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ReaderAt2046

I think I found another Surge!

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Alright, my theory is the Ninth Surge (the one shared by orders Nine and Ten) is Detection, or something similar to that. Points in favor:

1. The Alerter Fabrial, which runs on a heliodor focus.

2. The Stoneward Radiant in the Midnight Essence vision said that she would hear Dalinar if he called (when telling him what to do if the Essence returned).

3. The fact that the Radiants knew to come and kill the Essence in the first place.

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I think you're on the right track here. What if it's Connection? That could also explain spanreeds.

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I think I'll break this down so I can give it a proper reply.

Alright, my theory is the Ninth Surge (the one shared by orders Nine and Ten) is Detection, or something similar to that. Points in favor:

My first quibble. Detection isn't a fundamental force which Brandon says he wanted to base the surges off. In all fairness, Transformation and Travel aren't all that fundamental either, but I think it's because we don't understand them well enough. Is there another way Detection could be phrased, so it's more fundamental? Maybe detecting sound waves?

1. The Alerter Fabrial, which runs on a heliodor focus.

Well, all fabrials can't be surges. What of the pain knife or the fabrial that reads emotions? There are just way too many. I think they're probably all specialized affects of surges though, so it could be one. The way I see it, the type of gen determines the major affect then the cut further specifies what it does. Different gems and cuts could attract different spren as well. It's kind of like Aon modifiers in my opinion. But it's a possibility, I can't count it out.

2. The Stoneward Radiant in the Midnight Essence vision said that she would hear Dalinar if he called (when telling him what to do if the Essence returned).

I just assumed when I read it that she would be keeping her ears open for any calls for aid. She could have meant more, but that's just how I read it, so I could be wrong.

3. The fact that the Radiants knew to come and kill the Essence in the first place.

I have no idea how they knew to come. They're something that we don't understand about the Radiants appearances though. Sure that girl could have teleported but the Windrunner fell out of the sky. I don't think he flew all the the way from Urithiru, so they could have just been in the area.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to shut you down here, I could be completely off base. I'm just trying to get a debate going, because I'm sure you're on to something. I'm virtually certain that all fabrials are tied to a surge in one way or another.

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Proximity. Could explain the Alerter Fabrial. Maybe the spanreeds as well (being "the location of an object in relation to another object").

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I think you're on the right track here. What if it's Connection? That could also explain spanreeds.

If I'm remembering correctly those are made from Rubies, not Heliodor. If I'm right in my thinking then each surge is tied to a gem type, so they wouldn't be manipulating the same surge. But that it's only true if I haven't missed something.

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I think I'll break this down so I can give it a proper reply.

My first quibble. Detection isn't a fundamental force which Brandon says he wanted to base the surges off. In all fairness, Transformation and Travel aren't all that fundamental either, but I think it's because we don't understand them well enough. Is there another way Detection could be phrased, so it's more fundamental? Maybe detecting sound waves?

Well, all fabrials can't be surges. What of the pain knife or the fabrial that reads emotions? There are just way too many. I think they're probably all specialized affects of surges though, so it could be one. The way I see it, the type of gen determines the major affect then the cut further specifies what it does. Different gems and cuts could attract different spren as well. It's kind of like Aon modifiers in my opinion. But it's a possibility, I can't count it out.

I just assumed when I read it that she would be keeping her ears open for any calls for aid. She could have meant more, but that's just how I read it, so I could be wrong.

I have no idea how they knew to come. They're something that we don't understand about the Radiants appearances though. Sure that girl could have teleported but the Windrunner fell out of the sky. I don't think he flew all the the way from Urithiru, so they could have just been in the area.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to shut you down here, I could be completely off base. I'm just trying to get a debate going, because I'm sure you're on to something. I'm virtually certain that all fabrials are tied to a surge in one way or another.

I agree that all fabrials aren't tied to Surges, but the alerter does indicate that the tenth Essence has some connection to detecting things.

As for your points about the Radiants, I don't know how they got there either. But the fact that they knew to come suggests some way of detecting things. And it seems that you'd need some power to hear calls for help from too far off to be seen.

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What about Awareness?

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Nice! Very clear presentation. Nice idea about where to assign the ability. This topic could focus discussion and lead to better understanding.

Another point in favor: If you believe, as I do, that Surges are abilities of spren shared across the Nahel bond, then Syl's detection of the masses of humanity at the Alethi warcamp as they approach is an instance of the spren ability the surge could be based on.

And another one linked to OP point 3: The knights are based in Alethkar to protect everywhere. They have to be relying on a detection ability.

I do wonder about OP point 2: It seems to me that it could be from a Radiant remote communication ability rather than detection.

A minor quibble: I believe there has been previous discussion of this possible surge here, here, here and here.

Edited by hoser
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If Order Ten's vital Body Focus and Essence is Sinew or Flesh, perhaps it could be an ability that detects only living organisms (with flesh?), such as 'life sense' in Warbreaker. Life sense sounds like a fundamental force, and would explain why things like breeze (which trigger sound waves) didn't set it off, while a human approaching did. However, I am skeptical about it encompassing all living things, as the grass growing in the field around the Heliodor in tWoK didn't set it off (however, it might be the Movement of Life that sets it off, not the Presence, especially because that girl was stood next to it the whole time but because she didn't move it didn't trigger?).

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However, I am skeptical about it encompassing all living things, as the grass growing in the field around the Heliodor in tWoK didn't set it off (however, it might be the Movement of Life that sets it off, not the Presence, especially because that girl was stood next to it the whole time but because she didn't move it didn't trigger?).

Three explanations:

1. It only works on sentient life.

2. It only indicates when more life enters the radius (the girl and the grass and such didn't set it off because they were already there when it was set up.)

3. Both 1&2 (most probable.)

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I'd go for 1. Here's a tidbit from an old Q&A

ZAS678

What is the X in Aon Mea? Is it one of the Shard-pools?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Afraid not. Aon Mea references the expanded region within which the "Elantris Effect" will create Elantrians. The X is fertile valley with a high density of life, a place with a lot of cognitive activity. (Cognitive as defined by Realmatic Theory includes the 'thoughts' of all things that exist, not just human beings. The more complex the life form, the stronger its presence on the Cognitive Realm.)

Source

It could be that the Alerter only looks for things that have a significant enough presence on the Cognitive Realm, and it doesn't look at things that was close to it when it was set up.

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^ This would make sense. Measuring Cognitive activity would be a good method, as it would only alert when there was a fluctuation, ie, a new person entering the radius, and only when it has significant Cognitive activity for the Heliodor to pick up on.

The new question: How does the Heliodor channel the Power of Honour (or the Shard that powers Surgebinding) using a trapped Nahel-spren in order to master this power? Some of you may have seen my theory in General Theories where I suggest that Allomancy is less complicated than it seems, and can be explained away using the movement of metals in all compounds, but there seems to be no reasonable explanation for such an ability, other than only sentient beings are capable of honoring promises and oaths, as animals are controlled by instinct (or if Odium is the one in charge of fabrial [?] then only humans can bear intense and irrational hatred [Odium])?

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...

They're something that we don't understand about the Radiants appearances though. Sure that girl could have teleported but the Windrunner fell out of the sky. I don't think he flew all the the way from Urithiru, so they could have just been in the area.

...

Windrunner, thinking your question over led me down a different path on the Radiant appearances.

First, what we know:

  1. The Radiants live across Alethela (not Urithiru). Source: Radiant said so.
  2. The Windrunner arrived by flight and the landing was felt, seen and heard. Source: Dalinar.
  3. The Windrunner arrived first. Source: Dalinar.
  4. The Stoneward arrival was unnoticed. Source: Dalinar.
  5. The Radiants are able to teleport/travel. Source: Brandon S

Deduction: The Stoneward arrived by teleportation/travel.

Problems:

  1. Why did the Stoneward arrive later, when flying should take longer than teleporting?
  2. Wouldn't it take an unreasonably long time to fly continental distances?

Solutions:

  1. The Radiants have fabrials for travel called Oathgates in a spoke arrangement with the hub at Urithiru. Someone detects a voidish presence in Natanatan. The Windrunners and others are called from their bases in Alethela, teleport to Urithiru, then to the nearest Oathgate to the disturbance. The flyers fly the remaining distance to the source of the problem. The next part has three possibilities: either the teleporters don't want to arrive first, they can't arrive as precisely or they need the flying Radiants (presumably two orders) to provide a target. For whatever reason, the Stoneward arrives later.
  2. The Radiants just happened to be nearby, as you suggest.

What do people think?

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Do you have something to back up the Oathgates thing? I think I remember reading the term, but I'm not sure.

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it's in one of the epigraphs as I recall.

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Do you have something to back up the Oathgates thing? I think I remember reading the term, but I'm not sure.

Post #29, by Zas678, should have the quote. Some more of that thread may also be relevant.

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Solutions:

The Radiants have fabrials for travel called Oathgates in a spoke arrangement with the hub at Urithiru. Someone detects a voidish presence in Natanatan. The Windrunners and others are called from their bases in Alethela, teleport to Urithiru, then to the nearest Oathgate to the disturbance. The flyers fly the remaining distance to the source of the problem. The next part has three possibilities: either the teleporters don't want to arrive first, they can't arrive as precisely or they need the flying Radiants (presumably two orders) to provide a target. For whatever reason, the Stoneward arrives later.

The Radiants just happened to be nearby, as you suggest.

What do people think?

The most probable reason that the Traveler arrived second is because the Windrunner lands first, scouts the area, and kills nearby enemies. The Traveler then arrives safe, as presumably, their ability requires time (so as to block over-power).

Another solution, brought up on a different thread, is that Stonewards (if they have the Travel ability) can only transport between stones, and to stones. So she detects a disturbance, and then runs towards a stone, reaches in, teleports, lands, runs to the disturbance. Presumably, they would have squads of people with these abilities in Urithiru on call near stone tablets, and when a disturbance is noticed, they immediately jump on one and vanish.

It should theoretically (as per my thinking on the matter of fabrials) be possible to recreate every single Surge with the fabrial (and thus I deduced, in a different thread, that the emotion and pain reduction, as well as things like the Alerter and the 'strengthening' fabrials used to make Shardbows, must have basis in the original Ten Surges [this is backed up by Brandon S saying there are parallels in the magic systems, such as Emotional Allomancy -> Emotional Surge]). and so there could be fabrials for the other KR that allow them to teleport, again maybe using the stone tablets if stone is necessary for Travel (there must be requirements to prevent OP).

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What if the Stoneward doesn't teleport so much as "fly" through stones. Like burrowing but without making giant mole tracks?

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What if they were travelling thru shadesmar and needed another kr to get there physically and cognitively mark the place, so they knew where to pop out. Possibly because they have stronger presence in cognitive realm which is easier to detect then ppl and stuff, or familiarity, or perhaps it was even a conscious effort, sort of like calling out but without needing the words.

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I think you're on the right track here. What if it's Connection? That could also explain spanreeds.

Spanreeds use Rubies, so that would be the Fourth Surge, not the tenth.

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Has Brandon based this magic system off of quantum mechanics?

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I think the gems that are used in the fabrials, are used for the essence they represent.

In the case of spanreeds, the ruby is cut in half then but into two separate pens. The ruby represents the soul, so think of the ruby as having a soul, so the two halves share a soul, and so are connected. so when one pen moves, so does the other. Think of sympathy from Kingkiller chronicles.

This also makes sense for the regrowth fabrial used by the stoneward in Dalinar's vision. The fabrial has a topaz and a heliodor. The two represent bone and flesh, which is what the body is made of, so it regrows flesh and bone.

The alerter fabrial uses a heliodor as a focus. Since heliodor represents flesh, then it most likely detects flesh like a "life-sense" which was mentioned in the above comments.

Regrowth could be a surge, if the gems in fabrials use some part of a surge. Which would make Regrowth/regeneration a possible shared surge between orders 9 and 10, since it requires a topaz and a heliodor in the fabrial.

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I don't think there are "shared" Surges, rather the effects of two Surges are being used in concert. That is an interesting point about the ruby in the spanreeds. I'm not sure if it is entirely accurate though. The same process applied to an amethyst causes the two halves to do the opposite of what the other is doing. The essence "nails" seems totally unrelated. Am I missing a connection?

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Soulcasting the result of Transformation, and that is a "shared" surge. It might have different limitations and advantages between Shallan's and Jasnah's order though. Shallan noted that Jasnah could Soulcast an object without touching it directly, which Shallan thought was supposed to be impossible.

Stormlight shot from Jasnah’s hand like twin bolts of lightning, symmetrical. One struck each of the footpads and they popped, puffing into smoke. Their empty clothing dropped to the ground. With a sharp snap, the smokestone crystal on Jasnah’s Soulcaster cracked, its light vanishing, leaving her with just the diamond and the ruby.

The remains of the two footpads rose into the air, small billows of greasy vapor. Jasnah opened her eyes, looking eerily calm. She tugged her glove back on—using her safehand to hold it against her stomach and sliding her freehand fingers in. Then she calmly walked back the way they had come. She left the crystal corpse kneeling with hand upraised. Frozen forever.

Shallan pried herself off the wall and hastened after Jasnah, sickened and amazed. Ardents were forbidden to use their Soulcasters on people. They rarely even used them in front of others. And how had Jasnah struck down two men at a distance? From everything Shallan had read—what little there was to find—Soulcasting required physical contact.

It's not that unreasonable to think that Regrowth might be shared between two Orders as well.

I do think some things are limited to one Order though. The Lashings are probably limited to Windrunners, and they seem to mainly be a manipulation of the "Gravity" surge with maybe a bit less of the "Atmospheric Pressure" in there as well.

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I understand the concept of the Shared Surges in the Radiants just fine. I misunderstood what he was saying there. I do not think regrowth is a Surge. It seems much more like Soulcasting, changing air or whatever into bone and flesh. What do you mean by "things"? Specific powers? It's been pretty clear to me from the AA in TWoK that basic and reverse lashings are due to gravity, and full are due to pressure. Nothing I've seen changes that opinion. I think we've yet to see the effects of the Windrunners's, for lack of a better term, combo-power, invoking both Surges to do something. Maybe it's the riding of the storms.

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