Windrunner Posted April 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 I'll agree that Rao probably does that, but Raoden might not know, and it'll probably require some crazy undiscovered modifiers if even the Original Elantrians didn't have those tattoos. It's also not so easy to just teach everyone, I think Brandon has said that it often requires years of study, and some still won't get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Spoonface Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 It was mentioned earlier in a thread about this magic system that it could be fueled by a splinter of Skai, as you are, in a sense, dominating an object, imposing your will onto it in such a way that it overwrites the reality of the object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted April 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 Why would it have to be a Splinter of Dominion? The whole Shard is on Sel, it could easily power multiple magic systems. I doubt it's all Dominion though. You need Devotion to learn everything about an object's past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe ST Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 I guess it could be an application of two magic systems, one from a splinter of Aona and one from a splinter of Skai... *shrugs* that's just an off the wall guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulir Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 Well, if there isn't another Shard or Splinter on Sel, I'm kind of confused on to why there are 4 magic systems from 2 Shards. I can't wait for it to be out!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 Well, if there isn't another Shard or Splinter on Sel, I'm kind of confused on to why there are 4 magic systems from 2 Shards. I can't wait for it to be out!!!! Well we know that at least one of the magic systems was regionally bound so perhaps this grants a greater number of systems with each (or at least some) being tied to a region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulir Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 That definatly could work, Voidus, I like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted April 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) I guess it could be an application of two magic systems, one from a splinter of Aona and one from a splinter of Skai... *shrugs* that's just an off the wall guess Well, I thought that the Splinters of Devotion and Dominion are the Seons and Skaze, neiher of which appear to be powerful enough to fuel a magic system, let alone such an apparently complex and powerful system like Forgery. Do you think that there's possibly larger Splinters powering it? Well, if there isn't another Shard or Splinter on Sel, I'm kind of confused on to why there are 4 magic systems from 2 Shards. I can't wait for it to be out!!!! Well, from what I'm thinking, couldn't each race have a distinct cocktail of Devotion and Dominion in them, allowing them to access the Dor in different ways? So every race would have their own distinct powers. I wonder if the Emperor's people have any magic? They consider Forgers to be heathens so maybe they have magic that they think is "holy". Edited April 18, 2012 by Windrunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Spoonface Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 To me it seems like all of the other magic systems we know of on Sel are much more closely related, i.e. they all require symbols or shapes of a kind (ChayShan is the shape of the body). This one seems to have less to do with symbols and more with thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted April 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Well the shape of the Soulseal is still very important. As far as we know it's crafted to specify what shape the Forgery will take, at least to some extent. It seems like Awakening, it cannot be performed without the Command (or Soulseal) but the Cognitive impulse or visualization (knowledge) has more affect on what the magic does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Spoonface Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 That's what I meant- that the cognitive aspect is far more important in Forgery than apparently in Aon Dor or Dakhor or ChayShan. I wonder what causes that discrepancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deoradhan Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 (edited) It could be possible that it has to do with the Shards from which the power is derived. Possibly, the aforementioned magic systems are more of Devotion then they are of Dominion, and Forgery is what a more Dominion-based magic system looks like. If I recall correctly, wasn't there a scene towards the end of Elantris in which talk of DakhorDor was phrased in terms of devotion by Dialf? Moreover, the hierarchical system of Shu-Dereth feels like a hybrid between Devotion and Dominion. Individuals lower on the hierarchy are meant to be devoted to those higher, and those higher hold dominion over those lower. Even DakhorDor itself can be seen as derived from a mixture. It requires extreme devotion to undergo the horrors of Dakhor monestary, and grants you dominion over yourself. Contrast that with what we know of Forging, and my point becomes clear. Forging grants Dominion over the object being altered. It can be used to change the nature of anything from stones to human beings. Forging seems more emblematic of Dominion then Devotion - although at present, there is an unfortunate derth of evidence Maybe I'm just shoehorning this in, though. Edited April 23, 2012 by Deoradhan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted April 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 I personally think that Dakhor involves a lot of Dominion. If I'm not mistaken Dilaf mentions having to kill men or Dominate them to gain his Aon negation abilities. I could be wrong though. It was good of you to put the Elantris spoilers in the tags. I'll edit the title of the topic so people will know what to expect and we won't have to use spoiler tags. Also welcome to 17th Shard! If I'm not mistaken your relatively new here, and I don't believe we've met thus far. I hope you're enjoying it here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deoradhan Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) Quite true, hence why I mentioned it was probably drawn from a blend between the Shards. Forgery may be more of a 'pure' Dominion system. Of course, I could be wrong. Like others here, I'm curious to find out why there are 4 magic systems from 2 shards. And thank you for the warm welcome. Yeah, it's pretty fantastic, although I'll admit to being a tad bit intimidated by the depth of discussion occurring here. That being said, earlier post has been edited to remove spoiler tags, now that this is a spoiler thread Edited April 23, 2012 by Deoradhan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b4dave Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 I think it could be a combination of both. Just because we have seen two Shards with their own magic systems interact to create a third, doesn't mean that they aren't capable of creating more. i think of it as the 2 Shards are the parents and the subsequent magic systems are like children, and the two can create more than one magical system. Unless you are identical twins, no two children are the same, and even in the case of identical twins there are minute differences, and so it would be with the "hybrid" magic systems. My main point with this is who is to say that more than one magic system can't be created from the two? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted April 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 We know that more then one magic system has been created by Devotion and Dominion. This Forgery brings the count up to 4. AonDor, ChayShan, Dakhor, and Forgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triasmus Posted April 27, 2012 Report Share Posted April 27, 2012 I see no reason why every combination of two shards has to output magic systems like Ruin and Preservation did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaderAt2046 Posted April 28, 2012 Report Share Posted April 28, 2012 I have a thought: Could this be a hybrid between Dominion and a splinter of Deception? Seems to fit in with what we know so far about the magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted April 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2012 I don't see the need for another Shard being involved at all. Also why Deception? It's a cool name to be sure but from what I see this Shard has never been hinted at in any of the Cosmere books. Also we have no idea how the ability to use Forgery is obtained. The fact that it's about deceiving someone should have nothing to do with the Shard's intent. Intents only have an effect on how a magic is obtained. So if we knew you had to be a liar to use Forgery, I'd say, "Sure, that sounds like Deception". But since we don't know that, we can't really guess what Shard is involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted April 29, 2012 Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 New idea, could it be Wyrns system? The fact that he can forsee events leads a lot of crecedence him being very highly involved with a Shard of some kind. I would say that it's almost certainly to do with Dominion but I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted April 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 New idea, could it be Wyrns system? The fact that he can forsee events leads a lot of crecedence him being very highly involved with a Shard of some kind. I would say that it's almost certainly to do with Dominion but I'm not sure. In my opinion there are a couple problems with this. The first is that Wyrn is Fjordish, and their magic seems to be Dakhor, so if Wyrn is accessing any magic system it would be Dakhor. The second is that these stories will occur on different continents, a continent that the people in Elantris never mention and isn't under the dominion of Fjordell Empire. So the people in Elantris, including Wyrn, presumably don't know about this place. So I think it's a little unlikely, although not impossible, that Wyrn would be using a magic system from a place that he doesn't even know exists. Another problem is that Forgery appears to have next to nothing to do with foresight. It appears to be all about transforming and creating objects from what we have seen. The final problem I see comes from this quote by Brandon: LOCKE219 ()I know it's a RAFO, but how the eff did Wyrn see into the future? That seems above even a Shardholder's abilities! I bet that sucker's tapping into the Shadesmar. But I digress... BRANDON SANDERSON () Ha, wow, that is indeed a RAFO. Note that we have seen temporal abilities in the Cosmere before. Most of the time these are related directly to the pure essence of a Shard or to a Splinter. Source So it seems Wyrn may hold a Splinter of Dominion, or maybe be a Sliver. However, Seons and Skaze seem to be Slivers too, and they're nowhere near powerful enough to have a magic system. I hope this doesn't come across as harsh, in my opinion isn't just isn't a likely possibility. I hope I haven't offended you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted April 29, 2012 Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 Sorry I think this was just misinterpretation, I meant that he may be powering the system, or at least causing it to exist. We know he has had a lot of Shardic influence to be able to gain foresight LOCKE219 ()I know it's a RAFO, but how the eff did Wyrn see into the future? That seems above even a Shardholder's abilities! I bet that sucker's tapping into the Shadesmar. But I digress... BRANDON SANDERSON () Ha, wow, that is indeed a RAFO. Note that we have seen temporal abilities in the Cosmere before. Most of the time these are related directly to the pure essence of a Shard or to a Splinter. Now if he is just a splinter or has a splinter it has to be at the least more powerful than a Seon as they don't seem to have the ability of Foresight more powerful than a Returned even as they do not seem to have quite as specific Foresight although this could just have to do with the Shard they are Splinters of. I think that this has got to be (Shards aside) one of the more powerful entities in the Cosmere, either that or Wyrn has access to Dominions pure essence in some form and knows how to use it. I think that an entity of this power could conceivably power a system. So that's my reasoning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Spoonface Posted April 29, 2012 Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 I like the idea of each magic system being a sort of "cocktail" of the two shards. To explain why things happened differently on Scadrial than Sel, I propose the following: When humans were created on Scadrial, it was done because neither of the shards' intents allowed for the creation of humans alone. On Sel, however, it seems possible that both Dominion and Devotion could create humans on their own. Perhaps when humans were created on Sel, each Shard wanted more influence, and was trying to influence various peoples on Sel more than the other Shard. For example, when the Fjordell were created, Dominion got the majority of influence over them, but somehow or other, perhaps Devotion was able to sneak a little of its power in there as well. My point is that some sort of power war over the humans of Sel could explain varying degrees of influence from each shard. </insanetheory> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discipleofhoid Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 I like the idea of each magic system being a sort of "cocktail" of the two shards. To explain why things happened differently on Scadrial than Sel, I propose the following: When humans were created on Scadrial, it was done because neither of the shards' intents allowed for the creation of humans alone. On Sel, however, it seems possible that both Dominion and Devotion could create humans on their own. Perhaps when humans were created on Sel, each Shard wanted more influence, and was trying to influence various peoples on Sel more than the other Shard. For example, when the Fjordell were created, Dominion got the majority of influence over them, but somehow or other, perhaps Devotion was able to sneak a little of its power in there as well. My point is that some sort of power war over the humans of Sel could explain varying degrees of influence from each shard. </insanetheory> I don't know that dominion and devotion were necessarily opposed shards in the sense that preservation and ruin were. One can be devoted to a people they have dominion over( I think Prince Raoden is the perfect example of this.) <alternate insane theory> If Aona and Skai were cooperatively creating magic systems it would explain several things. It would explain why Rayse killed them so early in the scheme of things. Two shards really working together synergisticly hasn't been seen yet in the cosmere and I suspect that the power increase for shards working together would not be linear(Allomancy with feruchemy has an exponential growth pattern). It would also explain why there are so many mixed magic systems on Sel. IT would explain the existence of the Dor and why both the Dakor monks and the Elantrians seem to use it in some aspect. I suspect that the Dakor monks have found one of the darker and more dominion heavy magic systems to adapt. </alternate insane theory> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayonn Posted May 2, 2012 Report Share Posted May 2, 2012 Also, as Sarene (sort-of) points out, Devotion and Dominion have in common that both are types of unity. Devotion is unity-through-giving, Dominion is unity-through-conquest. But both of them are opposed to hatred, disunity, and Odium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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