A New Use (And a Big One at That!) for Aluminum

[Moogle]

I will add to that. When we talk about burning metals, doesn't that mean accessing the power of Preservation. Brandon has told several times that metals are only a gateway to access the power. So do the metals disappear from the allomancer stomach after "burning"? I tried to find a WoB only it but couldn't. Aluminium when "burned" is believed to block the power entering through other metals. So do the metals themselves vanish or only the power flowing through them vanishes? If only the power vanishes but not the metals then a non-savant aluminium gnat won't be able to make a sword struck into him vanish even if other conditions are met.

 

Kelsier warns Vin to burn all of her metals before going to sleep to avoid metal poisoning, so I think we can safely assume the metals are burned up. There's also several WoBs asking about metals that are "vaporized", and though some are contradictory, Brandon takes it as a given that they are in fact vaporized each time, and in one says they'll return to the planet like atium and the Pits of Hathsin.

 

Edit: WoB:

The Nameless One:

I just got back from the Phoenix Comic on, where Brandon is a guest at, and I must say it was an honor to meet him. He read parts of Wax/Wayne 2, Legion 2, and the Taravangian interlude in WoR. There weren't a lot of cosmeric goodies, but I did get a couple interesting tidbits in relation to Mistborn: Ruin would have had to manifest to reabsorb the atium, the Well of Ascension did not come at a price to Preservation's power, and perhaps the most interesting one. Burned metals are turned into a different form, and will eventually return to the planet. The Pits of Hath sin are meant to foreshadow this.

(source)

Edited November 3, 2014 by Moogle

[the winter system]

In Future Mistborn books they might have like "Pits of Allomatic Copper" and "Pits of Allomatic Bronze" where they mine up returned metals. Hm. Interesting food for thought. Or should I say metal for allomancy? Mwahaha.

 

I don't believe the theory would work practically for one simple reason:

How to find an Aluminum Gnat?

Eat some aluminum and burn it? No visible effect.

[Twenty@20]

Kelsier warns Vin to burn all of her metals before going to sleep to avoid metal poisoning, so I think we can safely assume the metals are burned up. There's also several WoBs asking about metals that are "vaporized", and though some are contradictory, Brandon takes it as a given that they are in fact vaporized each time, and in one says they'll return to the planet like atium and the Pits of Hathsin

Well I agree the metals would eventually be returned to the planet. I was just hoping that after burning the metals would be um.. removed from the body by natural means.(There is no polite way of saying this) Anyway guess I was wrong.

[Pathfinder]

How to find an Aluminum Gnat?

I would go a step further, how did a twinborn discover he or she was a twinborn especially considering during TLR's time, it didn't exist. For instance Wayne could one day have stolen gold, and realized he felt ill when he held it and then put two and two together to figure out he was storing health without meaning to, but then how did he figure out he could burn bendalloy too? Wax might be a little more plausible given that it is reasonable to think he has laid hands on iron in the span of his life, and given possibly the high metallic content in the water, or just the plates and cups used he could have ingested traces of steel after snapping but what about Miles Hundredlives? How did he figure out compounding? 

Edited November 3, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Oudeis]

So, what's the verdict? On a scale of "impossible" to "I-do-it-all-the-time", how plausible is it to use aluminum as a protective dissipation shield against lethal wounds?

 

Just this side of impossible, pending clarification from Mr. Sanderson on his contradictory W's-o-B regarding whether metals piercing you but not in your stomach can be 'burned', and if a metal you personally cannot burn is considered a "reserve".

 

I would go a step further, how did a twinborn discover he or she was a twinborn especially considering during TLR's time, it didn't exist. For instance Wayne could one day have stolen gold, and realized he felt ill when he held it and then put two and two together to figure out he was storing health without meaning to, but then how did he figure out he could burn bendalloy too? Wax might be a little more plausible given that it is reasonable to think he has laid hands on iron in the span of his life, and given possibly the high metallic content in the water, or just the plates and cups used he could have ingested traces of steel after snapping but what about Miles Hundredlives? How did he figure out compounding? 

 

I don't understand what you are saying here? You're asking how it's possible for someone to know they are twinborn? Because people know feruchemy exists and test for it, and people know allomancy exists and test for it. From The Lord Ruler, they know a single person can have both feruchemy and allomancy.

 

If you're asking specifically why they tested bendalloy, I believe Harmony gave hints in his Words of Founding.

[Pathfinder]

I don't understand what you are saying here? You're asking how it's possible for someone to know they are twinborn? Because people know feruchemy exists and test for it, and people know allomancy exists and test for it. From The Lord Ruler, they know a single person can have both feruchemy and allomancy.

 

If you're asking specifically why they tested bendalloy, I believe Harmony gave hints in his Words of Founding.

What are the tests to test for feruchemy and allomancy? I know beating someone to snap them, but that doesn't determine what misting they are nor if they are a feruchemist as well. Was it detailed somewhere or is there a WoB that state how they test to find out what your feruchemal and allomantic ability is? And if there are tests for which ability you have, then why does it say in the Arcanum that it is hard to locate dularium and aluminum mistings since when they burn it, nothing happens? Not asking to be critical, but just wondering if there was a big WoB, or part in a book i missed 

 

Also even assuming tests to determine what abilities you have, I am curious how Miles Hundredlives figured out compounding. Unless he found an ancient rule book or someone showed him how to. 

Edited November 3, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Moogle]

A Feruchemist knows he's a Feruchemist instinctually when he touches metal that can be a metalmind. WoB:

Josh
How does one detect a new Feruchemist?

Brandon Sanderson
Feruchemists, when they touch metals, have an empathy for the metal that they can use.

(source)

 

Mistborn, as shown in the books, are just given a vial of metals and should be able to instinctually burn them if they're an Allomancer (and have Snapped). For example, atium Mistings were found by spiking noble's drink's with trace amounts of atium, surprising them via Inquisitor to get them to instinctually burn the atium, and then the Inquisitor could detect that via Allomantic bronze.

 

I'm not sure what they do on Scadrial to Snap people. It's a strong possibility everyone snaps during birth. Also possible is that the mists gently Snap people.

 

The book never says duralumin or aluminum Mistings are hard to find because their metals do "nothing" - that was a problem in TFE because nobody knew those were Allomantic metals so no one ever tested with them. Post-Harmony, this shouldn't be a problem.

 

As to Inquisitors, some were able to figure out Compounding on their own without TLR telling them. It's not like it's a once in a trillion chance that a Twinborn will burn their own metalmind, and then spontaneously discover Compounding. By Alloy of Law times, it appears to be common knowledge that Compounding is a thing.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Moogle

[Oudeis]

Miles is not the first compounder ever. And, as we saw with Vin and Sazed, discovering compounding independently is not difficult. If he'd been the first compounder ever, even if he hadn't known that the Lord Ruler used compounding, all it would have taken was a single day when he thought to himself, "I wonder what happens if I burn my goldmind... oh hey, it gives me ALL the health!"

 

As to the test, I assume they just give you a vial with a bit of every metal and see if you feel a "reserve" appear. Vin, before she knew what allomancy was, could "feel" her store of luck.

 

It's difficult for others to find duralumin and aluminum gnats, because their powers don't really do anything. It's not independently difficult for the gnat himself to know. In which Arcanum did it say that they are difficult to find? I know it was mentioned in an epigraph in Hero of Ages, but for reasons which don't exist by Alloy of Law era.

[Pathfinder]

Thank you both for the info! I know this is a digression, but I do have one more question that popped in my mind that I am not sure if there has been any info on, and then I will stop altering the original subject of the thread, promise! So I know burning a bead of lesarium makes you a mistborn, and alloying lesarium with another metal gives you the misting associated with that metal. I don't know exactly how alloying works, but I envision it to be take some of one metal, some of another, portion out the correct percentage and "mix". If this understanding is trueish, then if you take a bead of lesarium, take a little of it to make a misting, can you still become a mistborn from the original unalloyed bead and since there is less of the original bead, you become a weaker mistborn? And if that is a case, could you theoretically become an even stronger misborn by burning multiple beads of lesarium? Just a random thought that bounced around in my head. Thanks!

[Oudeis]

The short answer is that we do not know. There's been a few W's-o-B indicating that burning "more" lerasium starts to do some weird things, but basically it seems like it isn't quite as simple as that.

[Twenty@20]

 

As to the test, I assume they just give you a vial with a bit of every metal and see if you feel a "reserve" appear. Vin, before she knew what allomancy was, could "feel" her store of luck.

 

It's difficult for others to find duralumin and aluminum gnats, because their powers don't really do anything. It's not independently difficult for the gnat himself to know. In which Arcanum did it say that they are difficult to find? I know it was mentioned in an epigraph in Hero of Ages, but for reasons which don't exist by Alloy of Law era.

I have this quote from The Final Empire which proves your point

Vin cried out, trying without success to resist the pain. Eventually, she gave in and swallowed the bit of metal.

“Now burn it,” the Inquisitor ordered, twisting harder.

Vin resisted nonetheless, sensing the unfamiliar metal reserve within her.

[JimmyTMalice]

I believe Wayne's father was a Feruchemist, so presumably he tested him by giving him a sliver of each metal to see if he had a Feruchemical affinity for any of them.

[gjustice99]

If burning aluminum dissolves metal in the body then why wasn't Vin's earring dissolved when Yomen gave her aluminum?

[Unhinged]

If burning aluminum dissolves metal in the body then why wasn't Vin's earring dissolved when Yomen gave her aluminum?

 

Maybe you can't burn a hemalurgic spike?

 

But that is a good question.

[Oudeis]

If burning aluminum dissolves metal in the body then why wasn't Vin's earring dissolved when Yomen gave her aluminum?

 

We all want to know this. We have WoB that any metal piercing the skin can be a reserve, and hemalurgic spikes count. The only thing I can think of which makes any sense is, it's just not the default, there's some additional step one must take to gain access to another source of metal outside of your stomach. If Vin knew this trick, she could have used her earring as an allomantic reserve, and that time she burned duralumin with bronze she'd've burned away the earring.

 

Yomen never gave Vin aluminum; the only time we see her burn it is when an Inquisitor gives it to her after she gets captured the second time she tries to break into that room. Yomen kept her unconscious and drugged for days until her body "processed" all the metal out of it.

[Pathfinder]

well here at least is a theory as to why burning a spike would be incredibly painful. Wouldn't burning a spike mean you are using up the metal, slowly removing the bind point and eventually have an effect like yanking the spike out? This is all conjecture, i have nothing to base this on

[anonymous2017]

After some more researching, I still stick with my theory that a Mistborn (perhaps not an Aluminum Gnat) could burn away a sword or bullet piercing his skin by using burning aluminum, as long as that sword/bullet hadn't passed through someone's heart on the way.

 

I don't know how fast aluminum burns. If its exceptionally short burning, it might require atium to time it right.

Edited November 17, 2014 by martyrboy

[Oudeis]

Hrm... the short, inexact but close enough for your purposes answer is: Aluminum burns instantaneously, regardless of amount. So... yeah atium would be an absolute requirement, and you'd need a new supply every time you did the trick.

 

The longer, more pedantic answer: The burn rate of aluminum is irrelevant. It vanishes every metal reserve you have instantly, including itself. Functionally, you can't destroy a sword unless you don't start burning aluminum until the sword is already piercing your skin, by however much it has to in order to count as your reserve. (Per other, relates W's-o-B, I assume this means touching moving blood.

[High prince of geeks]

Okay here's a thought. If you could burn away the spear there would be already strange effect. Suddenly in this almost meter long piece of metal is instantly gone with nothing in its place. The air in the surrounding area would rush in cause a fairly usless(but theatrical effect)

[killersquirrel59]

Sorry, I can't really buy this. Aluminum burns instantly as seen in TFE, not over time to allow for the kind of protection you suggest. All the enhancement metals burn instantly (or at least insanely fast, seconds at the most from the evidence seen with Duralumin). This would require such precise timing that it would be completely impractical.

 

And even if the timing worked, there is just too much evidence that other metal is not counted as part of reserves. Most of that has already been mentioned earlier in the thread so I won't waste space reposting it now. I'm not sure why, but I could theorize that there is a cognitive element to a metal reserve. Maybe if you don't think of it as part of your reserve, it isn't? That could explain how Vin could burn bronze without burning away her earring at least. Besides, if all metal within you counted as part of your reserve, then Zane's trick with the coin in his mouth could have been disastrous. We don't know precisely what metals he was burning at the time, but given it was during a full Mistborn battle sequence it seems safe to assume most of them. We also are not too sure of the composition of the coin (I'm not aware of anything specifically stating what the coinage in the Final Empire was made of, other than it being obviously not silver which we know to be allomantically inert), but chances are it would be one of the metals he was burning, likely Copper as most Mistborn leave their Copper on constantly. We have seen no way to consciously dictate which part of a reserve burns away, nor any sign of orders of precedence for burning. Even worse, the composition of the coin was likely not Allomantically pure and could thus have easily killed him if it started burning randomly as part of his reserve, as could Vin's earring at any time she was burning Bronze. Even more evidence could be seen from the Lord Ruler's Atium Minds that pierced his arms. Would he take the chance that burning Atium as he needed to store more Age might accidentally burn away the big storage mind as well as whatever small bit he had used for compounding? Not to mention any other time he might need Atium such as when fighting Kelsier. There is just way too much wrong with this idea for it to really be feasible in my opinion.

 

Also, from a medical note, even if it did work the way you suggest, most of the immediate damage of being stabbed actually comes when the blade is removed, not when it goes in. Given that the metal would already need to be piercing the Aluminum Gnat for it to be affected, the likely result would just be that he would bleed to death faster.

[Spellcaster]

Could impuruties be magical influences? Its basicly antimagic?

Like Szeth lash aluminium gnat to Moon, unlucky gnat than should go toward the Moon but run of invested stormlight on height of clouds and so became pancake.

Except he burns aluminium just when falling start, get rid of storm light and effect of lashing, not much acceleration was gained so instead raising on high of few kilometers its just 1 meter, preaty survivable but confuses both what happend.

Now just get misting who uses aluminiums effect on touch range to attack Szeth.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Spellcaster

[SmurfAquamarineBodies]

I think there's a WoB that says it's possible but it would take practice.

[Spellcaster]

Well shouldnt be suprising since all magic in end comes from same source, so such interection should be posible. And since shard are going own paths explains why its not imediatly possible for above situation to happen but need practice.

 

there is dakhor monks who can get some antimagic (should probably also need some alteration to interact with surgebindings as example).

 

hmm antimagic seems to be expensive if all aluminium in body is used and depending how much its its acualy needed for removing magical iinfluences and dakhor needing 50 killed for one men to get ability.

 

wondering how many uniqe abilities there are, non including variations like antimagic(aliminium and dakhor version) and illusion (Hoid's and surgebinding version).

[kinxer]

An observation about Vin's earring, which I don't see as a direct obstacle to this theory (though there are other obstacles I agree with): when a Twinborn has unstored metal and stored metal in their stomach, they sense these reserves differently, as if they were different metals. Likely, if hemalurgic spikes can be burned by any allomancer (the two WOB's referenced by Outis on the first page are conflicting, here's the link: http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27hemalurgy%27 ) the spike would be sensed as a separate reserve in the same way. It's possible that Hemalurgically-charged metal is incredibly difficult to sense, but I'm not sure about that one. It seems like a stretch in order to justify an allomancer being able to burn any metal that's piercing their body, but there's no evidence that Inquisitors sense their spikes as allomantic reserves, either. Regardless, I thought that this observation might be helpful.

[Wesnav]

If burning aluminum dissolves metal in the body then why wasn't Vin's earring dissolved when Yomen gave her aluminum?

Why doesn't burning aluminum dissolve the iron in your red blood cells (killing you), or copper in a lobsters blue blood cells. =D