Elhokar is not a Proto-Radiant

[Oudeis]

On the topic though, it notes that Lightweaving is common throughout the Cosmere. What other instances of illusion magic have we seen outside of Roshar and Yolen versions of the power?

 

Sel, using AonDor, as I believe is noted in the Ars Arcanum of Words of Radiance.

 

Sooooo..... I just read Chapter 44: The Weeping, of Way of Kings, and it hit me in the face like a haddock that Tien is the other Lightweaver. He carves a photorealistic horse that he saw recently with uncanny skill. He is something of an expert on the nature of Truth, as Shallan sees it; i.e., Truth is perception. If a man thinks he's noble, he is noble. If a woman can convince others to obey her, they will obey her. If Tien can convince Kaladin to be happy, then he is happy. That is Truth. Then, just as Shallan is able to convince a mercenary to act with nobility by giving him a picture showing him he CAN be noble, Tien uses his powers to counteract Kaladin's Seasonal Affective Disorder on the roof during the Weeping.

 

But, where is he getting his Stormlight from? It's during the Weeping, when all of their spheres have gone dun.

 

See now I feel like this makes his death even more tragic. He was on a path that would have given him the ability to recover from such a comparatively minor wound, and he gets cut down, not by a Thunderclast or a Voidbringer, but just some random soldier in a pointless border skirmish. Hrm, though now I know he's a Radiant, maybe it was a Skybreaker?

[Twenty@20]

To actually be clear on the first matter, many people are saying that Renarin is Lightweaving. The term is being used with purpose and he is being labelled "Lightweaver". It's happened several times. Again, doesn't mean Renarin isn't Lightweaving, but it is an assumption on another assumption as far as I can see.

Hoid could be called a Lightweaver though. As I mentioned earlier, just because there are Lightweavers on Roshar doesn't mean that Lightweaver isn't a valid term on Yolen as well, in fact it may be where the name originally comes from. Hoid was there when Adonalsium shattered, suggesting that he predates the separation of the different magic systems. We know his operates similarly, though it may be through different resources. That doesn't mean he isn't a Lightweaver.

The AA definition of Lightweaving also doesn't prove that the two forms of Illusion surge utilization are not unique. Just because no Soulcasting is being used doesn't mean every Illusion is Lightweaving. Perhaps Shallan can create images on paper and turn them into illusions while Renarin can project his visions into visible light for others to see. Maybe his version of the Illusion magic operates by creating the visions in other peoples heads vs. in visible space. Those abilities are nearly identical, but unique to each Order while only one fits the definition.

On the topic though, it notes that Lightweaving is common throughout the Cosmere. What other instances of illusion magic have we seen outside of Roshar and Yolen versions of the power?

We see Raoden and Galladon attach illusions to their cloths to change appearances in Elantris. And it looked quite similar to Shallan's illusions.

Pattern had said in WoR that Shallan should be able to cast illusions without drawing them out first. Also creating visions in other people's head won't need any light and sound effect. That's will be some sort of telepathic power.

Its true we haven't seen Renarin creating illusions but we are only drawing a logical conclusion from two facts that, namely, Renarin has the Surge of Illumination and Brandon said Illumination will be used by both orders in same way.

Edit: Outis beat me to the Sel example

Edited November 4, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Bloodfalcon]

Pattern had said in WoR that Shallan should be able to cast illusions without drawing them out first. Also creating visions in other people's head won't need any light and sound effect. That's will be some sort of telepathic power.

Its true we haven't seen Renarin creating illusions but we are only drawing a logical conclusion from two facts that, namely, Renarin has the Surge of Illumination and Brandon said Illumination will be used by both orders in same way.

Still appreciate the example! 

Also, I haven't seen that WoB yet. The only one that I've seen that applies to the term "Lightweaving" (excluding the AA quote) is the WoB Aleksial provided that made a very clear distinction between Lightweaving and "illusion magic". 

 

 

 

Some of the magic systems have been discovered on different planets, and some of them do work. A lot of them don't, but some of them do. It depends on your spiritual DNA, what people are able to do, and things like that. But, if you find a way to do illusion magic in one of my worlds it's going to work pretty much like Lightweaving, regardless of which planet you're on. If that makes sense.

If you are saying all Illusion magic is "Lightweaving", this sentence should stop you in your tracks, considering some Illusion magic "[works] pretty much like Lightweaving". It's almost not even debatable, though I can't say I know the date of that WoB, or any of the ones cited here for that matter. One of them seems to be backpedaling on the "Kaladin has met two Lightweavers" quote by saying that only one of those was in the Order "Lightweavers" and the other one was just using the power of a Lightweaver. To me that sounds like a perfect match to a scenario where Brandon gave a quote, Peter cast doubt after we started theorizing for the very reason we are confused, and Brandon clarified. 

[Twenty@20]

Re: Bloodfalcon. I agree with you that the various illusory magics seen on different cosmere planets are not Lightweaving per se. They have only similar end result illusions and their limitations may be same. But I believe any illusion we see perform on Roshar by KR should be called Lightweaving, if only for the sake of simplicity, until Brandon or Peter says otherwise because it is the same Surge and same Stormlight which forms it.

Its funny how many people (including me) have quoted that WoB about adjacent orders using their common Surge in the same way but it has not be quoted in full yet. Well I admit I am hopeless at finding WoB's at will but I assure you I have seen it somewhere.

[Bloodfalcon]

Re: Bloodfalcon. I agree with you that the various illusory magics seen on different cosmere planets are not Lightweaving per se. They have only similar end result illusions and their limitations may be same. But I believe any illusion we see perform on Roshar by KR should be called Lightweaving, if only for the sake of simplicity, until Brandon or Peter says otherwise because it is the same Surge and same Stormlight which forms it.

Its funny how many people (including me) have quoted that WoB about adjacent orders using their common Surge in the same way but it has not be quoted in full yet. Well I admit I am hopeless at finding WoB's at will but I assure you I have seen it somewhere.

No, I believe you. I just wanted to see how it was worded. Wouldn't be the first time people exaggerated or played the telephone game 10 times too many. It also wouldn't be the first time one WoB completely contradicted another, but in context it's a conscious adjustment  by Brandon to correct something. Most of those have to do with scientific fields, but when the dude is willing to divert major characters from major paths (ex: Kaladin's Shardblade decision), you know nothing is certain until you read it in a published form. 

[Aleksiel]

If he's literally seeing it, before him, in sound and light, why does no one else see it? If he's only "seeing" it in his head, then it isn't sound and light. This cannot be the same thing as the Illumination Surge which, as Moogle has pointed out, should function nearly identically to how Shallan uses it.

This also happens days apart from the "I see" quote. Even if I didn't have a second suggestion, it's still an enormous stretch to think they're the same thing.

However, I do have an alternate theory to suggest. I think he was answering what his Ideal is. When Pattern asks Shallan, "Why you?" which is fundamentally the same question if asked in an odd manner, her answer is to say she finds Truth, the Ideal of her order. I humbly suggest the Truthwatchers have as their Ideal something about observation, or judgement, or something else about seeing.

And please keep in mind, my point isn't to say that I'm right, for sure. I'm just saying, your support for why the two scenes HAD to be related was the total lack of a second option. Unless and until you can prove beyond literally any shadow of a doubt that Truthwatchers do not see, then this is at least a second option.

 

When you say someone is seeing things it implies those things are visible only to that person as in his mind, not real-life-solid things.

 

Illumination includes all sorts of waves. Waves aren't only for illusions that everyone can see, else there wouldn't have been distinction between Illumination and its sub-surge Lightweaving.

 

Note that Shallan also sees things - she drew the crew and possibly Shalash, which implies some distant use of Illumination, because Transformation clearly can't do this. She's the only one who saw that and she saw it her mind. Pretty much the same Ren could see certain things inside his mind. That's why he's the one who sees, otherwise it'd be for everyone, which makes the statement pointless again.  

 

Ren uses 'see' every time he speaks of his powers, it's unfounded to disregard it and consider it coincidence. He said he sees after Kaladin asked him what he did. So what Ren does is he sees however you choose to interpret it. There's no connection between his Oaths and the question he was asked; Kal gave for example Shallan weaving light and himself ridding the winds, no Ideals involved in the conversation, so I do not see grounds for your alternative explanation. 

 

I'm having trouble parsing what you're saying here. You seem to be conflating his two statements. He speaks of predictions, and says they're bad. He speaks of looking at the past, and says it requires perspective. He never says anything about the future requiring perspective, he just says it's bad, and then he moves on.

And since one of the Visions is of the Recreance, and Tanavast says, "These are all things I've seen," I'm gonna go ahead and call it canon that the Visions were made after the Recreance.

...How? He's only showing visions of the past, and speaking of what must be done in the present. It's no more "speaking of what might be" than I'm "predicting" my lunch when I give the waiter my order. I think we have to grant a little leeway here; magical oracles are clearly in one category, while "what do you wanna do this weekend?" is in another.

 

 

Tanavast doesn't not use the word bad, he says forbidden. His second sentance is to clarify the previous one, thus making connection between the restriction of speaking about what is to come and the subjective future that depends on one's perspective. If they aren't connected, then he's throwing random sentences, which doesn't seem to be the case. 

 

He's breaking the restriction because he tries to predict the future - everstorm, champions, the Night of Sorrows, all these are predictions. He says he's trying to see the future, but it's like trying to see through broken glass. And he's telling all that to the reciever of the visions, clearly breaking the restriction of not speaking of what is to come. He has some limited ability to foresee, so just because he says he's seen the Recreanse doesn't necessarily mean it had happened when he said it. It could have been in the short-term future Honor could see.

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty sure these are both the same thing. Skill with the spear, skill dodging blades, it's all just "skill fighting".

And I'm afraid it's pretty much a slam-dunk that it's Kaladin's passive. Every time he's described as fighting, he's shown with supernatural skill, including the very first time he fights ever. At one point, he touches a spear, chooses not to use it, and his fingers literally feel like they're burning. It's mentioned constantly that the people who trained him, the people who have trained scores if not hundreds of men, are constantly stunned by his innate skill. He knows forms and stances almost without being taught. When he hadn't touched a spear in months, he whips out an expert kata perfectly. That simply isn't how procedural memory works. And la piece de resistance, when he fights, the wind visibly warps around him, shown from three different perspectives on two separate occasions. No amount of training can accomplish this clearly magical feat.

 

How could Kaladin possibly get a passive before the Nahel-bond?

[Natanaj]

According to WoB, Kaladin has met two Lightweavers. I wouldn't say that this immediately disproves your theory, but it heavily suggests that Elhokar is a Radiant.

hoid and shallan

[Oudeis]

hoid and shallan

 

Shallan and Tien.

[Aleksiel]

Shallan and Tien.

 

It can't be Tien or Elhokar for that matter (since him being proto-LW is another theory).

 

QUESTION

Have we seen another Lightweaver?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The power? Yes. The Order? No.

 

source

 

edit: I consider this WoB combined with the one about Kal meeting two LW to point towards a LW is Kaladin's past. My spheres are on Tarah. It's just a guess, she's been brought up in both books, yet we know close to nothing about her.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Aleksiel

[Oudeis]

I think the definition is loose and he changes it sometimes. Like, I think when he says "Kaladin has met two Lightweavers" he means two people bonded to a Cryptic. When he says, "The Order? No." he means that Tien never said any of the Ideals, and so he's not technically an Order of the Radiants.

 

I dunno. This is all getting so confusing and seems so contradictory. We have all these W's-o-B and it's difficult to reconcile them, and the various important words seem open to a number of different potential explanations.

 

...Hrm. I guess I have a new theory... We've been told that there are, depending on how you look at it, 10 or 30 forms of magic. It's been speculated that this means Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and a third branch of magic all access the same powers, just different ways. Perhaps Tien had access to Illumination and Transformation, but via a different method than Surgebinding, and so he had the power, but wasn't part of the Order? All I know is, we see him carve a photorealistic horse shortly after seeing it, and we see him do something that looks very, VERY suspiciously alike to Shallan's trick of combining Illumination and Transformation. Though, he explicitly does it at a time when Stormlight should not have been available, so I don't know how to explain that.

[Aleksiel]

Honestly, I have no idea when someone counts as a Lightweaver. Actually, if we take the five-Radiant-Oaths definition it gets even weirder. Or is someone a LW when they attract a Cryptic? Or say the first Ideal? We need canon on this...

 

About the magic systems 

 

 

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Fabrials are part of it.

 

 

QUESTION

Fabrials replicate Soulcasting abilities. Is it possible for fabrials to replicate all such Surgebinding abilities?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, good question! Fabrials can replicate all of the Surgebinding abilities.

 

Do we count fabrials as a magic system or not? I guess... not? 

 

The Honorblades are from Honor, so they could be system 1. The second magic system could be the spren mimicking honor's, a bit weird I know, but spren are involved with fabrials, which are past of the magic systems. So the third could be Odium's. Or whatever Cultivation does... Does it even count as magic?

[Moogle]

Honestly, I have no idea when someone counts as a Lightweaver. Actually, if we take the five-Radiant-Oaths definition it gets even weirder. Or is someone a LW when they attract a Cryptic? Or say the first Ideal? We need canon on this...

 

About the magic systems 

 

 

Do we count fabrials as a magic system or not? I guess... not? 

 

The Honorblades are from Honor, so they could be system 1. The second magic system could be the spren mimicking honor's, a bit weird I know, but spren are involved with fabrials, which are past of the magic systems. So the third could be Odium's. Or whatever Cultivation does... Does it even count as magic?

 

 

By WoB, the thirty are Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and the third involves fabrials.

 

WoB:

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

(source)

 

I wouldn't consider fabrials as part of the 30 systems, since there's a fabrial for every type of spren, and there's a spren for almost anything you can imagine. It's a bit wonky though - the idea of a magic "system" is just a box we humans put things into, and it does not corrrespond perfectly to the world. On Roshar, there seems to be a fundamental system of bonds or some other focus which provide magic, and this naturally aligns itself into Surgebinding, Voidbinding, etc.

[Aleksiel]

 

 

By WoB, the thirty are Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and the third involves fabrials.

 

WoB:

 

I wouldn't consider fabrials as part of the 30 systems, since there's a fabrial for every type of spren, and there's a spren for almost anything you can imagine. It's a bit wonky though - the idea of a magic "system" is just a box we humans put things into, and it does not corrrespond perfectly to the world. On Roshar, there seems to be a fundamental system of bonds or some other focus which provide magic, and this naturally aligns itself into Surgebinding, Voidbinding, etc.

 

Yeah, I posted the same quote in the same post you quoted. Yet I phrased it as if there were only three, which wasn't my intention. I counted the Honorblades for first 10, spren surgebinding for the second 10 and assumed the last ten to go together again  being Odium's or Cultivation's. If she created a magic system that is. 

[Moogle]

Yeah, I posted the same quote in the same post you quoted. Yet I phrased it as if there were only three, which wasn't my intention. I counted the Honorblades for first 10, spren surgebinding for the second 10 and assumed the last ten to go together again  being Odium's or Cultivation's. If she created a magic system that is.

 

Sorry, I didn't read closely enough!

 

Honorblades and Surgebinding are almost certainly the same system. The Ars Arcanum describes it like this:

THE TEN SURGES As a complement to the Essences, the classical elements celebrated on Roshar, are found the Ten Surges. These—thought to be the fundamental forces by which the world operates— are more accurately a representation of the ten basic abilities offered to the Heralds, and then the Knights Radiant , by their bonds.

 

The system seems to be "bond the right thing and you get Surgebinding", rather than "bond an Honorblade specifically" and "bond a spren specifically".

 

Surgebinding fabrials might count as a different system, but I find it unlikely, again due to the Ars Arcanum. The Ars Arcanum has this to speculate:

I’m not certain yet how the ten levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something entirely different.

 

The Old Magic isn't a system, except insofar as spren in general are a "system" on Roshar. It seems to entirely be the Nightwatcher's doing. This leaves us this "series of abilities that is even more esoteric than the Voidbindings", which could be this theoretical Cultivation or Honor+Cultivation+Odium or Cultivation+Odium system. Fitting it in with the WoB, we can guess it involves fabrials. I'm tempted to think the black gem Gavilar had is involved, though that may be Voidbinding, or something else entirely.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Moogle