Hoid's Immortality is Actually Due to Resurrection

[Titan Arum]

As I'm re-reading WoK, I noticed a very interesting and, from what I can tell, truthful dialogue between Hoid and Dalinar in Chapter 54, Gibletish:

 

 

Dalinar: "Wait, you're leaving?"

Hoid: "I must. I hope to return. I'll do so if I'm not killed. Probably will anyway." 

 

I know that people have talked about Hoid's immortality before, but it seems, from this quote, that Hoid CAN die, but doesn't stay dead. He seems to be able to resurrect because he says even if he dies he'll return anyway. And, how he words this, it almost seems his resurrection would not be by choice, as if he'd reluctantly be returned from the dead. 

 

What do you all think? Can Hoid actually die and be resurrected? Are there any forms of resurrection in the Cosmere besides being Returned? He can't be Returned every time he dies or he'd probably lose his memories, etc. (And don't forget that he predates Endowment.)

 

Maybe his resurrection abilities have something to do with Yolen, or maybe occurred because he was present when Adonalsium Shattered? It seems to me that he may not have acquired his Resurrection capabilities from other forms of known Investiture. Obviously this paragraph is pure speculation. 

 

On a side note, this reminds me of Dan Simmon's Hyperion. Hoid cannot accomplish the TRUE DEATH because he has a cruciform. Every time he dies, he resurrects, somewhat reluctantly. Maybe Hoid Worldhopped to Hyperion, in a galaxy far, far away, a long time ago, before the Shattering and accidentally acquired a cruciform?! It would be fitting since the cruciform is in the shape of a cross, and religion is very, very important in the Cosmere.

 

 

[Left]

The answer is obviously his Yolish lightweaving

Very good question. I'd never thought of Hoid going through multiple resurrections, very interesting.... One problem is that I don't think there are many ways of killing Hoid in the first place. He's too smart, been around too long, and has too many powers for the average (or only) Joe to take him down.

[king of nowhere]

I think you are reading too much in that sentence. especially a sentence coming from hoid, I wouldn't read it literally. I would see it more as "even if they behead me and feed my body to the greatshells,  I'll be back anyway".

[A Joe in the Bush]

He's too smart, been around too long, and has too many powers for the average (or Only) Joe to take him down.

 

Anyway. I think you're on too something. It could be possibly that Hoid has a Splinter of Endowment, or even of Adonalsium. Or, maybe he figured out how to store spiritual entities in fabrials, as well as cognitive ones.

 

What if he's made a Regrowth fabrial that's attuned to his mind and soul, and whenever they leave his body, it pulls them in, and regrows his body. It could also have a Goldmind attached for increased healing.

[Titan Arum]

I think you are reading too much in that sentence. especially a sentence coming from hoid, I wouldn't read it literally. I would see it more as "even if they behead me and feed my body to the greatshells,  I'll be back anyway".

I have to disagree with you because we know that the only way to kill Miles is by beheading, even with his compounding of gold. Anyways, let's pretend he were beheaded and fed to the greatshells and "survives" the beheading (similar to how TLR survived beheading)...I have to believe that separation of head from body is death, albeit possibly for just a nanosecond. For a really powerful gold compounder, the amount of chemical/electrical activity still running through the body immediately after the beheading may be enough time to heal this rather unfortunate ailment (similar to how a chicken with it's head cut off can still run about, but it's still technically dead). Thus technically, the person may die for a very small amount of time and then is resurrected. 

 

Additionally, I think we can trust Hoid in this instance because a few paragraphs later, Dalinar muses the following:

 

 

Wit was rarely wrong--though he was almost always odd. Was he really leaving, or would he still be in camp the next morning, laughing at the prank he had played on Dalinar?

 

No, Dalinar though. That wasn't a prank.

 

This internal dialogue coupled with how frank Wit was with Dalinar, including mentioning his Cosmere name "Hoid", saying "Adonalsium", and mentioning that Sadeas was up to something (and he was!,but Hoid wasn't sure what), leads me to believe that all aspects of this conversation were truthful, even if Hoid is still hiding things. We also know that in general, Wit/Hoid seems to respect Dalinar and never makes fun of him. Thus, I don't think I'm reading too much into this. 

[Twenty@20]

@Titan. You might be onto something. Hoid is certainly mysterious with his powers. Remember how he told Jasnah shardblade couldn't harm him.

Most likely Brandon is putting Easter eggs for the future. When many years down the line we get to Hoid's story, we will look back to the Way of Kings and have our minds properly blown away in amazement.

[Incheoul]

Hoid strikes me as the type of person to hide truths in otherwise easily dismissible comments.

[king of nowhere]

I have to disagree with you because we know that the only way to kill Miles is by beheading, even with his compounding of gold.

I'm sure there are several words of brandon confirming that hoid can survive full decapitation. hoid has more  than just compounded gold.

[Mailliw73]

I think that it's due to the many magic abilities Hoid has picked up across the years and planets. We know he has feruchemy, he has a bead of lerasium, and probably other types. I would imagine that the combined healing factors of his abilities allow him to heal eve from things that technically kill him. For example, Titan, if you classify being beheaded and then being healed by gold as "resurrection" then I agree. I wouldn't call it resurrection per se though. The Returned are the only true resurrected beings we've seen in my opinion. I would count gold compounding just as really quick healing, even if the body technically died for a second in the middle.

[Titan Arum]

I would count gold compounding just as really quick healing

I agree with you Mailliw73. Gold compounding is primarily meant as really quick healing. I only used beheading as an example because of what king of nowhere said (and their point is valid too). In reality, if your heart stops, you're technically dead too, but can be revived by CPR or using a defibrillator. But I'd argue this is more of a revival, whereas recovering from a beheading (even if your "death" is very short) would count more as a resurrection. In a sense, it's more miraculous. When I think of resurrection, I think of a miracle.

 

You may be correct, also, that his abilities may be from a combination of all of his Investiture; however until we get this information, that conversation with Dalinar makes me think he has resurrection capabilities. So far, only the Returned have resurrection abilities, but I don't think Hoid is Returned, so the source of his theorized resurrection (by me) is still a mystery. 

[king of nowhere]

Actually, there is quite a debate about what "being dead" means. your heart can stop, but your brain can stilll be working. does it count? your brain stops working, but then start working again. did you die and got resurrected,, or you were never dead in the first placce? The bigger problem on that is that we don't even really know for sure what it means to be "alive". Ok, we can all see any living thing, but if we try to go down, to see what makes them "alive", we fail. Science don't have a definition of life, as every attempt to give one proved flawed. I remember reading some really insightful posts about it a few weeks ago, but I want to go to sleep so I won't try to search.

 

Anyway, that ambiguity on what means to be alive and what means to be dead allows hoid's remark to be interpreted in a very broad sense. It can mean that he has a way to come back to life after being killed. it can mean that he will take ridiculous amount of punishment, be left for dead, then he'll got up a bit later feeling well. where is, exactly, the difference?

 

That's why I don't see that sentence as important. we already know hoid is virtually impossible to kill. whether we call it super-regeneration-from-almost-death, or resurrection, at the levels needed to inconvenience hoid the difference is merely of semantics.

[Titan Arum]

Actually, there is quite a debate about what "being dead" means. your heart can stop, but your brain can stilll be working. does it count? your brain stops working, but then start working again. did you die and got resurrected,, or you were never dead in the first placce? The bigger problem on that is that we don't even really know for sure what it means to be "alive". Ok, we can all see any living thing, but if we try to go down, to see what makes them "alive", we fail. Science don't have a definition of life, as every attempt to give one proved flawed. I remember reading some really insightful posts about it a few weeks ago, but I want to go to sleep so I won't try to search.

 

Anyway, that ambiguity on what means to be alive and what means to be dead allows hoid's remark to be interpreted in a very broad sense. It can mean that he has a way to come back to life after being killed. it can mean that he will take ridiculous amount of punishment, be left for dead, then he'll got up a bit later feeling well. where is, exactly, the difference?

 

That's why I don't see that sentence as important. we already know hoid is virtually impossible to kill. whether we call it super-regeneration-from-almost-death, or resurrection, at the levels needed to inconvenience hoid the difference is merely of semantics.

Hi King of Nowhere. I think your argument is extremely insightful, and I tend to agree with you that at this point it's semantics. I almost said that in my first response to you but decided to press my point instead, which probably wasn't helpful. 

 

Hoid is virtually indestructible, and as a result I think it's still valid to ask how? Whether it's resurrection, revival, extreme healing powers...how (and why) is (are) still the final question(s). It's probably safest, at this point in the amount of Cosmere literature and WoB that we have, to assume that it's from all of the various magics he's gathered, but I still like to speculate and I do still think that conversation with Dalinar could hint towards an ability to resurrect. 

[Twenty@20]

.

.

Anyway, that ambiguity on what means to be alive and what means to be dead allows hoid's remark to be interpreted in a very broad sense. It can mean that he has a way to come back to life after being killed. it can mean that he will take ridiculous amount of punishment, be left for dead, then he'll got up a bit later feeling well. where is, exactly, the difference?

That's why I don't see that sentence as important. we already know hoid is virtually impossible to kill. whether we call it super-regeneration-from-almost-death, or resurrection, at the levels needed to inconvenience hoid the difference is merely of semantics.

I kind of agree with you that "death" in the cosmere is being redefined by all these super-healing abilities. Our earthside concepts of mortal death certainly won't work when people can recover from beheadings.

However we can still try to differentiate actual resurrection from just miraculous healing. I think the benchmark of ressurection in Brandon's work is a certain character from Steelheart (

Megan

). The character actually resurrects in a new body after the old one is destroyed. That I think is an entirely different power from plain old super healing. So if Hoid has the power of resurrection, that is a pretty awesome thing in its own right.

Edit: I thought I should explain in cosmere terms. I believe resurrection in Cosmere means the following. Even if the Physical body is destroyed, burned or eaten by a chasmfiend, the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects will remain intact and a new physical body can be rebuilt. This is different from healing the original body.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Stormwalker]

Are there any forms of resurrection in the Cosmere besides being Returned?

 

There is another form of resurrection in the Cosmere that we know of: the heralds always come back to life after dying. They also happen to reappear on Roshar at the time of a desolation (which just so happens to start later that book, judging by maybe-taln).

 

IIRC, we know by WoB that Hoid is not a herald, although I suppose he could have still joined the oathpact at some point (he can't have been originally in it by WoB). I don't think this is likely to be the case, but I guess it is a possibility.

[Khyrindor]

   

Does "Alethi" come from or have anything to do with the Greek word for truth or is that just a coincidence?

Less serious: does Hoid have all of his fingers?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Alethi is a coincidence. However, it is the sort of coincidence that happens a lot for me in languages, as I often look for a "feel" for a language. Alethi, for example, is a semitic language mashup with some Mediterranean influence. So I'm not surprised if it means something in the right languages. (I did this with Straff and Elend from Mistborn, looking for Germanic-sounding words and accidentally using two words from German.)

Hoid has had fingers chopped off on occasion. I doubt he's kept them around after the new ones grow in.

 

Hoid can regrow himself instantly.

 

 

PINPOINT

If Hoid got beheaded, would his body grow a new head?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

PINPOINT

What if Hoid got cut by a shardblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Khyrindor

[king of nowhere]

personally, in-cosmere, I would adopt as a definition of death "the soul has left the body and is disjoined from the physical realm", so if the soul then goes back to the body or in a new body, I call that resurrection. however, in most cases we wouldn't know what happens with the soul, so it won't help much with the practice.

[Sandastron]

As I'm re-reading WoK, I noticed a very interesting and, from what I can tell, truthful dialogue between Hoid and Dalinar in Chapter 54, Gibletish:

 

 

I know that people have talked about Hoid's immortality before, but it seems, from this quote, that Hoid CAN die, but doesn't stay dead. He seems to be able to resurrect because he says even if he dies he'll return anyway. And, how he words this, it almost seems his resurrection would not be by choice, as if he'd reluctantly be returned from the dead. 

Another possibility is that Hoid is saying he will come back as a ghost if he dies, like what Kelsier is doing on Scandrial.

[Titan Arum]

personally, in-cosmere, I would adopt as a definition of death "the soul has left the body and is disjoined from the physical realm", so if the soul then goes back to the body or in a new body, I call that resurrection. however, in most cases we wouldn't know what happens with the soul, so it won't help much with the practice.

Howdy, again king of nowhere! I like your definition of death in the Cosmere, because it makes sense given what we know. However, I have a question for you regarding this definition (and this may be due to my ignorance as a n00b with the Cosmere):

 

When a person visits Shadesmar, what part of them travels there? Is it their entire physical form along with their soul, is it just their soul (or a part of it), or is it just their mind/cognitive self? I ask, because when Jasnah Soulcasts, her body always remains present in the physical realm, but some part of her most likely needs to visit Shadesmar to actually conduct the Soulcasting.

 

My assumption is that her cognitive self is all that needs to visit Shadesmar (it is the Cognitive realm, after all!), but a part of her mind must remain behind in the physical realm, otherwise during her time there she'd probably be equal to someone who is brain dead (unless the time spent in Shadesmar has a net-neutral effect on time in the physical realm). Thus, if it's not her full mind's presence in Shadesmar, is it her full soul instead? And if it's her full soul, then by your definition, would she be temporarily dead because her body remains in the physical realm? 

 

Thanks!

[king of nowhere]

yeah, that's why i'm saying it is not a practical system: we don't know enough to apply it to most situations.

 

EDIT: also, if there are powers that allow one's soul to leave the body temporarily and then come back, my whole definition get messed up and cannot be fixed. one attempt would be to define it as "the soul trapped in the afterlife",  but then, if it resurrected, it means that it never was really trapped after all. or it could be "the soul leaves the body and cannot come back except by magical means", bit then, the means used to leave the body were pretty magical by themselves. or "the soul cannot come back to the body except by a magic system different from the one it used to leave", but I'm pretty sure there is some power combo that would screw up that definition too. or "the soul cannot leave except by the help of someone else", but then hoid could die, stay dead for centuries, then come back with some trick of magic, and he would have been not dead all along. although maybe that's the better definition i came up with so far; if someone, after his body has been utterly destroied and his soul is already in the afterlife, can still come back as he wills, then he is not a person, he is a different kind of entity, and not tied to the body like regular humans are. maybe.

 

In the end, when it comes to people with as much investiture power like hoid, the concept of "alive" and "dead" aren't appropriate any more. it's like trying to stick to "time" and "space" when discussing relativistic physics. So, just like the physics  had to develop a new set of concepts to deal with time and mass depending on the observer, so we would need to develop new concepts to discuss hoid's mortality appropriately.

Edited November 13, 2014 by king of nowhere

[Stormlightning]

PINPOINT

If Hoid got beheaded, would his body grow a new head?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes.

PINPOINT

What if Hoid got cut by a shardblade?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The Shardblade cuts the soul and what Hoid does heals the soul.

 

 

I might be getting slightly off topic here, but I wanted to mention this again, as I don't think I've ever seen the second part before. It probably isn't a coincidence that the dude with this power is seeking to put together a totally dismembered Adonalsium (well...probably, especially with this quote). Hoid is the only person we know of who has a power that could actually be used to make Adonalsuim whole.

 

My brain is attempting to theorize on this, but...nothing. I wonder where his power to heal a soul comes from. I don't think we have any good WoB/book references for that :'(

I have also often wondered about that power of his to appear wherever important things happen (like being 'called' to where Jasnah would be).

 

It vaguely reminds me of Szeth's whole deal with the Shin. Who knows if Hoid's really doing what he wants to, or if he just can't help it because his powers push him that way.

[Shaggai]

Yet another piece of evidence that Hoid is the Doctor.

[Suspense]

Hi, this is my first post here.  Hope I'm not making an chull of myself...

 

 

My brain is attempting to theorize on this, but...nothing. I wonder where his power to heal a soul comes from. I don't think we have any good WoB/book references for that :'(

 

Words of Radiance(?)

What about Kaladin healing his shard-cut arm?

[Redbird]

That's repairing to the cognitive identity, like Feruchemical gold, so maybe.

[Titan Arum]

Hi, this is my first post here.  Hope I'm not making an chull of myself...

 

 

Words of Radiance(?)

What about Kaladin healing his shard-cut arm?

Hello Suspense! You pose a good/smart question and I thought along the same line. This, to me, allows more speculation about the Yolen version of Lightweaving. Maybe it has a similar ability to what Kaladin did? Or maybe through all of the various forms of investiture that Hoid has, he has gained the same ability. I also wonder if maybe Kaladin is unique in his ability to repair a Shard wound. Do we know if other Knight's Radiant have this ability?

 

Also, as a tip, in the Cosmere theory forum, there's no need for the spoiler tag. That's mostly useful for areas outside of this main Cosmere forum. For example, you'd use the spoiler thread like you did if this conversation was in the General Brandon forum, or if it were posted in a forum not referencing the Stormlight Archive (such as Warbreaker or Mistborn). 

 

Cheers!

[Suspense]

 

Also, as a tip, in the Cosmere theory forum, there's no need for the spoiler tag.

 

Cool, thanks.

 

Regarding Kaladin's healing, it seems to me Brandon doesn't do special cases.  If Kaladin has some unique ability, there will be a reason he's special.  We don't have a reason yet that I can think of.  My feeling is, we know as little about the Radiants as the characters in-world.  We're learning right along with them.

 

To reference the earlier quote, Brandon said that shardblades cut the soul.  Kaladin healed such a cut.  Therefore, Rosharans have a way to heal the soul.  To me it seems pretty clear cut (heh.)