Question and Answer

[Kurkistan]

@Arc

 

An organization. There name is intended to indicate that they have their own "Intent," though.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Arceoxys]

Another query for you fellas

 

Has it been confirmed if Hemalurgy, depending on the spike point, can steal the "powers" of another Shard?

I mean, if you spiked someone with the right metal in the right place, could you take a surgebinding power?

[Moogle]

Another query for you fellas

 

Has it been confirmed if Hemalurgy, depending on the spike point, can steal the "powers" of another Shard?

I mean, if you spiked someone with the right metal in the right place, could you take a surgebinding power?

 

Yep. Hemalurgy can steal anything that is related to the spirit. It can steal someone's memories, their identity, and probably the Nahel bond. It's an open question as to whether you could keep a stolen Nahel bond. I lean towards yes.

 

You might be interested in all the stuff here.

[Arceoxys]

I was reading in the Coppermind Wiki forum about Surges and Surgebinding

 

In a thread about wanting to update some things, I came across "Second, we need an infotable for the three types of Surgebinding, the ten Surges, and the 30 orders."

 

I thought there were 10 orders? And what is the difference between surges and surgebinding?

[WeiryWriter]

I was reading in the Coppermind Wiki forum about Surges and Surgebinding

 

In a thread about wanting to update some things, I came across "Second, we need an infotable for the three types of Surgebinding, the ten Surges, and the 30 orders."

 

I thought there were 10 orders? And what is the difference between surges and surgebinding?

 

There are ten surges and ten orders.  That quote refers to the other magic systems on Roshar.  "Surges" are the abilities that are a part of Surgebinding (like how ironpulls/steelpushes are a part of allomancy).

[Arceoxys]

So Kaladin is a part of 1 order, and has access to 1 surge, which gives him multiple surgebindings?

 

EDIT: or is it multiple surges for 1 Surgebinding?

Edited March 27, 2014 by Arceoxys

[Argent]

Each Radiant or Surgebinder (e.g. Kaladin) belongs to one Order (e.g. Windrunners), which Order has access to two Surges (e.g. Adhesion & Gravitation). Each Surge comes with its own set of powers, most of which we only have a vague idea about. 

[Arceoxys]

Alright, so if there are 10 Radiant Orders, and in the above quote it was said there are 30 Orders, what are the other 20?

 

I feel like I am just not grasping this at ALL and I truly apologize if I am making anyone facedesk

[Awesomeness Summoned]

The chart on the inside of the tWoK cover is a demonstration of this. Linked below:

The large colored glyphs are each order of surgebinder and the black glyphs are the surges they have access to. You can see each order is connected to two surges which combine to make the abilities that order can use.

 

 

Edit:

Alright, so if there are 10 Radiant Orders, and in the above quote it was said there are 30 Orders, what are the other 20?

 

I feel like I am just not grasping this at ALL and I truly apologize if I am making anyone facedesk

 

 

So far we haven't been fully introduced to the other two systems but

it's assumed the voidbinders (what the Parshendi were becoming at the end of WoR) have their own system of ten surges.

 

There are three Shards present, or have been present, on Roshar. Honor, Cultivation, and Odium so we expect each have their own magic system with ten "orders"

 

Don't feel like you are missing something. We only know about the 30 different magics because of a WoB. If you didn't know about that you'd only know about the knight's radiants and maybe voidbinders.

Edited March 27, 2014 by Awesomeness Summoned

[Arceoxys]

Ohhhh, so like Allomancy and Feruchemy and I'm guessing then there's theories about a third set of 'binders?

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Exactly. In mistborn we were only introduced to allomancy at first. Later feruchemy was explained and then in the third book we learned about how hemalurgy worked.

 

We'll likely get a slow progression of knowledge like that in stormlight.

[Teccam]

The chart on the inside of the tWoK cover is a demonstration of this. Linked below:

The large colored glyphs are each order of surgebinder and the black glyphs are the surges they have access to. You can see each order is connected to two surges which combine to make the abilities that order can use.

 

 

Edit:

 

So far we haven't been fully introduced to the other two systems but

it's assumed the voidbinders (what the Parshendi were becoming at the end of WoR) have their own system of ten surges.

 

There are three Shards present, or have been present, on Roshar. Honor, Cultivation, and Odium so we expect each have their own magic system with ten "orders"

 

Don't feel like you are missing something. We only know about the 30 different magics because of a WoB. If you didn't know about that you'd only know about the knight's radiants and maybe voidbinders.

 

Isn't the most prominent/likely current speculation more along the lines of:

 

Surgebinding: Honor + Cultivation

Voidbinding: Odium + Cultivation

??? (Fabrials?): ??? (Pure Cultivation?)

[Awesomeness Summoned]

Isn't the most prominent/likely current speculation more along the lines of:

 

Surgebinding: Honor + Cultivation

Voidbinding: Odium + Cultivation

??? (Fabrials?): ??? (Pure Cultivation?)

More or less but that's mostly speculation (albeit based on good reasoning) and I was just trying to layout the basic idea for why he mentions 30 magics when we only see around 10 so far.

[Moogle]

Isn't the most prominent/likely current speculation more along the lines of:

 

Surgebinding: Honor + Cultivation

Voidbinding: Odium + Cultivation

??? (Fabrials?): ??? (Pure Cultivation?)

 

I would say it's the the speculation that has been brought up the most because I (and others have joined me in the noble crusade) bring it up at every possible opportunity, not that it's the most likely. Still, it is based on some decent enough evidence.

 

Recent WoB saying ten belongs to Honor makes me think Voidbinding could be Odium + Cultivation + Honor, because Voidbinding has ten levels. I'd guess that the third system is Odium + Cultivation in that case. We know it involves fabrials, but not a whole lot else. It's very hard to say. I do expect mixtures of Shards are involved in the magic systems on Roshar. I highly doubt there will be one system for each Shard.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Moogle

[PorridgeBrick]

I would say it's the the speculation that has been brought up the most because I (and others have joined me in the noble crusade) bring it up at every possible opportunity, not that it's the most likely. Still, it is based on some decent enough evidence.

 

Recent WoB saying ten belongs to Honor makes me think Voidbinding could be Odium + Cultivation + Honor, because Voidbinding has ten levels. I'd guess that the third system is Odium + Cultivation in that case. We know it involves fabrials, but not a whole lot else. It's very hard to say. I do expect mixtures of Shards are involved in the magic systems on Roshar. I highly doubt there will be one system for each Shard.

 

The third system has ten too though. We know there's 30, and Surgebinding accounts for 10 and the ten levels of Voidbinding another 10, so all that remains is ten. Unless all three magic systems have Honor in them, which entirely invalidates the Intent-meshing theorem, at least one of the systems has to be ten-based without any influence from Honor, which might as well go to the magic system we know is specifically used by Honor's enemies.

[Moogle]

 The third system has ten too though. We know there's 30, and Surgebinding accounts for 10 and the ten levels of Voidbinding another 10, so all that remains is ten. Unless all three magic systems have Honor in them, which entirely invalidates the Intent-meshing theorem, at least one of the systems has to be ten-based without any influence from Honor, which might as well go to the magic system we know is specifically used by Honor's enemies.

 

It only invalidates the theory if we assume that Cultivation is compatible with every Shard. Perhaps it is Honor that is compatible with both Odium and Cultivation? In which case, the opposition between Cultivation and Odium would give rise to three systems, with Honor mixed into all of them.

 

I mean, we can say you can 'cultivate hatred', but that's mixing things. We could easily say that Cultivation is all about growing and expanding and changing, while Odium seeks to destroy and wants things to be ruined, so they're opposites. Intent-meshing is still viable as a theory, it's just that we don't understand the Intents well enough.

 

And of course, I'll grant that perhaps Roshar just had ten implanted so strongly onto it that every system will be forced to use it. It might be something like the sixteen metals of Mistborn forcing Hemalurgy to use 16... but of course, I believe there's a very large chance that Hemalurgy works with gemstones and life and other reservoirs. So perhaps this '30 systems or 10 or 3' quote is misleading because Voidbinding or the third system can be used in multiple different ways off-planet, it's just on Roshar that it's limited to 10.

 

I'm not confident at all, but it is very interesting to think about.

 

Still, given the woman on the purple chart, I stand firmly by the theory that Cultivation is involved with Voidbinding.

Edited March 28, 2014 by Moogle

[Tempus]

Another possibility - If intent-meshing is consistent, then there are six possible permutations. Thirty goes nicely into six. This would mean there are five magic systems that are of pure Honour, five of pure Cultivation, and five of pure Odium. There would then be another five Honor/Cultivation, another five Honor/Odium, and another five Odium/Cultivation.

 

So, looking at the charts, we might assume for example, that five surges are pure Honor (probably the top five), and five are pure Cultivation (probably the bottom five). For voidbinding, if the second chart is voidbinding, it would be Honor/Odium and Cultivation/Odium. The last ten would be five for Honor/Cultivation and five for Odium alone, and currently unknown. We know the number of unmade is not ten... could it be five? That would fit nicely into the above framework. Leaving the Honor/Cultivation mix up as the Old Magic, perhaps, or something else.

 

Just a thought.

[PorridgeBrick]

Another possibility - If intent-meshing is consistent, then there are six possible permutations. Thirty goes nicely into six. This would mean there are five magic systems that are of pure Honour, five of pure Cultivation, and five of pure Odium. There would then be another five Honor/Cultivation, another five Honor/Odium, and another five Odium/Cultivation.

 

So, looking at the charts, we might assume for example, that five surges are pure Honor (probably the top five), and five are pure Cultivation (probably the bottom five). For voidbinding, if the second chart is voidbinding, it would be Honor/Odium and Cultivation/Odium. The last ten would be five for Honor/Cultivation and five for Odium alone, and currently unknown. We know the number of unmade is not ten... could it be five? That would fit nicely into the above framework. Leaving the Honor/Cultivation mix up as the Old Magic, perhaps, or something else.

 

Just a thought.

That's an interesting idea, though I would probably divide the six up differently personally. I think top 5 surges pure Honor, bottom 5 H+C, top 5 Voids pure Odium, bottom 5 O+C, the top 5 (insert last magic here) pure Cultivation, bottom 5... H+O. Hmm. It seems like neither really divide up nice and neatly while still being consistent with what we know. I'll stick with the original Intent-meshing Theory.

[kaladamSB]

Has the bonding an honorblade fiasco been cleared up yet?

[GreyPilgrim]

To what fiasco do you refer? We do now know that bonding an Honorblade grants one Surgebinding, the Surges of the Order to which the Herald who owned the Blade belonged. Is that what you meant?

[Argent]

To what fiasco do you refer? We do now know that bonding an Honorblade grants one Surgebinding, the Surges of the Order to which the Herald who owned the Blade belonged. Is that what you meant?

 

Brandon said that people can't bond with Honorblades, yet Szeth's ability to summon and dismiss his (Jezrien's) obviously suggested some kind of bond. I think a couple of people asked for clarification on this, but I don't remember the exact explanation...

[kaladamSB]

Argent is correct. That is the fiasco of which I was referring.

In the WoB compiled thread beside the exact comment it says it has been cleared up. If anyone could help thatd be great. Cant even find the thread about it anymore

[Arceoxys]

Is there a WoB saying that the Heralds are tortured by Odium? What is the arrangement, and why are they tortured by Odium? Are they released to face the desolations, and then "strung up" again?

[Moogle]

Is there a WoB saying that the Heralds are tortured by Odium? What is the arrangement, and why are they tortured by Odium? Are they released to face the desolations, and then "strung up" again?

 

You may find these this WoB interesting:

 

Q:  What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

A:  Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end.

Q:  Oh. So they've got a time limit.

A:  They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

Q:  So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

A:  They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

 

We don't know why they have to be tortured, and it has not been explicitly stated that Odium did it... but we know that "Damnation" has links to Braize, a planet where we know Odium spends most of his time on from another WoB:

 

Brandon Sanderson

Odium's presence is felt on Roshar, but he is on Braize, the 3rd planet in the system.

(source)

 

You might want to read through all the WoR WoBs helpfully compiled here. They're interesting.

 

Edited April 2, 2014 by Moogle

[eyestothesun]

I'm probably misunderstanding something, but iirc, we've seen a shardpool in "Elantris," right? How does a shardpool exist when the shards have been splintered like Devotion and Dominion? And do we know whose shardpool we see in "Elantris?" I'm guessing Devotion.