Kelsier's Psychopathy

[gjustice99]

Awhile ago I was reading a Q&A on theoryland and someone had asked Mr. Sanderson what his least favorite protagonist and favorite antagonist was and he mentioned that of all of his protagonists, Kelsier would scare him the most because he is, in the definition of the term, a psychopath. I recently watched a documentary that touched on the subject of psychopathy and I wanted to find out more. So I looked up some determining factors about psychopathy:

• they show no guilt
• they are very manipulative (with other people's emotions)
• they tend to be very controlled (in personality)
• they tend to plan out crimes before they commit them
• they have no empathy for other humans
• fearlessness

So, a lot of these characteristics match up with Kelsier's personality perfectly, but I have found a discrepancy. That would be when Kelsier took Vin to Kredik Shaw and she got badly injured, he seemed to blame himself and feel extremely guilty for nearly causing her death. Now, that wouldn't make any sense if Kelsier was a psychopath, because they feel no remorse for their actions and have no empathy, but Kelsier seems to have this trait, in certain situations. In other situations he kills nobles without feeling, and that fits the mold of a psychopath, but when he was guilty for being responsible for Vin getting injured doesn't fit. Now, there is something very similar to psychopathy called sociopathy, so I decided to look into that more to see if he fit the mold of a sociopath better than that of a psychopath. I found that he fit next to no traits of being a sociopath (the one he did fit was the ability to empathize with, and feel guilty for, the people who had close relationships with them). Sociopaths are erratic, and lack the methodology of psychopaths. I feel like Kelsier being an exception to that rule is the most likely possibility for this. I just wanted to bring this to light and share it with the rest of you.

[Observer]

Vin is, in her own little way, something outside of his hatred and his vendetta, and a solid reminder of Mare and what could have been. Watching Vin almost die was probably bringing up a lot of Mare memories, and unlike most crew-member deaths would, it actually hit him pretty hard. At least, that's how I see it.

[gjustice99]

Kelsier's feelings toward Mare (from what we know) don't fit the psychopath norm either. 

[Observer]

I think we're assuming is experiences in the Pits drove him over the edge. Before he was just a ruthless and hateful man, like basically every person in Luthadel. After the Pits, he took it a step further, but his past stayed as a bit of a soft spot for him.

[gjustice99]

I think we're assuming is experiences in the Pits drove him over the edge. Before he was just a ruthless and hateful man, like basically every person in Luthadel. After the Pits, he took it a step further, but his past stayed as a bit of a soft spot for him.

This is very likely, but he was basically a loaded gun before (it has been shown that psychopathy is genetic), and the Pits just pulled the metaphorical trigger.

[Oudeis]

I know some conditions exist on a "spectrum." Is it possible Kelsier was only 98% of a psychopath? Or do we know that psychopathy is a totally binary thing (you either fully are or fully aren't)?

[Observer]

Basically all mental, or even medical conditions are on a spectrum of sorts, though that's oversimplifying it. There really aren't a lot of mental disorders that are totally binary, if any.

[king of nowhere]

I was just  going to suggest that. kelsier has certainly elements of a psycho. however, it is difficult to gauge how much it is actual psychopathy, how much is adaptation to survive, and how much is necessary ruthlessness. he came from a very bad place, i guess most everyone in luthadel would have some mental disease by modern standard.

[Asperity]

Kelsier wanted to save the skaa (and whomever else) from the tyranny of the Lord Ruler, which shows empathy, which rules Kelsier out for being a sociopath.

[gjustice99]

I was just  going to suggest that. kelsier has certainly elements of a psycho. however, it is difficult to gauge how much it is actual psychopathy, how much is adaptation to survive, and how much is necessary ruthlessness. he came from a very bad place, i guess most everyone in luthadel would have some mental disease by modern standard.

Actually, I have a WoB here (#36) that says Kelsier is, indeed, a psychopath (which is the entire reason I posted this thread).

 

 

 

 

 

Kelsier wanted to save the skaa (and whomever else) from the tyranny of the Lord Ruler, which shows empathy, which rules Kelsier out for being a sociopath.

I never said he was a sociopath (actually, I said the opposite), I said he was a psychopath.

Edited November 23, 2014 by gjustice99

[WeiryWriter]

Here's the actual quote (and a better link--it's better to link the actual interview page, not a search result as the latter can change)
 

i_are_pant

Hey Brandon, love all of you work and so does everyone I give them to. Keep up the good work.
Which of your protagonist characters do you dislike the most as a person? Taking into account that you know all of their inner secrets and motivations.
On the flip side. Which of your antagonists do you connect with the most? The Lord Ruler seems an obvious choice as he was misunderstood by everybody for so long. But still, I'm curious.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a tough one, as while I'm writing, I HAVE to like everyone. However, the most disturbing of them is probably Kelsier. He's a psychopath—meaning the actual, technical term. Lack of empathy, egotism, lack of fear. If his life had gone differently, he could have been a very, very evil dude.
Elend. I see myself as an idealist like him.

 

(source)

[Asperity]

I never said he was a sociopath (actually, I said the opposite), I said he was a psychopath.

There isn't really a difference. Essentially, different terms for the same thing.

[Oudeis]

There isn't really a difference. Essentially, different terms for the same thing.

 

That is... not even slightly the case.

[king of nowhere]

There isn't really a difference. Essentially, different terms for the same thing.

not at all.

I do not know the technicalities, but while normal people use them as synonims, they actually refer to specifically distincct medical conditions. and they are very different.

[Asperity]

IIRC, the DSM-IV only referred to it as sociopathy. It may have changed in the DSM-V but I'd have to scan through to check. I'll do that later tonight if I remember. If not, I'll triple-check with my professor tomorrow.

 

In the meantime, feel free to list these "distinct medical conditions". First I've ever heard of that.

 

Regardless of whichever form he has, he would lack empathy since he has Antisocial Personality Disorder which is where -pathy stems from.

 

Super stealth edit: Actually yeah, the type of -pathy he has is redundant. He still has ASPD which removes his empathy. AFAIK, disorders in the Cosmere are still classified by real-world standards.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Kythis

[gjustice99]

they are in the same category but they are not the same thing. It is criminologists who classify them separately and they are different and you can see the difference here. One of the biggest differences is that psychopathy is genetic whereas sociopathy is the result of how someone is brought up.

[Asperity]

Criminologists can classify disorders however they want. Regardless, they would continue to be incorrect if they classify a disorder as something OTHER than what is listed in the current iteration of the DSM.

 

Also, that is nothing close to a verifiable source. :-(

[Observer]

Sociopath is an outdated term for one on the far end of ASPD spectrum. I believe that is the key different between the two, as psychopath is still an active term for a disorder separate from ASPD.

 

EDIT: Actually, you know what? This is a really pointless derailment. We can make a different OT threat for this, or a PM chain, but let's not get too distracted from main topic, alright?

Edited November 25, 2014 by Observer

[king of nowhere]

anyway, i don't see kelsier fitting the definition very much because he didn't lack empathy. not only he felt deeply for vin (i guess even a pshyco can have loved ones, although one of the descriptions said "hurt family and loved ones without remorse") but he also was visibly in turmoil when the rebel army was getting slaughtered. or in the prologue, when the skaa girl was kidnapped. and notice that, even before he knew anything about vin, he was mad at the way she was treated - and there were no noble involved in it. or the kindness he shows to the slave he rescued from the pits.

 

that's why i can't really see kelsier as the soulless manipulator that "pshyco" would imply, despite what brandon says. it is clear that he cares about people, even people that mean nothing to him. yes, he can unleash the fury and kill without remorse, but he's trying to overthrow a god, it's already a task hard enough without also having to avoid killing enemy soldiers.

All things considered, I would say that if he is a pshycopat, he is so at a light level, and he manages pretty well despite it.

[Observer]

Do we have any proper word on how he was feeling when those soldiers got killed? Can't check myself since I've loaned my copy of Mistborn to a friend, but charging an army with little regard for your own safety could still fit the profile, and I think I've already come up with an explanation for why he was able to care so much about Vin, but so much less about the crew.

[killersquirrel59]

I'm by no means an expert, but as I understood it, the lack of empathy part was in particular focused on direct human empathy. A psychopath can passionately believe in an abstract ideal or a cause and show sorrow and remorse when major blows are dealt to that cause. Where they fall apart is in direct personal human empathy toward another individual. 

 

His care for Vin definitely still breaks the mold, but his passion for the Skaa and remorse for the loss of the army don't really IMHO.

[Pathfinder]

Does being a psychopath require indiscriminate lack of empathy? Or can you value a certain group, but exhibit psychopathic traits towards another group? These are genuine questions I hope someone can answer for me. I feel from Brandon's words, when he stated lack of empathy, was in regarding to those Kelsier killed. That for Kelsier there was never a hesitation, or consideration of the life he just ended and certainly no remorse after the action. Kelsier validated this by stating it was because they aligned with the Lord Ruler. If that warrants the label of psychopathy, then wouldn't the goal of just about every military on the planet be to turn their soldiers into psychopaths when placed before the enemy? To not see the enemy as a person, but a threat to be eliminated. 

[Redbird]

Well a common practice during war was to dehumanize the enemy so the soldiers wouldn't hesitate in killing them. 

[Pathfinder]

Exactly what I meant, so would that be a form of psychopathy?

[Redbird]

I think that psychopathy is having no feeling to everyone but maybe a select few. Kelsier on the other hand only feels no remorse for a few people percentage wise, and they have committed horrible crimes, so he isn't unjustified. Although he later realizes that not all nobles are evil, in the case of Elend. So he can develop sympathy for those outside his core group, even one he thought to be an enemy at first.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Redbird3000