Consolidated Arcanum Table

[Connerjade]

Hello,

I am a long time lurker, but I am not really the best at contributing in general. I was looking for a consolidated list of things that I thought that I had found, or that general consensus had decided, so I chose to write a spreadsheet that had everything. (Sorry, can't figure out how to just post the spreadsheet, so I guess I will type what I have so it is still a consolidated point?)

Essentially the surges that I can figure out are:

1. Gravity

2. Adhesion

3. Flame

4. Life

5. Travel

6. Transformation

7-10 Unknown

I have the lady who does regrowth in the 4th order, Vev.

Things I Decided

Jasnah’s second surge is travel.

I essentially argue this out of the realization that Jasnah can soulcast at range, which appears to be highly unusual. When Jasnah does her first soulcasting of the initial thief (turning him into fire) she touches him.

She calmly reached her hand out—fingers splayed—and pressed it against his chest as he swung a knife.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 533). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

However, on the final soulcasting she essentially shoots lightning bolts of transformation. In doing so, she does something that we do not see at any other point in time (and receive virtually no confirmation that anyone else can do this).

Jasnah took a deep breath, closing her eyes, lifting her hand above her head. Shallan held her safehand to her breast, stunned, confused. Terrified. Stormlight shot from Jasnah’s hand like twin bolts of lightning, symmetrical. One struck each of the footpads and they popped, puffing into smoke.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 534). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Shallan attempts to learn how to soulcast and thinks

“The woman just closed her eyes and touched something, Soulcasting it. Smoke, crystal, and fire were what this Soulcaster was best at.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 565). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.”

In doing so, we see the usual way that soulcasting works, namely by touch. Shallan persists in thinking that touching an object is important for soulcasting. Kabsal, someone who is theoretically far more used to soulcasting argues the same.

“It’s true,” he said. “I’ve heard it from several ardents. There’s so much shadow and ritual surrounding Soulcasters. They’re kept mysterious, aren’t used where people can see. But the truth is, there’s not much to them. You just put one on, press your hand against something, and tap a gemstone with your finger. It works that simply.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 597). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

The biggest argument against her casting being from a combination of travel and transformation is the argument that Shallan would be able to do it as well, however, when Shallan casts the Goblet into blood, she is touching it as well.

She put one hand to the side, steadying herself on the nightstand, fingers brushing the large glass goblet that sat there. … Beside her, the goblet on her nightstand melted, the glass becoming red liquid, dropping the three spheres inside to the nightstand’s flooded top. The red liquid poured over the sides of the nightstand, splashing to the floor.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 643-644). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Is there anything that I am missing on this?

Jasnah is in order 5.

Full topic on this

This essentially covers every point that I wish to say.

Regrowth Occurs in Order 4

Under my current theory, which has travel belonging to Order 4 and 5, the lady who uses regrowth seems to belong to Order 4. Firstly, I am a strong believer in the attributes of an order being of paramount importance and order 4’s secondary attribute happens to be healing, which makes sense. Also, while the blue Knight Radiant (presumably Windrunner) was extremely noticeable in coming in, she simply appears kneeling next to Dalinar, who is preoccupied and tired, but I personally would argue that he is capable of noticing a glowing, impressive knight radiant walking or showing up in any normal manner. However, she simply appears.

Dalinar pulled himself to Taffa. She was alive, though her side was torn and flayed. Seeli tugged at her, weeping. Need to…do something… Dalinar thought dully. “Be at peace,” a voice said. Dalinar lurched, turning to see a woman in delicate Shardplate kneeling beside him, holding something bright. It was a topaz entwined with a heliodor, both set into a fine metal framework, each stone as big as a man’s hand.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 303). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

I argue that this is teleportation. Which makes sense for someone with access to Travel, giving them the most efficient means to get around.

Dustbringers are Order 2

This is tenuous, given all the discussion between whether or not Dustbringers are Voidbringers or not.

1: Kalak seems to be proud/impressed with the Dustbringers, hence he says that their work was done well.

2: Dust, visually, can easily be seen as an opaque gas, which is the essence of Order 2. Furthermore, Smoke, the specific essence of Order 2, is what emanates from their work.

3: Can someone help remind me if Dustbringers show up anytime but in the Prelude? A search brings up nothing, but I don’t recall where it is, but I basically had an image of napalm covering the ground with them, hence adhesion and flame being their surges. It is possible that gravity and adhesion should be swapped.

Smoke curled from the occasional patches of growth or heaps of burning corpses. Even some sections of rock smoldered. The Dustbringers had done their work well.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 15). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

Stoneward

Umm, we know little about Stonewards. Their plate is amber. I assume that they have something to do with stone (which is why I put them into order 8, order of stone).The wiki has Stonewards as having regrowth, which isn’t what I have down. However, I don’t know where that idea came from. If someone would like to tell me, I will change the theories that I have accordingly.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Connerjade

[Telcontar]

Hey and welcome if this is still adequate if you have been around for a while (probably longer than I have myself )

Essentially the surges that I can figure out are:

1. Gravity

2. Adhesion

3. Flame

4. Life

5. Travel

6. Transformation

7-10 Unknown

there is something about Surges we have to keep in mind. Actually there's two things.

1. Surges are elemental forces which can be manipulated. For the two confirmed Surges (gravity and atmospheric pressure (=adhesion) this is no problem. Also Brandon has referred to atomic or electromagnetic forces.

2. Surges may have common names. We don't know if Rosharians have enough understanding of physics to really understand the elemental forces, so they gave them names. To tell those apart from the forces Brandon seems to use capitals.

Based on this I'll review your list.

Nr. 3 - could very well be temperature. After all if you heat up a stone just to some thousand degrees it will begin to smolder eventually. I think this is what you are referring to. (Side-thought. The use Stormlight cools things down. We meet this phenomena with Szeth and Kaladin while putting Stormlight into an object, Shallan while Soulcasting and Dalinar being healed.)

Nr.4 - you're reffering to Regrowth I believe. It has been argued that the Surge could be life indeed. I am not really convinced if that is an elemental force (which seem to me to be much more physical) but it could be. We don't know enough yet.

Nr.5 - I believe it has been confirmed that Travel was a Surge or at least a power of the KR. I think that Travel is but the use of a Surge, Travel being the name (like in WoT). Ideas of how to travel using an elemental force could include time or some wormhole-like stuff, dissolving matter and fitting it back together at another place making it manipulation of atomic forces.

Nr.6 - As Nr.5 this is confirmed as being a Surge. It's Soulcasting but whether Soulcasting is the power using Transformation or just another name, I don't know. My guess is, that Transformation is yet another Rosharian name for a Surge. It would be manipulation of atoms, like I proposed for Travel, only brining the atoms back together in a different configuration.

Nr. 7-10 - Well, there is much we still have to know. However I do believe that time is a Surge. I remeber having read somewhere that Brandon once said that the magic systems all share a common base (Adonalsium...) and that the Shards just use them differently. This brings me to the conclusion that what is possible in one magic system can be an indication of what is possible in another. We've seen that time can be manipulated on Scadrial, so, why not here. It has been proposed for both Regrowth and Travel.

As to other elemental forces, as I said above, electromagnetism is probably in it. What about light?

Surges are what determine our lives. Gravity holds us down, pressure makes that we don't dissolve like our lungs would do in space, electromagnetic forces make atoms cling together, that kind of stuff.

The biggest argument against her casting being from a combination of travel and transformation is the argument that Shallan would be able to do it as well, however, when Shallan casts the Goblet into blood, she is touching it as well.

Shallan cannot do it, because she does not share the Surge used for Travel with Jasnah (they're not in the same order). They share the Surge used for Transformation, that excludes that they share another one.

Regrowth Occurs in Order 4

Under my current theory, which has travel belonging to Order 4 and 5, the lady who uses regrowth seems to belong to Order 4. Firstly, I am a strong believer in the attributes of an order being of paramount importance and order 4’s secondary attribute happens to be healing, which makes sense. Also, while the blue Knight Radiant (presumably Windrunner) was extremely noticeable in coming in, she simply appears kneeling next to Dalinar, who is preoccupied and tired, but I personally would argue that he is capable of noticing a glowing, impressive knight radiant walking or showing up in any normal manner. However, she simply appears.

While you are a strong beliver in the attributes of an order being important, I am convinced they are not in the least important to what Surges they can manipulate.

I believe that the attributes are simply what attracts the spren. The Surges which come along being independent. I just don't know how manipulation of gravity and pressure are connected to Protecting and Leading. And: living along the attributes is simply what can make you a KR. Surgebinding existed before the KR. There were probably people who could use Regrowth well before the KR were formed along the Heraldic attributes.

I myself are more inclined to the woman using Regrowth being of the Stonewardens (nr.9 actually) according to her amber Shardplate which matches the colour of Topaz and in the Recreance vision we see that Stonewardens do have amber-glowing Shardplates.

I agree with her appearing being Travel. In my opinion Windrunners and Stonewardens constituted the KR's task-force because they were the KR who were most apt to appear somewhere fast enough to protect.

Dustbringers are Order 2

This is tenuous, given all the discussion between whether or not Dustbringers are Voidbringers or not.

1: Kalak seems to be proud/impressed with the Dustbringers, hence he says that their work was done well.

2: Dust, visually, can easily be seen as an opaque gas, which is the essence of Order 2. Furthermore, Smoke, the specific essence of Order 2, is what emanates from their work.

3: Can someone help remind me if Dustbringers show up anytime but in the Prelude? A search brings up nothing, but I don’t recall where it is, but I basically had an image of napalm covering the ground with them, hence adhesion and flame being their surges. It is possible that gravity and adhesion should be swapped.

I agree with point 1

I disagree with point 2 (as told before because Essences just don't have anything to do with which Surges you can manipulate)

As to point 3: The only mention of Dustbringers is indeed in the Prelude. If temperature is a Surge, than I hope the ones who can use it have something to do it at a safe distance. Because if you heat a rock until it smolders, you should better not touch it in the process. If those could launch Stormlight as Jasnah does with the murderers, that would help a lot.

Stoneward

Umm, we know little about Stonewards. Their plate is amber. I assume that they have something to do with stone (which is why I put them into order 8, order of stone).The wiki has Stonewards as having regrowth, which isn’t what I have down. However, I don’t know where that idea came from. If someone would like to tell me, I will change the theories that I have accordingly.

I think you're confusing order 8 and 9. Nr.9 is the Stonewardens. They were installed conforming to the image of Talenel. Their plate glows amber, according to the colour of a topaz, their associated stone.

The wiki has them having Regrowth because the woman using Regrowth had a plate glowing amber. Also Stonewardens seem to like to appear with Windrunners.

OK, hope this helps a little

Edited March 3, 2012 by Telcontar

[Windrunner]

I've always wondered if perhaps the Dustbringers are the 8th Order of Knights Radiant. When Kalak mentions them, it has always seemed to me that he's saying, "My guys did a good job". Kalak's Soulcasting property is metal though. I'm not sure that dust and smoke are similar enough, the connection seems tenuous to me. It says smoke,fog, and opaque gas. Dust isn't really close enough to a gas in my opinion, but I could be wrong.

I think its more likely that the Dustbringers are a member of the Voidbinding equivalent of the Knights Radiant. Right after Kalak's mention that they did their work well (which can also be interpreted in a bad way) he says "But I survived". It seems to me that this implies that they were trying to kill him. Also the two names of the Orders that we have seen so far for sure are Windrunners and Stonewards. Neither of them has that sound of destruction the name Dustbringer implies to me.

[Connerjade]

Surges

3- I admit that the name that I chose was somewhat haphazard. I was really looking for something heat related. Temperature works, so does heat for that matter.

4- Firstly, I acknowledge that this probably belongs in 9 (Or 8/10)

I believe that the surge is life primarily due to what physically happens to Dalinar. The two ideas for a surge responsible for what happens to Dalinar seem to be time or life. However, if time is the appropriate answer, then it seems as though the Knight Radiant is needlessly healing him overmuch. When Dalinar is healed he notes

He felt strong and healthy, as if he’d just awakened from a good night’s sleep.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 304). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

If she were simply healing him by reversing time, it would seem wiser to rewind him 2 or 3 hours, which would still leave him tired from the day. Instead, using time, she rewound him to the morning which seems needlessly wasteful with regrowth (since she did not expect him to fight with her), and we happen to know that she is at least somewhat serious with conserving regrowth as a resource.

“Heb,” Taffa said. She seemed very concerned. “You were the one who promised me that the Radiants would come protect us, just before you went out searching for Seeli. Is your mind still muddled? Lady knight, could you heal him again?”

“I should save Regrowth for others who might be wounded,” the woman said, glancing at the village.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (p. 306). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

If she wouldn’t heal a man who didn’t know what year it was, or where he was, in the face of his concerned wife, I doubt she is in the practice of regularly over-healing. However, if she simply imparted healing into his body, then the excess healing seems less potent. (Over-healing enough to wake someone up as opposed to over-healing someone by 5+ hours)

5- Travel has been very, very nearly confirmed as a surge. Brandon said

I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing.

. Since the other three are confirmed surges, I am inclined to believe that Travel is as well (as opposed to an application of a surge like the lashings or regrowth appears to be).

And I apologize for my phrasing on Shallan’s inability to soulcast at range. I was trying to say that she could not, but I was lazy in my typing, my mistake.

7-10 - I agree that time seems to be a likely surge, and one that I like the image of. I can think of a bunch of different possible surges, but as has been said, we just don’t know enough to accurately speculate.

Why Attributes May Be Important

Unimportant for Regrowth, since I acknowledge that this belongs in 9, but as a point in general, I think attributes may be important.

This is a takeoff of another idea, that Nohadon amended the Magic system to formalize the Ideals of the Knights Radiant. In doing so, he may have (likely did) assigned the Knights the specific attributes that belong to each order. Meaning, that Surgebinders existed who had the surges of Adhesion and Gravity. However, Nohadon decided that those surgebinders needed to be connected to the attributes of protecting and leading.

Now, in doing this, it seems as though it would make sense that Nohadon would, when there is a chance, make these Ideals (and by definition attributes) sensible and logical.

Dustbringer

As far as dust being an opaque gas, I was thinking along the lines of a visual representation of a dust devil or something like that. If you think of that, then it appears both gaseous and is technically made of dust. In fact, I believe that as a rule, the names of the knights are related to the colloquial representation of their powers rather than anything more specific. Wind runners do very little with air, but reading the descriptions of fights, it visually looks as though they are using wind all the time.

I think this continues into dustbringer, in that they might not even have dust under their control, but the cloud that appears when they are around looks like they brought dust (admitted speculation that their essence in some way becomes visible when they do whatever they do for their transportation).

As far as their being a Knight Radiant or a Void version, it basically comes down to which is more important, the sense of pride in “The dustbringers had done their work well” or the implication that they were trying to kill Kalak in the “But I survived”? Either can easily be explained away once we know more.

As far as Dustbringer being a menacing name, I just don’t think it sounds that menacing. It is frightening due to their work, but the name itself isn’t particularly scary unless you really like being clean. To bring dust doesn’t seem as though anything is being destroyed, but that can just be me.

[ReaderAt2046]

Surges

3- I admit that the name that I chose was somewhat haphazard. I was really looking for something heat related. Temperature works, so does heat for that matter.

4- Firstly, I acknowledge that this probably belongs in 9 (Or 8/10)

I believe that the surge is life primarily due to what physically happens to Dalinar. The two ideas for a surge responsible for what happens to Dalinar seem to be time or life. However, if time is the appropriate answer, then it seems as though the Knight Radiant is needlessly healing him overmuch. When Dalinar is healed he notes

If she were simply healing him by reversing time, it would seem wiser to rewind him 2 or 3 hours, which would still leave him tired from the day. Instead, using time, she rewound him to the morning which seems needlessly wasteful with regrowth (since she did not expect him to fight with her), and we happen to know that she is at least somewhat serious with conserving regrowth as a resource.

If she wouldn’t heal a man who didn’t know what year it was, or where he was, in the face of his concerned wife, I doubt she is in the practice of regularly over-healing. However, if she simply imparted healing into his body, then the excess healing seems less potent. (Over-healing enough to wake someone up as opposed to over-healing someone by 5+ hours)

5- Travel has been very, very nearly confirmed as a surge. Brandon said . Since the other three are confirmed surges, I am inclined to believe that Travel is as well (as opposed to an application of a surge like the lashings or regrowth appears to be).

And I apologize for my phrasing on Shallan’s inability to soulcast at range. I was trying to say that she could not, but I was lazy in my typing, my mistake.

7-10 - I agree that time seems to be a likely surge, and one that I like the image of. I can think of a bunch of different possible surges, but as has been said, we just don’t know enough to accurately speculate.

Why Attributes May Be Important

Unimportant for Regrowth, since I acknowledge that this belongs in 9, but as a point in general, I think attributes may be important.

This is a takeoff of another idea, that Nohadon amended the Magic system to formalize the Ideals of the Knights Radiant. In doing so, he may have (likely did) assigned the Knights the specific attributes that belong to each order. Meaning, that Surgebinders existed who had the surges of Adhesion and Gravity. However, Nohadon decided that those surgebinders needed to be connected to the attributes of protecting and leading.

Now, in doing this, it seems as though it would make sense that Nohadon would, when there is a chance, make these Ideals (and by definition attributes) sensible and logical.

Dustbringer

As far as dust being an opaque gas, I was thinking along the lines of a visual representation of a dust devil or something like that. If you think of that, then it appears both gaseous and is technically made of dust. In fact, I believe that as a rule, the names of the knights are related to the colloquial representation of their powers rather than anything more specific. Wind runners do very little with air, but reading the descriptions of fights, it visually looks as though they are using wind all the time.

I think this continues into dustbringer, in that they might not even have dust under their control, but the cloud that appears when they are around looks like they brought dust (admitted speculation that their essence in some way becomes visible when they do whatever they do for their transportation).

As far as their being a Knight Radiant or a Void version, it basically comes down to which is more important, the sense of pride in “The dustbringers had done their work well” or the implication that they were trying to kill Kalak in the “But I survived”? Either can easily be explained away once we know more.

As far as Dustbringer being a menacing name, I just don’t think it sounds that menacing. It is frightening due to their work, but the name itself isn’t particularly scary unless you really like being clean. To bring dust doesn’t seem as though anything is being destroyed, but that can just be me.

I think Dustbringers must be order 2,3, or 4. Primarily because we know Dustbringers do something that involves a lot of heat, and it seems silly for the Surge of Heat or Temperature or whatever to belong to any essence other than the the third. So Order 3 has this surge, and either 2 or 4 does as well. Since Smoke and Fire both seem like things that could be associate with Dust, i'm guessing Dustbringers are the second Order.

[Aethling]

Maybe you have to take into account the different forms of soulcasting. Jasnah has the ability to do it without the device, but others have to use the device to do it. There could be a difference between the two.

[Odium's_Shard]

Maybe you have to take into account the different forms of soulcasting. Jasnah has the ability to do it without the device, but others have to use the device to do it. There could be a difference between the two.

I believe; though I am a bit rusty, that 'Soulcasters' as in the objects have nothing to do with innate ability to Soulcast. Kasbal mentions that Soulcasting (as in with the objects) is easy:

(Not exact, don't have copy to hand)

You just have to put on the Soulcaster, touch the object and use the gem.

And so most of us have come to the conclusion that a Soulcaster is a fabrial that facilitates Soulcasting, while Shallan and Jasnah both have the innate Surge of Transformation, in which travel to Shadesmar is necessary to activate the power of the gem, and Transform the object.

However this raises the obvious problems with; is there then a fabrial that facilitates Lashings, etc.

Hope it helped.

[Telcontar]

I believe Soulcasters (the fabrials) are the only fabrials who survived this long (if there ever had been others) because how essential they are for surviving on Roshar. Of course you can survive without them, but it's hard.

And most important, they are besides Shardplates and -blades the only means to really wield power. If you have Soulcasters at hand, you can provide armies with food, create barracks for soldiers, all this stuff.

@Connerjade

Surges

4 - the idea about time being the Surge used to heal someone is to speed up the natural healing process of your body. By the description given by Dalinar, the KR puts Stormlight into him, which he feels all over his body. (the cold feeling. so if you heal one leg you automatically heal the fatigue away. After all the human body heals best when sleeping, so the feel as if Dalinar had awakened from a good night's sleep could be explained this way.

As I said, I don't reject the possibility of life being a Surge, but I don't think it likely. Life is just too much a complex process to be an elemental force. Also: how do you heal by using life? do you create the missing flesh?

Against time being the Surge used for Regrowth: if you only speed up a healing process, then you could not regrow missing members. The name Regrowth seems to imply exactly this...

Feel free to convince me

5 - As long as Brandon doesn't say explicitly that Travel is a Surge and not just an "ability", I'll still believe that it's the name given to the Surge (being the elemental force). I don't say it's not the Surge, but that we still have to find the elemental force. Same for Transformation. It very possible though, that I overstate the importance of the Surges being elemental forces.

attributes

If you presume that Nohadon did indeed have his say in forming the KR after the ideals of the Heralds, I see, why there could be a link between Surges and attributes. Still I reject this idea. I'm actually working on a post explaining why.

However, you have a point with the names of the KR's orders. Wind or Air (zephyr) is the first Essence. And the first order is called Windrunners. I think the name comes from them flying around. Either jumping with only 45% of your weight Lashed downwards, which makes you very very light and you can jump these impressive jumps. Or by Lashing half your weight downwards, which makes you weightless and you use atmospheric pressure to create wind which will blow you whereever you want. (This being a sort of Stormriding).

Either way, to a normal person, it would seem as using Wind.

So, again, there may be some link between Essences and Surges. But not with attributes.

But you made me think more closely about my ideas, thank you.

[ReaderAt2046]

As I said, I don't reject the possibility of life being a Surge, but I don't think it likely. Life is just too much a complex process to be an elemental force. Also: how do you heal by using life? do you create the missing flesh?

The Surge of Life is the natural biochemical energy that is responsible for the ordinary healing and working of your body. So Regrowth supercharges the body's natural healing powers in a manner analogous to gold Feruchemy.

[Odium's_Shard]

High Prelan, Canton of Literature, Walking Encyclopedia of Cosmere Terms.

Can I officially suggest this addition to your description?

[Inevitable]

The Surge of Life is the natural biochemical energy that is responsible for the ordinary healing and working of your body. So Regrowth supercharges the body's natural healing powers in a manner analogous to gold Feruchemy.

It's not important though.

I mean, sort of yes, but it's just a series of chemical reactions.

The confirmed Surges are pressure, matter [transformation], and gravity.

These are fundamental components of the Universe. "Life" is, as far as the Universe is concerned, a wholly unimportant side-effect of other forces. It is not, in any way, relevant to the grander scheme of things.

It just doesn't make any sense putting it with Gravity and the likes.

A lot of this was recently discussed in the Regrowth thread actually. I also mentioned my own reasons for why I think there's a Time Surge there (in short; Dalinar's visions of the past).

[Aiken Frost]

These are fundamental components of the Universe. "Life" is, as far as the Universe is concerned, a wholly unimportant side-effect of other forces.

In our universe it is. Supposedly.

You cant say the same about the Cosmere.

[Inevitable]

There's been no real evidence that it is.

There ARE those Cognitive and Spiritual things. But that has, by definition, nothing to do with the physical body, and therefore Regrowth.

So while the mind/spirit and actions of the living may have profound importance in the cosmere, the body does not. The body is just a collection of biochemical reactions, hardly an "elemental force" worthy of a surge. Sanderson has, both in Mistborn and here, made a clear effort to produce almost scientific magic systems. If this were to be upheld I can't see any way Life could be a surge.

Something that's just occured to me: It's argued that Time is not the Surge involved in regrowth, however we know that the KR orders all possessed two surges. Could Regrowth be a product of Time and Soulcasting, which we've already seen to have healing properties?

[Odium's_Shard]

A lot of this was recently discussed in the Regrowth thread actually. I also mentioned my own reasons for why I think there's a Time Surge there (in short; Dalinar's visions of the past).

For this, I am pretty sure its certain that the only reason that Dalinar experiences these visions is as a kind of 'videolog' left by Honor before his Shattering that is activated in an individual when they portray the exact attributes Honor looks for, to warn him about the coming Desolation.

Something that's just occured to me: It's argued that Time is not the Surge involved in regrowth, however we know that the KR orders all possessed two surges. Could Regrowth be a product of Time and Soulcasting, which we've already seen to have healing properties?

This is very plausible indeed. Good catch. I will now argue it based on the attributes of the Orders. Because we believe Jasnah is in Order 5, Palah, which is also likely, then it must have access to the Transformation Surge. If Order 4, Vev, which has the attribute 'Healing' (which seems to fit the saying 'time is the best medicine') had the Surge of Time shared with Palah, then Order 5 technically has access to both Transformation and Time as its two Surges. This would fit nicely with Palah's attributes of Wise/Giving, with Wise being the careful use of this conformed Healing ability, and Giving being the emotional use of the ability to spontaneously Heal.

[Connerjade]

Minor note that Palah is Learned and giving.

As noted above, I think it is more likely that she has travel, since that explains an ability that we have seen out of her (namely ranged soulcasting). Giving time to Order 4 only explains regrowth which is an ability that I don't believe she is supposed to have access to (since that would mean she is a StoneWarden).

[Odium's_Shard]

Regrowth isn't necessarily the ability of the Stonewards. It has been speculated, and would surely be useful, but it isn't a given until the Stonewards are completely described in canon.

[hoser]

... I myself are more inclined to the woman using Regrowth being of the Stonewardens (nr.9 actually) according to her amber Shardplate which matches the colour of Topaz and in the Recreance vision we see that Stonewardens do have amber-glowing Shardplates.

I agree with her appearing being Travel. ...

I think you're confusing order 8 and 9. Nr.9 is the Stonewardens. They were installed conforming to the image of Talenel. Their plate glows amber, according to the colour of a topaz, their associated stone.

...

I am with Telcontar on this point.

I believe that the amber woman knight was using the fabrial for Regrowth. I believe an analysis of the Midnight Essence vision reveals more abilities. The way the woman shows up could be travel, but travel might be done with a fabrial, rather than an inherent Stonewarden ability.

How do they know that the midnight essence is there? The knights must have a detection ability of some sort. Syl also detects the proximity of the people on the Shattered plains. There is a fabrial in the Shinovar interlude that does detection. I think Brandon is laying out Chekhovian guns. The knights could be doing detection with a fabrial, of course, but I think it is an ability of some knights (but I don't know the order).

There is also a point in that vision where one of the knights seems to pause, then quotes another knight who is clearly not present. I think this is communication. Communication could be done via fabrial or an inherent ability of the fully powered plate, but it could also be a surgebinding ability peculiar to two orders and further shared via fabrial.

A possibility to consider is also the "binding" part of surgebinding. Syl the honorspren binds, which may be part of the intent of Honor. Gravity and pressure surges operate by binding things. One could argue that teleportation binds someone to a different place. Transformation/soulcasting actually works by "binding" the person to Shadesmar. It may be possible to look at all the surges that the radiants use as bindings of various types, which may help suss them out.

Dustbringing produces smoke, which naturally leads to thinking of fire. But someone pointed out to me that smoke would also result from the explosions you could get from loosening molecular bonds. On reflection, dustbringers seems like an odd name for people who produce fire. In addition, Jasnah can already transform things to flame, so I am inclined to think that dustbringing must be something else.

And in chapter 59, it is suggested that KR could:

make stone melt by looking at it. And move great distances in a single heartbeat. And command the sunlight.

The melting could be transformation (without touch?) or dustbringing or something else entirely. The travel is obvious by now. Is "command the sunlight" another possible surge (akin to lightweaving, maybe)?

Hope this helps (apologies for the length).

Edited March 5, 2012 by hoser

[Odium's_Shard]

I believe that the amber woman knight was using the fabrial for Regrowth. I believe an analysis of the Midnight Essence vision reveals more abilities. The way the woman shows up could be travel, but travel might be done with a fabrial, rather than an inherent Stonewarden ability.

How do they know that the midnight essence is there? The knights must have a detection ability of some sort. Syl also detects the proximity of the people on the Shattered plains. There is a fabrial in the Shinovar interlude that does detection. I think Brandon is laying out Chekhovian guns. The knights could be doing detection with a fabrial, of course, but I think it is an ability of some knights (but I don't know the order).

I think this really hits something.

In Navani's notes, she mentions that a spren must be bound in the particular cut and type of gem to produce an effect. Lets go through the effects we have seen in fabrials, and link them to an ability. In my mind, every effect produced by a fabrial is related to a Surge that a KR could perform.

Firstly, the strengthening effect necessary to make Shardbows. This, for me, may be clearly linked to an ability of Stonewards.

Obviously, the Soulcasters. Clear link to the Transformation Surge. (As a side note, can anyone reference whether it needs to be equipped with an Emerald/Garnet [the two gems of the theorized Soulcasting Orders] at all times to function? I'll discuss later).

Thirdly, the Heliodor detection device in the Interlude in Shinovar. Makes me think (just because of the heliodor) this as a Surge of Ishi, and seems to lend to the 'Guiding' (discovering) Secondary Attribute. Purely speculated by gem type.

Almost done with the fabrials that I can remember, would greatly appreciate any more examples anyone can think of, but I remember Navani demonstrating a heat fabrial (I think, I need to look at my copy again to be certain) to somebody, I think Dalinar and Adolin. To me, just because of the obvious link of heat -> fire, I would link this to Chach (Order 3) simply because of the Soulcasting Property of this Order (fire). Also, at this point, you might need to be referring to this table for the information I'm using.

Lastly, a note about the side note I made to do with Soulcasters. I asked whether they needed a garnet/emerald at all times to function, and I will expand on this. So, a Soulcaster is a fabrial. A fabrial needs a cut and typed gem to function, with (seemingly) a spren trapped within. So, in order to imitate the Transformation Surge, I assume the type necessary would be either a garnet or an emerald (as it has been theorized that these are the two KR Soulcasting Orders). Obviously, they would also need to be touching other gems to facilitate the transformation, but I thought this might be important.

[hoser]

... would greatly appreciate any more examples anyone can think of, ...

Spanreeds, which could relate to a communication ability or action at a distance (telekinesis?).

[Odium's_Shard]

Of course! Of course! Not to jinx it, but, derp. That was my own fault. Thankyou for pointing it out, however.

Let's see. I'm sure it would be an exceptionally useful logistical tool for one of the KR to be purely 'behind-the-scenes'. I think someone else mentioned this during the Recreance discussion, that we only see two KR Orders at the Recreance. It is my belief this is because the other Orders, like the Soulcasters, and for me Order 10 and one other Order, were purely logistical.

As for the Surge and Order of this 'Telekinesis' Surge, as I think (?) it's a ruby that a spanreed requires, I would then place it in Order 3 (as this is the order with a ruby as the Gem Focus).

Anything else that I have stupidly missed would be greatly appreciated.

[Inevitable]

For this, I am pretty sure its certain that the only reason that Dalinar experiences these visions is as a kind of 'videolog' left by Honor before his Shattering that is activated in an individual when they portray the exact attributes Honor looks for, to warn him about the coming Desolation.

My personal opinion is that part of it is a videolog. Most notably the vision where Honor talks to him for more than a few words.

The REST of it isn't a log. Dalinar clearly shows that he can interact with the visions. Since Honor is dead by this point, he cannot be manipulating it to make sense in that context, or he could respond to Dalinar's questions. Thus I conclude that Dalinar is being subjected to a Time Surge (that may or may not be an ability of his own) that is showing him possible pasts. Specifically, a key event, chosen by Honor, then branches into whatever path that describes how that period would have gone had Dalinar actually been in control. A sort of varient of Malatium, but for the past and with the ability to control what you see. This enables Dalinar to extract far more information from the visions that if he were simply watching them play out.

[Odium's_Shard]

Your right, it doesn't quite fit the bill of 'videolog'.

However, for all we know, this might be within the power of Honor to create this dynamic scenario. As it doesn't go on forever, Honor must have chosen a point for it to end, meaning that he either controlled the Highstorms that brought them on, or that he perceived of every possible ending to the Midnight Essence extract Dalinar experienced. Most likely the former, but I wouldn't put anything past a Shard.

[ReaderAt2046]

It's not important though.

I mean, sort of yes, but it's just a series of chemical reactions.

The confirmed Surges are pressure, matter [transformation], and gravity.

These are fundamental components of the Universe. "Life" is, as far as the Universe is concerned, a wholly unimportant side-effect of other forces. It is not, in any way, relevant to the grander scheme of things.

It just doesn't make any sense putting it with Gravity and the likes.

A lot of this was recently discussed in the Regrowth thread actually. I also mentioned my own reasons for why I think there's a Time Surge there (in short; Dalinar's visions of the past).

Pressure isn't a fundamental force either, it's a side-effect of molecular distribution. And the Surge of Transformation works by manipulating chemical bonds. Furthermore, the enhancemnet of these biochemical processes is almost universal in Shard-magics. Pewter and Tin Allomancy both enhance the natural biochemical processes. Gold Feruchemy stores "healing", which is almost exactly the same thing as the Surge of Life. Cadmium and bendalloy feruchemy both manipulte biochemical reactions, as does tium feruchemy. Aditionally, Elantrians, Surgebinders, and Awakeners all gain enhanced healing as an aspect of their power.

I think it highly probable that Life is something that Shard-magics will affect.

Edited March 5, 2012 by ReaderAt2046

[Odium's_Shard]

Pressure isn't a fundamental force either, it's a side-effect of molecular distribution. And the Surge of Transformation works by manipulating chemical bonds. Furthermore, the enhancemnet of these biochemical processes is almost universal in Shard-magics. Pewter and Tin Allomancy both enhance the natural biochemical processes. Gold Feruchemy stores "healing", which is almost exactly the same thing as the Surge of Life. Cadmium and bendalloy feruchemy both manipulte biochemical reactions, as does tium feruchemy. Aditionally, Elantrians, Surgebinders, and Awakeners all gain enhanced healing as an aspect of their power.

I think it highly probable that Life is something that Shard-magics will affect.

I think what he meant was that they might affect it, but it might not be direct as in to make life, or to alter life itself. Also, how would a Surge of Life be described? Does it 'distribute' Life?

[ReaderAt2046]

Also, how would a Surge of Life be described? Does it 'distribute' Life?

No. In the same way that the Surge of Gravity is the force that pulls things towards the ground, the Surge of Life is the force that keeps your body running and is responsible for natural healing.