Is putting Adolnasium back together a nightmare or perfection?

[~sylphrena~ Bridgeman]

After re-reading the letter (presumably written by Hoid) and it's mysterious response, the part about Rayse stood out as being particularly important. In the Words of Radiance response, it says "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend." From this passage, it seems that Adolnasium is "God" himself, and the problems throughout the cosmere are the result of "God's" attributes being isolated from the perfect whole. So... is Hoid trying to put "God" back together? Why would this be a bad thing (in light of some people saying Hoid is evil) and what could be the problems or implications of doing so? Also, did Hoid and his strange friend shatter "God" in the first place ("he is what we made him to be")?

 

Does this make sense? Also, what does it say about "God" - and the general worldview of Sanderson's books - that God is/could be broken and needs our help to be put back together?

[Dalinar42 Ferring]

God is still whole. His attributes where copied and scattered. Rayse holds the wrath of God, Odium, with non of the context. I don't know if Hoid is trying to put it together or destroy Odium for the greater good. The Almighty said to destroy Odium, so that should be an indication.

I believe Hoid is good. I think he has one of the attributes of God, the one that gives him knowledge of parables without giving him any context, like Odium. My bet is that he goes around doing what the attribute wants him to do.

[Shaggai Seer]

Hoid is interfering, far beyond any of the other members of the Seventeenth Shard. His interference has been generally good, so far as we can tell, but it's still extremely dangerous. 

 

Re: Jabberwocky: Adonalsium is not whole. Adonalsium was Shattered. The Almighty is one of the resulting Shards. Specifically, the Shard of Honor.

[Dalinar42 Ferring]

Re: Shaggai. I didn't say Adonalsium was God. That's an assumption that everyone makes but I don't think it's right. I also don't think Hoid is part of the 17th Shard. He might have founded them or even controls them now, but I don't think that's right either. Also, the man who swore non intervention was not part of the 17th Shard either. Go reread the Letter again.

[Shaggai Seer]

Re: Shaggai. I didn't say Adonalsium was God. That's an assumption that everyone makes but I don't think it's right. I also don't think Hoid is part of the 17th Shard. He might have founded them or even controls them now, but I don't think that's right either. Also, the man who swore non intervention was not part of the 17th Shard either. Go reread the Letter again.

In this context, the word "God" clearly refers to Adonalsium. Specifically, the "divine hatred of God". The Seventeenth Shard is the only confirmed worldhopping organization which we know of, so it's clearly relevant.

 

Edit: Downvotes? Why downvotes?

Edited November 3, 2014 by Shaggai

[Dalinar42 Ferring]

I know that in this context God is synonymous with Adonalsium, but I don't think it should be. I think Adonalsium was a copy of the attributes of God that was broken and scattered. I don't think it was a copy of God, just a copy of his attributes.

Also, read the Letter again. Hoid isn't part of the 17th Shard and neither is the guy he wrote to.

I can repeat all this again, but it would save time if you would read things all the way through.

[Shaggai Seer]

I know that in this context God is synonymous with Adonalsium, but I don't think it should be. I think Adonalsium was a copy of the attributes of God that was broken and scattered. I don't think it was a copy of God, just a copy of his attributes.

Adonalsium created the Shardworlds. If a copy of God's attributes could create planets and life, then we should really start reconsidering whether or not it would be considered God in and of itself. Especially when there's no textual evidence that Adonalsium was a copy of anything whatsoever.

 

Also, read the Letter again. Hoid isn't part of the 17th Shard and neither is the guy he wrote to.

I can repeat all this again, but it would save time if you would read things all the way through.

I did read the Letter all the way through. I find it odd that you would assume I didn't, since I have a theory about the Seventeenth Shard in my sig, and the only textual reference to the Shard is in the Letter. The dragon is almost certainly at least affiliated with the Seventeenth Shard, and the Seventeenth Shard is looking for Hoid. Furthermore, the Seventeenth Shard is the primary worldhopping organization as far as we can tell, and Hoid is and/or was affiliated with it at some point, so it's entirely relevant.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Shaggai

[[email protected] Misting]

After re-reading the letter (presumably written by Hoid) and it's mysterious response, the part about Rayse stood out as being particularly important. In the Words of Radiance response, it says "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend." From this passage, it seems that Adolnasium is "God" himself, and the problems throughout the cosmere are the result of "God's" attributes being isolated from the perfect whole. So... is Hoid trying to put "God" back together? Why would this be a bad thing (in light of some people saying Hoid is evil) and what could be the problems or implications of doing so? Also, did Hoid and his strange friend shatter "God" in the first place ("he is what we made him to be")?

 

Does this make sense? Also, what does it say about "God" - and the general worldview of Sanderson's books - that God is/could be broken and needs our help to be put back together?

Hoid's motives are vague at best. Knowing that Adonalsium is shattered and seeing Hoid and other worldhoppers, its a natural conclusion to wonder, if they are trying to put Adonalsium together. However that is easier said than done. We have 3 shards splintered which have to be put together again and also convince the other shareholders to give up their shards. Well, frankly that does not seem possible at all at the moment. Hoid and his reptile friend both want to contain Odium right now but their methods are totally different.

Brandon's treatment of the broken God idea is wonderful. Remember the shattering of Adonalsium led to human settlements in several worlds. Scadrial people were created by Preservation and Ruin. So perhaps its good that Adonalsium got shattered.

[~sylphrena~ Bridgeman]

Brandon's treatment of the broken God idea is wonderful. Remember the shattering of Adonalsium led to human settlements in several worlds. Scadrial people were created by Preservation and Ruin. So perhaps its good that Adonalsium got shattered.

 

Hmm... so what if Adolnasium intentionally shattered itself to give life/magic to the other worlds? Or if something happened that forced it to shatter itself in order to save the worlds it created? I could understand it's power being greater spread across the worlds than condensed in one huge "thing" - that's actually a really cool idea. But in that case, what to do about Odium?

 

I know that in this context God is synonymous with Adonalsium, but I don't think it should be. I think Adonalsium was a copy of the attributes of God that was broken and scattered. I don't think it was a copy of God, just a copy of his attributes.

 

God is still whole. His attributes where copied and scattered. Rayse holds the wrath of God, Odium, with non of the context. I don't know if Hoid is trying to put it together or destroy Odium for the greater good. The Almighty said to destroy Odium, so that should be an indication.

I believe Hoid is good. I think he has one of the attributes of God, the one that gives him knowledge of parables without giving him any context, like Odium. My bet is that he goes around doing what the attribute wants him to do.

 

So in that case, is the real God separate from Adolnasium (and Adolnasium's just an imprint of his characteristics?) In that case, who is God? It would be cool if Brandon led us along, thinking Adolnasium is God, and then revealed that it's just a copy of him. Out of curiosity, from where in the book do you get the specific ideas that God is whole and that the Almighty said to destroy Odium?

 

Oooh... I love the idea of Hoid knowing the future in parables. It seems to fit his personality.

 

Thanks for the ideas! It seems Adolnasium has more possibilities than I realized...

[Shaggai Seer]

Hmm... so what if Adolnasium intentionally shattered itself to give life/magic to the other worlds? Or if something happened that forced it to shatter itself in order to save the worlds it created? I could understand it's power being greater spread across the worlds than condensed in one huge "thing" - that's actually a really cool idea. But in that case, what to do about Odium?

 

 

 

So in that case, is the real God separate from Adolnasium (and Adolnasium's just an imprint of his characteristics?) In that case, who is God? It would be cool if Brandon led us along, thinking Adolnasium is God, and then revealed that it's just a copy of him. Out of curiosity, from where in the book do you get the specific ideas that God is whole and that the Almighty said to destroy Odium?

 

Oooh... I love the idea of Hoid knowing the future in parables. It seems to fit his personality.

 

Thanks for the ideas! It seems Adolnasium has more possibilities than I realized...

Well, there is a God Beyond apparently, or at least some people worship a God Beyond, but that doesn't appear to be related to Adonalsium in any way.

[~sylphrena~ Bridgeman]

Well, there is a God Beyond apparently, or at least some people worship a God Beyond, but that doesn't appear to be related to Adonalsium in any way.

 

Really, wow! I thought I remembered hearing something like that, but I couldn't remember where. Is it in the question-answer archives somewhere? Could you point me to the right place? (If it's in-cosmere, it could give us a further hint on exactly what Adolnasium is! Did Brandon himself say it, or one of the characters?)

[Shaggai Seer]

Really, wow! I thought I remembered hearing something like that, but I couldn't remember where. Is it in the question-answer archives somewhere? Could you point me to the right place? (If it's in-cosmere, it could give us a further hint on exactly what Adolnasium is! Did Brandon himself say it, or one of the characters?)

I believe it's mentioned in Shadows for Silence, and Hoid may have mentioned it at some point. There's really no other information around it, though.

[Dalinar42 Ferring]

Hmm... so what if Adolnasium intentionally shattered itself to give life/magic to the other worlds? Or if something happened that forced it to shatter itself in order to save the worlds it created? I could understand it's power being greater spread across the worlds than condensed in one huge "thing" - that's actually a really cool idea. But in that case, what to do about Odium?

 

 

 

So in that case, is the real God separate from Adolnasium (and Adolnasium's just an imprint of his characteristics?) In that case, who is God? It would be cool if Brandon led us along, thinking Adolnasium is God, and then revealed that it's just a copy of him. Out of curiosity, from where in the book do you get the specific ideas that God is whole and that the Almighty said to destroy Odium?

 

Oooh... I love the idea of Hoid knowing the future in parables. It seems to fit his personality.

 

Thanks for the ideas! It seems Adolnasium has more possibilities than I realized...

Dalinar was told by the Almighty to vex Odium, cconvince him that he could loose, and coax him into a fight. That way they would have a chance of destroying him. That's what I think was said.

God is just God. I think do think that it's just a copy of his attributes.

[Moogle Voidbringer]

Shai says a prayer to the Unknown God at one point, though given that Raoden hears a voice in the Shardpool, it may just be that this god is a particularly large Splinter of Devotion, or something along those lines.

 

Hoid mentions the God Beyond in WoR in a story to Shallan. Wayne mentions the God Beyond in Alloy of Law. Finally, Silence mentions it in Shadows for Silence.

 

I know that in this context God is synonymous with Adonalsium, but I don't think it should be. I think Adonalsium was a copy of the attributes of God that was broken and scattered. I don't think it was a copy of God, just a copy of his attributes.

 

Can you explain what makes you think Adonalsium was a copy of God's attributes? I've never heard anything like that proposed before, and it's an interesting idea.

[Dalinar42 Ferring]

Oh, sure! When the writer of the Letter said that Rayse had all of the wrath of God with none of the context which gives it meaning is my first clue that the people of the Cosmere still have God to give them a point of reference. Odium is an attribute of God, so are Preservation and so forth. That can mean two things. First, that God has been shattered. Second, copies of God's attributes were made and that was broken and scattered throughout the Cosmere, leaving God to orchestrate a plan to put it back together.

[[email protected] Misting]

I think Mr. Sanderson introduced the idea of Adonalsium as a cosmere wide influence to provoke exactly this debate, whether Adonalsium is God or not.

I always thought of the concept of God at two levels. First is a personal one. He is someone we can identify with, who gives us morality, hope and faith.

Another idea of God is the external idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent being who is the creator of the universe. This deity is mostly a undefined being because trying to define it limits the scope of the deity. What Brandon did is to create Adonalsium along the lines of this supreme creator and then subverted the trope by having him shattered because that means he is not all-powerful. So is he God or not. The same thing plays out at Roshar with Honor and his splintering.

[Dalinar42 Ferring]

Should I create a new theory based on this in a new thread?

[Shaggai Seer]

I think Mr. Sanderson introduced the idea of Adonalsium as a cosmere wide influence to provoke exactly this debate, whether Adonalsium is God or not.

I always thought of the concept of God at two levels. First is a personal one. He is someone we can identify with, who gives us morality, hope and faith.

Another idea of God is the external idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent being who is the creator of the universe. This deity is mostly a undefined being because trying to define it limits the scope of the deity. What Brandon did is to create Adonalsium along the lines of this supreme creator and then subverted the trope by having him shattered because that means he is not all-powerful. So is he God or not. The same thing plays out at Roshar with Honor and his splintering.

That seems much more likely to me. Brandon likes to explore complex themes around morality and religion, and just copying God and splitting up the copy wouldn't be as interesting.

[~sylphrena~ Bridgeman]

I think Mr. Sanderson introduced the idea of Adonalsium as a cosmere wide influence to provoke exactly this debate, whether Adonalsium is God or not.

I always thought of the concept of God at two levels. First is a personal one. He is someone we can identify with, who gives us morality, hope and faith.

Another idea of God is the external idea of an omnipresent, omnipotent being who is the creator of the universe. This deity is mostly a undefined being because trying to define it limits the scope of the deity. What Brandon did is to create Adonalsium along the lines of this supreme creator and then subverted the trope by having him shattered because that means he is not all-powerful. So is he God or not. The same thing plays out at Roshar with Honor and his splintering.

 

That seems much more likely to me. Brandon likes to explore complex themes around morality and religion, and just copying God and splitting up the copy wouldn't be as interesting.

 

^Come to think of it, that's the same dilemma Sazed struggled with in Mistborn... Sanderson does seem to enjoy contrasting a personal vs. deistic/impersonal view of God (or more, specifically, torturing his characters with it xD). However, I think I could still see him going both ways (making God a generic concept inherent in everyone or making him more personable, reliable, and tangible.)

 

I get why you say it's not as interesting to have Adolnasium be a copy of God... however, do you think it's still possible that there's something more than flawed people who have assumed a god's power in the cosmere?

Edited November 5, 2014 by ~sylphrena~

[Dalinar42 Ferring]

Yes yes yes yes. That last paragraph sounds like a perfected version of my theory. Adolnasium is a lower God that God himself created. God is still alive and whole, while this lesser God was shattered! Ha!

[Shaggai Seer]

^Come to think of it, that's the same dilemma Sazed struggled with in Mistborn... Sanderson does seem to enjoy contrasting a personal vs. deistic/impersonal view of God (or more, specifically, torturing his characters with it xD). However, I think I could still see him going both ways (making God a generic concept inherent in everyone or making him more personable, reliable, and tangible.)

 

I get why you say it's not as interesting to have Adolnasium be a copy of God... however, do you think it's still possible that there's something more than flawed people who have assumed a god's power in the cosmere?

Certainly. Brandon's definitely religious. It makes sense to have some sort of full-on God faded into the foreground.

[~sylphrena~ Bridgeman]

I ran across this WoB after lyht posted it on "The Nature of the Seventeeth Shard":

 

Brandon:

... So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.

 

 
Is there any significance to the fact that Brandon calls Adolnasium a "he" - implying that it is not an abstract idea, but, just maybe, a real person? Could this "person" still be a copy of God's attributes? (like the Christian/Mormon idea of one god in three persons)? Is he less than god, or the physical form of the god perhaps?

Edited November 21, 2014 by ~sylphrena~