assassin is still sort of going to win because they can kill the Mistborn before he thinks of burning atium. Maybe.

 

In summary: hypotheticals are hard. I still can't name many things in the Cosmere that can stand up to a Feruchemist assassin surprising them.

 

As to Shallan: yeah, Shallan's awful at fighting, and I doubt all the Stormlight she can hold will save her from a duralumin punch to the face. This one's pretty one-sided, unless Shallan can copy Nalan's darkness trick and become "invisible", which depends on the environment not having much light.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So we know that sources of investiture such as atium cannot be soulcasted, or are incredibly difficult to soulcast.  Could Shallan soulcast Vin's other metals though?  If she were able to do that before Vin could close the distance, then it would be Shallan's lightweaving, soulcasting, and shardblade against Vin's atium.  She could also potentially do the same to Vin's weapons. 

 

That being said, we have also seen how dangerous Vin can be without metals, so even with Shallan's powers, Vin would be difficult to checkmate, especially because of Shallan's lack of combat experience. However, if Shallan were able to soulcast Vin's ingested metals, it would make the fight much more even. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with this entire question is that we are comparing Vin, at the end of her story, against Shallan at the beginning of hers.

  Other than Marsh (a shard controlled, hemalurgically altered creature) there was no one on Scadrial who could stand up against pre-ascension Vin. Also, we as readers know most of the different ways Vin could game the system to win.

   Shallan on the other hand is barely a Radiant. Not only that, but she is a non-combat radiant with no real world skills.  We simply do not know enough of what a Lightweaver is capable of. 

   Book 10 Shallan may very well be able to wipe the floor with Vin, but book 2 Shallan?  Her best bet is to hide and hope Vin gets caught in a high storm.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with this entire question is that we are comparing Vin, at the end of her story, against Shallan at the beginning of hers.

  Other than Marsh (a shard controlled, hemalurgically altered creature) there was no one on Scadrial who could stand up against pre-ascension Vin. Also, we as readers know most of the different ways Vin could game the system to win.

   Shallan on the other hand is barely a Radiant. Not only that, but she is a non-combat radiant with no real world skills.  We simply do not know enough of what a Lightweaver is capable of. 

   Book 10 Shallan may very well be able to wipe the floor with Vin, but book 2 Shallan?  Her best bet is to hide and hope Vin gets caught in a high storm.

Lol, yes! That's pretty much how it is. Shallan in book two is a wuss and Vin is a boss in all respects.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with this entire question is that we are comparing Vin, at the end of her story, against Shallan at the beginning of hers.

  Other than Marsh (a shard controlled, hemalurgically altered creature) there was no one on Scadrial who could stand up against pre-ascension Vin. Also, we as readers know most of the different ways Vin could game the system to win.

   Shallan on the other hand is barely a Radiant. Not only that, but she is a non-combat radiant with no real world skills.  We simply do not know enough of what a Lightweaver is capable of. 

   Book 10 Shallan may very well be able to wipe the floor with Vin, but book 2 Shallan?  Her best bet is to hide and hope Vin gets caught in a high storm.

 

That's not exactly how you should look at it either.  Shallan has known about her powers since she was a young child.  It's her own faults and shortcomings that kept her from training with them.  Even if we forget the fact that it was Shallan's own fault she repressed her abilities and we start from when she started training with Jasnah she is close to a year into learning.  Vin even at the end of the trilogy was what 2 years in?  I'd say it's fair to compare the two as long as they've been training with their abilities for close to the same amount of time.  

 

TL;DR- It's not the amount of books you should look at, because they don't necessarily span the same amount of time, but how long each has been using their abilities.

 

EDIT: Something else I just thought of too.  Marsh being the only one who could compete with Vin is kind of the point here.  Vin, or any full mistborn burning atium, is such a powerful character their best competition is an actual Shard Bearer.  Not some barely trained 18 year old with the ability to make pretty pictures.

Edited by Mimiddle04
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...