Has Nalan been using Szeth from the start?

[sun tzaro]

I thought of this while reading this topic, but I felt that what I was going to write diverged a little too much from what was being discussed. 

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/18012-the-heirs-feasting-companions/

 

Be warned - some leaps in logic inbound. 

 

 

 

 

“She’s getting worse,” the voice continued. “We weren’t supposed to get worse. Am I getting worse? I think I feel worse.”

“Shut up.”

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—”

The two passed through the intersection ahead of Jasnah. They were the ambassadors from the West, including the Azish man with the white birthmark on his cheek. Or was it a scar? The shorter of the two men—he could have been Alethi—cut off when he noticed Jasnah. He let out a squeak, then hurried on his way.

 

This scene is from the prologue of WoR. In it, Nalan and another man - possibly a herald, as a poster in the other topic suggested - are conversing.

 

"That creature carries my lord's own Blade" clearly refers to Szeth.

 

"We shouldn't have let him keep it" strongly suggests that Nalan and the other man were, in part, responsible for Szeth's possession of an Honorblade.

 

"What we've done was wrong" certainly could refer to the assassination of Gavilar - assassination is a dishonorable deed, certainly something that Jezrien would frown upon, and the other man seems to respect and defer to Jezrien. Considering that deposing Gavilar, who wanted to return the Voidbringers, would fit in with the motivations of at least Nalan, I think it is very likely that Nalan and the other man were complicit in the assassination of Gavilar.

 

 

Still kneeling, Szeth looked up after the man. "My people have the other Honorblades, and have kept them safe for millennia. If I am to bring judgment to them, I will face enemies with Shards and with power."

 

This passage is from Szeth's discussion with Nalan, after being revived. 

 

The Shin have been responsible for the Honorblades for a very long time.

 

They would not give Szeth an Honorblade, and then also give up all control of Szeth.

 

This leaves room for two possibilities: either Szeth's oathstone was taken from the Shin, or the Shin have made certain that Szeth's oathstone, while out of their possession, was very carefully tracked by a very capable agent.

 

Either way, all signs point to Nalan.

 

From earlier in their conversation:

 

 

"I recognize you, " Szeth realized. "I've seen you somewhere before."

 

Now, Szeth could be saying this could be because Nalan is a Herald - and the Heralds are worshipped. But consider how no one recognized Taln - that is, besides Amaram, who was privy to secret knowledge as a member of the Sons of Honor. Very few accurate depictions of the Heralds, as they were, seem to exist - and 4,500 years have passed since then.

 

 

"You spend this long obeying the precepts of your people and religion, yet you fail to recognize one of your gods?"... (skipped a bit)

  ...That crescent... He recognized it, didn't he?

"You, Szeth," the man said, "worship order, do you not You follow the laws of your society to perfection. This attracted me, though I worry that emotion has clouded your ability to discern. Your ability to... judge."

    Judgement.

"Nin," he whispered. "The one they call Nalan, or Nale, here. Herald of Justice."

 

It seems to me that Szeth only recognizes Nalan as a Herald of Justice, because Nalan himself implies that he is a god, and then refers to the ideals of justice. 

 

I think Szeth recognizes Nalan because he has seen him before - in Shinovar, perhaps even before he became Truthless. 

 

Now, it appears that Nalan has been involved with Szeth since the beginning - or at least since before Gavilar's death, two years after he became truthless. 

 

But, in recruiting Szeth, has Nalan just made use of a conveniently available tool? Or has he been grooming Szeth from the beginning?

 

In a way, Szeth is the ideal Skybreaker.

 

 

"I saved him," Lift said. "I did something good, didn't I?"

"Goodness is irrelevant," Darkness said. His shardblade dropped into his fingers.

 

The Skybreakers don't believe in the notion of "good" and "evil". They believe in the law, and they believe in justice.

 

Szeth has been doing what he thought was "good" - what he thought was the right thing - by acting as Truthless. He hated killing. He hated himself. But he stayed true to his people, because he believed it was the honorable thing to do. And now, Nalan has a pawn that is thoroughly disillusioned with the notion of "goodness" and honor. 

 

And what is that pawn wielding? A sword that doesn't know what "evil" is. 

 

 

Now, the last part of this post contains a lot of reaching, and it certainly has the most holes. I personally think it's plausible, though.

 

The final piece of the puzzle is the question of why Nalan wants to "bring justice" to the Shin elders. Just "bringing justice" is most likely not his motive, since Nalan's selective pursuit of criminals has shown that he certainly has an ulterior agenda.

 

First, the missing Shardblade. The Shin have seven, Szeth has one, Taln has one, and there is one unaccounted for.

 

Now, if the Shin were trying to create an assassin, what would be the optimal Honorblade to give said assassin? While all of the surges are no doubt strong in their own right, three Honorblades come to mind as being strongest in the hands of one meant to kill a target and then get out.  

 

The Honorblade that corresponds to the Lightweavers. Illumination requires great artistic skill, and Soulcasting requires significant resources, so this one would have been out of the question for Szeth.

 

The Honorblade that corresponds to the Windrunners. Of course, this is the one Szeth actually uses, and it works well. Gravitation makes an assassin nigh impossible to catch. Adhesion is less potent in combat...

 

...so what about the other Honorblade that uses Gravitation? The one that is tied to a far more destructive Surge than Adhesion - the Surge of Division. The Honorblade of the Skybreakers. Surely an assassin with this tool would be unstoppable? Why would the Shin not give this Honorblade to Szeth?

 

The answer is that the Shin no longer have this Honorblade. Nalan has it.

 

And, this is another assumption, but I find it unlikely that a Herald would be in need of more than one Honorblade - so Nalan should be content to allow the other Honorblades to remain unused in the possession of the Shin. And anyhow, considering that he was able to acquire his own, he shouldn't have had any significant problems in acquiring the rest of them if he wanted to - especially since it appears that normal men cannot use Honorblades to the full extent of their power.  

 

So, if not for justice, and if not for the Honorblades, why would Nalan send Szeth after the Shin?

 

It's because this is the final part of molding Szeth, a sort of extreme, ultimate test.

 

Nalan wants to create a Skybreaker who shows no prejudice, even in dealing with his own people. He wants to create the perfect embodiment of justice. Batman.

 

 

So? Wildly improbably? Connecting dots that aren't there? Plausible? Was there something I missed? Discussion time!

Edited September 30, 2014 by sun tzaro

[controlsdragon]

You are neglecting two things mentioned in WoK in your initial theory, it is specified that the stone shamans knew of the blade and would retrieve it when Szeth died, and that the Shin want the truthless out of their country as quickly as possible (the farmer in the Interlude had sold Szeth).  Szeth was intentionally sent out into the world with an honorblade, obeying anyone who had his oathstone.

[Zea mays]

Page 945 of my copy of WoR, epigraph for chapter 78:

A but they were left behind it is obvious from the nature of the bond but where where where Set off obvious realization like a pricity [?] They are with the Shin We must find one Can we make to use a Truthless Can we craft weapon

From tge Diagram, Floorboard 17:paragraph 2.

every second letter starting with the first.

~~~~

This implies ol' Vargo was always to blame for Szeth's travails. But who sez Nalan wasn't involved? He's been watching it all for quite a while.

What did he do that his friend regrets? Sell Szeth to the Parshendi maybe?

Edited September 30, 2014 by Zea mays

[controlsdragon]

Taravangian did not go see the Nightwatcher until after Galivar's death.

 

 

Q:  Did Taravangian go to see the Nightwatcher before or after Gavilar's assassination?
A:  Um, oh man. I'm going to have to look at my timeline. I believe it's before, but I can't guarantee I'm right, because these things are all happening around the same time.
Q:  Because he says that Gavilar confided in him the night of.
A:  Ooooh, you're right. Nope, it's after. It is after. You can send that question to Peter so we can confirm it. There might be something I'm forgetting about Taravangian.

From http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/7267-words-of-brandon-compiled-x-2/?p=119916

 

This shows that Taravangian did not make Szeth into Truthless.

[Moogle]

Nice post.

 

"That creature carries my lord's own Blade" clearly refers to Szeth.

 

"We shouldn't have let him keep it" strongly suggests that Nalan and the other man were, in part, responsible for Szeth's possession of an Honorblade.

 

Uh, I'd interpret it as the exact opposite: they did nothing to give Szeth the Blade, found out he had it, and then they decided to let him keep it.

 

---

 

The Shin have been responsible for the Honorblades for a very long time.
 
They would not give Szeth an Honorblade, and then also give up all control of Szeth.
 
This leaves room for two possibilities: either Szeth's oathstone was taken from the Shin, or the Shin have made certain that Szeth's oathstone, while out of their possession, was very carefully tracked by a very capable agent.

 
controlsdragons has always brought up this point, but the Stone Shamans are definitely able and willing to take the Honorblade from whoever killed Szeth:

He was required to carry the Blade until his death, after which Shin Stone Shamans would recover it from whomever had killed him.

 
In order to do this, they have to know where Szeth was when he died. I think it is completely reasonable to expect them to be tracking Szeth, so I fall firmly into that camp.
 
Now, the leap to saying Nalan is their agent is tricky. Nalan and his friend at Gavilar's death had to find out Szeth had an Honorblade somehow, and them having connections to the Shin is an elegant solution to that problem. I'm not sure how they could do it otherwise, honestly.

 

Szeth was made Truthless via Taravangian, or so the Diagram heavily implies. WoB is that the Diagram was written only after Gavilar's death, though. I sent a PM to Peter to confirm this one either way.

Q:  Did Taravangian go to see the Nightwatcher before or after Gavilar's assassination?
A:  Um, oh man. I'm going to have to look at my timeline. I believe it's before, but I can't guarantee I'm right, because these things are all happening around the same time.
Q:  Because he says that Gavilar confided in him the night of.
A:  Ooooh, you're right. Nope, it's after. It is after. You can send that question to Peter so we can confirm it. There might be something I'm forgetting about Taravangian.
(source)

 

It's possible that Nalan was spying on Taravangian and figured out where Szeth was from him his efforts to create one (if he was, the WoB is unclear imo), or some other weird situation.

 

---

 

The final piece of the puzzle is the question of why Nalan wants to "bring justice" to the Shin elders. Just "bringing justice" is most likely not his motive, since Nalan's selective pursuit of criminals has shown that he certainly has an ulterior agenda.

 

The Desolation's started. He can no longer stop that, and actively killing Surgebinders now would be counterproductive. I think there's a good chance that Nalan is now going after the "big crime bosses" like Lift said he should if he cared about justice. The Shin leaders certainly sound like they qualify...

 

---

 

I think Szeth recognizes Nalan because he has seen him before - in Shinovar, perhaps even before he became Truthless. 

 

Now, it appears that Nalan has been involved with Szeth since the beginning - or at least since before Gavilar's death, two years after he became truthless.

 

Szeth sees Nalan during Gavilar's feast:

Szeth stood and began to pick his way through the room. The revelry had lasted long; even the king had retired hours ago. But many still celebrated. As he walked, Szeth was forced to step around Dalinar Kholin—the king’s own brother—who slumped drunken at a small table. The aging but powerfully built man kept waving away those who tried to encourage him to bed. Where was Jasnah, the king’s daughter? Elhokar, the king’s son and heir, sat at the high table, ruling the feast in his father’s absence. He was in conversation with two men, a dark-skinned Azish man who had an odd patch of pale skin on his cheek and a thinner, Alethi-looking man who kept glancing over his shoulder.

 

The heir’s feasting companions were unimportant. Szeth stayed far from the heir, skirting the sides of the room, passing the drummers. Musicspren zipped through the air around them, the tiny spirits taking the form of spinning translucent ribbons. As Szeth passed the drummers, they noted him. They would withdraw soon, along with all of the other Parshendi.

 

I find it highly unlikely he saw him in Shinovar. The Shin are decidedly xenophobic, Nalan looks decidedly un-Shin, and would have stuck in Szeth's memories if he was in Shinovar. It's most likely Szeth says he recognizes him because he saw him here.

 

---

 

Now, if the Shin were trying to create an assassin, what would be the optimal Honorblade to give said assassin? While all of the surges are no doubt strong in their own right, three Honorblades come to mind as being strongest in the hands of one meant to kill a target and then get out.

 

We have no evidence that the Shin were trying to create an assassin, and if they were the Elsecaller Blade stands out as being the most obviously useful, or the Truthwatcher one (turn invisible, kill target, walk out whistling). We also know next to nothing of how well the other Surges are used in battle (I am excited to see the Dustbringers, honestly - the kind of damage they can inflict would also make them good assassins, possibly). You dismiss the Elsecaller Blade as requiring too many resources, but why would the Shin ever care about that? Szeth would just find his way into the hands of an employer with deep pockets, and they'd provide the spheres for him.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Moogle

[Stormwalker]

First, the missing Shardblade. The Shin have seven, Szeth has one, Taln has one, and there is one unaccounted for.

 

Now, if the Shin were trying to create an assassin, what would be the optimal Honorblade to give said assassin? While all of the surges are no doubt strong in their own right, three Honorblades come to mind as being strongest in the hands of one meant to kill a target and then get out.  

 

...

 

...so what about the other Honorblade that uses Gravitation? The one that is tied to a far more destructive Surge than Adhesion - the Surge of Division. The Honorblade of the Skybreakers. Surely an assassin with this tool would be unstoppable? Why would the Shin not give this Honorblade to Szeth?

 

The answer is that the Shin no longer have this Honorblade. Nalan has it.

 

 

I believe WoB is that one of the heralds went back for their honorblade (which would be the missing one), although for the life of me I can't figure out where it is. I agree that it is probably Nale that has it, and it is probably his own that he took.

 

 

This leaves room for two possibilities: either Szeth's oathstone was taken from the Shin, or the Shin have made certain that Szeth's oathstone, while out of their possession, was very carefully tracked by a very capable agent.

 

Either way, all signs point to Nalan.

 

If Nale is supposed to be carefully tracking Szeth, then he doesn't seem to be doing a good job of it. We've seen him in Azir (Lift's interlude) and Iri (Ym's interlude) doing his own mission of hunting surgebinders, during which Szeth was probably on the other side of the continent (probably somewhere between taravangian and the shattered plains).

 

 

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—”

 

I agree with Moogle here: 'let him keep it' implies that Szeth already had it before the two heralds met him, not that they had anything to do with giving it to him. However, the fact that it is said in past tense instead of present (compare 'we shouldn't let him keep it') seems (at least to me) to imply that the decision goes back further than just this feast. Moreover, from context, the thing that they did that 'was wrong' seems to be about Szeth and the blade, so it certainly seems like they did have something to do with the assassination. This would also fit with the idea of Nale trying to stop a desolation and Gavilar possibly trying to start one.

[hoser]

Some relevant facts:

1. In the Skyfall vision, the Radiants popped in on rural Natanatan from Alethkar within an hour or so of the midnight essence showing up.
2. When stormriding, Kaladin can sense Szeth's use of investiture and witnesses him at work.

So the use and products of investiture may well be detectable by skilled practitioners.  Nalan may be able to find Szeth whenever he wants without following him around.  This could also explain how he decided to go after Ym and Lift.   

 

It is unclear to me how the parshendi got access to Szeth and had faith that he would be able to complete the assassination.  Nalan could easily have been involved with connecting Szeth to the parshendi. 

[kaellok]

I agree with Moogle here: 'let him keep it' implies that Szeth already had it before the two heralds met him, not that they had anything to do with giving it to him. However, the fact that it is said in past tense instead of present (compare 'we shouldn't let him keep it') seems (at least to me) to imply that the decision goes back further than just this feast. Moreover, from context, the thing that they did that 'was wrong' seems to be about Szeth and the blade, so it certainly seems like they did have something to do with the assassination. This would also fit with the idea of Nale trying to stop a desolation and Gavilar possibly trying to start one.

I think that you are spot on that the two people talking earlier had a chance to take the Blade from Szeth, or stop him, or something, but deliberately chose not to do so.  We don't know how far in the past this was; it may have been a day prior when they first met the Parshendi and their attendant.  This does not seem to me to indicate that they played a hand in making sure he got the weapon.  However, I abundantly disagree with your second-last sentence; the quote "What we did was wrong" is clearly about letting Szeth keep the blade. 

 

 

“I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it. He—”

The absolute most that their involvement in the assassination seems to be is a complete and utter noninterference.  What we have seen so far really doesn't seem to support more than that (and it's a little bit of a stretch to assume they even had that much involvement.) 

 

Further, to the main point, Gavilar wasn't trying to cause a Desolation, so much as he wanted the Heralds to return--and believed that only a Desolation would do that.  Nalan could have solved that problem with one sit-down conversation, without having to rely upon subterfuge, murder, sneakery, plots, counterplots, hidden societies, and a dedicated team of minions to carry out his vigilante justice upon the world.

[Patrick Star]

[Lumen]

Further, to the main point, Gavilar wasn't trying to cause a Desolation, so much as he wanted the Heralds to return--and believed that only a Desolation would do that.  Nalan could have solved that problem with one sit-down conversation, without having to rely upon subterfuge, murder, sneakery, plots, counterplots, hidden societies, and a dedicated team of minions to carry out his vigilante justice upon the world.

 

Gavilar was seeing visions from the Stormfather -- meaning he was a proto-radiant.  Since he had read the book (had it read to him, that is) it is likely he was a radiant w/ the first oath at least.    So I don't think it would be surprising to discover Nalan may have helped orchestrate his demise. 

[Patrick Star]

No, Gavilar was almost definitely trying to start a desolation.

 

He thought that it would reestablish the supremacy of the Vorin church.

[PeterAhlstrom]

My response to this topic:

 

Hmmmmmmm.

[sun tzaro]

My response to this topic:

 

Hmmmmmmm.

 

How cryptic! I assume this response mostly has to do with the biggest point of confusion - is Taravingian responsible for the Szeth being made into a Truthless? 

 

Apparently, during the day of the Diagram, Mr. T decided he needed a Truthless... but Szeth had been around for two years prior. So, was Szeth a tool that Mr. T thought he would have to create, but ended up not having to? Can Mr. T affect time travel?

 

 

I'm responding to posts in down-to-up order, because it's easier for me. 

 

 

The absolute most that their involvement in the assassination seems to be is a complete and utter noninterference.  What we have seen so far really doesn't seem to support more than that (and it's a little bit of a stretch to assume they even had that much involvement.) 

 

For figures as powerful as the heralds, even noninterference is significant. Either they approved of the assassination through inaction, or they didn't think Gavilar was important enough to act over.

 

 

 

If Nale is supposed to be carefully tracking Szeth, then he doesn't seem to be doing a good job of it. We've seen him in Azir (Lift's interlude) and Iri (Ym's interlude) doing his own mission of hunting surgebinders, during which Szeth was probably on the other side of the continent (probably somewhere between taravangian and the shattered plains).

 

This doesn't bother me so much - Nalan has agents of his own, which we saw when he was chasing Lift. Azir is pretty far away, but I don't think mobility is an issue for Nalan - he was able to travel across the shattered plains to get exactly where he needed to be at exactly the right time, which implies that he is either a very fast traveler, or he has amazing powers of foresight (which would resolve the problem of keeping tabs on Szeth in its own way). 

 

 

 

We have no evidence that the Shin were trying to create an assassin, and if they were the Elsecaller Blade stands out as being the most obviously useful, or the Truthwatcher one (turn invisible, kill target, walk out whistling). We also know next to nothing of how well the other Surges are used in battle (I am excited to see the Dustbringers, honestly - the kind of damage they can inflict would also make them good assassins, possibly). You dismiss the Elsecaller Blade as requiring too many resources, but why would the Shin ever care about that? Szeth would just find his way into the hands of an employer with deep pockets, and they'd provide the spheres for him.

 

You're certainly right - we know very little about the other surges. But from what we do know, I don't think that the Elsecaller blade or the Truthwatcher blade would be effective tools of assassination.

 

I assume that to use the surge of illumination, whether you're a Truthwatcher or a Lightweaver, you'd need artistic skills on the level of Shallan's - which Szeth doesn't seem to have, and I would also assume that invisibility would be a very difficult trick to master. From what we've seen so far, Honorblades give to normal humans powers equivalent to that of a second Oath KR - and Shallan's second Oath (or Truth, rather), is nowhere near giving her the capability of turning invisible. 

 

As for Elsecallers, I see two problems - Soulcasting is an expensive art, one that does not allow for much in the way of improvisation. We know that KR's use less Stormlight than Honorblade users, and Jasnah needed three fairly large gemstones to take on three meager criminals. Szeth would need an incredible amount of gemstones to take on a contingent of soldiers and a shardplate user. The surge of transportation also seems problematic - Jasnah summons a ring of light when she arrives, and her arrival isn't instant. That's plenty of time for the king to disappear - and while some might not know how to react, a king like Gavilar might know exactly what the ring of light implies. 

 

 

 

Szeth sees Nalan during Gavilar's feast:

 

 

Yeah, that discredits part of this theory pretty strongly. I always thought that the only time we saw Nalan at the feast was when Jasnah encountered him - I forgot about the passage we get from Szeth's perspective.

 

 

 

The Desolation's started. He can no longer stop that, and actively killing Surgebinders now would be counterproductive. I think there's a good chance that Nalan is now going after the "big crime bosses" like Lift said he should if he cared about justice. The Shin leaders certainly sound like they qualify...

 

 

I still find it strange that Nalan is going after the Shin. Szeth has personal motives - he was wronged. But as Szeth himself acknowledges, the Shin are generally a rather peaceful people. Are they crime bosses? Their crimes would have to be very significant to justify going after them, considering the tools at their disposal. Although, in that, I'm contradicting myself - if Nalan has his own Honorblade, then I don't think he'd have any trouble at all. Which brings me back to part of this theory that I believe in strongly - I think that bringing justice to the Shin is a task done more for Szeth's sake than for Nalan's. 

 

I don't think that the crime of making Szeth Truthless would be all that significant in Nalan's eyes - the Shin didn't seem to want to acknowledge the return of the Desolations, and Nalan didn't seem to want to either. So I think Nalan must have some ulterior motive here.

 

You are neglecting two things mentioned in WoK in your initial theory, it is specified that the stone shamans knew of the blade and would retrieve it when Szeth died, and that the Shin want the truthless out of their country as quickly as possible (the farmer in the Interlude had sold Szeth).  Szeth was intentionally sent out into the world with an honorblade, obeying anyone who had his oathstone.

 

 You're right - the Shin and the Stone Shamans must be more capable than I thought. However xenophobic they may be, though, I cannot accept that they would give Szeth a weapon of incredible power that they had safekept for years without monitoring it's usage. They'd have to be incredibly dismissive of anything that happens outside of Shinovar to go that far. I think they must have an agent on the outside - if not Nalan, then perhaps a Stone Shaman - though we've never seen one of these, so I'm inclined to think that Szeth's watcher is a character we've encountered already. 

Edited October 1, 2014 by sun tzaro

[kaellok]

Gavilar was seeing visions from the Stormfather -- meaning he was a proto-radiant.  Since he had read the book (had it read to him, that is) it is likely he was a radiant w/ the first oath at least.    So I don't think it would be surprising to discover Nalan may have helped orchestrate his demise. 

Gavilar was seeing visions, presumably from the Stormfather.  Possibly from Odium.  Maybe some other source entirely.  For some reason I find it incredibly unlikely that the Stormfather would Bond with someone who is working to bring about a Desolation (which his actions seemed to support, although for specific reasons that weren't, themselves, necessarily evil.)  Nalan would only have had some involvement if he had any clue what Gavilar was about, though; and I still say that since Gavilar and Amaram wanted a return of the Desolation so that there would be Heralds and a return to power of Vorinism that Nalan and co. could have solved that whole problem by revealing themselves. 

 

 

For figures as powerful as the heralds, even noninterference is significant. Either they approved of the assassination through inaction, or they didn't think Gavilar was important enough to act over.

Because the Heralds are supposed to not interfere, according to an agreement they made between themselves when they broke the Oathpact, I don't think that inaction in general is significant.  That would imply a level of significance to an increasingly large number of events, which have nothing to do with anything, and should apply separately to each of the nine Heralds that remained on Roshar.  ie, if Nalan acts but Jezrien does not, there is a different meaning versus both of them acting versus both them remaining inactive versus Jezrien acting and Nalan remaining inactive. 

 

I realize that this argument is pedantic on my part, since a good argument can be made that in this specific incident action or inaction is significant, but that's the way I am (and I freely acknowledge that you make a good point with their inaction being at least interesting, if not significant.)

 

And now I realize that I'm not adding much to anything at this point, I think.  If we ever find out how Szeth's Oathstone came to be possessed by the Parshendi, I think we'll be incredibly close to laying this to rest one way or the other (even without any other additional information).

[Moogle]

I still find it strange that Nalan is going after the Shin. Szeth has personal motives - he was wronged. But as Szeth himself acknowledges, the Shin are generally a rather peaceful people. Are they crime bosses? Their crimes would have to be very significant to justify going after them, considering the tools at their disposal. Although, in that, I'm contradicting myself - if Nalan has his own Honorblade, then I don't think he'd have any trouble at all. Which brings me back to part of this theory that I believe in strongly - I think that bringing justice to the Shin is a task done more for Szeth's sake than for Nalan's. 

 

I don't think that the crime of making Szeth Truthless would be all that significant in Nalan's eyes - the Shin didn't seem to want to acknowledge the return of the Desolations, and Nalan didn't seem to want to either. So I think Nalan must have some ulterior motive here.

 

The Stone Shamans might be abusing their power, if they knew what Szeth was saying was the truth and called him a liar anyways, and they lead an entire country. By sending Szeth out with an Honorblade, they are somewhat responsible for all the chaos he's created. As lawbreakers go, they're pretty far up the list of people you'd think Nalan would go after if he abandoned attempts to kill Surgebinders.

 

Though, he's not gone after Taravangian, so I suppose there's that to consider. What Taravangian did may not be illegal, however. He's king, so he can sort of change laws on a whim and pardon himself at any time.

 

Nalan's views on the Stone Shamans is a bit weird, though:

 

 

“You were banished by petty men with no vision. I will teach you the path of one uncorrupted by sentiment. You will bring this back to your people, and you will carry with you justice for the leaders of the Shin.”

 

It does make me think Nalan might be doing it to train Szeth, as opposed to genuinely trying to bring justice (though that's an added bonus for him, I'm sure).

 

Another thing to consider: Nalan might have actually been going after lawbreakers all this time, except that he uses the Skybreakers to handle that while he handles the more dangerous cases (Surgebinders). His words to lift don't quite rule out this possibility.

[Lumen]

Gavilar was seeing visions, presumably from the Stormfather.  Possibly from Odium.  Maybe some other source entirely.  For some reason I find it incredibly unlikely that the Stormfather would Bond with someone who is working to bring about a Desolation. 

 

I think Gavilar had a change of heart, and was at odds with the Sons of Honor.  Which is why he gave Szeth the sphere.  The Parshendi thought he wanted to bring back the old gods.  But I wonder whether there may have been a misunderstanding at the end.  No doubt he originally was aligned with the Sons of Honor.  But I don't think he was at the end.  In fact, didn't he consider that they may have been behind his assassination?  

[smokeesid]

We have no evidence that the Shin were trying to create an assassin, and if they were the Elsecaller Blade stands out as being the most obviously useful, or the Truthwatcher one (turn invisible, kill target, walk out whistling). We also know next to nothing of how well the other Surges are used in battle (I am excited to see the Dustbringers, honestly - the kind of damage they can inflict would also make them good assassins, possibly). You dismiss the Elsecaller Blade as requiring too many resources, but why would the Shin ever care about that? Szeth would just find his way into the hands of an employer with deep pockets, and they'd provide the spheres for him.

 

I tried searching the forum but I was unable to find the place where the abilities of Truthwatcher is inferred. So could you give me the link or the title of the thread?

[Moogle]

I tried searching the forum but I was unable to find the place where the abilities of Truthwatcher is inferred. So could you give me the link or the title of the thread?

 

Their location on the Surgebinding chart has been figured out, and we know the Radiants each share a Surge with the order next to them. Here's the chart:

 

Truthwatchers get Illumination (what Shallan uses to Lightweave) and Progression (what Lift uses to heal and grow vines).

 

To be clear, I don't fully expect the Truthwatchers can turn invisible. However, Nalan has no problems turning into darkness with his fabrial, nor does Shallan have issues with the same trick. It should be possible to be perfectly stealthy with the Blade, infiltrating and getting out, without too much issue. I also don't expect we've seen what Illumination is fully capable of; I'm still expecting laser beams, frankly.

 

I doubt Truthwatchers have to draw things to use Illumination. I suspect that's a limitation unique to Shallan, who refuses to face her past.

“This is silly,” Shallan said softly, Stormlight trailing from her lips. She did a quick sketch of herself with dark hair. “What does it matter if I draw it first or not? The pencils don’t even show color.”

“It shouldn’t matter,” Pattern said. “But it matters to you. I do not know why.”

Edited October 2, 2014 by Moogle

[Newan]

Honorblades.  

 

I believe that part of Szeth's punishment was to be a weapon.  If the honorblade they gave him could be used productively and charitably, it wouldn't have been much of a punishment.  This cancels out progression (healing the sick) and transformation (soulcasting food for the hungry).  

 

This eliminates the Elsecaller, Lightweaver, Truthwatcher, and Edgedancer blades.  

Edited October 3, 2014 by New One

[Moogle]

Honorblades.  

 

I believe that part of Szeth's punishment was to be a weapon.  If the honorblade they gave him could be used productively and charitably, it wouldn't have been much of a punishment.  This cancels out progression (healing the sick) and transformation (soulcasting food for the hungry).  

 

This eliminates the Elsecaller, Lightweaver, Truthwatcher, and Edgedancer blades.  

 

Gravity can be used to construct buildings, Adhesion can help during surgery (Kaladin complains that he can't keep a vein closed at one point), Gravity can provide faster travel than a horse/chull... I'm sure I could think of plenty of productive uses for the Windrunner Honorblade.

 

I suspect that the reason an Honorblade was given to Szeth was because it's still the ultimate weapon, though. In Shin culture, apparently if you pick up a weapon you are doomed to be a warrior/guard and part of the lowest caste. By giving Szeth not just a weapon, but one of the most powerful weapons ever, they make a powerful statement, and say that he is the lowest of the low.

[Moogle]

Peter Ahlstrom got back to me about the WoB on when Taravangian meets the Nightwatcher, and he says:

 

As far as I can tell from what the book says, he went to the Nightwatcher after the assassination.

 

So... the Diagram talking about making a Truthless doesn't make a whole lot more sense.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Moogle