Similarities Between Worlds

[Moogle]

Also, I didn't think any power was lost with Feruchemy. Example: You could get 4x speed for 10s or 2x speed for 20s. What you put in the metal mind is what you got back, only you could control if it was all at once or in smaller burst.

 

It doesn't work that way. You get diminishing returns the more you draw on a metalmind at once. WoB:

sporkify (18 October 2008)

And this is more towards the whole physics stuff, but is Feruchemy really balanced? If it gives diminishing returns, wouldn't this end up as a net loss of power?

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)

It doesn't diminish. Or, well, it does—but only if you compound it. You get 1 for 1 back, but compounding the power requires an expenditure of the power itself. For instance, if you are weak for one hour, you can gain the lost strength for one hour. But that's not really that much strength. After all, you probably weren't as weak as zero people during that time. So if you want to be as strong as two men, you couldn't do it for a full hour. You'd have to spend some energy to compound, then spend the compounded energy itself.

In more mathematical terms, let's say you spend one hour at 50% strength. You could then spend one hour at 150% strength, or perhaps 25 min at 200% strength, or maybe 10min at 250% strength. Each increment is harder, and therefore 'strains' you more and burns your energy more quickly. And since most Feruchemists don't store at 50% strength, but instead at something like 80% strength (it feels like much more when they do it, but you can't really push the body to that much forced weakness without risking death) you can burn through a few day's strength in a very short time if you aren't careful.

Footnote

When Brandon says "compounding" here, he is speaking in a purely Feruchemical sense.

 

As to the focus of Roshar (foci seem to be planet-based, not system-based), I'd guess that it's bonds. A bond to a Seon would grant powers, for example (by WoB), and bonding an Honorblade gets you powers. Bonding with another person gives you powers too, depending on the person (squires). This works well with Syl being an honorspren and bonding things. She explains it best:

“I bind things, Kaladin,” she said, turning and meeting his eyes. “I am honorspren. Spirit of oaths. Of promises. And of nobility.”

 

Assuming she's representative of Honor, Honor's Investing of Roshar would definitely support the idea that the focus is (in part) bonding things.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Incheoul]

Edit: Nevermind I get what you were saying but I feel like almost any power could cause strain or use some form of energy whether its thinking or doing whatever.  Kaladin feels exhausted after using lots of stormlight, not sure I'd say energy is a fuel source for surgebinding but I guess it could technically be one.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Incheoul

[Moogle]

"Fuel", like metals being consumed, or color used up, certainly doesn't seem to be a universal trait of all manifestations of Investiture. Anything on Sel seems to not require it, Feruchemy doesn't seem to require it (though the diminishing returns seem suggestive, perhaps), Hemalurgy doesn't seem to require it.

 

My best guess on it is that the use of a fuel is required when you want to force Investiture to move. Preservation's Investiture is content to be where it is, so you need to burn metal to force it to come to you. Breath is similarly content to stick to lifeforms, and you need to give it some oomph via color to move it. Stormlight likes its gems, it doesn't want to be away from the gem, so you need to consume heat to give it the power to move. (Similarly, once you've got it, it's loathe to leave you, so you need to spend heat to Lash things.) I'd be curious if Shallan putting Stormlight into gems like she did at the end of WoR created any frost.

 

When we look at Sel, we find that the Dor has a strong 'pressure', and Raoden describes it as a giant force seeking to push its way through him. No need to force it to move, you just have to open the floodgates as it were. Hemalurgy breaks off a piece of your soul (which is Investiture), and then that piece seemingly wants something to stick to so it heads into your spike. No need to force that.

 

Feruchemy is a bit wonky and doesn't really fit, but it doesn't store external Investiture, it stores your own. Perhaps there's no cost to moving that, because it's like you're a mini-Shard and can do what you want with your own Investiture. Hemalurgy might also fall under this banner, since it steals "innate" Investiture, but I'm satisfied with my explanation of it above.

 

A big reason I like this model is that it sort of fits in with thermodynamics. If you want to move heat which is in equilibrium, you need to spend energy. If you want to pump some water that's at the bottom of a barrel to somewhere above it, you need to spend energy on the pump. But on the other hand, you can just let water find its way to ground without spending energy (obvious analogy to the Dor). Burning metals and consuming heat may be a similar sort of thing.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Moogle

[Incheoul]

I think there was a WoB saying the frost from surge binding was due to compression of the three realms.

Also allomancy can also be done by using mist requiring no metal at all so I guess there are ways to circumvent certain requirements of a magic system.

[Fallen Rope]

I like the pressure idea, it explains why using the mist directly needs no metals, once the power is in your body it wants to leave so you don't need any metals. Feruchemys diminishing returns might be because using power normally is how fast the power naturally flows, when you draw extra you use the investiture as a fuel to push more through. This could mean that more powerful Feruchemists lose less from drawing extra as well as being able to store more, since the feruchemical "pipes" are wider.

 

The compression of the three realms could be what a fuel always does, it compresses the realms to give investiture a path to flow through when it doesn't have one. Metals could compress the realms to give access to filtered mists.

 

Dakor might not be end negative, it could just be that since the users body is the focus (because of the bones) drawing enough power to teleport vaporises the host, this would mean that the dor is always end positive.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Fallen Rope

[Kurkistan]

I think there was a WoB saying the frost from surge binding was due to compression of the three realms.

Also allomancy can also be done by using mist requiring no metal at all so I guess there are ways to circumvent certain requirements of a magic system.

 

On the ball, I see: that WoB's less than a week old.

 

Source:

 

Ashiok: after Kaladin speaks the third oath, whenever he lands, he puffs out Stormlight in the shape of glyphs. Is this the nature of surgebinding, or just Syl?

A: what's going on with the KR is the compacting of the Three Realms a bit. Reaching the realms and pulling them together a slight bit. What you see happen is thougts and spirit and physical affecting each other a bit more.

 

But as you can see that's not exactly what it says.

Edited October 15, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Incheoul]

Oh so that was in reference to the glyph not the frost. My bad. I couldn't remember where or what exactly it was that I read.