Nahel Spren Appearance Predictions

[Moogle]

There is something of a pattern to the spren of the Knights Radiant. It's not an exact science, but the spren generally correspond to the Ars Arcanum and Surges of the spren.

 

Windrunners - Literally a combination of Gravity and Pressure (which I prefer to the poorly named Adhesion), the Windrunners have "honorspren", cousins to Windspren. They also are associated with sapphires, and Syl is a nice blue. They fit well with their essence (Zephyr, or 'air').

 

Edgedancers - Related to Growth and Abrasian, Edgedancer's spren are essentially vines which grow around to move (sliding across the ground for the Abrasian Surge?) and are studded with crystals. They don't fit well with the gemstone (diamond), though that it sort of fits with the crystals that grow on them. They don't fit well with their essence, lucentia (which is basically the property of shining).

 

Truthwatchers - Well, their spren are literally a combination of Growth and Illumination. They're... well, they're growing light.

 

The spren had been coming more often lately—specks of light, like those from a piece of crystal suspended in a sunbeam . He did not know its type, as he had never seen one like it before. It moved across the surface of the workbench, slinking closer. When it stopped, light crept upward from it, like small plants growing or climbing from their burrows . When it moved again, those withdrew.

 

The spren doesn't fit the essence of pulp, though they do vaguely fit the Soulcasting property of "plants, woods, moss". Nor do they fit emeralds.

 

(Note here that the Truthwatchers and the Edgedancers seem to be completely swapped in the Ars Arcanum. One wonders if it's a typo. Wyndle would do well representing emeralds and pulp, and Ym's spren would do well representing diamonds and lucentia.)

 

Lightweavers - Well, they are a combination of Illumination and Transformation... and Pattern is transforming light. (More appropriately, Illumination has to do with waveforms, and Pattern is more a waveform than light.)

 

They do not fit garnet (though Pattern glows garnet in Blade form), and do not fit blood.

 

Elsecallers - A combination of Transformation and Transportation, their spren appears to be made of oil and can shift appearance (?). Ivory appeared as a gentleman on Jasnah's hand when Shallan caught sight of him. Transportation might be more appropriately termed 'Movement', though Ivory doesn't seem to encapsulate this part of his Surge very well. Perhaps it has to do with liquids sort of encapsulating motion - when I think of movement, the first thing that comes to mind is waves.

 

They fit zircon very well (zircon is a dark gem, and they're made of oil and thus dark), and they fit the essence of tallow (oil for Soulcasting properties) quite well.

 

Bondsmiths - A combination of Pressure (well, Adhesion, but my feelings on that name should be clear) and Tension, the Stormfather encapsulates Pressure quite well (personifying a storm), but Tension not so much.

 

Doesn't match up with sinew/meats/flesh for essence/Soulcasting property, and doesn't match up with heliodors at all.

 

 

As you can see from the above, the spren (generally, the Stormfather is unique and I swear the Edgedancers/Truthwatchers are wrong) fit up with their entry in the Ars Arcanum quite well.

 

From this, we should be able to predict the spren for the remaining Orders.

 

Also, we know from WoB that the "cometspren" were important to an order of the Knights Radiant. Description:

Eshonai waved her hand as she climbed the central spire of Narak, trying to shoo away the tiny spren. It danced around her head, shedding rings of light from its cometlike form. Horrid thing. Why would it not leave her alone?

 

Matching this up with an order should be fun.

 

So, we need guesses for the following orders:

• Skybreakers
• Dustbringers
• Willshapers
• Stonewards

I'd like guesses from everyone, but here's mine:

 

Skybreakers: The cometspren. Comets encapsulate ideas of gravity and division quite nicely. They fly, and they burn up in the atmosphere, evoking a sort of feeling of division/destruction. Not to mention, the name "Skybreakers" fits well with having a comet for a spren. Comets tend to be made of darker stones and metals, which could fit with smokestone, though matching up their essence of vapor and Soulcasting property of smoke is more difficult. Because comets burn up in the atmosphere, we can get a link to smoke, but I suspect this part just plain doesn't work.

 

Also, Jasnah visits the 'highspren' for information, and it is a common theory that the Skybreakers did not break their oaths like the rest of the Radiants. Because of this, the Skybreaker spren would be the best-informed group (as the majority of their population did not die, and they also gained memories and experience by being amongst humans). Syl also says something like "what do you think I am, a highspren? I don't care about laws, I care about what is right!"

 

Highspren is a suggestive name for cometspren.

 

Dustbringers: They have Division and Abrasian, so their spren should be sliding across the ground like Wyndle, and also evoke some sort of feeling of breaking up, breaking something, fading away, or burning. Something like that. I also suspect that their spren will be related to the flamespren like honorspren are related to windspren, so we could probably use that as a base. My vision is of a rolling ball of fire, or perhaps a moving crack in the ground forming a face like Wyndle.

 

Willshapers: They have Cohesion (ability to 'morph' material, like sinking your hand into a solid metal block and having it act like wet cement) and Transportation. Their spren should morph, or evoke motion of some sort, be made of metal, or be purple/related to amethyst somehow. My vision is of a spren which appears by morphing the environment around it. Imagine a face popping up out of the ground, or a page on your book scrunching up into a face and talking at you. Could also be some sort of morphing robot or something.

 

Stonewards: They have Cohesion and Tension, and the essence of stone. I'd expect a morphing stone thing which basically changes shape like Syl but made of stone.

 

I'm mainly interested in other people's ideas! Seeing how people connection the gems/essence/Surges of the various orders to guess at a spren type would be very interesting to me.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Moogle

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

On the Truthwatcher/Edgedancer swap, I would say this: we know the Ars Arcanum are in world creations by a group of Worldhoppers. These people are not all knowing, so there can be mistakes made. Especially given that they are putting together a table of associations from groups who haven't been around for hundreds to thousands of years, and those that came after actively changed the histories to reflect better upon themselves... so getting at the "truth" of the associations 100% accurate is going to be nearly impossible. 

 

I agree they are swapped, and I think that is an on purpose in world "mistake" on Brandon's part to help confuse us the readers and our knowledge for time being. it could just be that the Herald and associative KR order is swapped on the chart but the rest are in the correct order too. 

 

I mentioned in the Adolin thread. The comet spren could go either way for me between Skybreakers and Dustbringers thematically. Both have division which I associate with the breaking and dust bringing of the two orders and is very appropriate for a meteor hitting ground. it will probably end up being a Highspren (Skybreaker) and therefore, Eshonai is probably going to end up being a Skybreaker if she does become a Radiant given the one floating around her. 

 

I like the idea of Dustbringer spren related to flamespren. I wonder if all of them ultimately have an associative "base" spren as well? I would almost expect based on Surges alone that the base Spren for Tension/Cohesion would be something watery, but that doesn't fit Stonewards very well, even their essence is Talus, which is best described as "a slope of stone, either natural or man made"

[maxal]

I like the ideas that have been brought up here.

 

Dustbringers: I have been seeing them as flamespren for quite some time... Like a morphing ball of fire leaving a trail of fire behind itself as it moves and having the ability to shape itself into a human form... Much like a Syl made of fire, but fiercer with an arrogant streak.

 

Stonewards: I have always imagined them like a walking rock creature... like a Troll of something. Very massive. Very tanky. Very calm, but terrible when angry.

 

I love the idea of the Willshaper spren being made of morphing liquid metal... It does make sense as well, but I am stuck on the Eshonai case... If this theory is right and the comet-like spren is related to the Skybreakers, then how to explain the interest of a Highspren into Eshonai? Can someone come up with one argument other than her spren's appearance as to how she could possibly fit within this order?

 

Now, just to throw a curve ball... I recall reading a WoB where someone ask Brandon what shape the Dustbringer's spren had. The question got a RAFO... Now why? I have figured the person wanted to find out if the comet spren was related to the Dustbringers. In this case, does RAFO means yes or no? Food for thoughts, but I still do not like the idea of Eshonai as a Dustbringer.

[Moogle]

I love the idea of the Willshaper spren being made of morphing liquid metal... It does make sense as well, but I am stuck on the Eshonai case... If this theory is right and the comet-like spren is related to the Skybreakers, then how to explain the interest of a Highspren into Eshonai? Can someone come up with one argument other than her spren's appearance as to how she could possibly fit within this order?

 

Not to be a broken record, but I have been campaigning for quite some time for the theory that the cometspren Eshonai sees is her own Shardblade. I'm not convinced Eshonai is in the process of bonding a spren yet (that'd be saved for book 4).

 

It's possible the Skybreaker spren=cometspren theory is wrong, though.

[maxal]

Not to be a broken record, but I have been campaigning for quite some time for the theory that the cometspren Eshonai sees is her own Shardblade. I'm not convinced Eshonai is in the process of bonding a spren yet (that'd be saved for book 4).

 

It's possible the Skybreaker spren=cometspren theory is wrong, though.

 

I recall reading your theory. I had issues with it as it implies Eshonai's dead spren blade is able to change from blade shape to spren shape. It defies the concept of it being dead and it contradicts Brandon's WoB stating how difficult it is to bring back a dead spren.

Edited October 8, 2014 by maxal

[Moogle]

I recall reading your theory. I had issues with it as it implies Eshonai's dead spren blade is able to change from blade shape to spren shape. It defies the concept of it being dead and it contradicts Brandon's WoB stating how difficult it is to bring back a dead spren.

 

So... what happens when a Shardblade turns to mist, then? When Syl isn't a Shardblade, she's a free-floating spren. Why would this be different for dead spren? I'm not sure why you couldn't have dead zombie spren floating around, trailing after those bonded to Shardblades.

 

As for it being "difficult" to bring back a dead spren, Kaladin merely touches a dead spren and it starts screaming about how someone killed it. They're not dead in the sense of being dead, they've just had the majority of their consciousness ripped out... which fits Eshonai's spren, which does nothing indicating intelligence. It just dances around her head and shoots out of her chest.

[maxal]

So... what happens when a Shardblade turns to mist, then? When Syl isn't a Shardblade, she's a free-floating spren. Why would this be different for dead spren? I'm not sure why you couldn't have dead zombie spren floating around, trailing after those bonded to Shardblades.

 

As for it being "difficult" to bring back a dead spren, Kaladin merely touches a dead spren and it starts screaming about how someone killed it. They're not dead in the sense of being dead, they've just had the majority of their consciousness ripped out... which fits Eshonai's spren, which does nothing indicating intelligence. It just dances around her head and shoots out of her chest.

 

So you think each shardbearer has a dead zombie spren trailing after them? Creepy

 

I agree they are not completely dead, if they were, we wouldn't not be talking about bringing one back to life    However, Eshonai's spren behavior is so awkward... Dead blades, once bonded, do not have enough conscience to break the bond with their holder or to flee from them... The gem seems to be giving them a link to the physical realm which they seem to be craving on. Perhaps they want to have a conscience so they attached themselves to this tenuous bond and answer to it, but in the process are being made to remember the betrayal, hence the crazy screaming.

 

My theory is that if a blade holder bears the good attributes and exhibits the right behavior, they can deepen this bond and give the blade a sense of something else then this betrayal and pain. With time and care, the spren may manage to see beyond that and slowly come back to itself... but the holder needs to be a proto-radiant. I wouldn't expect a regular dead blade to behave in the way Eshonai's spren behaves, except maybe Adolin's

 

And if your theory is right and that dead blades creep around blade holders , then how come Eshonai senses hers? Sees hers? They are invisible. Live sprens do not see them, they just sense them....

[Moogle]

So you think each shardbearer has a dead zombie spren trailing after them? Creepy

 

Very creepy, but I don't see any other explanations. (And maybe the spren don't follow them around, they just sort of hover in the person's chest?) Shardblades go somewhere when they turn to mist, and I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for live and dead ones.

 

And if your theory is right and that dead blades creep around blade holders , then how come Eshonai senses hers? Sees hers? They are invisible. Live sprens do not see them, they just sense them....

 

Eshonai has two things going for her:

• She's got hugely magnified levels of Odium's Investiture in her. This may or may not grant her the ability to sense other Investiture more easily (Zahel can sense Syl even though she's invisible, Rock can see spren that are trying to hide).
• Honor and Odium's Investiture reacts violently (highstorm vs everstorm), which could cause the spren in her to try and flee now that Eshonai has heightened levels of it. Syl becomes feral at the mention of Odium, so even a spren with most of its conscious ripped out can react instinctually to the presence of Odium and try to run/stay away (though they're still forcibly bonded, so they can't go far... which is kind of sad, now I think on it).

A sad issue is that she sees the spren after bonding a possibly-dangerous spren in a highstorm, which is when she'd could attract a Nahel spren (since that would be her attributes manifesting clearly, and other listeners noticing). In my her-spren-is-her-Blade theory, this is when she gains Odium's Investiture. We can't differentiate which theory is true because the timing is the same in both.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Moogle

[Bloodfalcon]

When I go from Reddit to 17S, good topics like this are a breath of fresh air. 

I gave up on trying to figure these out a long time ago after noticing so many details didn't really fit the table of Orders correctly. My last hope was that maybe the lines connecting all of the surges and Orders could be either unscrambled or very specific links to similar spren/properties. Especially after looking at the alternate chart (called Voidbinding chart a year ago at least...) it just seemed like the physical descriptions of the spren fit the symbols so well but they were in the wrong places... 

I've been out of the game for a while now though, haha..

[Jaaxter]

With regard to Eshonai's comet-spren, I had always assumed that it was a Willshaper spren. My reasoning for this is not based on the spren's appearance but on Eshonai's personality. She is an avid explorer who hates leading troops and just wants to do her Star Trek thing- explore strange new worlds, meet strange new peoples, and draw her maps. Doesn't her mother ramble about how she used to disappear for days at a time, exploring? I don't have a source within easy reach, but I think Eshonai fits the psychological profile of a Willshaper much better than a Dustbringer or Skybreaker.

[Aleksiel]

Regarding the Lightweaver-blood relations, I think it's worth noting Shallan soulcasted that bowl into blood without thinking about it, so may be it's just transforming something into blood is the easiest option. I like the swapped Edgedancers-Truthwatchers essence and soulcasting properties. 

 

I imagine the Stoneward spren (tension and cohesion) to be a cousin to riverspren because of the surges and to appear to be a ball of liquid, though this has nothing to do with stones. 

 

The comet like spren fits what is reasonable to expect a highspren to look like, however if Skybreakers didn't break their oaths, then how come  Eshonai has a highspren for a Blade? 

[maxal]

Very creepy, but I don't see any other explanations. (And maybe the spren don't follow them around, they just sort of hover in the person's chest?) Shardblades go somewhere when they turn to mist, and I don't see why it wouldn't be the same for live and dead ones.

 

 

Eshonai has two things going for her:

• She's got hugely magnified levels of Odium's Investiture in her. This may or may not grant her the ability to sense other Investiture more easily (Zahel can sense Syl even though she's invisible, Rock can see spren that are trying to hide).
• Honor and Odium's Investiture reacts violently (highstorm vs everstorm), which could cause the spren in her to try and flee now that Eshonai has heightened levels of it. Syl becomes feral at the mention of Odium, so even a spren with most of its conscious ripped out can react instinctually to the presence of Odium and try to run/stay away (though they're still forcibly bonded, so they can't go far... which is kind of sad, now I think on it).

A sad issue is that she sees the spren after bonding a possibly-dangerous spren in a highstorm, which is when she'd could attract a Nahel spren (since that would be her attributes manifesting clearly, and other listeners noticing). In my her-spren-is-her-Blade theory, this is when she gains Odium's Investiture. We can't differentiate which theory is true because the timing is the same in both.

 

There is also another issue with the Eshonai fleeing away dead blade theory... She uses her blade after this event, during the fight, on the plateau... She fights Adolin with her shardblade... If it had flown away, then how come it came back?

[Moogle]

The comet like spren fits what is reasonable to expect a highspren to look like, however if Skybreakers didn't break their oaths, then how come  Eshonai has a highspren for a Blade? 

 

Maybe some Skybreakers did break their oaths, but the majority didn't. The epigraphs say "nine out of ten", though they're super unclear. This is a good point against the theory.

 

There is also another issue with the Eshonai fleeing away dead blade theory... She uses her blade after this event, during the fight, on the plateau... She fights Adolin with her shardblade... If it had flown away, then how come it came back?

 

I'm not saying it flew away, I'm saying it tried to once or twice. The gemstone on the Blade has forcibly bound the spren to her, so it can't do that. Eshonai is constantly irritated at the cometspren because it won't leave her alone.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

Maybe some Skybreakers did break their oaths, but the majority didn't. The epigraphs say "nine out of ten", though they're super unclear. This is a good point against the theory.

 

 

I'm not saying it flew away, I'm saying it tried to once or twice. The gemstone on the Blade has forcibly bound the spren to her, so it can't do that. Eshonai is constantly irritated at the cometspren because it won't leave her alone.

 

Don't we have evidence the Stonewards are the ones that did not break their oaths? We don't know if it is the Skybreakers... sure the organization still exist, but they are surgeless, so I am not convinced it is them.

 

Stop trying to convince me with this theory of yours I am starting to think you may be onto something... :ph34r: Brandon did say that spren was order related... we just don't know which one. I LOVE the idea of Szeth being a red hearing.

[Savanorn]

Don't we have evidence the Stonewards are the ones that did not break their oaths? We don't know if it is the Skybreakers... sure the organization still exist, but they are surgeless, so I am not convinced it is them.

 

Stop trying to convince me with this theory of yours I am starting to think you may be onto something... :ph34r: Brandon did say that spren was order related... we just don't know which one. I LOVE the idea of Szeth being a red hearing.

 

Not quite, in Dalinar's vision of the Recreance we see Windrunners and Stonewards break their oaths, so there's no much room for doubt that they broke their oaths, only the other eight orders. 

[Maverick]

Hey just wanted to know the opinions of you guys as to the possibility of such a thing as a Darkspren being bound to one of the Orders

[dants]

Well, maybe the Comet spren is some sort of Voidbinding spren? Like if the Stormspren she bonded with wasn't exactly the Nahel bond for Voidbringers?