Moiraine (spoilers)

[Anarkitty]

I've only read the last three books of WoT once each, so perhaps I missed something. After Moiraine was lost and before she was rescued, several references were made to Rand's success depending on her being with him at Tarmon Gai'don. So I went into the last book expecting something out of the ordinary from Moiraine, something that had to come from her, a role which couldn't be handled by any other character. 

 

And... there was nothing. I waited for it through the whole book, but I never saw an answer. I listened to it on audio rather than reading it since they delayed the ebook editions, so it's possible that I missed something because of that. Did I miss an explanation?

[Moogle]

She keeps the peace between Rand and Egwene, saving everyone.

 

Yeah, it was underwhelming.

[fievelgoespostal]

Agreed.

 

But the scene of her returning and Rand falling to his knees was as good a scene as there is in the series.

[Gamma Fiend]

Wasn't Moraine also in the cave with Rand and Nynavene as Rand 'battled' it out with Moridin? So when Moridin picked up Callandor, he was able to be taken control of by Nynavene and Moraine in a circle, who were then able to bring Rand into the Circle, so he could weave all three of Saidin, Saidar, and The True Power together to make a new Seal.

At least, that's how I interpreted things going down. I'm not too sure though.

[Anarkitty]

"Underwhelming" is a good word for it.  No wonder I missed it. Thanks for the answer. 

 

Fievel, I agree, and I was glad to see her return.

 

Gamma, she was in the cave, but that's one of the things that any Aes Sedai could have done. It didn't HAVE to be Moiraine. One could argue that it was best that it was Moiraine and Nynaeve, but the reality is that other options were available. Every time the story returned to the cave, I waited for Moiraine to do her big Only-Moiraine-Will-Do scene.

[kaladamSB]

I always felt Moiraine had to be there because she was one of the few Aes Sedai Rand trusted. Even after he becomes super Rand, Rand would still want two Aes Sedai he trusted with him at the last battle. Nynaeve and Moiraine were the obvious choices. It's not like he would take Cadsuane.

[Anarkitty]

I always felt Moiraine had to be there because she was one of the few Aes Sedai Rand trusted. Even after he becomes super Rand, Rand would still want two Aes Sedai he trusted with him at the last battle. Nynaeve and Moiraine were the obvious choices. It's not like he would take Cadsuane.

 

Technically, it needed to be a wielder of the one power, not necessarily an Aes Sedai. Egwene, Elayne, or Aviendha could have filled that role if Moiraine had not been there. I agree that Moiraine is the obvious choice, but she wasn't the ONLY choice, if you see what I mean.

[Voidus]

Not Egwene, she would have argued with Rand about how best to make the seal and ignore him in the end anyway.
(I'm not Egwene's biggest fan)

[kaladamSB]

Technically, it needed to be a wielder of the one power, not necessarily an Aes Sedai. Egwene, Elayne, or Aviendha could have filled that role if Moiraine had not been there. I agree that Moiraine is the obvious choice, but she wasn't the ONLY choice, if you see what I mean.

The only other channellers that I feel Rand would have wanted with him would be

Avi - Lacks knowledge with channelling

Elayne - Needed to lead the armies

Egwene - Needed to lead the Aes Sedai (plus she sucks the big one)

Alivia - Was supposed to help him die. Not exactly an inspiring companion at the last battle

So even though it seems like he had other choices, I really do not think he did.

[king of nowhere]

brandon mentioned somewhere that the notes from robert jordan said that moiraine was necessary to unite mankind for the last battle, and withoout her the alliance at the field of merrilor would have not formed an alliance. After all the character development egwene got in the tower, it was very difficult to make her act in a way that would spoil the treaty without breaking character. The scene feels underwhelming because of that.

[Voidus]

My problem with Egwene is I still feel that she developed very little as a character, people talk about her developing in the tower but I just don't feel like she changed at all.

[cem]

My problem with Egwene is I still feel that she developed very little as a character, people talk about her developing in the tower but I just don't feel like she changed at all.

I agree with the latter, but disagree with the former. She made the other Aes Sedai accept her in the Tower, but there wasn't much as far as development as a character went, just more experience. So I'm with you there. But I think her real growing up moments were being made damane, training with the Wise Ones, and training with Siuan. She was what she was after that, and applied it for the rest of the series. Her developments were made in leaps and bounds kinda like Perrin, as opposed to Rand who just went crazier and crazier with each book or Mat who was born awesome.

[Voidus]

Being made damane humanized her a lot, made her a real character for a bit, and later on she occasionally references it but I feel like it's had basically no impact on her character other than occasional moments of fearing being made damane again. As for the wise ones, she refused to learn the lessons they taught her, she went at the pace she wanted to, lied to them, and got impatient that they weren't going fast enough, then a bunch of development gets shoved into one scene where she 'takes responsibility' by getting hit, and yet she doesn't even take that lesson to heart, she refuses to forgive anyone else for their perceived wrongdoings.

[cem]

I get the feeling when you think of development you think of only the positive things. Which Egwene doesn't really have much of, in my opinion. Until Falme, Egwene is basically a child, like the rest of the Two Rivers folk. Being made damane is, IMO, what gets her out of childhood. She does what Nynaeve tells her to, more or less, until the third book, but after that she starts behaving as her equal. And from the Wise Ones, she learns to be an effective bully and a sadist, which are what she stays until the end, and maybe arrogance though she had that in abundance to begin with. Granted, these aren't things a person should aspire to, but it is progress.

 

Really, I've always thought Egwene was a hero, so to speak, because of circumstances and proximity. In another story, she'd have made a fine villain.

[king of nowhere]

I think you're all to hard to egwene. Sure, she's arrogant, mean, spoiled, everything else, and I certainly would never want to meet her in person (how can gawyn stand her anyway?). But she's also a good person and a force of good. She cares about the well being of the people she uses as pawns much more than the average aes sedai.

I don't think she could have been a villain in another story, except accidentally by being led to believe that the good guys are wrong and being too dismissive to listen to alternative explanations; sort of like miko in the order of the stick.

[Voidus]

No one is the villain in their own eyes, I could easily see Egwene joining the Shadow for the same reasons as Ishy, thinking it's inevitable and for the best that the wheel ends. She's perfectly capable of ignoring peoples own thoughts and feelings to do what she thinks is best for them.

[cem]

I think you're all to hard to egwene. Sure, she's arrogant, mean, spoiled, everything else, and I certainly would never want to meet her in person (how can gawyn stand her anyway?). But she's also a good person and a force of good. She cares about the well being of the people she uses as pawns much more than the average aes sedai.

I don't think she could have been a villain in another story, except accidentally by being led to believe that the good guys are wrong and being too dismissive to listen to alternative explanations; sort of like miko in the order of the stick.

There is this scene in The Fires of Heaven where Egwene has two illusory men she creates rape Nynaeve in Tel'aran'rhiod, supposedly to teach her the dangers of Tel'aran'rhiod, but by her admission, not my interpretation, the real reason is to distract Nynaeve so she doesn't discover that Egwene doesn't have permission from the Wise Ones to enter Tel'aran'rhiod on her own. Although I suppose it could be called half-rape, since she stops after Nynaeve starts begging Egwene, and crying. Later, she remarks on this scene and gets off on how she bent Nynaeve to her will, and thinks about how satisfying it was. That was the point I'd seen all the goodness I wanted to from Egwene. I think she's a disgusting person, and no, I don't think I'm being hard on her at all.

Edited September 15, 2014 by cem

[Ryan]

I always felt Moiraine had to be there because she was one of the few Aes Sedai Rand trusted. Even after he becomes super Rand, Rand would still want two Aes Sedai he trusted with him at the last battle. Nynaeve and Moiraine were the obvious choices. It's not like he would take Cadsuane.

 

So much this. Remember that dark mode Rand cast Callandor aside because he would have to be subjugated to two women in order to use it safely. He called it a box. Being in a circle gives the leader a lot of control, as demonstrated by the a'dam. Even light mode Rand is not very trusting. Those two are the only ones he trusted that much.

[Wrath]

It's one of the flaws of the series that Egwene is a terrible person whose behaviour is essentially endorsed by her reality. She's the real ta'veren, the one the Pattern bends around to make sure that everything works out right for her. When something bad happens it's just so that she can prove that she's better than everyone else.

[Bort]

I think one of the other roles Moiraine played was that of a sort of spiritual balm.

 

The world is all going to hell; the Dark One is all but free; people who you think can be trusted can't be; you are forced into alliances with your enemies just to stand a chance; and so on.

 

To find out that the one person who believed in you throughout the entire adventure from leaving your home to saving the world did not die, but has instead returned to help you when you are preparing yourself for the end, and your apparent death.

 

I think that is what Moiraine's important role was. To remind Rand that he wasn't going to fight for his death, but rather he was fighting for life.

[Smye]

@Bort, here here!

[happyman]

I agree that Moraine's help at the field's of Merrilor was underwhelming in the moment, but in retrospect, it was extremely helpful. She was a neutral party, implicitly trusted both sides, who sat them down and told them what must be. This can be very helpful when both parties know, deep down, the need to compromise, but somehow just can't.