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Suvudu Cage Match 2012


dhalagirl

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Remember the Breaking? That was caused by every male channeler in the world at the time, of every power level. Admittedly, they were insane, with no restraint, and it was a time when channelers in general were more powerful than in the Third Age. I think Moraine could manage it.

However, I don't think Moraine would DO it. I was talking about channelers in general. And they wouldn't need to even know beforehand; battles with the One Power tend utilize the surrounding area on a frequent basis.

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Besides, if it were an Elantrian vs. a channel, it *has* to happen on Sel. The magic system is dependent on being close to Elantris, isn't it? I'd say the risk of a channeler messing with the terrain is much lower than the surety of being unable to access AonDor because you weren't anywhere near the city...

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On the other hand, Moraine wears metal objects constantly, which is more or less a death sentence against an Allomancer even especially if they're locked in position.

I mean, remember when Vin swatted a twenty-strong group of Hazekillers because one of them forgot to remove a metal belt buckle?

Right, but as soon as the channeler gets lifted in the air, they're likely to feel incredibly threatened and in danger (probably assuming it's a male channeler in kelsier's case), so an aes sedai (moraine) could easily deal a quick killing blow (not a concern for male channelers, since they have nothing stopping them from killing). I.E. setting the allomancer on fire/head exploding/etc.

And remember than channeling is basically as fast as thought, and an experience channeler can pull out weaves practically on muscle memory alone. They also don't need to SEE their target.

And come to think of it, if an allomancer is fully wrapped in air, they likely wouldn't be able to push and pull on any metal, since they wouldn't have line of effect to them. There's effectively a solid stone wall between them and the target, granted, it's invisible. I don't remember there being any particular incident of an allomancer being able to push/pull on something that they don't have a clear, unbroken line of nothing between them to.

However, I don't think Moraine would DO it. I was talking about channelers in general. And they wouldn't need to even know beforehand; battles with the One Power tend utilize the surrounding area on a frequent basis.

Which is mainly why i say that if it happens, it would happen by accident (exploding the ground sufficiently, hurling rocks, etc.) and not on purpose.

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if we're talking about disabling an Elantrian, the easiest way for a channeler to do that would be to just wrap them up in hard air, they can't do anything to you at all if they can't move their hands. That's what Moiraine would do, blowing up the landscape is not her style usually.

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And come to think of it, if an allomancer is fully wrapped in air, they likely wouldn't be able to push and pull on any metal, since they wouldn't have line of effect to them. There's effectively a solid stone wall between them and the target, granted, it's invisible. I don't remember there being any particular incident of an allomancer being able to push/pull on something that they don't have a clear, unbroken line of nothing between them to.

*AoL Spoilers*

While I'm sure I could think of other examples, remember that, in Alloy of Law, Wax manipulates the safety embedded within Vindicator, which was completely inaccessible to anyone except an Iron/Steel Allomancer. We also see Vin/Kelsier pull metal objects through other people, which would necessarily put those objects out of their line of sight because of the various organs and tissue in the way.

Edited by Kurkistan
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*AoL Spoilers*

While I'm sure I could think of other examples, remember that, in Alloy of Law, Wax manipulates the safety embedded within Vindicator, which was completely inaccessible to anyone except an Iron/Steel Allomancer. We also see Vin/Kelsier pull metal objects through other people, which would necessarily put those objects out of their line of sight because of the various organs and tissue in the way.

i'm relatively sure (though not 100% positive) that it was mentioned there was a slit/hole in vindicator through which the pull/pushing was done. Though I can't exactly remember the specifics of it, since i didnt really give it much thought.

Also, pushing/pulling from behind someone is significantly different than from behind a giant, completely solid piece of anything (stone, air, etc.). If a person could block line of effect, then the system wouldn't work very well for really anyone, but if a giant wall blocks it, then that could just be considered a pretty reasonable limitation on something that follows rules.

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i would say that shock would be a VERY hard emotion to riot (if you even could at all), since IIRC the emotion has to be all ready present in the first place before you can effect it with allomancy, Because shock shows up and is almost immediately gone, it's very short lived in general. Plus, reading an Aes Sedai to tell what emotion to sooth/riot would be very difficult since they are masters at keeping their composure (especially moraine)

All in all, from a powers perspective, the one power would, IMO, easily beat allomancy. This is because the one power is HIGHLY flexible in what it can do, and almost instantaneous, where as allomancy has a very specific set of powers with very strict rules governing it. Because the one power has the ability to practically do ANYTHING, one who uses it will likely have a very strong advantage towards beating someone who has allomancy. A much more fair fight might be an elantrian vs a channeler.

the one power definitely trumps Allomancy in terms of raw power. But if strength was all that mattered, Kelsier would have never beaten the Inquisitor.

And atium cannot be overlooked. The One Power doesn't have any equivalent to immediate foresight.

Kelsier will need a lot of metal though. This will be one expensive match for him.

Although if he can Soothe away Moraine's sense of threat...

Edited by Sir Read-a-Lot
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i'm relatively sure (though not 100% positive) that it was mentioned there was a slit/hole in vindicator through which the pull/pushing was done. Though I can't exactly remember the specifics of it, since i didnt really give it much thought.

Also, pushing/pulling from behind someone is significantly different than from behind a giant, completely solid piece of anything (stone, air, etc.). If a person could block line of effect, then the system wouldn't work very well for really anyone, but if a giant wall blocks it, then that could just be considered a pretty reasonable limitation on something that follows rules.

Page 234, Google Books:

Ranette: "[...] You burning Steel?"

Wax: "I am now."

R: "Metal lines in the grip"

W: "See them"

R: "Push the one on the left"

Something clicked inside the gun. Waxillium whistled softly.

"What?" Wayne Asked.

"Allomancer-only safety," Waxillium said. "You have to be a Coinshot or Lurcher to turn it off or on."

"The switch is embedded inside the grip," Ranette said. "No exterior sign that it's there[...]"

Also, if it was only a little slit, then it wouldn't be very useful for quick use (say, in a gunfight), since the Allomancer in question would have to align the gun perfectly with his/her center of mass in order to be able to "see through" the slit.

I also think that having "solid" objects block pushing/pulling is somewhat arbitrary. It could have been made a rule, but I see no reason why it should be one. We already have a limitation on range.

On top of that, I'm fairly sure that this rule is not part of Allomancy. Off the top of my head, I can recall Wax watching the metal-lines disappear through solid objects throughout a large portion of the town in the prologue, when gang-members hiding behind tables and pillars at the wedding, and through the floors and ceilings of that house at the climax of AoL. Vin was able to sense and pull on the metal "switches" embedded in the walls of TLR's storage caverns.

I have vague recollections of several scenes in other Mistborn books where I thought that we saw metal through significant amounts of material, but I can't recall them specifically.

Edited by Kurkistan
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There are quite a few. First one, Kelsier sees Vin's buckle through a wooden door right after he rescues her. He mentions that while iron lines are weaker when they go through wood/stone, they're still there. And besides, why would hardened air affect allomancy any different than regular air? It's the substance that matters, I think.

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Yea Ironeyes beat me to it on that one, if it's only through air that allomancy lines can pass then wrapping kel up in air would do absolutely nothing :P

This is a tough fight to call, I would really like to say Kel because Moiraine was never my favourite character but yea, hard to say for sure.

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By the way, would people mind voting for Erevis Cale? He's down by a hair right now, and I've been enjoying Kemp's write-ups immeasurably.

@Ironeyes

Curse you for your knowledge! I suppose that we lose some amount of ability to Pull/Push if solid objects intervene. It still doesn't make much sense to me, though. Are you positive that Kelsier said that the lines were weaker?

Edited by Kurkistan
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I voted for him Kurkistan. I've never heard of either so I'm happy to help out. I'm sure about that quote too. It's from when Vin was spying on Kelsier in Clubs's shop, I'm pretty sure while he was meeting with Marsh I can't find the page number at the moment.

Edit:

Found it!

The blue lines were thin and weak-they didn't do well penetrating wood-but they were just strong enough to let Kelsier locate the belt latch of a person out in the hallway, moving quickly away from the door on silent feet.
Edited by Windrunner
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Edit:

Found it!

The blue lines were thin and weak-they didn't do well penetrating wood-but they were just strong enough to let Kelsier locate the belt latch of a person out in the hallway, moving quickly away from the door on silent feet.

Actually, that possibly proves that dense material WILL block it, it just requires it to be of a certain density/thickness. :P

If it gets weaker through a plank of wood, then it stands to reason that either more wood, or better yet, stone, would make them even weaker (being larger, thicker, and denser).

Ipso-facto, air solidified and made dense would block it to whatever extent goes with its density/thickness (no idea what that would be, so its hard to say if would or wouldn't block it)

(that is, of course, if it's not substance-based as ironeyes says, which is sure i'm something we dont have an answer on either way :P)

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The thing with the matchup is that it's pretty much Rocket-Launcher tag. Ordinary people not equipped as Hazekillers who get within line-of-sight of hostile Mistborn just kind of die. But while pewter makes Mistborn more resistant to injury, and possibly able to withstand a channeled fireball (witness Spook's dash though fire with Hemalurgically decayed pewter), it's going to do little to withstand lighting bolts and nothing to stop balefire. So it's going to come down to who goes for a kill shot first, and potentially how quickly Moraine reacts to being unexpectedly flung. Given how quickly Allomancy throws people when the user is braced (say, by being entirely encased in steel-hard air) I think she'd get taken out of the fight by concussion in the quarter-second it takes for her to figure out what's going on and react.

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I voted for him Kurkistan. I've never heard of either so I'm happy to help out.

:D

I'm sure about that quote too. It's from when Vin was spying on Kelsier in Clubs's shop, I'm pretty sure while he was meeting with Marsh I can't find the page number at the moment.

Edit:

Found it!

*Grumble grumble* doesn't make sense *grumble*

:(

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Victory! Cale, Kelsier, and Moraine all went through. I'm glad we'll get to see more of Kemp's story, and I eagerly anticipate Brandon's write up of the K v M battle.

Edited by Kurkistan
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Sadly I think that's going to happen too, but you never know.

Well, i'm pretty sure that if Moraine/Kel doesn't beat Rake (i'm like 99% sure Moraine will beat Kel, so most likely Moraine), then i'm fairly sure Rake is probably going to win it. I don't think anyone on the other side of the brackets has the fan power to stand up to him....

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