Suvudu Cage Match 2012

[Arcanist Lupus]

I still contend that such a thing will be far more difficult than you think. Moraine has had decades of practice in controlling her emotions, and Kelsier isn't as skilled with emotional allomancy as he is with other forms. Moraine would feel a shift that didn't make sense, and would suspect her opponent of doing it.

I never said it'd be easy. It has the potential to knock her flat, but that's only potential. If he had Duralumin, I'd be rooting for Kelsier, but without it, the odds lean in Moraine's favor.

As far as Kelsier's lack of skill goes, remember that his lack of skill mostly manifests in a lack of subtlety. If he uses "shock and awe" tactics, like Vin did to Straff, then this becomes less relevant.

That would also require an intimate knowledge about how the one power works, something Kel doesn't have :PPlus, as stated above, Aes sedai are masters of controlling their emotions. How this interacts with allomancy is anyone's guess.

The cage matches tend to play fast and loose with how much each player knows about the other's powers. If Kelsier doesn't know how much the One Power is dependent of emotions, he likely won't try this. On the other hand, if Moraine doesn't know how Allomancy works, then she's much less likely to notice a touch on her emotions. Even Kelsier is subtle enough if you don't recognize what's happening. If I recall, the only emotion meddling in WoT is the Warder bond, which Moraine can block. I don't think she can block Rioting/Soothing by the same method, which may cause her problems.

(If you haven't noticed, I think Moraine is more likely to win, but I'm rooting for Kelsier, so I'm working hard to find a justified way in which he could win.)

EDIT: I've started a thread for the combat potential of emotional Allomancy here

Edited March 24, 2012 by Sir Read-a-Lot

[Triasmus]

If kelsier could distract Moiraine from seeing him shoot a coin at her, I think he'd have a fairly good chance of winning. Or if he spray painted all of his coins black and wore a black costume and made sure to schedule the fight on a night with heavy rain (cloud cover).

[Arcanist Lupus]

If kelsier could distract Moiraine from seeing him shoot a coin at her, I think he'd have a fairly good chance of winning. Or if he spray painted all of his coins black and wore a black costume and made sure to schedule the fight on a night with heavy rain (cloud cover).

I favor him fighting in mist. Obviously, with tin, Kelsier would be hindered less than Moraine (although she might be able to blow it away, and he'd be more hindered than in the Scadrial mists). Also, I'm pretty sure Moraine needs to be able to see Kelsier to hit him, while the metal Moraine is wearing would tell Kelsier exactly where Moraine is at all times.

[Voidus]

Another thing to remember is that Moiraine has an upper limit to the amount of power she can use at one time, Kel is only limited by the amount of metal on him, I think Kel has the advantage in an incredibly short (read: instant) or a long match while Moiraine has the advantage in the middle.

[Arcanist Lupus]

Another thing to remember is that Moiraine has an upper limit to the amount of power she can use at one time, Kel is only limited by the amount of metal on him, I think Kel has the advantage in an incredibly short (read: instant) or a long match while Moiraine has the advantage in the middle.

Without Duralumin, Kel has an upper ceiling to the amount of power he can use at one time as well. So I'm not sure how Kel would benefit from an instant match.

Between pewter, and allomancy not using his strength, Kelsier could probably outlast Moraine. But that would require a situation where Moraine is using her power for a long period of time without killing Kel, which seems unlikely.

[Eerongal]

I favor him fighting in mist. Obviously, with tin, Kelsier would be hindered less than Moraine (although she might be able to blow it away, and he'd be more hindered than in the Scadrial mists). Also, I'm pretty sure Moraine needs to be able to see Kelsier to hit him, while the metal Moraine is wearing would tell Kelsier exactly where Moraine is at all times.

Actually, she doesn't need to see him. There's one point where one of the red ajah who went to capture the men in the black tower is getting hunted down by logain that she thinks to herself something like "I need to get out of his sight. Men, for whatever reason, always seem to think you need to see your target in order to set the weaves"

[Arcanist Lupus]

Actually, she doesn't need to see him. There's one point where one of the red ajah who went to capture the men in the black tower is getting hunted down by logain that she thinks to herself something like "I need to get out of his sight. Men, for whatever reason, always seem to think you need to see your target in order to set the weaves"

Hmm...

That certainly hurts Kelsier's chances. Especially if he assumes that visual contact is needed.

[name_here]

They require visual contact to create weaves but not to sustain them in most cases. Apparently it is sometimes possible to create weaves if they know the exact location of the target but lack visual contact.

But anyway, Kelsier doesn't need to throw metal objects at Moraine, because she generally makes the classic Allomancer fighting mistake of wearing bits of metal constantly, allowing hostile Mistborn to shove said objects directly without bothering with flinging coins.

[Voidus]

Sorry, when I said at one time I meant before she becomes exhausted, as the one power draws strength from the user a lot more than allomancy (except pewter-dragging but unless this fight goes on for 3 or so days we should be right )

[dhalagirl]

As much as I love Kel, I'm expecting Moiraine to win this one. As Shivertongue and Eero mentioned, rioting her emotions isn't likely to work. Not only is she an experienced Aes Sedai, she's also Cairhienien nobility. Double whammy. Not only can she control her emotions, she can plot, scheme and manipulate a foe without breaking a sweat. The fact that she's not as strong as she used to be shouldn't be an issue. This is the fourth round so it's safe to say that she's figured out a way to compensate for that (other than with an angreal).

[Voidus]

I'm still not convinced that she could stand up to a strong Riot, she could ignore her emotions but it would still prevent her from touching the source.

[Arcanist Lupus]

As much as I love Kel, I'm expecting Moiraine to win this one. As Shivertongue and Eero mentioned, rioting her emotions isn't likely to work. Not only is she an experienced Aes Sedai, she's also Cairhienien nobility. Double whammy. Not only can she control her emotions, she can plot, scheme and manipulate a foe without breaking a sweat. The fact that she's not as strong as she used to be shouldn't be an issue. This is the fourth round so it's safe to say that she's figured out a way to compensate for that (other than with an angreal).

You're probably right. If only Kelsier had Duralumin...

Although we shouldn't rule it out. After all, Kelsier has a history of finding metals that weren't previously known to exist, and meddling in places where he isn't supposed to be.

(and I still maintain that if you Riot shock and distraction suddenly, the target will be shocked and distracted, no matter how well they keep their emotions under control)

[Voidus]

Yeah, and don't forget soothing! If he soothed all feelings of calm and serenity while rioting distraction then Moiraine is not going to be calm or serene and will be distracted so yeah there is easily potential for Kel to win this fight.

[Shivertongue]

Moiraine has far more experience fighting under strenuous conditions. Any fear Kelsier could Riot is nothing compared to being on the front lines against a horde of Trollocs seeking to sate their bloodlust.

Rioted anger is nothing. Soothing calm is equally useless, because what emotion do you want her to feel? She is Blue Ajah, dedicated to a cause, with a dedication that runs deep. She has more focus than you can imagine. She can whip up a dozen weaves before Kelsier can get close enough with a dagger, and shield herself from any projectile.

In an actual fight, Kelsier doesn't stand a chance unless he takes her by surprise. But then, her wardings can warn her of such attacks.

If she has Lan, surprise is nothing.

[Voidus]

But if all of her calm is Soothed then it doesn't matter how determined she is, you cannot embrace the source without calm. (Unless you are Nynaeve) Basically experienced as she is at controlling emotions that are externally influenced, Kelsier directly manipulates emotions, no matter how good you are at avoiding being angry that doesn't make any difference once you actually are angry.

If we try and ascribe objective values to the level of emotion a person is feeling then it would look something like this.

Moiraine has iron hard self control and so even when confronted by a horde of Trollocs can keep her level of fear down at aroun 1 or 2 (out of say 10) However Kelsier directly manipulates emotions, rioting her fear to an 8 or 9.

There must be some minimum threshold of emotions (presumably lower than 5) above which someone cannot embrace the source all Kel has to do is Riot her emotions above this threshold making her unable to use the source.

Of course if Lan is with her then my vote goes towards Moiraine in a second. Even atium can't beat Lan

[Shivertongue]

But, remember that Aes Sedai are put through the worst possible torment to get the shawl. The test for the shawl is basically a test in keep hold of saidar in any situation, with every kind of emotional turmoil thrown at you from embarrassment to outright terror. They are focused on that calm, and if I remember correctly, Rioting and Soothing cannot get rid of or create emotions, only strengthen or weaken them, and if the target is focused enough, it gets much harder. You can Soothe away anger if they are really focused on being angry; calm is without a doubt the same.

[Voidus]

I don't think it was ever mentioned that strength of will could counter soothing or rioting, but I might be wrong, they do have to be feeling the emotion to soothe or riot it but calm is an emotion as well, so soothing that would work just as well as rioting other emotions, it's all about how relative the emotions are, if you feel more angry than calm then I doubt you could hold onto the source. I did think about the tests for the shawl but once again that's external sources of emotion, which could be controlled by supressing those emotions, but if there is a force which directly manipulates emotions to a certain level you cannot supress them.

[Eerongal]

I don't think it was ever mentioned that strength of will could counter soothing or rioting, but I might be wrong, they do have to be feeling the emotion to soothe or riot it but calm is an emotion as well, so soothing that would work just as well as rioting other emotions, it's all about how relative the emotions are, if you feel more angry than calm then I doubt you could hold onto the source. I did think about the tests for the shawl but once again that's external sources of emotion, which could be controlled by supressing those emotions, but if there is a force which directly manipulates emotions to a certain level you cannot supress them.

Sure you can. Regardless of WHERE the emotion comes from, it's still the same emotion, internally caused or externally. Fear of an 8 or 9 level (on one to ten) is the same if that fear is caused by a trolloc or by an allomancer rioting it. If you can suppress it in one situation, you can suppress it in another. The only boundary to what level of emotions you can't suppress is what goes beyond your personal reserves of will to do so.

And as mentioned, the test to be an aes sedai put through hundreds of situations to go against every possible range of emotions it can. No matter how hard Kel could riot her fear, i'm willing to bet that there was some situation in that test that's further beyond what kel could riot up to.

[Voidus]

Sure you can. Regardless of WHERE the emotion comes from, it's still the same emotion, internally caused or externally. Fear of an 8 or 9 level (on one to ten) is the same if that fear is caused by a trolloc or by an allomancer rioting it. If you can suppress it in one situation, you can suppress it in another. The only boundary to what level of emotions you can't suppress is what goes beyond your personal reserves of will to do so.

It depends how you supress it, I would say that Aes Sedai simply don't let their emotions reach an 8 or 9. If it was about ignoring your emotions then they could cope, but that is Saidins affair, not Saidar. Saidar is about maintaining calm, not ignoring other emotions, so yeah if it was an Ashaman I think that Rioting would be pointless but being able to never feel fear above a 2 doesn't matter if it actually reaches a 9 then they would still be unable to embrace the Source.

[Eerongal]

It depends how you supress it, I would say that Aes Sedai simply don't let their emotions reach an 8 or 9. If it was about ignoring your emotions then they could cope, but that is Saidins affair, not Saidar. Saidar is about maintaining calm, not ignoring other emotions, so yeah if it was an Ashaman I think that Rioting would be pointless but being able to never feel fear above a 2 doesn't matter if it actually reaches a 9 then they would still be unable to embrace the Source.

no, channel saidar doesn't have to do with maintaining calm, that's just what aes sedai do because of the command it gives them in interpersonal contact. Saidar has to do with surrendering to it, which i'm pretty sure is not something you could riot or soothe. Case and point, Nyaneve channels when angry (in a rage, no less) all the time, even after she's gotten past her block. And plenty of the wonder girl's PoV's talk about "fear racing through them" while they're channeling. Channeling the OP has nothing to do with maintaining a particular emotional state, just being in a lucid enough state that you keep fighting/surrendering.

[Voidus]

Actually one of the Aes Sedai (Can't remember who) told Nynaeve that she had been taught that what Nynaeve was doing was impossible. Moiraine having been a full Aes Sedai would have believed the same. It is possible that all Aes Sedai have actually developed a block where they cannot channel while feeling emotional turmoil. More likely though Nynaeve is just one of the exceptions. I'll try and find the quote, I think it's probably somewhere in the great hunt.

EDIT: I was way off, it was in LoC

"By all I've been taught, you should not be able to channel at all. I was taught you must be calm to channel, cool and serene inside, open and utterly yielding." -Theodrin

But yeah, basically Nynaeve is the exception.

Also now that I think about it, the test for the Shawl kind of proves the point, the entire point of that test is that Aes Sedai cannot channel unless completely calm, if they could already channel when embarrassed, afraid or angry then it's not really a test is it?

Edited March 24, 2012 by Voidus

[Keeper]

Unless you declare, vehemently, that Malazan is the best series ever and that if you don't like it, you just "don't get it, and should go back to children's books", then I don't put you in that camp.

Yeah I don't do that.

[Triasmus]

I think that suppressing rioting or soothing would be different than suppressing fear of a trolloc. With a trolloc, the aes sedai can look at it and think "k. it's a trolloc. I'm gonna remain calm though.". With rioting, depending on what knowledge Brandon gives Moiraine, she doesn't know Kelsier can do it, so it's unexpected. I haven't read mistborn in a while, so I don't really know how people suppress rioting. Do they realize they're being rioted so they "suppress" the riot, or do they just ignore that emotion. While Moiraine is figuring out how Kelsiers is rioting her, or how to suppress the riot, he'll have a small window of time (second or two, maybe more) to shoot a handful of coins at her unimpeded... unless Lan's there.

[Voidus]

Yeah, I don't think you can avoid it just by knowing it's happening, when Vin did it to Straff he still felt all the emotions (and then none) even though he had been told that she was doing it.

[Eerongal]

Actually one of the Aes Sedai (Can't remember who) told Nynaeve that she had been taught that what Nynaeve was doing was impossible. Moiraine having been a full Aes Sedai would have believed the same. It is possible that all Aes Sedai have actually developed a block where they cannot channel while feeling emotional turmoil. More likely though Nynaeve is just one of the exceptions. I'll try and find the quote, I think it's probably somewhere in the great hunt.

EDIT: I was way off, it was in LoC

"By all I've been taught, you should not be able to channel at all. I was taught you must be calm to channel, cool and serene inside, open and utterly yielding." -Theodrin

But yeah, basically Nynaeve is the exception.

Also now that I think about it, the test for the Shawl kind of proves the point, the entire point of that test is that Aes Sedai cannot channel unless completely calm, if they could already channel when embarrassed, afraid or angry then it's not really a test is it?

But Theodrin is only an accepted and doesn't necessarily know what she's talking about

Also, there's plenty more examples of people channeling when losing their calm. Lanfear does it all the time, Elaida does as well. Aviendha channels without being calm when she accidentally opens a gateway when rand surprises her and she freaks out. There's plenty of precedent to show that Theodrin was likely just wrong, and believing what she was taught.

I think that suppressing rioting or soothing would be different than suppressing fear of a trolloc. With a trolloc, the aes sedai can look at it and think "k. it's a trolloc. I'm gonna remain calm though.". With rioting, depending on what knowledge Brandon gives Moiraine, she doesn't know Kelsier can do it, so it's unexpected. I haven't read mistborn in a while, so I don't really know how people suppress rioting. Do they realize they're being rioted so they "suppress" the riot, or do they just ignore that emotion. While Moiraine is figuring out how Kelsiers is rioting her, or how to suppress the riot, he'll have a small window of time (second or two, maybe more) to shoot a handful of coins at her unimpeded... unless Lan's there.

I don't see why it would be any different. The same level of fear caused by an allomancer would be EXACTLY the same as the same level of fear caused by a trolloc. All the allomancer can do is increase or decrease the feeling to whatever extent they have the ability to. They can't manipulate how the person acts on or deals with the emotion. There's nothing intrinsically more "scary" than the same level of fear in either scenario. It doesn't matter what the cause it. A fear level of X is the same regardless of the source.