Theory to explain Darkness's actions

[hoser]

I beg to differ.

...

 

It's not that Kal isn't smart, it's that Szeth is. 

Kal and Szeth are obviously both smart.  There are numerous differences between them, however:

• Szeth has been trained in Kammar, windrunning and the use of Honorblade by the people who have had them for millenia (you don't think he made up all the information we get from his POVs?). 
• Kal has been trained as a healer and a spearman.  Really, Szeth is his mentor in windrunning more than anyone else. 
• Kal can heal shardblade-severed limbs.  Without this, he likely might not have survived the final aerial fight. 
• Kal is aligned with the spren, which he is just figuring out how to use.
• Szeth is aligned with Odium and possibly accompanied by the attention of an unmade (the screaming is characteristic of Yelig-nar).  While it is not clear whether this is actually helpful, we really don't know enough to separate the effects of the various influences on him.  

And ...

Actually, I was mostly arguing against the premise that Kaladin won because, despite being a poor swordsman, he still was better than Szeth. I have a hard time taking this in as Kaladin is not a good swordsman... He has limited practice and from what we saw, he displayed little skill. Based on pure swordsmanship, Szeth has to be better than Kaladin. Szeth is also more experience than Kal in terms of surgebinding. These two facts are causing me to have issues digesting how Kal could beat Szeth so easily.

 

He's had advantages in this fight, true, but I am still trouble over how skill and experience did not weight more in the overall balance.

 

The next part of my argumentation was more or less about Kaladin's overall skill.....

 

 

We have never seen Kaladin fight without his advantages.

 

Yes, he killed a shardbearer, but he was drawing on his Nahel bond at the time: he already had the advantage of increased speed, strength and skill. Would have Kal managed the throwing knife kill without Syl, even if he was unaware of her at the time? I am not sure.

 

Which highranked lighteyes has he killed? Those with Amaram's army? These were the poor one in terms of fighting skill...

 

The only time we saw Kal try to fight without his advantages if after his injury, when he lost Syl. The spear felt wrong to him, it did not have the same feeling and he couldn't summon his usual grace. True, he was injured and in a bad mental place, but I found his internal discussion telling: some of his extraordinary skill is derived from the Nahel bond and it is been so for a long time.

 

 

 

Kaladin is not a smart fighter. In most of his fights, he relies on either his surgebinding or his increased agility/speed/strength/healing to win, never his wits. Szeth, on the other hand, is a very smart fighter: he uses every advantages he has which is why I am still bummed Kal got the better of him. Kal tends to just jump in and make a mess... which works because he is a Radiant.

So when Kaladin and Shallan killed a Chasmfiend while he was unaided by surgebinding effects it was witless and purely based on the advantages he wasn't experiencing? 

When he jumps into a fight against four Shardbearers with only a spear, he is witless, just prevailing by creating a mess that his advantages pull him out of? 

Putting the helm on his hand and using it as a shield was not creative and intelligent?  

 

The way we seem to be able to gauge people's intelligence and "native" fighting skill is just amazing given all the uncontrolled variables.  To me there seem to be so many differences in Szeth's and Kaladin's situations that it is impossible to tease out how much effect each difference makes.  I get someone identifying with Szeth and wanting him to do better, but this last post doesn't even seem to be about the same book that I read. 

[Andrew C]

Any chance the 'Is Kaladin a better fighter than Szeth or just luckier' conversation can become its own thread?

[maxal]

Any chance the 'Is Kaladin a better fighter than Szeth or just luckier' conversation can become its own thread?

 

Actually, yeah. I have been thinking on starting a new thread about our characters fighting skills.

[Savanorn]

I beg to differ.

Kal and Szeth are obviously both smart.  There are numerous differences between them, however:

• Szeth has been trained in Kammar, windrunning and the use of Honorblade by the people who have had them for millenia (you don't think he made up all the information we get from his POVs?). 
• Kal has been trained as a healer and a spearman.  Really, Szeth is his mentor in windrunning more than anyone else. 
• Kal can heal shardblade-severed limbs.  Without this, he likely might not have survived the final aerial fight. 
• Kal is aligned with the spren, which he is just figuring out how to use.
• Szeth is aligned with Odium and possibly accompanied by the attention of an unmade (the screaming is characteristic of Yelig-nar).  While it is not clear whether this is actually helpful, we really don't know enough to separate the effects of the various influences on him.  

So when Kaladin and Shallan killed a Chasmfiend while he was unaided by surgebinding effects it was witless and purely based on the advantages he wasn't experiencing? 

When he jumps into a fight against four Shardbearers with only a spear, he is witless, just prevailing by creating a mess that his advantages pull him out of? 

Putting the helm on his hand and using it as a shield was not creative and intelligent?  

 

The way we seem to be able to gauge people's intelligence and "native" fighting skill is just amazing given all the uncontrolled variables.  To me there seem to be so many differences in Szeth's and Kaladin's situations that it is impossible to tease out how much effect each difference makes.  I get someone identifying with Szeth and wanting him to do better, but this last post doesn't even seem to be about the same book that I read. 

 

 

Any chance the 'Is Kaladin a better fighter than Szeth or just luckier' conversation can become its own thread?

 

 

Actually, yeah. I have been thinking on starting a new thread about our characters fighting skills.

 

I'm taking the discussion there. 

 

Thanks Andrew.

[smokeesid]

Nalan's actions seems unjustified in the wake of Honor's plea to refound the KR and the inevitability of the everstorm if it's not done quickly

 

That adds more mystery and possibilities to his impetus

[Link Start]

I always understood Kal's victory as psychological: he successfully undermined Szeth's will to fight. All he had to do was open Szeth''s eyes to reality: radiants are back, he was never truthless, he never had to commit those murders. He has no reason to murder Dalinar now, and he was only fighting Kal to get to Dalinar.

He despairs and dies.

A question that arises from the discussion of the onset of Kaladin's powers: why has Darkness never come after him? Don't tell me he never committed any crime. He was stealing from corpses to pay for safety bribes way back in Amaram's army. Later, there are all the times he attempted theft

Of himself and others who were legally someone else's property.

How would Nalan know about this? How did he know about Lift and Ym?

So, how come he never came after Kaladin (thief) Stormblessed, Shallan (double homicide) Davar or Jasnah (vigilante street vengeance) Kholin?

 I don't know if someone already answered that, but I don't have time to read the rest of the thread now, so, my theory:

Against Kaladin: Nalan is strong, but he is not invincible. Maybe he realizes Kaladin could beat him, if a 13yo girl can escape him and his men. Or maybe that has something to do with the fact that he is a slave, killing him would be destroying someone else's property, or that the bridgmen cannot be executed by anything else than refusing to charge at the parshendi, so he could not get authorization. Nalan appears to investigate the person thoroughly before taking action, he couldn't kill him right away;

Shallan: I doubt it would be considered homicide, it was self-defense and defense of others. He could, however, have come after her under the accusation of stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster, but even her (Jasnah) didn't know about what happened until the day of poisoning, and then forgave Shallan right after (thus dropping the charges). Also, the law of Alethkar wouldn't allow the execution of a lighteyes just for theft, so Nalan wouldn't be able to get authorization for this;

Jasnah: The book makes it very clear that everything she did in that event was completely legal.

[Shaggai]

 I don't know if someone already answered that, but I don't have time to read the rest of the thread now, so, my theory:

Against Kaladin: Nalan is strong, but he is not invincible. Maybe he realizes Kaladin could beat him, if a 13yo girl can escape him and his men. Or maybe that has something to do with the fact that he is a slave, killing him would be destroying someone else's property, or that the bridgmen cannot be executed by anything else than refusing to charge at the parshendi, so he could not get authorization. Nalan appears to investigate the person thoroughly before taking action, he couldn't kill him right away;

Shallan: I doubt it would be considered homicide, it was self-defense and defense of others. He could, however, have come after her under the accusation of stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster, but even her (Jasnah) didn't know about what happened until the day of poisoning, and then forgave Shallan right after (thus dropping the charges). Also, the law of Alethkar wouldn't allow the execution of a lighteyes just for theft, so Nalan wouldn't be able to get authorization for this;

Jasnah: The book makes it very clear that everything she did in that event was completely legal.

Lift escaped him only for a short time, until she could get a pardon. I wouldn't expect Kaladin to be able to beat a Herald equipped with an Honorblade.

[Link Start]

 Well, we have never seen Nale using his heraldic powers, in order to know if he still has any (Tal seems to have some, but he might be different). I remeber reading somewhere in WoB that heralds can't surgebind without honorblades, and I don't remember reading any confirmation about whether the sword he carries is his own, one related to regrowth or a regular shardblade. And even if he was equally matched with Kaladin (surgebind but no extra powers useful for fights), he might not want take the risk.
 I don't know, it's just that he didn't seem display superhuman features reflexes that Tal did (catching darts in the air), he seemed quit unskilled at his appearances. I myself don't quite believe in this theory, 2nd possibility seems more likely, but I don't want to dismiss it either.

[Andrew C]

 I don't know if someone already answered that, but I don't have time to read the rest of the thread now, so, my theory:

Against Kaladin: Nalan is strong, but he is not invincible. Maybe he realizes Kaladin could beat him, if a 13yo girl can escape him and his men. Or maybe that has something to do with the fact that he is a slave, killing him would be destroying someone else's property, or that the bridgmen cannot be executed by anything else than refusing to charge at the parshendi, so he could not get authorization. Nalan appears to investigate the person thoroughly before taking action, he couldn't kill him right away;

Shallan: I doubt it would be considered homicide, it was self-defense and defense of others. He could, however, have come after her under the accusation of stealing Jasnah's Soulcaster, but even her (Jasnah) didn't know about what happened until the day of poisoning, and then forgave Shallan right after (thus dropping the charges). Also, the law of Alethkar wouldn't allow the execution of a lighteyes just for theft, so Nalan wouldn't be able to get authorization for this;

Jasnah: The book makes it very clear that everything she did in that event was completely legal.

 

 

I believe he has a supernatural ability to detect Surgebinding, (possibly linked to my theory), he used that to detect Ym and Lift, and then and only then did he dig into their pasts for an excuse to execute them legally.

[Link Start]

I believe he has a supernatural ability to detect Surgebinding, (possibly linked to my theory), he used that to detect Ym and Lift, and then and only then did he dig into their pasts for an excuse to execute them legally.

 That much seems quite possible to me, Tal also seemed to display a reaction to Shallan's surgebinding.

[Marmota]

I believe he has a supernatural ability to detect Surgebinding, (possibly linked to my theory), he used that to detect Ym and Lift, and then and only then did he dig into their pasts for an excuse to execute them legally.

 

Thats my understanding as well.

 

That he hates surgebinders is a misunderstanding. He thinks that the return of radiants may also return the desolations ( which apparently is kind true, but he probably has further knowledge as a herald).

 

Thats why, for example, Lift crime wasnt her being a Radiant, but simple being a thief, and thats why Gawx had the power for pardoning her. 

[kaellok]

I think that Nalan has to have some way to detect Surgebinding, or at least spren, even from a distance.  Otherwise he never would have had a hope of finding Szeth after the duel with Kaladin at the end of WoR.  (And, although I disagree with the theory that Nalan has been using Szeth all along, it is a distinct possibility with a fair amount of circumstantial evidence to support it.  And there's a thread discussing it...somewhere.)  We also know that Nalan pays a fair amount of attention to Szeth, or at least seems to based on the conversation that he has with Szeth at the end; he had to have a good idea of the mindset of Szeth before he became Truthless, how being Truthless was affecting him and changing him, etc. 

 

I don't care about any of that anymore, though.  This thread is now about Marmota's avatar pic, because it is just ADORABLE.

[Marmota]

I think that Nalan has to have some way to detect Surgebinding, or at least spren, even from a distance.  Otherwise he never would have had a hope of finding Szeth after the duel with Kaladin at the end of WoR.  (And, although I disagree with the theory that Nalan has been using Szeth all along, it is a distinct possibility with a fair amount of circumstantial evidence to support it.  And there's a thread discussing it...somewhere.)  We also know that Nalan pays a fair amount of attention to Szeth, or at least seems to based on the conversation that he has with Szeth at the end; he had to have a good idea of the mindset of Szeth before he became Truthless, how being Truthless was affecting him and changing him, etc. 

 

I don't care about any of that anymore, though.  This thread is now about Marmota's avatar pic, because it is just ADORABLE.

 

Nalan said that it was Szeths personality that attracted him. 

 

And thanks haha, im flattered. It is a recent photo of myself lol 

[kaellok]

Hmm.  Maybe Nalan is a spren?!  Spren are attracted to/by people because of their actions and personality, after all... 

[Moogle]

Nalan definitely has a supernatural ability to detect Surgebinding. From Lift's scene:

“This one is not your concern,” Darkness said to the guards , waiting as one of his minions did the strange gemstone-moving sequence. Why did they worry about that?

    Something stirred inside of Lift. Like the little swirls of wind at the advent of a storm.

     Darkness looked at her with a sharp motion. “Something is—”

    Awesomeness returned. Lift became Slick, every part of her but her feet and the palms of her hands. She yanked her arm— it slipped from the minion’s fingers— then kicked herself forward and fell to her knees, sliding under Darkness’s hand as he reached for her.

 

The instant she starts turning food to Investiture, Darkness knows.

Edited October 12, 2014 by Moogle

[Andrew C]

Nalan definitely has a supernatural ability to detect Surgebinding. From Lift's scene:

 

The instant she starts turning food to Investiture, Darkness knows.

 

I'd forgotten that.