Dalinar42

I Have a Question

39 posts in this topic

Honor and Cultivation deteriorated into Honor Spren as well as Lie Spren. Wha...????

Does that mean that lies are an integral part of cultivation? In order to build something, you have to deceive someone?

Or, is lying an integral part of honor? Yin Yang, balance in all things. Without lies, there is no honor. Or is it both? To build something you have to have honor and to grow your honor, you must reject your lies?

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I think your initial premise is incorrect. Honor did not specifically become Honorspren, nor has Cultivation become Liespren. We know Honor shattered. We know that the Stormfather is one big part of what's left, and we know that many different types of spren are more prevalent because Honor shattered. However, we know that the bearer of Cultivation is still alive, so there's no actual reason at this point to think that Cultivation has shattered (although she may have).

 

((The WoB that Cultivation is still alive can be found if you google "Theoryland Cultivation". The last few times I've tried making a direct link I've apparently failed to do so properly, so I am hesitant to try again. If someone can suggest to me what I might be doing wrong, I will try to add the link)).

 

EDIT: With Moogle's help, hopefully this will now work. It is number 5 on this page.

Edited by Outis
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No, I get all of that. What I said was part of Honor and Cultivation is Lie Spren and Honor Spren. My premise isn't flawed. At least, not in the way you are saying it is.

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All Surgebinding spren are of both Honor and Cultivation by WoB (although it leaves open the possibility that some are 100% Honor or 100% Cultivation, it's implies most are mixtures):

BRANDON SANDERSON

So there has been dissension among them about who gets to call themselves honorspren, if that makes sense, and there is some disagreement among scholars about which ones are really, you know "This is what defines an honorspren".

But the spren you are running into are all (something) of either Honor or Cultivation, or some mixture between them. And you can usually tell the ones that are more Honor, and the ones that are more Cultivation. That should be able to be (something).

(source)

 

I'd say that "liespren" are most likely mostly Cultivation (since they like creativity and creating things), with a slight dash of Honor which gives them an aspect involved with the truth. (They like true lies.)

 

Note that Cryptics don't like the name liespren. I agree with them - liespren doesn't quite describe them, and is quite misleading.

 

And to further extend on Intents - Splinters seem to mostly be sub-Intents of the main one. Cultivation might be about growing things, but that's a very very broad idea. It might even include the idea of pruning things to allow other things to grow, which almost seems contradictory with the main intent, but would definitely fall under the idea of cultivation. (Also, by WoB, Cultivation is most compatible with Ruin. Also note that Ruin was capable of creating things if he could use them to later break things down. This might change your conception of what cultivation means in the context of this Shard.)

 

Add this idea of pruning via a dash of Cultivation to a mix of mostly Honor to deal with justice, and you might get Skybreakers, who want to deal justice.

 

((The WoB that Cultivation is still alive can be found if you google "Theoryland Cultivation". The last few times I've tried making a direct link I've apparently failed to do so properly, so I am hesitant to try again. If someone can suggest to me what I might be doing wrong, I will try to add the link)).

 

The issue is that you've used the search bar to find the interview, and then posted a link to the page the search shows up (which isn't quite correct - it would be like linking to your google search results rather than the article directly). When you find a WoB, you should hit the link that leads directly to the signing report, and then paste that link as the source. Honestly, there should be a better way to post WoBs. I'll maybe make up a greasemonkey script for it later.

Edited by Moogle
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That's all well and good, Moogle. You still didn't address the questions. Is lying an integral part of cultivation?

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You might have missed my point. Lies aren't an integral part of Cultivation, but the idea of creation and growing is. Lying, in some ways, is just creating something, which fits with how Shallan is very creative. The added bit of Honor may be what makes Cryptics focus more on truth/lies, rather than creation of things in general. (Though, they do focus on creation of things in general - again, by WoB, most Lightweavers tended to be sculptors or artisans of some sort.)

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((The WoB that Cultivation is still alive can be found if you google "Theoryland Cultivation". The last few times I've tried making a direct link I've apparently failed to do so properly, so I am hesitant to try again. If someone can suggest to me what I might be doing wrong, I will try to add the link)).

 

Linking Things in Theoryland: A Step-By-Step Guide:

 

1. Run a search.

-If you used Google, you might either be directed to a search-results page or to a specific interview. If you find yourself linked directly to an interview, skip this and the next step.

 

2. Click on the hyperlink right under "INTERVIEW: <month>, <year>" of the question/answer you would like to link to.

-This will take you to the page for the specific interview that contains that question. At this point you'll have a "live" link that will always point to, at the very least, the interview that contains the WoB you wanted to link to.

 

3. Find the question that drew your interest (CTRL+F tends to be helpful).

 

4. Note the number in the black box to the left of the question (1, 2, 3...).

 

5. In the address bar, append "#<number>" to the URL.

-The ultimate format, then, shoudl be:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=<id of interview>#<number of question>

6. Copy the altered URL and paste it where you wanted to cite it. You have now linked to a specific interview in Theoryland.

 

So the ultimate URL of the WoB Outis was referring to is:

 

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=985#5
Edited by Kurkistan
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Jasnah and Shallan comment that they believe, per Namar's theory, that all spren are either of natural forces (fire, rain, gravity) or emotions (glory, fear, passion). Is a lie a natural force, or an emotion?

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Jasnah and Shallan comment that they believe, per Namar's theory, that all spren are either of natural forces (fire, rain, gravity) or emotions (glory, fear, passion). Is a lie a natural force, or an emotion?

 

A good question! Spren classification is hard. Honorspren, too, don't seem to fit into those neat categories.

 

Note too that Jasnah claims Honor is responsible for the emotionspren, and Cultivation for the forcespren. This seems to imply that the mix of Honor and Cultivation lets you break from those categories, making liespren/honorspren/highspren all not fit in them. "Abstractspren"?

 

(Reminds me of an old theory where I noted that painspren don't seem to fit into the categories either, and suggested Odium offered a third category: that of sensationspren. Other possible sensationspren: exhaustionspren, hungerspren. Could be those fit in under 'emotions', though. It's actually backed up by the Ars Arcanum: link. Rereading it, it could maybe use a few updates, particularly on the nature of voidspren. I also apparently completely missed the part where fabrials work with captured spren, so if fabrials can enhance sensations, forces, and emotions, that should mean there are three types of spren. Or that sensations count under the 'emotions' banner. Which seems unlikely.)

Edited by Moogle
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Abstractspren is a good nomenclature. Glory spren will also come under it. These spren seem to be cognitive manifestations of human abstract concepts like honor, justice, truth/lies, appreciation etc.

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No, Gloryspren are very specifically explained as showing up whenever you feel that you've accomplished something.

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Abstractspren is a good nomenclature. Glory spren will also come under it. These spren seem to be cognitive manifestations of human abstract concepts like honor, justice, truth/lies, appreciation etc.

 

Technically cognitive instantiations of human abstract concepts, I'd say. ;)

 

EDIT: Eh, fine, be all non-precise and use the wrong term Brandon. :P

Edited by Kurkistan
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Cognitive instantiations. Hmm.. Looks like my poor understanding of Realmatic theory is showing. This only means you guys will be getting noob questions from me.. :)

Oh Outis,thanks for correcting me.

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Cognitive instantiations. Hmm.. Looks like my poor understanding of Realmatic theory is showing. This only means you guys will be getting noob questions from me.. :)

 

Well I suppose it's theoretically possible that Brandon's own term for it (i.e. manifestations) is more accurate... :P

 

EDIT: To be clear, "instantiation" is not how Brandon himself put it. He said "manifestation".

Edited by Kurkistan
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A good question! Spren classification is hard. Honorspren, too, don't seem to fit into those neat categories.

 

I think those categories hold true for non-surgebinding spren. Surgebinding spren however seem to fall more in the "ideal spren" category to me rather than emotion 

 

As for Cryptics being "Lie Spren", as Moogle noted, most of what Pattern calls lies aren't deception per se, but usually are things that humans use descriptively as vehiclces for truth, but themselves are not true. Metaphors, similies, hyperbole, figures of speech, etc. 

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Yes, it's struck me for a while that the "Truth" cryptics are attracted to is the concept of perceptual truth; like Jasnah says, if a beggar girl convinces a crew that she is the sister of the most powerful King in the world, they will render her the aid they feel she is due. There's scientific truth, which is true regardless of what people believe, but most of human society is "truth" that is simply commonly accepted, or even sometimes individually and specifically accepted.

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What about dunk spren? That would be a sensation wouldn't it?

 

Being drunk would count as a sensation, I think. Assuming sensationspren are a different category, which remains to be shown.

 

While I'm on the topic, (even though it's sort of off-topic), I thought up some sensationspren ideas:

  • Exhaustionspren
  • Painspren
  • Intoxicationspren
  • Hungerspren
  • Thirstspren
  • Goodtastespren
  • Badtastespren
  • Pleasurespren (from being high on drugs, or something like that)
  • Chokingspren
  • Disgustspren (could be an emotionspren...)

Looking them over, they don't seem like emotionspren. It definitely seems like they could form a valid category on their own.

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Agreed. I also agree that Bondspren don't fit into the category. So, four groupings?

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You just made all those up, yes, Moogle? So, the fact that they don't fit into a category might be an artifact of the fact that they do not exist? Or was there a "goodtastespren" (deliciousspren?) in the book that I missed?

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There are "passionspren", for what it's worth.

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You just made all those up, yes, Moogle? So, the fact that they don't fit into a category might be an artifact of the fact that they do not exist? Or was there a "goodtastespren" (deliciousspren?) in the book that I missed?

 

Exhaustionspren, painspren, and intoxicationspren are all in the book (though intoxicationspren may or may not be a thing, since Axies was drunk when he reported seeing them). Would you call them emotionspren?

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One could argue with a bit of a stretch, that such things like exhaustion and pain are a natural part of live and as such might count as forcespren but Bondspren definetly don´t fall under the two catrgories both honor and the law (which the Highspren seem to represent) are concepts that don´t actually exsist without inteligent life to uphold them.

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When all of you are discussing "Bondspren" do you mean the Nahel spren or bindspren (the ones that show up when Kaldin Full Lashes something)?  Because the latter should definitely be considered as natural forces-type spren.  They are attracted to the use of the Adhesion Surge, which is considered by the Rosharans to be one of the fundamental forces.

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