Mark - 28/09/2014 - Equo Trilogy Part 1: Aldo, Prologue & Chapter 1 (L) (V)

[Mark]

Many thanks to anyone who decides to critique, I really appreciate it!

[jParker]

Welcome Mark. Glad you're here.

 

I should probably start with things that worked for me. I loved the idea of the prologue and the introduction of the setting, very old-world mythic, maybe a reworking of Theseus. Creatures and stories that haven't been told in a hot minute. I also like the idea of Julia, of a female character who is actually superior to the male protagonist.

 

However, there's a lot of opportunities for improvement. While reading, the male novelist joke was always in my head. (If you're unfamiliar with this, please look it up. It's hilarious and also deals with a lot of cliches in male-written fiction.) We've got a generic Mary Sue protagonist--strong in every way, control over himself and his environment who will always win out the day, with no character flaws to speak of--and a "strong" female lead. I use quotations because while she's physically stronger, Julia still falls into that pit of a woman needs a man, despite all appearances. Every scene is so stinted and void of drama that I am unable to empathize with a character--in fact, I go the opposite direction and begin deriding the work, just because it's been done so much.

 

Note: There is a substantive market in popular fiction for this kind of work. If you want to write that kind of story, that is A-okay. I personally subscribe to a more genre-oriented, post-feminist approach and so that's going to be the tone of my commentary.

 

Similarly, the prose is drier than the Mojave. Your penchant for substituting for third-person pronouns for actual names, for using the passive tense (e.g. "she moved fast but he was expecting it this time" for both offenses) is a really good way to disengage the reader. Again, this is one of those things that won't necessarily kill your work--Herbert also had dry prose and he seems to have done okay--but it makes it a lot harder for a work to shine.

 

Throw in the fact that the magic system comes in as a deus ex machina--absolutely no foreshadowing, violating two of Sanderson's laws--and...well, if I had gotten this book at the library, it would be sitting in a drop-box.

 

I realize that this is a huge wall of criticism and one of my personal pet peeves is critiquing without direct suggestions for improvement, something that is discouraged here. If you would like this (which seems unlikely), feel free to message me. If not, well, no hard feelings. We are not our work, thankfully.

 

Again, welcome. We're glad you're here.

[Mark]

Thanks for the critique, I appreciate it. Don't worry about it all being negative, I can take it. 

 

I would like to address some of your points, though. Aldo is not a Mary Sue. It might not be evident from the first chapter, but he isn't. I worked very hard to keep him away from being that. He is deeply flawed and, if you haven't noticed yet, a complete prick. He isn't supposed to be likeable, or perfect. 

 

The male novelist jokes I don't think I understand, unfortunately. 

*Edit*: I say I don't understand them because seem to be entirely lacking in humour at best, and downright sexist at worst. But whatever makes you giggle. 

 

Again you leap to conclusions with Julia. Just because she's a female who encounters the male in the first chapter doesn't mean she's his romantic interest, or even a main character. And she definitely doesn't need a man, I don't know why you'd assume that. 

 

The stinted and void of drama part I can't really defend, because I didn't realise it was a problem. You're the first person to say it to me. 

 

And are you saying that names work better than pronouns? I have been told that before, but it's something I struggle with. 

 

You tell me it breaks the Sanderson's Laws, and yet you've seen one instance of it. I do not like writing a wall of text on how a magic system works, it's boring. I will introduce details gradually, of course. I've read his laws and I agree entirely with them. I have an entire magic system set up that goes back hundreds of in-novel years, and ties in closely with the story. This includes limitations, I might add. 

 

I do appreciate you commenting here, but it seems like you made up your mind about my work the second you saw the intelligent male protagonist, and spent the rest of your time reading it looking for pieces that would enforce your opinion. What part of Julia made you think that she needs a man? That's just downright sexist. This is not some 'perfect young stud saves the princess' story, I never intended for that. I do not want to target that young adult market of teenage guys who just want wish fulfilment. 

 

I think next time when I make a thread I'll specify 'constructive criticism', but thank you all the same. And I would absolutely like any and all suggestions for improving it. 

 

Thanks again. 

Edited September 29, 2014 by Mark

[andyk]

I generally got on with the writing style, and like jParker I liked the mythic element that's in there from the start. I did wonder why you didn't use the word minotaur sooner in the prologue - it would have made it much easier to work out what the creatures looked like and so visualise what was going on. But I liked the use of minotaurs, and that they were made to be sympathetic.

 

The bit from the point of view of the lad who gets killed by the imp didn't really work for me. I was fine with becoming emotionally engaged with a character in the prologue only for them to be written off after a couple of pages, but doing the same thing again a few pages later? As a reader I found that that meant I wasn't given the opportunity to start investing in the characters and their story. Or rather that I started getting invested only to have that investment ripped away, and doing that twice in a row it went from a source of drama to one of vexation.

 

It's not clear to me why Aldo's going in for this Equos competition, what's at stake for him, what's driving him.

 

Like jParker I had some trouble with Julia. I also got the impression that she was pushing for Aldo's attention, and that impression came from the way you had her behave. She pushes very hard to get in his face in the bar for no apparent reason. Without any other explanation it came across to me as some weirdly aggressive flirting, not because I assume that's how people behave but because I couldn't see another explanation. The extent to which you focussed on describing her appearance, more so than with any other character, also led me to the conclusion that Aldo was paying attention to her in that way, and so that she was being set up as a love interest. You've said above that that's not your intention, and that's great, but this is the impression I got from reading the story.

 

There's never any tension in the fights because it's clear Aldo will win. He's confident in that and it's never undermined. He doesn't really seem to be challenged. And like jParker I found the magic rather deus ex machina because we'd had no previous indication that there was combat magic or that Aldo knew magic. I don't want vast swathes of description of how magic systems work - that's some people's bag, it's almost never mine - but without any foreshadowing that this is a possibility this seems to come out of nowhere.

 

I also wasn't convinced by how easily he riled Julia in the fight. She's sold as this extremely competent fighter, and then lets herself get thrown emotionally the moment he says anything. That didn't add up.

 

You've hinted in this first chapter at a wider world of monsters and monster hunters. I'm interested to see more of things like why a monster hunting order is needed, why it's run the way it is, why Aldo wants in, and all sorts of stuff. For me, that's a good sign in a story.

[Lord Juugatsu]

Advanced warning: Wall of text ahead.

Standard Lord Juugatsu disclaimer: The following comments and opinions are based off my thoughts as I read the piece. As the author, you are aware of what you wanted to achieve and where the story will go, so it’s your obligation to decide which feedback is relevant and/or needs to be addressed.

Prologue as I’m reading:

I wasn’t clear what species the characters were in the beginning. Personified horses or centaurs were my first guess. When horns were mentioned, I wasn’t sure if maybe we were talking about devils, then with snouts, I finally got to the picture of minotaur around 400 words in, this was then confirmed around 650 words. I don’t know how it is for other people, but when I read and have the scene in my head, it feels like I stumble when I need to pause and adjust my mental image.

I enjoy the perspective from the hunted point of view of the minotaur really making what may as well be a standard human(?) tradition seem menacing. Without information, I’m guessing humans, but they’re about seven feet tall based on Liorel’s perspective. A ‘tall’ human in my experience is loosely 6 ft (At least, I’m 6’2” and I’m used to at least seeing the top of people’s heads if not over them). That makes me wonder if they might be something other than human.

Prologues always seem like a touchy point, as some people don’t care for them because they aren’t always necessary. When I read them, I usually assume the content within the prologue has to be told at the beginning and that it’s a setup for ‘what kind of story will I be reading’. With that in mind, here I’m reading fantasy because of the minotaurs, but I’m not getting a huge sense of where this story is going very definitively, at least yet. It may follow non-humans or specifically minotaurs, maybe this is something that ends up being flashforward and there are events leading up to this, maybe it’s more of an introduction through an event that shapes something in the future for the daughter (and waiting to make it a flashback doesn’t work for you). These are just things I’m seeing as possibilities, but I really can’t tell at this point.

The scene felt like it had an appropriately desperate tone, even though I didn’t get really invested into the characters.

Continuing onto to chapter 1:

(My lunch break ended so I kind of read this while doing some mildly repetitive work before getting back to it now)

The transitioning had what I typically think of as a ‘close up shot’. We have Diego’s hand on his sword’s grip with no idea of who he is or what he’s up to. That, for me at least, made it feel like a really slow intro and to convert to a cinematic concept, it was like a camera being set really close on a specific thing and waiting a bit before panning out.

I enjoyed the fact you introduced him as a PoV character with a rather abrupt death. As a story consumer, the more likely I am to believe a character /could/ die, the more likely I’m going to be on the edge of my seat when they’re in a situation where it seems like that may be an outcome.

Aldo definitely comes off as a member an elite family, though it wasn’t until his encounter with Julia in the inn that he seemed kind of like a prick. And on that note, her presence just seemed weird to me. She says she wanted to talk to him because he was interesting, but what about him that interested her was never mentioned, and I found her as kind of creepy, but otherwise she seems kind of easygoing, maybe friendly.

I’m jumping a bit here, and I’ll speak more specifically towards other commentary below, but Aldo using magic felt sudden. I wouldn’t go as far as jParker in saying it was necessarily bad deus ex machina, as the presence of magic was made apparent to some extent with presence of summoners summoning imps (prior to that, it may very well have been a world void of magic), but there wasn’t an indication that Aldo had any association to magic prior to him suddenly using it. It was a bit jarring for me in that regard.

Comments on previous commentary:
Different readers will make different conclusions faster or slower than others. I’ll start by saying I can see where jParker’s opinions originated from, but I wouldn’t quite agree and pass judgment yet. As the tournament was for any and everyone interested in making an effort to become a monster hunter, it would make sense there would be major skill discrepancies between those with experience and/or training compared to someone with neither. So I wouldn’t Mary/Marty Sue him yet until see more of the world.

I made the comment above regarding magic and Aldo, but otherwise I’m fine with the sort of signpost of ‘Hey, here’s a bit of magic’ this early on without too much explanation, since I’m imagining it will get explained (you’ve also said so, but even without that, I’d assume it’s something that would get explained one way or another. As long as it doesn’t end up being a surprise problem solver every time something new is introduced about it I’d personally be fine with it, but I will be wary of it after Aldo’s use here.

Towards the later part of chapter one I was seeing more passive voice, but overall I felt there was a good amount of active voice, and had no qualms about it, with the exception of when you summarized the rest of the first day with the use of ‘would say’ in dialogue tags. Can’t say why, but I definitely tripped over that part.

On the note of using third-person pronouns versus actual names, I will stand by jParker on that one. Disclaimer here: I don’t want to write your story, but a very aimed comment is coming up, so I may be overstepping my bounds. I was reading this story as a confined third-person point of view with each character, meaning behind the character’s eyes, seeing what they see, sharing their thoughts only when we’re on their viewpoint, <aimed comment>so it felt very weird to me that we didn’t lead in with their name, but rather left them nameless until the story presented a more-or-less natural point to reveal their names through dialogue or thoughts. </aimed comment> And again, I feel I’m pushing etiquette here, but an alternative to pronouns and actual names is to use descriptive identifiers to two-for-one, adding description when it’s obvious you're referring to Aldo can mix up the narrative from a barrage of pronouns while adding details to the character. Julia calls him ‘Rich boy’ at one point as an example, but you could also do so in the narrative, ‘the frowning would-be apprentice’, ‘young heir to the <blank> family’, or whatever, just for examples. I’ll step back now.

andyk's comment on the PoV characters' deaths actually went the opposite for me. I didn't get particularly attached to either, but my attention from the prologue was elsewhere. I found the first one as part of a prologue I'm still unsure about and the second death as a sort of 'hey, people are gonna die in this story' assertion.

General:
Your description and actions felt very segregated so the pacing and flow for me felt very stop-go-stop-go. I generally read and assume time is passing with each word, sentence, and paragraph that passes. So when there’s no motion (beats) in the scene, I assume there’s no motion for a reason (which in some cases might make sense, if two opponents are staring one another down after an exchange, or someone is scouting out an area, as examples). For me, when actions are paused and a description shows up, it’s a bit jarring.

The lack of connection so far to the prologue by the end of chapter one strikes me oddly. I finished the prologue unsure of its goal was, and that admittedly is making me look now for the ‘why was it there’.

Finally, I’m not entirely sold on the story just yet, but I’m not turned off from it. I’d give it another few chapters to see if I get more invested in the characters, plot, and/or world. I did catch the bit of foreshadowing with Aldo as he had some resonance with the sound or action of Diego’s head getting bashed in. While he’s a bit of a prick, I wouldn’t necessarily say I like or dislike him yet. Julia came off as creepy to me, and not in a scary way, so much as just that awkward, overbearing kid that you’d avoid in school.

If you want me to clarify any of my points further, or provide examples of what I was referring to on a certain point, or anything along those lines, let me know.

Edited September 30, 2014 by Lord Juugatsu

[Mark]

@andyk

 

Okay, I've actually heard that complaint about the minotaurs before, and it falls into the exact same category as the overuse of pronouns. I can see it all in my head as a writer and I consistently forget that the reader does not have my knowledge. I'm going to do my best to fix this in a second draft. More names, less pronouns, and I'll get the word 'minotaur' in there quick. 

 

Okay, the Diego bit was sort of my attempt at breaking a trope, and making fun of it. He was a young, inexperienced orphan who'd watched his parents be killed by monsters, and now he wanted revenge. He enlisted in this tournament with no money or weapons, and was sent out to fight an imp. It's a set up for a standard fantasy story where he turns out to be excellent with the sword, becomes a hero and saves the day. Then he died. It was a minor stab at humour, and a bit of a set up for how dangerous and deadly this world is. I understand your problem with it, however. 

 

And I completely see where you're coming from with Julia. Her bit in the bar where she pushes herself onto him does come off as somewhat creepy/obsessive, but there is actually another reason for it. The next part of the trials is when the contestants fight each other, and Julia found out that she was to fight Aldo, eventually. She was trying to get close to him so he wouldn't want to hurt her. I can absolutely see where you would get that she was a love interest, though. I'll try to remedy that. 

 

Okay, Aldo winning... I did not consider that his cockiness would remove the tension, and then him winning would enforce the idea that he always wins. That might be a problem, thanks for bringing it up. 

 

The magic did come out of nowhere, yes. It was supposed to be a sudden and shocking occurrence. And though I know this sounds like a cop-out, the magic is shrouded in mystery in the world, not many people bar the Equos know details about it. I was trying to mirror this somewhat by keeping the reader in the dark. Seems that didn't work too well, so I'll start brainstorming other ways to work with it. 

 

Julia is an extremely competent fighter, better by far than Aldo. But she does have a temper, and some anger issues. I might have exaggerated it too much, though. Again, thanks for pointing that out. 

 

Thanks for the last bit, I appreciate it. There is a lot more to be revealed, and I look forward to sharing it with Reading Excuses. 

[Mark]

@Lord Juugatsu

 

I'll reiterate what I said to andyk, that's a big mistake of mine and I'm glad you called me out on it. I always forget that the reader can't see what I can. I'll go over that prologue. 

 

I actually like the idea of the standard human being incredibly menacing, but unfortunately this wasn't the case. I'll let you keep reading (if you want to!) to find out more. 

 

I agree, prologues are difficult. Personally, I don't like the Eddings route with walls of text about mystery and lore. I prefer GRRM's route, with a violent chapter that seems disconnected from the main story, but eventually ties in. That's what I was going for here. 

 

Thanks for the bit on Diego, you hit the nail on the head with a lot of what I was going for. 

 

Oh yes, he's privileged as hell. I'm quite tired of the farmboy route, thought I'd mix it up (though this has probably been done hundreds of times before too!)

 

And you're right, it was sudden. I might go back and throw in a hint to it earlier in the chapter. Don't worry about it being a problem solver. I have its rules set out completely, and I do not intend to break them. 

 

The rest of the day part I knew was off, I'll go over it, might even remove it entirely. 

 

I'm going to be honest with you. I wasn't exactly taught about beats and pacing. I'm trying my best to figure these things out on my own, but there are obviously going to be glaring problems. I'll do some research on those things and see if I can fix my mistakes. 

 

Julia being creepy I addressed in my reply to andyk, I hope that clears a few things up. 

 

Thank you very much for the critique, it was really helpful. I hope to hear more from you in the future. 

[Mandamon]

Coming in later here, and I think most things have been covered.

 

Original notes:

 

Giving the heights and weights in the second paragraph, while helping to explain that these are not humans, takes the focus off the urgency of the chase.  Plus it makes me wonder how they have the same measurement system...

 

At the end of page one, Liorel is flipped by a bolt, but she's very large.  I wouldn't think a bolt could move her that much.

 

pg 2:  ok, they're minotaurs.  I was having a hard time figuring out what they were.  My first thought was centaurs.  Although I wonder at them being able to speak, since they have bull heads.

 

I'm wondering what sort of culture this is, where parents teach their children to hunt and kill sentient beings for sport.

 

pg 5: the imp is still in the area, eating its last kill when Aldo shows up.  It's distracted and full.  Diego had to deal with an imp ready to attack and let loose at him.  Seems unfair if this is a trial of strength and ability to choose an apprentice. 

 

This kept my interest, but it was a struggle at times.  Aldo in an unsympathetic character in every possible way--he's rich, spoiled, mean, cruel, and over confidant.  I was at times hoping for a POV from the girl, who I like much better.  I have a feeling you're going to be fighting against readers with this the whole time.

Going with Sanderson's sliders of competence, proactivity, and sympathy, you've got the first two raised high, to some extent.  Aldo is proactive about winning the competition.  He's a competent fighter, and has some sort of surprising magic at hand.  I'm just not sure they're high enough to compensate for him being so unsympathetic (I think this ties in with what andyk is saying about draining tension from the fight with Julia).  But I'm ready to read more and find out...

 

End notes.

 

 

On the subjects raised above, I'll agree that Julia's come-on did strike me a strange, but I was more focused on Aldo being such a jerk about it.  The style is fairly fresh, and it's nice to see different creatures than the normal mythic animal tropes.  I will also agree your writing style is not as active as it could be.  Lots of the description felt dry, and that in turn gave me a even more unsympathetic impression of Aldo.

 

I'm also wondering if the prologue is worth it here.  Aside from giving some insight into the violence of the culture and a tag that we're reading fantasy, I'm not sure what it adds.  Maybe it will tie in later.  I did note you introduce two sympathetic characters, then immediately kill them off.  It's almost too much of an "I'm writing grimdark" hammer to the head.

 

Interested to see what happens next week.

[Mark]

The height part is something I haven't heard before, and definitely makes sense, so I'll have a go at remedying that. I've also gone back and mentioned that they are minotaurs in I believe the second paragraph, though of course I can't change the file you're reading. 

 

And the imp part is unfair, for some reason that didn't occur to me. I'll fix that too. 

 

You're right about Aldo being unsympathetic. I've written him as a prick, but if you manage to stick with him long enough (I hope he isn't so infuriating that this is impossible) that I think you will begin to empathise with him. Julia is definitely the more likeable of the two, I'll give you that!

 

Reading over it, her come-on is very unnatural. I have fixed it, I hope. The passive voice I am also working on. The prologue does eventually tie in, so while it is a bit of a non-subtle 'this is dark!' intro, it isn't completely useless. 

 

Thanks for the critique, really helpful. 

[Ash]

Hey Mark,

 

I noticed that there are quite a few replies, so I'm going to jump in before reading them...mainly so it won't affect what I think (hey I'm malleable!) and so that I won't feel quite so inadequate.  

 

First off, the things I liked

 

I really liked the way that, in the prologue, how you made the victim see comparisons to themselves and their killers, even while the killers were joyfully in the act, while the killers themselves failed completely to see these comparisons...The beasties more human than the humans???  I, for one, can appreciate irony.

 

I liked the action and the fact that I knew what was going on, but still had no idea of the actual events.

 

Dislikes

 

I did not care much for your main character, but I have to believe that is by design.

 

The prose and structure was a bit off putting (space between paragraphs, but not that bad...maybe something to get used to?  Different is not always a bad thing so I would have to read more before I actually made a decision.  Or...did you do it like that just for the submission?  It is easier on the eyes.

 

I know that this is the beginning, so it would be very unfair to start making conclusions. I must say that if I picked this book up, I would be interested enough to keep reading which is a win as far as I'm concerned.  It will be interesting to see where you go with this idea.

[Dysphoric Kitten]

WARNING: this is my traditional review of all my thoughts, in chronological order, unedited. That means that not only is it not really insightful (due to my being new and having virtually no insights about fiction), it may frequently result in walls of text. The upside - you get all the details about how my mind worked while digesting this, which brings you to the root of the issue a bit more directly, I believe.

 

 

 

 

Riders with horses?

 

That name, Liorel, indicaes a fantasy setting? Also, younglings does not feel right.

 

So they are horses? Talking horses? Fantasy it is, I guess... (younglings still feels wrong)

 

Are they Centaurs or limbed horses? (younglings still is askew for me)

 

Ooh, hunting centaurs! That is new! I like it!

 

Okay, the creatures have horns - and are completely unclear to me. For now, they will be blobs of all sorts of animal parts, including a trunk, antennae, and a three pink pinknesses. Might even add a cherub's tiny wings to make them more interesting. But I think then they will just look like mistwraiths...

 

Twang and projectile means either a bow-like weapon, or a clockwork rifle. I'll go with rifle, because Centaurs (and sentient mistwraiths) use bows. Plus, Sander-rifles are cool.

 

The childling thing calls his mother person "Lanna". Interesting, I will remember that it is a sort of more formal relationship, somehow.

 

Also, the Sanderifle did not hurt him. So he has metal skin. I think this is getting out of hand, Mark.

 

"Your lanna" - uncapitalised so lanna is a term, a title. Something parallel to mother, or different but related, then?

 

Okay, no idea what just happened, but they appearantly got hurt or something.

 

"Flying thing" probably means that it was a slower projectile. We see no arrow, so I guess it is a smaller projectile, perhaps a rock with a sling?

 

Also, I take it that there is no iron skin. It still is rather a complicated animal, don't you think?

 

Flipped by the force of the blow - that indicated a high-velocity, high-mass object with a large are of contact. My only guess is a small cannonball. And I am guessing it is still spring-propelled, as no bang has been referred to, only twangs.

 

Okay, children and horror. The typical fun. This gets me glued, but the review has made me doubt that I know what is happening, as every detail makes me scrap previous theories.

 

Also, if these are horse-things, I do not think horses tend to jump...

 

Oh, and you are vegan, right? Because it seems we will witness a slaughterhouse-type horror, of the type that usually veganazis force you to listen to. (note: I do not mean that you are a veganazi, just a real animal activist)

 

Oh, okay... Minotaurs. I am not sure how she threw the kid across her back, as - according to what I know - Minotaurs tend to stand upright. Maybe he was on her shoulder or something... Anyways, yeah. I am not really that smart, sorry.

 

Is the girl a Minotaur rights activist?

 

Oh, right... Aren't Minotaurs normally seven feet tall? I thought they were normally taller than humans - I would give a tall Minotaur eight feet, at least. But that is me, and I am not the author.

 

I really am an idiot. A heavy crossbow makes sense. Also, wow. We men are brutal creatures.

 

 

 

 

Chapter 1

 

Okay, really war type. I have plenty of war at home, which means you have to be very enjoyable for me to read you. Also, he likes his hair.

 

Why is he sweating so much if he has not even drawn his sword yet? Is he that nervous?

 

Shield. I am disappointed. From the leather handle, I was thrown to the katana, which I think is the best sword there is. I have never heard of a katana being used alongside a shield, so I am sorry to say that this is not the legendary Japanese sword.

 

When you mention the heart bursting from his breastplate, you can either tell that (the event) will not be surprising; or you can tell that (the breastplate) is past it's prime. When I read it, it sounded like the heart was past it's prime, with red marring the iron.

 

"was tossed" implies, to me, great force or distance; or ease of the feat. Heaved says it was not easy. So either the imp is small and heavy (and tossable to a distance), or it was not tossed.

_____

 

Is it a boy or a young man? It seems to be a young man, but if so, please don't make the first external impression we have of him be "boy". Say that a bit later.

 

Also, nothing much to say about everything up to the end of the fight, except "if he is so good, why is he so unknown, and why is he gladiatoring against tiny lesser imps?"

 

By the way, the impact and the blood quickly unsharpen swords and knives, I can only guess that it is the same with the spear. I think it is sensible to see him clean the steel as soon as he can.

 

Again, master Lorenzo? He has all this money? And he just gladiators in the same ring as a boy who had never fought anything in his life, not even a tree trunk? Explain.

 

He is young... How young?

 

Cheating. Watching others' technique when you have not shown your own. Especially since you are trying to show us how good he is, and if he is that good, it is just an unfair move.

 

Why are you alluding to Brutus in this world, which is a mash of everything?

 

Oh, right. Women. They were a bit objectified here, but I will let it pass. But really, how young is he?

 

Is this a Batman thing? The servant referring to the rich highly-trained combatant as "young master"? From now on, Brutus will be British in my head.

 

Also, I am betting that he will fight against the blonde and/or she will be his love interest. They will not be just friends, though. That is how literature works these days. Oh right, they are both completely straight, too. Because nobody invented being queer yet.

 

Thank you very much for describing her without lipstick. I respect you a bit more now. Relatedly, thank you for describing mainly her face.

 

So everybody knows he is "Master Lorenzo". Sort of strange.

 

I am all for them not being together, and for them not talking, but why is he so rude that he "pushes past her and shoulders her out of the way"? IS he generally that rude, or does he hate goddesses and people who might be as good as he?

 

Right, because eating with your mouth full is more rude then pushing someone.

 

And the next day, still rude. And seems to not get the fact that he is so.

 

I do not understand your system. Let's say there are seventy contestants and five Equos. We take the contestants and let them compete until only five are left. Then every Equo is allowed to choose an apprentice, but not from the five: they choose from the seventy. What does that ranking give? Why not do it until we have one best fighter, or do it until there are thirty, or until there are forty two, regardless of the number of Equos? Why not eliminate until there are winners double in number than Equos (or triple), then have it strongly suggested that they choose mainly from this (somewhat larger) group, giving a more viable group to choose from?

 

Guarenteed to be chosen? Feels like either cheating or Hubris.

 

How does Aldo know the sixty year old official's sight has not faded at all yet? There is no evidence up until now, and it seems he does not know the official personally. And what are "unhesitating decisions"?

 

A wooden sword filled with lead? To make a blunt, heavy weapon? Why not have a blunted sword, or an unsharpened one?

 

"He came up swinging, the blade going low and catching the brutish boy at the ankles. He fell hard on his back, his sword falling from his fingers."     The second sentence of this sequence is a different "he", which does not work for me. Please explicitly say that it is Gaius.

 

The man is a jerk, too. Kicking sand into the eyes of a fallen opponent, who is not a foe.

 

I think it would be more correct to say "assumed his seat" than "resumed his seat"

 

Interesting fight scene, but I think she was too emotional. He is a filthy cheat, bringing dice to a card game. I would not be surprised if he is disqualified because with a real sword he'd have died, or if someone noticed and it got him into trouble. Additionally, I would much rather have her win.

 

There are a couple typos I did not mention, but can show in the comments you if you publish a Google Doc or something.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Tal Spektor

[Mark]

I'm responding to all the critiques, I'm not sure if this is what I'm supposed to do? I feel like I should address people's points to let them know I'm working on the problems they find? 

 

Anyway, @Ash

 

I'm glad you liked my humanising of the minotaurs. I've always loved the idea of one, and I wanted them to not be raving animals in labyrinths, for a change. 

 

Aldo is not meant to be liked, yet, so yes it is by design. 

 

The space between paragraphs is just a personal preference, and an extension from school where we leave spaces for teachers to right commentary on the essay itself. 

 

Thanks for the critique, Ash. 

[Mark]

@Tal Spektor 

 

I have a google docs file, but unfortunately it is one I've tweaked somewhat since receiving critiques, so things will be different. You can find it here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EAe9oUJyrQQCrfmUg0NGVSKfkYwaRi7ap_Je2J5jpBw/edit

 

I am not actually a vegan, no. Full carnivore over here. But that doesn't stop me from humanising animals in a fantasy setting. And you are absolutely not stupid not to have figured out that they were minotaurs, that was completely my mistake. 

 

Competing in the trials is not something that is forced on people, and it isn't segregated by wealth, gender or ethnicity. It is open to all, hence a spoilt rich boy and a poor farm boy fighting together. 

 

The names are all of Latin origin, hence the bodyguard being named Brutus. It has nothing to do with Caesar, and the same is true of Julia. 

 

Fortunately, you are incorrect on the sexualities front. This is similar to Roman culture, remember, where non-straight sexualities were actually accepted. Neither are straight. Also I don't want to spoil things so I won't talk about Julia and Aldo's relationship, but I wound suggest you keep assumptions based on clichéd fantasy stories to the minimum, as this story will not be following the standard layout. 

 

The logic behind the games is not immediately evident, but it does become clear later on. 

 

I would assume he knew the official's sight was okay as the man did not peer, or require spectacles. 

 

That is a very good point of the wooden sword part, I have corrected that. And yes, Aldo is a complete jerk. 

 

She was too emotional, you are also correct there. I have fixed that mistake too. Also so would I, she undoubtedly deserved it, but life isn't fair in the real world, and it isn't here either. 

 

I would really appreciate you pointing out the typos, thanks!

[Dysphoric Kitten]

It seems that you have corrected the typos by yourself. When I have time, I will try and do a typo witch-hunt using the "comment" feature in Docs.

 

You do mention that it is blunted in the new version, then there are places where it says "wooden" again. In the last paragraph, for example.

 

I saw that you inserted some foreshadowing, but I did not see anywhere that you said he was magic before showing us, much less the limits. I still think that ideally, he loses this match. By the way, when I said I wanted her to win, I meant that I thought it was better for the story, made more sense, and was a better result.

[Mark]

Whoops, I'll go correct those. 

 

As for the magic hint, I'll quote the bit I added. It is easy to miss. 

 

The smallest group was absent from the commotion of the common room. The Equos themselves. Monster hunters and the only magic users. Or so they’d like to think.

 

I didn't want to smack it into the reader's face. 

 

And as for the last point, you of course are entitled to an opinion, but the rest of the story revolves around Aldo winning by using magic, it's quite important. Thank you for the input, though. 

Edited October 1, 2014 by Mark

[CommandanteLemming]

I'm late to the party on this one but at least wanted to say I started it. Only got through the prologue but imagery was vivid and extra points for anyone that uses minotaurs.

Honestly, I had to put it down because the minotaur death scene had a little too much emotional impact. That's nothing against you or your writing, I just don't handle suffering-and-death sequences well because I have difficulty detaching from characters.

But I wanted to let you know I at least took a hack at it - and obviously it's a very interesting world. Good luck with this and I'm interested to see what comes out of this world.

[Robinski]

Welcome to RE, interested to read some new ‘stuff’. Sorry for the delay in responding. I hope these comments are useful. As is my wont, I haven’t reader the thread yet, so forgive me for repetition, but I like to keep a fresh perspective.

(Actually, having just finished reviewing the submission, I find I have 3 pages of comments. Perhaps a bit much for posting on the thread, then again, I’ve just glanced at the other comment and they’re massive, so brace yourself!!!).

Prologue

I realise you need to describe these creatures, but I found the talk about weight distracting. I don’t really know what 450 pounds looks like, as a Brit I think in terms of stones. I think once you’ve described a creature as over seven feet, the reader probably knows it’s going to be pretty hefty.

Who is Lanna? I see it soon after, but I don’t think it’s immediately clear that it’s a pet name for the mother.

“It flowed down her son’s chest, pumping from his chest in spurts.” – Repetition.

My first thought on reading “two thuds” was crossbow blots hitting, either the mother or the two children up the bank. If they have landed, I think it would be a jump rather than a fall.

“...shattered through her memories”

I don’t like the use of “ehm” or other representations of noises. I think it comes over as clumsy, and probably can be avoided in most cases.

I thought the prologue was good, I felt tension and excitement, and was rooting for the centaurs to get away. I liked the style, which I thought was solid and flowed well. There wasn’t a great deal of description, a little more blocking wouldn’t go amiss, but I formed a sketch of the surroundings, a pretty generic forest. I thought the choices that the characters made were plausible, and I felt that I got a sense of them, even from these brief appearances and short sections of dialogue.

Chapter 1

I'm going to mention blocking again. I don’t really have a sense of the surroundings. Is it day or night? Is he in an arena or a dungeon by himself?

I have a problem with the internal dialogue. People don’t think in grammatically correct sentences, and reading thoughts in that way slows the flow. The protagonist is so busy prattling on to himself that the imp has time to up and knock him out. He seems ineffectual and clumsy, but maybe that’s your intention.

I started thinking that this was a mature man then he is described as a boy, then a young man. I felt that my image of him changed each time the combatant was referenced.

I like the description of the brains and the imp eating them – definitely effective.

I was disappointed by how easily Aldo killed the imp, but I would have thought that the people testing him would be too. He kills the imp while it is distracted by the ‘food’, not much of a contest. Also, I don’t think its body can be strewn. To me, strewn relates to a lot of separate things that are scattered, rather than one body.

Point and match is a modern reference, surely, to tennis.

Ah-ha, I must say I thought the same thing as Brutus, that it was a foolish move to through the spear, but we were both proved wrong – fair play.

I think the use of ‘he’ could be clearer. At the foot of Page 6, Brutus nudges “him” then makes a statement, then “He stood and exited...” The last name used before that line was Brutus, so my brain tries to associate “He stood...” with Brutus.

Blocking, you describe Aldo walking past “her”, but I have no sense of where she is standing, is she walking past, standing waiting for him, taking her army off? Where were Aldo and Brutus sitting? You do mention a stand, but was it full of people, was it noisy? I don’t have a sense of whether there was a crowd or not.

“...it takes several hours to return to the estate” feels like maid-and-butler. Brutus knows that, why would Also say it, other than so that the reader can hear it.

The tone of discussion between Aldo and Brutus is interesting. Brutus certainly isn’t very respectful to his master, but that’s okay – it’s still plausible of course.

Where does Brutus get a table – I don’t know where they are.

“few visitors” not little, unless all the visitors are under four foot two :-)

I do enjoy your description of the weapons and equipment, and how there is a wide range of quality, and people have to scrabble to afford to but poor quality stuff. That’s a nice touch of detail.

You mention the queue shortening, but I didn’t know he was in a queue. There was not description of him leaving the arena and arriving at the inn. Sorry to keep banging on about it, but I am struggling with the blocking.

You can’t have more than one majority, so “next biggest majority” doesn’t work, maybe “next biggest contingent”?

Ha-ha, I like the line about her relishing looking down at him.

Isn’t it unusual for lips to be paler than the skin?

The angry stick is a Hulk reference, or that what every reader is going to think – rather out of context, I thought.

“legs of various animals” – LOL

By the time we get to the “guaranteed to be chosen” comment, I am well a truly rooting for someone to dump Aldo on his arse, or perhaps punch him in the face.

The jump to Aldo facing his opponent is very sudden. Also, again, complete absence of blocking at the start of this next scene.

Would a wooden practice sword have a scabbard? Could have I suppose, but I'm just thinking of the logistics.

You mention a shield when you describe the girl’s bout, but I had no sense that Aldo had a shield in his – presumably, he did though.

Aldo’s thoughts about the girl’s victory are confused. I think there is a word missing, or something. His thought about emotions being a sign of weakness is rather stereotyped. Good line from Brutus. I'm growing to enjoy their banter and Brutus’s carefree nature in the face of Aldo’s seriousness and pomposity.

I struggle to believe that two people could be silent in each other’s company for 4 hours.

Is Julia Florence the blonde girl – it’s not stated, but I presume it is. Still, I think it’s unclear and should be confirmed.

“You stay still and you'll stay dead.” – This doesn’t make sense to me. He obviously isn’t dead if he has the option to stay still or not, so he can’t stay dead, because he isn’t dead, by definition. I suppose Brutus could say this, but he struck me as being more intelligent than that, especially if he’s giving Aldo tactical advice / training, so I felt the line was unconvincing.

I do like the interplay between them here. Not convinced by their earlier exchange in the bar, but this exchange is nicely judged.

Whoa, sorry, what? Parma? That’s a city in northern Italy, they have a football team and they make ham.

Okay, I don’t like the magic word “Parma” but the effect was cool. Feels like cheating but, in the end, I was quietly satisfied that Aldo managed to reverse his bad situation (even though he acts like a pompous prat for a lot of the time). But, pulling out of the hat without foreshadowing seems like poor form to me – risky, relying on reader trust before you’ve really established any.)

Overall, I quite enjoyed this, and I'm interested to read more. I find the situation of the testing and competition engaging (young people competing at combat does tend to point towards Hunger Games, but I thought you got away with it), and Aldo is an intriguing if annoying character, but I'm not averse to a negative protagonist. The major problem for me was the blocking. I was never clear what anything looked like, or when there was a transition in location. I think that needs some substantial revision. If it had that, I think the flow would be 20 times better, because I found the basic pacing reasonable.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Robinski

[molah]

Hello Mark,

Sorry for taking so long. It's quite hard for me to find time to read & critique lately. I focused on bigger things and I tried not to be prescriptive.
Here are my thought before reading the other's comments:

Things that worked for me:
* The final fight scene
* The final part of the chase, when the hunters talked, flowed really nicely
* The image of Jorva's blood in the stream was very vivid
* The conversation in the inn flowed nicely
* In general, I thought the writing to be clean and polished
* I'd like to know more about the monter hunting and the conflict between humans and minotaurs

Things that did not work for me:
* The beginning. A chase is very stereotypical and my thought process was like: "Is Liorel a centaur? Oh, not a centaur after all. Were the hooves from the hunter's horses? Centaurs after all? Oh, I see, minotaurs!"
* Similarly, the beginning of chapter 1: Who are we dealing with? I found it very distracting to worry about that. I also wasn't sure whether he was a minotaur or a human..
* You got me invested first in Liorel and her children and then in Diego and then just killed them off. If I hadn't been reading this for critiquing, I would probably have put down the book after Diego's death
* The first part of the scene in the inn felt like a huge info dump. I would have preferred if you had worked it into the story in a more engaging way
* I don't like the protagonist nor do I feel identified with him. He's a rich, overbearing jerk and I'm not emotionally invested into him. I hoped the girl would beat him silly
* A bit nit-picky, but when you suddenly mentioned centimetres and in the next phrase inches again, that really made me stop

General comments:
* Julia seemed a lot more mature and suggestive in her approach to Aldo than I would expect from someone her age. However, that didn't bother me while reading. I only thought of this when going over the other's reviews
* I was surprised the Imp jumped against Diego's shield. I imagined it to be rather small and it would only make sense to jump against a raised shield if you can push your opponent over - which it achieved in the end. Still, the line made me stop


After reading the other's comments:
* I wasn't perturbed by the magic - but Aldo felt like a cheater I assumed you would give us more details on that later on
* I agree that Julia was riled rather easily, especially after appearing so persistent in the inn
* In my case, Diego's death did not set me up to expect sudden deaths of main characters. I started to get invested, but he didn't seem important yet - so I don't expect the same thing to happen to Aldo



A personal recommendation: Your first reply in this thread felt very defensive. The "golden rule" of writing groups: Don't respond. Don't try to explain what your intention was. Instead, take the reactions and draw conclusions from them. If you did not get the reaction you wanted, maybe there is something you should revise. If you explain your intention you won't get the chance to see if you get the reaction you were looking for next time, because everyone already knows what you wanted to achieve.
Of course, you need to find a balance between taking every criticism to heart and knowing what to stick with.
I strongly recommend you check out the Writing Excuses podcasts about Writing Groups


Looking forward to reading more and see how this develops.

Cheers,
Helge

[Robinski]

I'm responding to all the critiques, I'm not sure if this is what I'm supposed to do? I feel like I should address people's points to let them know I'm working on the problems they find? 

 

Respond or not as you like, most people do, as there is usually something to repsond to / clarify and as you say, I think it's only polite to let commenters know that their feedback has resonated and is valuable, as it usually is.

[molah]

I agree with Robinski. I think it is important to thank people for taking the time to read our stories and for giving feedback. Rather, I meant not to talk back, justifying yourself and explaining things. (For the reasons I mentioned)

[Mark]

I see what you mean molah, and I agree completely. I shouldn't have talked back to her, I'll control myself from now on. 

[LerroyJenkins]

alright, a lot of stuff has been covered but there are still some things I think I can contribute here. 

 

Prologue- a lot of people have mentioned the problems they've seen here, but I don't think I saw this; 

 

The prologue is obviously getting us to sympathize with the monsters. I love it, not entirely normal.... but then we see a young guys head get cracked open and brains eaten by a monster in the next page. So who do I cheer for now? Now I don't like people or monsters at all. 

 

Also, deaths seem so common already that I find myself distancing myself from all the characters expecting them to die really really soon. 

 

Your protagonist is unique, but he isn't a protagonist. Having a mean main character is great, but so far he has no motivations, so I find myself wishing I was still in Diego's eyes. He may be cliche but Diego wasn't fighting just because that's what the story demands. 

 

Honestly I like Julia the best. I myself am a very ornery and blunt person, and in writing this also makes for interesting dialogue. I have a suggestion that I'm timid to make because I don't want to push you to make a book for me, if that makes sense;

I think this chapter would be great from Julia's perspective. Highly competitive girl, sees rich kid as threat, sizes him up by trying to unnerve him, notices something strange before Aldo defeats her. Lets you skimp on magic for now while still giving a taste, gives us insight into her motivations in her apparent advances towards Aldo, while still showcasing Aldo as a total jerk. But please, please tell us why whoever you choose as a main character is even fighting

 

with the magic system; when Sanderson first mentions allomancy(with tin I believe) he goes into detail of the draw backs as well as the benefit, ie; kelsier's eyes are hurt by the now intense light from the fire, but he can hear his target much better, plus he uses the phrase "burning", letting us know that something is being lost for the production of the magic. Right now I'm wondering what the magic cost Aldo, and what the draw backs are.

 

ok time for rapid fire small problems;

 

someone mentioned earlier- a real sword would've ended it, meaning at the very least that the higher ups would see Aldo as foolish

 

definitely take the advise of adding names instead of pronouns. I am terrible with grammar(in fact,I'm sure this post is riddled with grammar and spelling errors)  and therefore I try not to make suggestions regarding it. But, I had forgotten Julia's name and for the life of me couldn't find it in your writing, so I searched the posts here.    

 

 

I like the world you've built, some quick tweaks and I'll love the whole thing!

 

P.S. I saw in one of your responses that both Aldo and Julia are gay(which I love in the way that it breaks the theme of every book having one ridiculously strong character that just happens to be a minority). I think the problem you'll find is that homosexual romance will make some people avoid your book with no regard to how brilliant your story telling may be. So if your goal is to get widely published, I would perhaps limit this in someway so that the prude can grit their teeth and read the book for the sake of good writing. But if your goal is to sell to the gay community, then don't sweat it!

[Mark]

Hey Lerroy, thanks for the reply. I'll try to address some of your points, and can hopefully but your mind at ease concerning some of the problems you've pointed out.

 

You're right that there isn't an obvious side with which to empathise with, and it is quite intentional. The story is not black and white, so I want to set the grey tone from the beginning. 

 

While a protagonist is actually just the leading character in a text, I see your point. Unfortunately, if I were inclined to switch main characters, I am about ninety-thousand words too late. Aldo's intentions might not be obvious from the beginning, but personally I prefer a somewhat ambiguous goal than a clichéd one that I've read before. Of course, that's my personal opinion, so I understand if you don't share my view.

 

The magic costs part is another good point, and one that I realise now I haven't addressed early enough. I have ratified it slightly. There are costs to magic, but I just haven't made them immediately obvious. 

 

The grammar I feel I have improved significantly on since I first posted this, but you're right that it needed work. 

 

Now, about your comment on sexual orientations. Neither are straight, but neither are they completely gay. It isn't pivotal to the plot, though. The culture of Novondo (the continent) is heavily influenced by Rome, and the Roman Empire, where bisexuality was actually commonplace. Some people were regarded as strange if they chose not to take on partners of both sexes. It isn't a statement that I'm making, it is simply me being realistic. There are lots of non-straight people in the world, and they are represented fully in my novel. There is not a particularly strong romantic sub-plot, so I don't think the sexual orientations of the characters will be such a big deal that it will break the novel for people. 

 

Again, your criticism is much appreciated, thank you!