Theory to explain Darkness's actions

[maxal]

What makes you think Szeth was trained as an assassin?

 

Did I imply this? However, it does seem like Szeth has had more practice with his powers then Kaladin and more practice usually leads to greater efficiency when it comes to using said powers. Kaladin got around using his rather quickly. Szeth took years to reach his current level (I must assume as he has been holding his honorblade for years) and Kaladin beats the crap out of him after a few weeks of surgebinding... It just looked easy or there is something else going on I a missing.

 

 

The other explanation (which is not in any way original to me) is that spren-based Surgebinding has an extra effect besides just access to the Surges. For Kaladin, it's instinctive knowledge of how to fly and use a Shardweapon (unless the latter comes from the psychic bond with the weapon). As such, he's better at flying than Szeth. And remember that he's an extremely good spearman to begin with, and Syl can transform into any weapon that Kaladin needs. That benefit cannot be overestimated. He needs a shield, she's a shield. He needs a sword, she's a sword. He needs a spear, she's a spear. Szeth is limited to a sword.

 

I guess the question is: "Can instinct surpassed greater experience"? I guess it can, but it still felt easy. He is a good spearman, no issues here, but I was bothered he managed to fight him with a sword as well... I mean, Kal had only a few days of training using the sword, how can he managed to prevail using this weapon after so little training time?

 

As for Syl, yeah, she is a definite advantage. Another question would be: "Did Kal beat Szeth because he was a better fighter at the time or because he got lucky?"?

[Moogle]

Szeth was a scholar before he was made Truthless, not a soldier. Kal's got him beat on experience, I think - though experience with the powers is a different matter. Still, Kal was beating Shardbearers before he was able to become a human lightbulb. I find the explanation that Szeth just doesn't have a talent for fighting to make sense, since it would be the Stormlight that was giving him his edge. Kaladin, who does have a talent, would naturally beat Szeth.

 

Szeth probably also wasn't quite functioning at peak efficiency, what with the insanity thing and all.

 

The one thing that bugs me about the fight is that Kaladin crushes Szeth's shoulder with a hammer at one point. I... don't know why he didn't use a slashing weapon and just kill him then.

[maxal]

Szeth was a scholar before he was made Truthless, not a soldier. Kal's got him beat on experience, I think - though experience with the powers is a different matter. Still, Kal was beating Shardbearers before he was able to become a human lightbulb. I find the explanation that Szeth just doesn't have a talent for fighting to make sense, since it would be the Stormlight that was giving him his edge. Kaladin, who does have a talent, would naturally beat Szeth.

 

Well, Szeth was a scholar before. After, he was turned into an assassin... surely he picked up a trick or two. He is also described as a very good swordsman. Isn't he who keeps calling every other swordsman incompetent? He must have had some skill.... I agree Kal is a natural, though, but it still makes you wonder to how far can natural skill with little practice is able to bring you...

 

On the side note..... I have been wondering lately, who are the best swordsmen on Roshar? I don't know if Brandon ever made a list or something. I would really like to know how each of our known swordsmen really rank one against the other. It would also be amusing to trust in a few blademasters from WoT into the lot such as Lan, Demandred and Rand. If I ever get the chance to meet Brandon, that's the question I would ask.

 

 

Szeth probably also wasn't quite functioning at peak efficiency, what with the insanity thing and all.

 

That is actually a very good argument. The fighting scene does happen right after he looses all control and decides to slay defeated Adolin. He did sound quite mad, so yeah, it must have been impairing on his fighting skill.

[Shaggai]

Well, Szeth was a scholar before. After, he was turned into an assassin... surely he picked up a trick or two. He is also described as a very good swordsman. Isn't he who keeps calling every other swordsman incompetent? He must have had some skill.... I agree Kal is a natural, though, but it still makes you wonder to how far can natural skill with little practice is able to bring you...

 

On the side note..... I have been wondering lately, who are the best swordsmen on Roshar? I don't know if Brandon ever made a list or something. I would really like to know how each of our known swordsmen really rank one against the other. It would also be amusing to trust in a few blademasters from WoT into the lot such as Lan, Demandred and Rand. If I ever get the chance to meet Brandon, that's the question I would ask.

 

 

 

That is actually a very good argument. The fighting scene does happen right after he looses all control and decides to slay defeated Adolin. He did sound quite mad, so yeah, it must have been impairing on his fighting skill.

He views them as incompetent because they can't kill someone who has significantly enhanced speed and strength, who is standing on the ceiling, and who is wielding an extremely powerful magic sword. Szeth is not using a sane definition of "incompetent".

[maxal]

He views them as incompetent because they can't kill someone who has significantly enhanced speed and strength, who is standing on the ceiling, and who is wielding an extremely powerful magic sword. Szeth is not using a sane definition of "incompetent".

 

That's a good explanation.

 

I would still like to hear Brandon on the matter... Who's the best swordsman we know in Roshar? Is Szeth really good or does he just think he is good (the Gawin's symdrome)? How are Kaladin's skill with the swords, truly? Is Adolin really that good or is he just bolder and luckier?

[Andrew C]

I'm interested to see Peter reading this thread...

[sun tzaro]

Szeth was a scholar before he was made Truthless, not a soldier.

Is this a WoB? I don't recall such a thing from WoR, and google isn't turning anything up.

 

Kal's got him beat on experience, I think

I find this hard to accept. Kaladin joined the army when he was 16. In WoR, I believe he's 21. Kaladin has been through a hell of a lot, but combat wise?

Kaladin fought normal men (ones that he himself describes as the dregs of the armies of Alethkar) in Amarams army for four years. At the end of his time in Amaram's army, he successfully kills a full Shardbearer. This occurs when Kaladin is not aware of his powers, and seems to have been as much luck as skill.

Kaladin was a slave, and led several rebellions against different slaveowners over the course of about eight months. Each time, he was probably fighting against mercenaries, with improvised weapons, and each time, he failed.

He becomes a bridgeman, and does no fighting until the stand at the Tower, where he fights Parshendi. Here, he knows that stormlight gives him enhanced speed, strength, and healing, and he is successful in defeating numerous Parshendi.

As part of the Kholin family guard, he fights Szeth. He holds his own for about a minute, which is impressive. In this battle, both are channeling stormlight, but neither is fully aware of the other's powers.

In the arena, he fights four shardbearers alongside Adolin. Kaladin has pretty significant success here, but he avoids channeling too much stormlight, and has the advantage of surprise on his side.

His last real fight is against a chasmfiend. Here, he had no stormlight to aid him.

Kaladin's combat experience is not negligible, but prior to fighting Szeth, he has only had three combat experiences against capable enemies: Helaran, the four duelists, and the Parshendi. The rest were mercenaries or conscripted soldiers.

Szeth is 35 years old and has been Truthless for eight years. He has slaughtered Kings and King's guards - presumably some of the most skilled soldiers in an army - en masse. Gavilar was supposed to be one of the greatest swordsmen of Alethkar, and Szeth killed him two years after becoming Truthless.

Objectively speaking, Szeth has the edge in combat experience.

 

though experience with the powers is a different matter. Still, Kal was beating Shardbearers before he was able to become a human lightbulb. I find the explanation that Szeth just doesn't have a talent for fighting to make sense, since it would be the Stormlight that was giving him his edge. Kaladin, who does have a talent, would naturally beat Szeth.

I very strongly disagree. We've seen what Kaladin was like when Syl has deserted him. In WoR he holds a spear and it feels wrong - he finds that his skills are gone, and wonders how much of his ability - his talent - was dependent on Syl. Stormlight and Syl have been giving him an edge for ages - even if he didn't know it.

It seems that a lot of people around here are very dismissive of Szeth's fighting abilities. I want to make a comment on this - surgebinding ability is fighting ability. In the same way that using a shardblade is far different than using a normal sword, fighting with surgebinding is far different than fighting without it. 

 

If you had given Tyne a shardblade and the surgebinding abilities of a Windrunner, she wasn't suddenly going to become an incredible warrior, simply because she was very competent at swordplay. Shardblade, surgebinding, and swordplay are used in conjunction. A shardblade allows someone to ignore armor, which changes the nature of swordplay completely. Gravitic surgebinding allows someone to fight while in flight and while lashing the other person in different directions, which changes the nature of fighting with shardblades completely.

 

Szeth is an accomplished fighter with a shardblade and with surgebinding. Just because he may be a very weak fighter without his honorblade doesn't diminish the fact that he is very skilled.

 

So, how did Kaladin defeat Szeth? I don't think the answer is innate skill, and that Kaladin won just because the playing field was leveled. In fact, now that I think about it, it was actually significantly leveled in Kaladin's favor. Syl explicitly says after Szeth's first assassination attempt on Dalinar that Kaladin, with just his second Oath, was potentially capable of doing the same things that Szeth could - and yet Kaladin was struggling to stick a rock to a wall, while Szeth was running upside down , smashing people together, and creating all kinds of havoc.

 

Really, all of this makes me wonder just how powerful a full Knights Radiant must be. A Radiant in full plate, able to use a weapon that can change forms incredibly fluidly in the midst of combat, with respective surges fully mastered, must be incredibly ahead of everything we've seen so far.

 

Just the weapon-changing-forms things makes me hope that Sanderson really knows what he's doing. Just that changes the nature of fighting completely. Being able to switch from a spear, for reach in combat, to a blade, for slicing in close quarters, to a hammer, for blunt force, to a shield, for defense from nearly anything... now that I think about it, if the weapon-changing-forms ability isn't exclusive to Windrunners, Sanderson is going to have a HELL of a time writing any sort of fight scene between Radiants. Perhaps he'll avoid one altogether.  

Edited September 28, 2014 by sun tzaro

[maxal]

Is this a WoB? I don't recall such a thing from WoR, and google isn't turning anything up.

 

I find this hard to accept. Kaladin joined the army when he was 16. In WoR, I believe he's 21. Kaladin has been through a hell of a lot, but combat wise?

Kaladin fought normal men (ones that he himself describes as the dregs of the armies of Alethkar) in Amarams army for four years. At the end of his time in Amaram's army, he successfully kills a full Shardbearer. This occurs when Kaladin is not aware of his powers, and seems to have been as much luck as skill.

Kaladin was a slave, and led several rebellions against different slaveowners over the course of about eight months. Each time, he was probably fighting against mercenaries, with improvised weapons, and each time, he failed.

He becomes a bridgeman, and does no fighting until the stand at the Tower, where he fights Parshendi. Here, he knows that stormlight gives him enhanced speed, strength, and healing, and he is successful in defeating numerous Parshendi.

As part of the Kholin family guard, he fights Szeth. He holds his own for about a minute, which is impressive. In this battle, both are channeling stormlight, but neither is fully aware of the other's powers.

In the arena, he fights four shardbearers alongside Adolin. Kaladin has pretty significant success here, but he avoids channeling too much stormlight, and has the advantage of surprise on his side.

His last real fight is against a chasmfiend. Here, he had no stormlight to aid him.

Kaladin's combat experience is not negligible, but prior to fighting Szeth, he has only had three combat experiences against capable enemies: Helaran, the four duelists, and the Parshendi. The rest were mercenaries or conscripted soldiers.

Szeth is 35 years old and has been Truthless for eight years. He has slaughtered Kings and King's guards - presumably some of the most skilled soldiers in an army - en masse. Gavilar was supposed to be one of the greatest swordsmen of Alethkar, and Szeth killed him two years after becoming Truthless.

Objectively speaking, Szeth has the edge in combat experience.

 

This is amazing. You did a remarkable job of underlining each of Kaladin's combat experiences which, contrary to the popular belief are not as extensive as they could have been.

 

In Amaram's army, Kaladin fought people who barely knew how to fight. He did well... keeping his squad alive and training the new kids. He fought Helaran, but let's be frank, Helaran was a poor shardbearer and, probably, a poor swordsman. Kal got lucky on this one: he would have never defeater any of the Kohlin's shardbearer this way. True, he is gifted with the spear, but how much of it is his skill and how much of it is Radiant enhance ability? There is also the fact the spear is a much easier weapon to master then the sword, so yes it is possible 4 years on intensive training is sufficient to become a master.

 

I don't believe the same could be said about the sword.

 

In the fight against Szeth, he hold his own mostly because Szeth dismissed him immediately. He gunned for Adolin right away as he was the shardbearer there. Poor Adolin never knew what hit him (how could have forseen that) and got stuck to the ceiling. Afterwards, he went after Dalinar. Kaladin was an annoyance at best. Has he figured he was the most dangerous opponent from the start: he would have disarmed him immediately.

 

In the arena, Kaladin's succes are entirely due to his Radiant abilities and his stormlight. Take that away and he was pasture. He didn't fight any of the guys directly anyway, mostly he tried to steer them away from Adolin so he wouldn't have three to fight at the same time.

 

Kal has also demonstrated he has poor understanding of combat strategy as his entire contribution to any fight has always been "trying to protect someone" as opposed to "winning".

 

I thus agree Szeth has the advantage when it comes to combat experience.

[Moogle]

Warning: long, possibly rambling post.
 

Is this a WoB? I don't recall such a thing from WoR, and google isn't turning anything up.

 
It's continually referenced in WoK that Szeth speaks in a refined voice, uses a more extensive vocabulary, and speaks "like a lighteyes". It makes people uncomfortable. Szeth even remarks he can't stop himself:

Perhaps they could sense the truth, that he was capable of so much more than they dared use him for. It was one thing to have a slave of your own. But when that slave talked like a lighteyes and knew more than you did? It made them uncomfortable. Szeth tried to play the part, tried to make himself act less refined. It was very difficult for him. Perhaps impossible.

 
Before his exiled he was used to "meditation":

Back then, he’d still been accustomed to gentle highstorms. Rain, wind, and meditation.

 
If Szeth were Alethi, I'd think he was ardent from this. This makes me think the Shin have a similar class of people.
 
He was cast out by his people after trying to warn them the Voidbringers were coming (which would have required scholarship). Put it all together, and I see a scholar, or at least someone who definitely wasn't raised as a warrior (most of the Shin are not). His extensive knowledge marks him as very well-educated. Peter's comment in this thread heavily implies Szeth was not trained as an assassin. Maybe I'm crazy?

 

---

 

Kaladin fought normal men (ones that he himself describes as the dregs of the armies of Alethkar) in Amarams army for four years. At the end of his time in Amaram's army, he successfully kills a full Shardbearer. This occurs when Kaladin is not aware of his powers, and seems to have been as much luck as skill.

 
Kaladin claims to have had his skill since childhood:

“You’re wrong,” Kaladin said. “About me. I’m not new to this.”
“You only just acquired your abilities.”
“No. The wind is mine. The sky is mine. They have been mine since childhood. You are the trespasser here. Not me.”

 
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest Kaladin's not lying here. He certainly felt something special when he first fought Jost:

Jost lowered his staff, looking abashed. “Well,” he said. “You can see that my fah trained me right good. Maybe that will show you. The things he says are true, and—”
Kal growled in anger and pain, snatching his quarterstaff from the ground and leaping at Jost. The older boy cursed, stumbling backward as he raised his weapon. Kal bellowed, slamming his weapon forward. Something changed in that moment. Kal felt an energy as he held the weapon, an excitement that washed away his pain.
He spun, smashing the staff into one of Jost’s hands. Jost let go with that hand, screaming. Kal brought his weapon around and slammed it into the boy’s side. Kal had never held a weapon before, never been in a fight any more dangerous than a wrestling match with Tien. But the length of wood felt right in his fingers. He was amazed by how wonderful the moment felt.

 
I'm inclined to think it was the Thrill, but Kaladin says otherwise, so who am I to judge? I also think it shows some innate talent with the spear, but again I might be crazy on that front. Kaladin might not have fought a ton of super-skilled enemies, but he makes special note of his innate talent so many times I think it might be overkill listing them here. Here's a few:

“I could have beaten him,” Kaladin continued. “I probably could have beaten all four of them. I’ve always been good with the spear. No, not good. Durk called me amazing. A natural born soldier, an artist with the spear.”
...
Of all the recruits in his cohort, he had learned the quickest. How to hold the spear, how to stand to spar. He’d done it almost without instruction. That had shocked Tukks. But why should it have? You were not shocked when a child knew how to breathe. You were not shocked when a skyeel took flight for the first time. You should not be shocked when you hand Kaladin Stormblessed a spear and he knows how to use it.

 

It's mentioned a ridiculous number of times that Stormlight takes your innate skill and perfects it. Innate skill matters, and Kaladin has it in spades. Szeth never remarks on anything similar. Also, when Kaladin loses Syl and claims he lost his skill, he still takes down multiple guards while being horribly wounded.

 

Syl mentions she only start becoming attracted to Kal when he was protection people in Amaram's army, which doesn't square with things. Maybe Kaladin was marked as a windspren-candidate because he wanted to heal and protection people even as a kid, and even this was enough to form a proto-bond to Syl or something? Brandon helpfully muddies the waters here:

Q:  When does a person become a Surgebinder? Because Kaladin talks about when he was a child, about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?
A:  The bond starts forming before the words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.
(source)

 
As to your comment on it being "luck" when Kaladin takes down the Shardbearer, I'm going to disagree very hard. Kaladin casually takes a lighteyes down with a knife to the face:

Subsquad three drew off the honor guard. Subsquad two distracted the lighteyes. He didn’t see Kaladin approaching from a third direction. The man dropped with a knife to the eye; his face was unprotected. He screamed as he clattered to the ground, still alive.

 
Throwing knives are really hard to use, and Kaladin's doing it without much in the way of difficulty here. When he grabs a falling spearhead and slams it directly into Helaran's visor, I'm thinking Kaladin was making his own luck, if it was luck at all.
 

Szeth is 35 years old and has been Truthless for eight years. He has slaughtered Kings and King's guards - presumably some of the most skilled soldiers in an army - en masse. Gavilar was supposed to be one of the greatest swordsmen of Alethkar, and Szeth killed him two years after becoming Truthless.

 
Szeth has been Truthless for eight years, and of those eight years he's spent many of them glorying in being unused. After killing Gavilar, he was passed from master to master without killing anyone. He ended up in Bavland, whereupon some footpads killed his master, and that was when he started getting practice again. (Crappy practice, too. He was fighting unarmed Muggles - the only real practice I'd say he got here was how best to plan an assassination without making people suspicious about your Shardblade. Certainly his swordfighting didn't improve.) And that didn't last long, because Taravangian's agent picked him up after and then he started his killing spree. I'd estimate he's spent less than three years actually getting practice with his Honorblade, though it's hard to say how much training he received after he got it and left Shinovar. He did have practice with Lashings before killing Gavilar.
 
As to Gavilar, well, Gavilar beat Szeth in combat. He only lost because Szeth had Lashings in the end. Gavilar had no way to predict he could collapse a balcony. Szeth didn't exactly show himself to be super-skilled, only very good at being mobile and jumping around... which Gavilar promptly countered with a fist to the face. Szeth doesn't beat Shardbearers through extreme skill at the sword, he beats them through intelligent, clever uses of Lashings. He doesn't even always kill groups of guards with his Shardblade, preferring to do things like cut blocks of stone for use as a projectile weapon. Szeth doesn't fight skillfully, he fights smartly, and lets his super-enhanced strength and speed make up for any lack of skill when he's actually forced to go Blade to Blade with someone.

 

Example: Szeth assassinates the King of Jah Keved, who has a half-shard shield and two Shardbearers protecting him. Szeth kills one Shardbearer via 20x Lashed block of stone, and the other he kills by flipping a table on him with a Lashing, then Lashing himself with extreme force down and stabbing him while he was dazed on his back. He never directly duels either with his sword, he just runs away with Stormlight-enhanced speed which the Muggles can't match.
 
Contrast this to Kaladin, who parries multiple Shardbearers at one time, while not using Lashings, while just holding a Shardhelmetglove, and without being fully infused. He he has some major skill there.
 
The only true training I think we can point to Szeth having is his training in this "kammar" thing:

Szeth danced between them, using the ancient martial art of kammar, which used only the hands. It was meant as a less deadly form of fighting, focused on grabbing enemies and using their weight against them, immobilizing them.

 
Which, notably, is about immobilizing the enemy. Nonlethal "combat" training. It would fit with Szeth being some sort of scholar/monk, though maybe he learned it during his two year gap between Truthless and Gavilar.

 

He has slaughtered Kings and King's guards - presumably some of the most skilled soldiers in an army - en masse.

 

Szeth doesn't care about the "skilled soldiers in the army". Any Muggle without Shards is zero threat to Szeth. During WoR, he lets himself he stabbed with spears and arrows. He doesn't care. If it's not a Shardbearer, I'm not convinced Szeth gained much experience from his fights.

 

I also note that Szeth fought Dalinar (who had no Shardplate and who wasn't infused with Stormlight) and Dalinar fought him to a standstill for something like a minute. Dalinar himself is skilled, but this is just the sort of thing that indicates to me that Szeth is not supremely skilled at sword fighting. I'd bet quite a lot of money that Kaladin would have eviscerated Dalinar within a few seconds if he were in that situation.

 

I feel Stormlight gives Szeth enough power to survive against Shardbearers, and his intelligence (seriously, he's really damnation smart and inventive - he planned out assassinations very competently) is what lets him kill enemy Shardbearers. He uses his environment to his advantage, and when he fought Kaladin he was denied that - what can you Lash at your opponent when you're fighting in the sky? How can you use your Lashings to surprise the enemy when the enemy can do them too? Szeth has greater experience with his powers, sure, but he has no opportunity to really use them in the fight against Kaladin. There was only one Surgebinding technique used in the Kal vs. Szeth fight, and that was Lashing themselves, which Kaladin practiced and mastered on-screen.

 

(Also, Surgebinding is remarked upon as being quite instinctive, much like Allomancy. I expect the gap between Kaladin and Szeth's Surgebinding abilities was not too big, despite Szeth's years of experience).

 

Szeth losing is not surprising, in retrospect - he was forced to rely entirely on his skill with his Blade against a more skilled opponent rather than use his Surgebinding abilities to beat him, as was his usual method, and he was promptly defeated.

 

---

 

Just the weapon-changing-forms things makes me hope that Sanderson really knows what he's doing. Just that changes the nature of fighting completely. Being able to switch from a spear, for reach in combat, to a blade, for slicing in close quarters, to a hammer, for blunt force, to a shield, for defense from nearly anything... now that I think about it, if the weapon-changing-forms ability isn't exclusive to Windrunners, Sanderson is going to have a HELL of a time writing any sort of fight scene between Radiants. Perhaps he'll avoid one altogether.

 

I agree, and I've already had issues with the ones he wrote for Kaladin in WoR. Kaladin uses a hammer on Szeth's shoulder, which breaks it... rather than a sword which would slice right through Szeth and kill him. (???)

 

Quote since I've been doing it all the rest of this post:

As Kaladin chased, Szeth spun and fell backward, attacking, though Syl became a shield to block. Kaladin swung down and a hammer appeared in his hand, crashing against Szeth’s shoulder, breaking bones. As Stormlight tried to heal the assassin, Kaladin pulled in close and slammed his hand against Szeth’s stomach, a knife appearing there and digging deeply into the skin. He sought the spine.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

Kaladin claims to have had his skill since childhood:

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest Kaladin's not lying here. He certainly felt something special when he first fought Jost:

 

 

This particular quote, the one where Szeth claims Kaladin is new to this has always bothered me. Clearly, Szeth is referring to surgebinding and he has to be right about this: Kaladin has been surgebinding for a few weeks only. He's had very limited training with his lashings. How could he possibly be of equal capacity with Szeth? It is impossible to best a trained person to any skill with such limited training even if you are a natural. I just cannot believe this.

 

To this, Kaladin answers the Szeth is wrong, that he has been practicing since childhood. From another quote, which you pointed out in your ramblings , we know Syl got interested in him as he fought for Amaram. These do not equal themselves. Why would Kaladin claimed he is not new to surgebinding when he is? Why would he seemed so convinced he has known the wind since childhood if Syl had not been around back then?

 

These particular quotes have always bothered me as something is wrong with them: they contradict each other. Kaladin, as a child, was drawn to the winds, but without a spren around, wind is just wind and no way it equates training. As we know Syl arrived at a much later time in his life, then why would he so readily admit being so experienced at it? As for the Jost event, I agree it could be the Thrill, but I have always thought it was something else. Even if you have talent, even if you are a natural, you can't just know how to fight when you never picked up a weapon... You can learn fast, but to instinctively know how to hold it right, to trust it right? I don't believe it. Something else must be there that we are missing.

 

We have clues that part of Kal's skill is caused by his bond to Syl. His feeling of wrongness as he held his spear after having lost the bond is a good example. It is not just he was injured, he felt wrong, he couldn't hold the spear right, him who was so natural with it... What else to conclude then his skill and what passes for natural talent is derived from the Nahel bond?

 

Things do not add up. On one side, we have Kal that admits being trained with the wind since childhood. We have quotes that seem to imply most of his skill is a side product of the Nahel bond. On the other side, Syl claims she has not been around before Tien's death. I have never quite manage to find a satisfactory explanation for all of these things.

 

Quote

“I could have beaten him,” Kaladin continued. “I probably could have beaten all four of them. I’ve always been good with the spear. No, not good. Durk called me amazing. A natural born soldier, an artist with the spear.”

...

Of all the recruits in his cohort, he had learned the quickest. How to hold the spear, how to stand to spar. He’d done it almost without instruction. That had shocked Tukks. But why should it have? You were not shocked when a child knew how to breathe. You were not shocked when a skyeel took flight for the first time. You should not be shocked when you hand Kaladin Stormblessed a spear and he knows how to use it.

 

About this... Kaladin is arrogant. Yeah. The very first thing he keeps reproaching to the lighteyes in general and Adolin in particular. Arrogance. He thinks he is marvelous and he is offended not everyone marvels in front of his supernatural skill or that he instructor may take offense in it. He is good, that is a given. He has natural talent, true, but his reaction towards his lack of talent with the swords was telling... He got frustrated because he was not good at it. He arrogantly thought that, he, Kaladin Stormblessed would kill with the sword and reach Zahel's level in mere minutes. He was utterly shocked it didn't happened... This particular passage tells me mastering the sword is much, much, much harder than mastering the spear. There is also the fact the bridgemen managed to become skilled warrior after a few weeks of training in a sub-optimal environment...

 

Kaladin and the spear, Kaladin and the sword, Kaladin and surgebinding... Not all of these quite make sense for me just yet. Shallan makes sense, but Kaladin?

[Moogle]

Kaladin has been surgebinding for a few weeks only. He's had very limited training with his lashings. How could he possibly be of equal capacity with Szeth? It is impossible to best a trained person to any skill with such limited training even if you are a natural. I just cannot believe this.

 

My main point was that even if Kaladin wasn't of equal Surgebinding skill with Szeth (I think Szeth cleanly beats Kaladin in his creativity with Lashings if nothing else - Szeth is very aware of and uses his environment, which actually fits really well with him being a Skybreaker now that I think on it since they'd want to hone their skills of perception for evidence gathering), was that it didn't matter.

 

Szeth vs. Kaladin was a duel determined entirely by skill with Blades, and I as I hope I demonstrated, Szeth isn't great with his Blade. Szeth's strength was always his Lashings, and the environment (middle of the sky) took that away from him. All they could Lash was themselves, and Kaladin did pretty much master that with his flying around the chasms. Szeth didn't even have the whole fighting on walls thing which he had practiced more than Kaladin. He was just incredibly limited while being insane.

 

And this would have also been Szeth's first time fighting someone in mid-air with a mirror of his own skillset plus a morphing weapon. He doesn't have much practice with that. Kaladin, on the other hand, does have experience against people with a Shardblade.

 

This particular quote, the one where Szeth claims Kaladin is new to this has always bothered me. Clearly, Szeth is referring to surgebinding and he has to be right about this: Kaladin has been surgebinding for a few weeks only.

 

It is weird, and makes me think there was a proto-bond with Syl. Doesn't Syl remark that she was searching with the windspren for Kaladin? Kaladin was feeling the wind as early as Jost, so maybe that's the answer.

 

Relevant quote:

“I am the only honorspren who has come,” Syl said. “I . . .” She seemed to be stretching to remember. “I was forbidden. I came anyway. To find you.”

“You knew me?”

“No. But I knew I’d find you.” She smiled. “I spent the time with my cousins, searching.”

 

May just be an artifact of spren grammar that she says she was searching for Kaladin specifically. I thought it was originally more likely that she meant she was searching for someone like Kaladin, but maybe she was actually searching for Kaladin specifically. He attracted her as a child, and so she went through the barrier to the Physical... only, she ended up on the other side of the continent, and forgot everything, and just knew she had to keep an eye out for him while masquerading as a windspren. Or maybe the windspren have some sort of communication network she was able to tap and use it to narrow down Kal's location, and she found him in the army.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Moogle

[Shaggai]

As to your comment on it being "luck" when Kaladin takes down the Shardbearer, I'm going to disagree very hard. Kaladin casually takes a lighteyes down with a knife to the face:

 

Throwing knives are really hard to use, and Kaladin's doing it without much in the way of difficulty here. When he grabs a falling spearhead and slams it directly into Helaran's visor, I'm thinking Kaladin was making his own luck, if it was luck at all.

That passage seemed to me to imply that Kaladin came up behind the lighteyes and stabbed him in the face, not that he threw a knife.

[Moogle]

That passage seemed to me to imply that Kaladin came up behind the lighteyes and stabbed him in the face, not that he threw a knife.

 

Kaladin doesn't tend to stab people with his knives. He uses his spear for that. He'd have to be too close, and the spear gives him good range. I'm 90% sure it was a thrown knife. Here's a few examples, where he tries:

Every suit of armor had a chink. Every man had a flaw. Kaladin thought he saw the man’s eyes through the helm’s slit. That slit was just big enough for a dagger, but the throw would have to be perfect. He’d have to be close. Deadly close.

...

Kaladin spun among them in a wild offensive rush. His spear seemed to flow of its own accord. He swept the feet out from under one man, took down another with a thrown knife.

 

The lighteyes was on a horse. I doubt Kaladin could have stabbed his face from below, and there's no description of him climbing the horse. I guess it's not actually that clear, though?

Edited September 28, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

My main point was that even if Kaladin wasn't of equal Surgebinding skill with Szeth (I think Szeth cleanly beats Kaladin in his creativity with Lashings if nothing else - Szeth is very aware of and uses his environment, which actually fits really well with him being a Skybreaker now that I think on it since they'd want to hone their skills of perception for evidence gathering), was that it didn't matter.

 

Szeth vs. Kaladin was a duel determined entirely by skill with Blades, and I as I hope I demonstrated, Szeth isn't great with his Blade. Szeth's strength was always his Lashings, and the environment (middle of the sky) took that away from him. All they could Lash was themselves, and Kaladin did pretty much master that with his flying around the chasms. Szeth didn't even have the whole fighting on walls thing which he had practiced more than Kaladin. He was just incredibly limited while being insane.

 

And this would have also been Szeth's first time fighting someone in mid-air with a mirror of his own skillset plus a morphing weapon. He doesn't have much practice with that. Kaladin, on the other hand, does have experience against people with a Shardblade.

 

I understand your argumentation better. Thanks for clarifying

 

I believe we both agree over the fact Szeth is more advanced in his mastering of the surge of Gravitation then Kaladin. So far, Kaladin has used the surge to do nothing more then levitate himself whereas Szeth has used it to topple people over and lash inanimate objects. However, I do the agree the physical context into which the fight happened did lessen this advantage Szeth had as they were both flying into free air. Little room to wiggle, so yeah, I do agree this would more or less nullify Szeth's increased experience with this specific surge.

 

Now I am not sure I agree with your second paragraph. You claim the duel was settled based on skill with the Blade..... How can it be the case as Kal fought, for the most part, with a sword and we do know he is not good with it. Now, he turned being better then Szeth anticipated, but Kaladin had to be leagues below Galivar/Dalinar/Adolin's level. You seem to base part of your argumentation over the potential fact that Szeth is not very skill with the sword and this is troublesome. I agree Kal had the advantage of surprise and of changing weapons as well as being mentally sane. I think we can all agree that Szeth was more or less insane at the time of the fight. So yes, I will give Kal an advantage here.

 

Now back to Szeth's swordsmanship. Part of the reason I wish to ask Brandon the question is to settle who's just good and who's exceptional when it comes to sword fighting. Szeth has fought four people we know of: Galivar, Dalinar, Kaladin and Adolin. We also know he seems to held every other shardbearer in contempt as he considers them unskilled. I do agree Szeth's opinion on the matter may be biased by his other abilities which keep making him come on top. I also agree there is a part of arrogance in there as well.

 

It has always been my interpretation that Galivar is a better swordsman than Dalinar. I do not have any solid evidence for this, so if you have a quote that dispute this, please shoot it Kaladin is said to be very talented with the spear, but he is not so good with a sword. I do believe sword is a more versatile and powerful weapon then the spear, so I'd give the advantage to the sword in any spear/sword fight. I may be wrong, so again, if you have evidence it is the case, shoot it Now, Elhokar thinks Adolin is may be a better swordsman than both Galivar and Dalinar. He did manage to hold of against four shardbearers for a short while, he prevailed against three and he beat two in a display of skill that amazed Kaladin at a time in the story where Kal was unwilling to give any credit to Adolin for anything.

 

Back to Szeth. Szeth fought against Galivar and nearly lost. In the end, it is his surgebinding abilities that gave him the advantage, not his skill with the sword. He did, however, hold his own against a reputed very skilled swordsman, perhaps one of the best. We also have indications Galivar may have been on his way to become a Radiant (I am doubtfull about this, but there are clues), it is therefore not too much of a strech to think he may have been using stormlight as well. During the fight in the corridor, he disarmed Adolin almost immediately: not much fighting involved, he just had him crush from floor to ceiling back and forth in a few minutes and pretty much knock him out of play. No swordsmanship here, just pure surgebinding. He fought Kaladin and he was destabilized to see another surgebinder. This was enough to give sufficient leverage to Kal to more or less defeat him. Without his surgebinding, Kal was dead, Dalinar was dead and Adolin would have most probably survived. Now, the fight at the end, Dalinar hold against him for about a minute. One powerful minute during which he displayed amazing skill despite being injured. We could make the argument he probably was drawing on stormlight, pretty much like when he stop that chasmfield claw.. So Dalinar had probably increased ability making more even to Szeth and they fought and Szeth won. Adolin did better then his first fight, but he was clearly outclass.

 

The fact is he won against both Dalinar and Galivar who may have been able to use stormlight. It is a far stretch for Galivar, a near probability for Dalinar. He beat the crap out of Adolin. He lost to Kaladin who is a Radiant, but there are many things playing against him at the time.

 

I cannot therefore conclude that Szeth is not good with his sword. Quite the contrary, I must conclude he is quite skilled.

 

Kaladin could not therefore have beaten him out of pure skill with the sword. Impossible. Other elements must have caused these and some luck as well.... Kaladin IS lucky, overly, but according to Taravangian, Radiants were lucky......

 

 

May just be an artifact of spren grammar that she says she was searching for Kaladin specifically. I thought it was originally more likely that she meant she was searching for someone like Kaladin, but maybe she was actually searching for Kaladin specifically. He attracted her as a child, and so she went through the barrier to the Physical... only, she ended up on the other side of the continent, and forgot everything, and just knew she had to keep an eye out for him while masquerading as a windspren. Or maybe the windspren have some sort of communication network she was able to tap and use it to narrow down Kal's location, and she found him in the army.

 

This is an interesting theory. Syl was around when he was a child, but forgot all about it. It does make sense. I am completely unwilling to accept Kaladin is so talented he does not need to actually learn how to yield a weapon to be proficient with it. Something must have helped him.

 

 

Kaladin doesn't tend to stab people with his knives. He uses his spear for that. He'd have to be too close, and the spear gives him good range. I'm 90% sure it was a thrown knife. Here's a few examples, where he tries:

 

The lighteyes was on a horse. I doubt Kaladin could have stabbed his face from below, and there's no description of him climbing the horse. I guess it's not actually that clear, though?

 

I think he trust it as well and, yeah, without his upcoming Nahel bond, he would have missed. Let's be frank, if Kal had been your regular good spearmen, he would have been dead. His bond, even if incomplete, has been giving him an advantage for a long, very long time.

[Zea mays]

I always understood Kal's victory as psychological: he successfully undermined Szeth's will to fight. All he had to do was open Szeth''s eyes to reality: radiants are back, he was never truthless, he never had to commit those murders. He has no reason to murder Dalinar now, and he was only fighting Kal to get to Dalinar.

He despairs and dies.

A question that arises from the discussion of the onset of Kaladin's powers: why has Darkness never come after him? Don't tell me he never committed any crime. He was stealing from corpses to pay for safety bribes way back in Amaram's army. Later, there are all the times he attempted theft

Of himself and others who were legally someone else's property.

How would Nalan know about this? How did he know about Lift and Ym?

So, how come he never came after Kaladin (thief) Stormblessed, Shallan (double homicide) Davar or Jasnah (vigilante street vengeance) Kholin?

[Andrew C]

I always understood Kal's victory as psychological: he successfully undermined Szeth's will to fight. All he had to do was open Szeth''s eyes to reality: radiants are back, he was never truthless, he never had to commit those murders. He has no reason to murder Dalinar now, and he was only fighting Kal to get to Dalinar.

He despairs and dies.

A question that arises from the discussion of the onset of Kaladin's powers: why has Darkness never come after him? Don't tell me he never committed any crime. He was stealing from corpses to pay for safety bribes way back in Amaram's army. Later, there are all the times he attempted theft

Of himself and others who were legally someone else's property.

How would Nalan know about this? How did he know about Lift and Ym?

So, how come he never came after Kaladin (thief) Stormblessed, Shallan (double homicide) Davar or Jasnah (vigilante street vengeance) Kholin?

 

 

I don't believe Nalan is omniscient. My recollection of the Ym chapter is that Nalan spent some time investigating Ym before killing him.

[kaellok]

 

Now I am not sure I agree with your second paragraph. You claim the duel was settled based on skill with the Blade..... How can it be the case as Kal fought, for the most part, with a sword and we do know he is not good with it. Now, he turned being better then Szeth anticipated, but Kaladin had to be leagues below Galivar/Dalinar/Adolin's level. You seem to base part of your argumentation over the potential fact that Szeth is not very skill with the sword and this is troublesome. I agree Kal had the advantage of surprise and of changing weapons as well as being mentally sane. I think we can all agree that Szeth was more or less insane at the time of the fight. So yes, I will give Kal an advantage here.

 

I cannot therefore conclude that Szeth is not good with his sword. Quite the contrary, I must conclude he is quite skilled.

 

Kaladin could not therefore have beaten him out of pure skill with the sword. Impossible. Other elements must have caused these and some luck as well.... Kaladin IS lucky, overly, but according to Taravangian, Radiants were lucky......

Snippy snip snip snip!  (Including some pieces of pertinent argumentation, which changes the overall flow of information, but I wanted to shorten the post.)

 

Kaladin wasn't fighting with a Sword most of the time, though; remember Syl's famous "Oh, that's right, you probably would feel better if I were a Shardmissile, wouldn't you?" line.  Actually, even if I'm remembering where that happened wrong, this only serves to reinforce just how bad Szeth actually is in a duel.  I just realized that I snipped parts of your post here that would be super relevant, but I'm too lazy to add them back in.  Readers should know that they exist!  Just scroll up! 

 

Here's why even a relatively unskilled Shardbearer would be able to fight a supremely skilled Shardbearer to a pause or temporary standstill: because one mistake is death.  Shards share some similar aspects to lightsabers (wow, say that three times fast!)  Just waving one around wildly is enough to panic most people, and cause all the others to approach with care and deliberation.  If Szeth were actually as skilled with a Blade, and Kaladin not, then Szeth should have been able to at least put up a fight.  Instead, it was mostly just Kaladin showing what a Sprenblade can do for the benefit of the readers.

 

About the quote during their duel:

 

 

“You’re wrong,” Kaladin said. “About me. I’m not new to this.”

“You only just acquired your abilities.”

“No. The wind is mine. The sky is mine. They have been mine since childhood. You are the trespasser here. Not me.”

I seem to be in the minority of posters, as I don't interpret it quite so literally.  I don't think that it means that Kaladin has been Surgebinding since his childhood; just that he's always been at home in the sky and in the heights.  The wind and sky call to him, and always have.  Remember all the times that he spent on top of the roof of his home as a child?  He's comfortable in the sky, naturally, in a way that Szeth and others have to learn.  It's not second-nature to him, it is nature.  By contrast, Kaladin has a lot of problems running along the sides of walls, while Szeth seems very comfortable there. 

 

To answer Zea Mays on why Nalan isn't interfering with our main Radiants: the laws apply differently to lighteyes in Alethi and Jah Keved culture.  This would largely absolve them of any guilt.  Beyond that, in the case of Shallan, there's exceptionally good cause to show it was self defense, or defense of others.  Regarding Jasnah, Shallan herself decides during her investigations that what Jasnah did was legally correct.  And being a slave, with absolutely no notoriety and mostly lost and forgotten by all but his immediate masters, Kaladin simply hadn't done anything to attract notice.  This, of course, has changed now--but so too has his eye color, which will likely render any guilty finding of petty theft to be moot.

[dyring]

Point on the endfight.

 

Dalinar does not use stormlight - or atleast not much of it. It is not visible, and his wound does not heal much.

 

The thing is, Szeth does win against Kaladin, only Kaladin heals it, wich Szeth cannot. Add the fact that Kaladins killstrike on Szeth is a gift, Szeth doesent defend. Add Syl´s ability to be both any weapon Kaladin wants, and a shield when needed.

 

Szeth was more skilled in that fight, but Kaladin had so much more power that Szeth´s skill just wasent enough.

 

When Szeth fought Gavilar, Szeth was rather new to the windrunner skillset himself. It is likely that he gained quite abit more skill in the years between Gavilars death and the end of WoR. Add the shardplate there, and its no wonder Gavilar put up a good fight.

Edited September 29, 2014 by dyring

[Moogle]

The thing is, Szeth does win against Kaladin, only Kaladin heals it, wich Szeth cannot. Add the fact that Kaladins killstrike on Szeth is a gift, Szeth doesent defend. Add Syl´s ability to be both any weapon Kaladin wants, and a shield when needed.

 

Szeth was more skilled in that fight, but Kaladin had so much more power that Szeth´s skill just wasent enough.

 

Szeth only hits Kaladin because he's fighting smart. He uses the environment to his advantage:

Szeth dove past him, disappearing into the clouds below, becoming just a shadow. Kaladin tried to trace that shadow, but failed. Szeth burst up beside Kaladin a second later, striking with three quick blows. One took Kaladin in the arm, and he dropped Syl.

 

This isn't swordfighting skill, this is Szeth being quick to improvise and take advantage of the environment. He's never fought before in the sky and he instinctively uses the clouds! He's insanely good at this. I wonder if this is a Skybreaker thing?

 

After that, Kaladin and Szeth have an actual duel where they whack their respective Shards against each other, and Kaladin soundly trounces Szeth, cutting his arm while Szeth gets nothing on him. Szeth runs away to find Dalinar, and Kaladin chases, then Kaladin and Szeth fight again, Kaladin soundly trounces him by breaking his arm and stabbing him with a Shardknife, and then Szeth lets Kaladin kill him.

 

Szeth is really not that good with his Blade, and only 'wins' over Kaladin temporarily because he out-thought him. If he wasn't insane, I almost feel like Szeth might have won that duel because he would have thought of ways to get Kaladin crushed by a falling plateau or something.

 

(Also, I never analyzed Szeth's fighting style in detail before this thread. I like how I can see new things on re-reads thanks to other people making threads like this. I've actually started to like Szeth after re-reading his fight scenes, which is actually a little horrifying now I think on it. He's really smart, and I find his style more interesting than Kaladin's in a lot of ways. Nightblood is a perfect fit, since Nightblood really isn't mean to be wielded, but instead thrown at the enemy. Szeth'll find a lot of use out of that.)

Edited September 29, 2014 by Moogle

[maxal]

Snippy snip snip snip!  (Including some pieces of pertinent argumentation, which changes the overall flow of information, but I wanted to shorten the post.)

 

Kaladin wasn't fighting with a Sword most of the time, though; remember Syl's famous "Oh, that's right, you probably would feel better if I were a Shardmissile, wouldn't you?" line.  Actually, even if I'm remembering where that happened wrong, this only serves to reinforce just how bad Szeth actually is in a duel.  I just realized that I snipped parts of your post here that would be super relevant, but I'm too lazy to add them back in.  Readers should know that they exist!  Just scroll up! 

 

Here's why even a relatively unskilled Shardbearer would be able to fight a supremely skilled Shardbearer to a pause or temporary standstill: because one mistake is death.  Shards share some similar aspects to lightsabers (wow, say that three times fast!)  Just waving one around wildly is enough to panic most people, and cause all the others to approach with care and deliberation.  If Szeth were actually as skilled with a Blade, and Kaladin not, then Szeth should have been able to at least put up a fight.  Instead, it was mostly just Kaladin showing what a Sprenblade can do for the benefit of the readers.

 

So you forgot to quote me adequately? Pffffff. Me pouts

 

I agree with your argumentation it is possible an unskilled shardbearer could win against a more skilled one, out of pure luck. I am, however, reluctant to consider Szeth a poor swordfighter. I agree argumentation could be made on both side, but I still doubt Szeth is as unskilled as you made him be. He did, beat down, numerous shardbearers, Galivar, Dalinar and Adolin. Sure a large part of his success are attributed to his surgebinding abilities: the same way most of Kal success in fights are link to his Nahel bond. So yeah, I can admit Szeth is not as skilled as he likes to believe, but I feel the same about Kal! I mean, each and every fight the guy fought, he had an unfair advantage. We have never seen him fight on pure skill only.

 

I can only conclude that not only Szeth is not as good as he thinks, but this reasoning applies to Kal as well Oh this is going to be unpopular :ph34r:

 

 

 

 

 

I seem to be in the minority of posters, as I don't interpret it quite so literally.  I don't think that it means that Kaladin has been Surgebinding since his childhood; just that he's always been at home in the sky and in the heights.  The wind and sky call to him, and always have.  Remember all the times that he spent on top of the roof of his home as a child?  He's comfortable in the sky, naturally, in a way that Szeth and others have to learn.  It's not second-nature to him, it is nature.  By contrast, Kaladin has a lot of problems running along the sides of walls, while Szeth seems very comfortable there. 

 

 

You have an interesting take. However, I fail to see how sitting on the top of his house and "feeling" the wind gives him advantage in using the surge od Gravitation... Maybe in the long run, but he barely practiced at all....

 

 

Szeth only hits Kaladin because he's fighting smart. He uses the environment to his advantage:

 

This I get. Kal is not the smartest fighter we have met... most of his fights, he wins because he is surgebinding

[maxal]

Dalinar does not use stormlight - or atleast not much of it. It is not visible, and his wound does not heal much.

 

 

Actually, we know Dalinar has been using stormlight sporadically for years now. Now enough to heal his shoulder, but enough to grant him an uncanny advantage such as increased skill, strength and speed despite an injury.

 

The only character we can be 100% sure was not drawing on stormlight during this fight was Adolin: despite being a very good fighter, he was utterly out-classed.

[kaellok]

You have an interesting take. However, I fail to see how sitting on the top of his house and "feeling" the wind gives him advantage in using the surge od Gravitation... Maybe in the long run, but he barely practiced at all....

I was posting a reply on my phone, instead computer like normal, and it was hard enough to get everything mostly right.  After I'd already deleted part of the quote, it was just too much work to add it back in lol.

 

Regarding this, I just see it as someone who has grown up in the desert is going to be better fighting in the desert than someone who didn't.  There are peculiarities to every environment, and I imagine Kaladin being more in tune with those of the sky and wind than Szeth is.  

 

Also, I can definitely buy Kaladin and Szeth both not being nearly as skilled with their weapons as they seem; Surgebinding powers grant them a lot of leeway to be both poorly skilled, but so fast/powerful it doesn't matter.  I mean, there's always at least two ways to open a locked door--one is to pick the lock, and another is to break the door down.  Both can be equally effective, but...

[dyring]

Maxxal - I know and agree that Dalinar have been using minute amounts of stormlights at other times, but it was about that one duel.

 

And in it Dalinar does not use enough for it to have any real effect, while Szeth does.

 

Moogle:

Give me a weapon that will switch between spear, shield sword and axe faster then I can ask it too during a fight, and I with my very limited training in it will beat a swordmaster. It is such an incredibly huge advantage. And using the enviroment is part of the fight, so that doesent change that Szeth had really won at that point if Kaladin didnt have more power.

[Savanorn]

So you forgot to quote me adequately? Pffffff. Me pouts

 

I agree with your argumentation it is possible an unskilled shardbearer could win against a more skilled one, out of pure luck. I am, however, reluctant to consider Szeth a poor swordfighter. I agree argumentation could be made on both side, but I still doubt Szeth is as unskilled as you made him be. He did, beat down, numerous shardbearers, Galivar, Dalinar and Adolin. Sure a large part of his success are attributed to his surgebinding abilities: the same way most of Kal success in fights are link to his Nahel bond. So yeah, I can admit Szeth is not as skilled as he likes to believe, but I feel the same about Kal! I mean, each and every fight the guy fought, he had an unfair advantage. We have never seen him fight on pure skill only.

 

I can only conclude that not only Szeth is not as good as he thinks, but this reasoning applies to Kal as well Oh this is going to be unpopular :ph34r:

 

 

 

I don't think you're following the reasoning here Max, it's not that Szeth isn't good. It's that he's not a master/expert/swordsman. If your opinion proves to be unpopular it's likely because you're not using very good logic. For example. 

 

Those 'numerous Shardbearers'  he beat  he did so due to factors that simply do not relate to his swordsmanship. If you acknowledge, as you do, that Szeth wins these fights because of his Surgebinding then you can't use them as support for his swordsmanship. Basically, Szeth makes up for his lack of skill (any way you cut it, I don't think he's as good as Adolin or Gavilar) with his intelligence, inventiveness and active use of surgebinding. 

 

Now, Szeth having access to the surges and Kaladin having access to the surges (and some degree of added talent) are not the same thing and they throw their actions and achievements into different lights. The biggest one is that Szeth makes a lot of use of his active surgebinding, whereas Kaladin is much more passive.  Kaladin without an ideal is was still good enough to kill highranking lighteyes and a shardbearer sheerly from his passive skill. 

Kaladin fights, for a lot of WoK and WoR, basically as a normal soldier. A really strong, really fast one but he doesn't use lashing liberally. 

Think about Szeth bouncing off walls and throwing rocks at multiples of gravitational force, and then think about Kaladin fighting Helaran or at the Arena. 

 

 

 

 

 

You have an interesting take. However, I fail to see how sitting on the top of his house and "feeling" the wind gives him advantage in using the surge od Gravitation... Maybe in the long run, but he barely practiced at all....

 

 

 

This I get. Kal is not the smartest fighter we have met... most of his fights, he wins because he is surgebinding 

 

I don't think you do, get it I mean. 

 

It's not that Kal isn't smart, it's that Szeth is. 

[maxal]

Maxxal - I know and agree that Dalinar have been using minute amounts of stormlights at other times, but it was about that one duel.

 

And in it Dalinar does not use enough for it to have any real effect, while Szeth does.

 

And I do believe it is highly possible Dalinar was using stormlight during that specific duel.... Not enough to make a significant difference, but enough to nullify the impact of his wound and enough to make him last for a few minutes. Dalinar does not have access to surges at this time in the story but I do believe he is able to draw small amounts of stormlight much like Kaladin was doing in WoK. Remember how he got all the arrows to miss him... before he said any oaths? This ability was caused by his forming Nahel bond and yes Dalinar is forming a bond with the Stormfather at that point in the story (and has been for many years).

 

I actually think it is highly unlikely Dalinar is not using stormlight during that fight. It is the only way he could have managed to keep up with Szeth, much like it is highly possible Galivar was using stormlight as well when he fought Szeth....

 

 

I don't think you're following the reasoning here Max, it's not that Szeth isn't good. It's that he's not a master/expert/swordsman. If your opinion proves to be unpopular it's likely because you're not using very good logic. For example.

 

 

Those 'numerous Shardbearers'  he beat  he did so due to factors that simply do not relate to his swordsmanship. If you acknowledge, as you do, that Szeth wins these fights because of his Surgebinding then you can't use them as support for his swordsmanship. Basically, Szeth makes up for his lack of skill (any way you cut it, I don't think he's as good as Adolin or Gavilar) with his intelligence, inventiveness and active use of surgebinding.

 

Actually, I was mostly arguing against the premise that Kaladin won because, despite being a poor swordsman, he still was better than Szeth. I have a hard time taking this in as Kaladin is not a good swordsman... He has limited practice and from what we saw, he displayed little skill. Based on pure swordsmanship, Szeth has to be better than Kaladin. Szeth is also more experience than Kal in terms of surgebinding. These two facts are causing me to have issues digesting how Kal could beat Szeth so easily.

 

He's had advantages in this fight, true, but I am still trouble over how skill and experience did not weight more in the overall balance.

 

The next part of my argumentation was more or less about Kaladin's overall skill.....

 

Kaladin fights, for a lot of WoK and WoR, basically as a normal soldier. A really strong, really fast one but he doesn't use lashing liberally. 

Think about Szeth bouncing off walls and throwing rocks at multiples of gravitational force, and then think about Kaladin fighting Helaran or at the Arena. 

Now, Szeth having access to the surges and Kaladin having access to the surges (and some degree of added talent) are not the same thing and they throw their actions and achievements into different lights. The biggest one is that Szeth makes a lot of use of his active surgebinding, whereas Kaladin is much more passive.  Kaladin without an ideal is was still good enough to kill highranking lighteyes and a shardbearer sheerly from his passive skill. 

 

We have never seen Kaladin fight without his advantages.

 

Yes, he killed a shardbearer, but he was drawing on his Nahel bond at the time: he already had the advantage of increased speed, strength and skill. Would have Kal managed the throwing knife kill without Syl, even if he was unaware of her at the time? I am not sure.

 

Which highranked lighteyes has he killed? Those with Amaram's army? These were the poor one in terms of fighting skill...

 

The only time we saw Kal try to fight without his advantages if after his injury, when he lost Syl. The spear felt wrong to him, it did not have the same feeling and he couldn't summon his usual grace. True, he was injured and in a bad mental place, but I found his internal discussion telling: some of his extraordinary skill is derived from the Nahel bond and it is been so for a long time.

 

 

It's not that Kal isn't smart, it's that Szeth is. 

 

Kaladin is not a smart fighter. In most of his fights, he relies on either his surgebinding or his increased agility/speed/strength/healing to win, never his wits. Szeth, on the other hand, is a very smart fighter: he uses every advantages he has which is why I am still bummed Kal got the better of him. Kal tends to just jump in and make a mess... which works because he is a Radiant.