777 may not be so lucky after all... Will Kaladin's promise haunt him?

[xland44]

Please note that this thread contains both WoR and tWoK spoilers.

You have been warned.

 

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While rereading tWoK, I noticed something interesting on page 777, the page where Kaladin and Tien enlisted to the army. Let me quickly quote it for you:

 

"In four years, I will bring him home safely," Kaladin said.

I promise it by the storms and the Almighty's tenth name it-self. I will bring him back."

I promise...

Seeing as in WoR kaladin mentioned that he must return to Hearthstone to warn them of the impending doom, he will surprise his parents by the fact that he is still alive - but what of tien?

He swore on the stormfather and the almighty himself, surely as a man of honour, this promise will haunt him in some way or another.

In addition, the way it repeats itself in the last line and italicizes it causes me to think that it will have some importance in the next book, most likely with his honor-relying relationship with Syl.

 

 

Just some Laral related speculations about the Bride prayer and the silversmiths

Also, what of Laral? I doubt she was going to marry Roshone - Did Brandon really add a few more useless details of marriage only to reveal to us later what happened to the silversmiths? I think that Roshone secretly offered her a deal that she will marry Kaladin but in return, Tien will be enlisted to the army.

 

What are your thoughts of these two speculations?

Edited August 24, 2014 by xland44

[Moogle]

Posts with WoR spoilers should go in the WoR subforum (at least, until we merge the WoR and WoK boards, which should happen six months or so after WoR's release). I've moved this thread there.

[maxal]

Kaladin's parents were most likely inform of their son's death. I doubt the army would not, at the very least give them such news. As for Kaladin, they were probably informed as well he has betrayed his superior officer and has thus been sold as a slave.

 

In all probability, they will express high surprised at seeing him, alive and free. Since he still arbor his slave mark, they may think he has escape and he may have issues proving he did not. I suspect Kaladin will have a hard time demonstrating who he really is and have people trust him.

 

As for Tien, I do not think it will pose problems. For one, he had not swear any oaths when Tien died. He cannot therefore be accused of breaking them and even if he had swore oath prior to Tien's death, he cannot be held accountable for a killing he was unable to stop. Kal could not have protected Tien. There is nothing more he could have done.

 

My reading of WoK is quite far in my head, so I do not recall any prayer and any silversmith. Regarding Laral, I sincerely doubt Roshone would have wanted to give status and rank to Kaladin of all people by offering her in marriage. Laral is an orphan from a low born lighteyed family. Marrying into Roshone's family surely is a boost in stature for her. Imo, she was set to marry his son, but his death force the father to take her instead. I guess it could be Roshone was asked to take care of Laral and the only he say fit was to marry her. If not, what was he supposed to do? There no suitable suitors out there in Heartstone, which was why Kal's father was so eager to get her engaged to his son. I guess he could have tried to set her with Amaram, but I think he had his eyes set on Jasnah at the time.

[Patrick Star]

In all probability, they will express high surprised at seeing him, alive and free. Since he still arbor his slave mark, they may think he has escape and he may have issues proving he did not. I suspect Kaladin will have a hard time demonstrating who he really is and have people trust him.

 

He'll just summon his Shardspear, shardshield, or whatever other form he wants Syl to take.  If that doesn't work, he'll glow and float around.  Also, his eyes will change color, and I don't think that Lighteyes can be enslaved (making the mark meaningless).

[maxal]

He'll just summon his Shardspear, shardshield, or whatever other form he wants Syl to take.  If that doesn't work, he'll glow and float around.  Also, his eyes will change color, and I don't think that Lighteyes can be enslaved (making the mark meaningless).

 

He may do these things, if he gets stormlight... He seems quite short on it currently.

[BlackYeti]

He may do these things, if he gets stormlight... He seems quite short on it currently.

 

He doesn't need Stormlight to summon his Shardblade, when he does this his eyes will become light again. This alone should solve the problem, and I doubt he'll have a problem finding Stormlight when he gets there.

 

I doubt that Tien's death will pose a problem to his bond with Syl, he was unable to fulfill his promise, but he didn't really break it. I imagine it will be of huge importance for his character interactions, but narratively he's already experienced his bond breaking due to his promises, it doesn't need to happen again.

[maxal]

He doesn't need Stormlight to summon his Shardblade, when he does this his eyes will become light again. This alone should solve the problem, and I doubt he'll have a problem finding Stormlight when he gets there.

 

I thought his eyes became light when he uses stormlight, not when he summoned his shardblade... Besides, just holding a shardblade won't absolute him. He still has his slash brand and to most people, this marks him as a criminal. Not the mention the king ransom he carries in gems... I am pretty sure his first arc in Stones Unhallowed will have to deal with Kal being taken for a runaway and a thief. I think he'll struggle to prove he is something else, until at least he gets his hands on stormlight.

 

 

I doubt that Tien's death will pose a problem to his bond with Syl, he was unable to fulfill his promise, but he didn't really break it. I imagine it will be of huge importance for his character interactions, but narratively he's already experienced his bond breaking due to his promises, it doesn't need to happen again.

 

Yeah, I seriously doubt Brandon will have Kal break is oaths *again* or any characters for that matter. I do not see it as huge. He made a promise to his young brother, a foolish one he could not hope to fulfill, but he made it nonetheless, youth making him believe he might. It would hugely mean for Syl to hold it against him (or anyone for that matter). Radiant-wise, it is a no issue has he was not one at the time. Besides, I doubt Radiants are forced to withhold promises they made but failed to keep while really trying to. Kal lost his bound with Syl because he purposely broke his oaths when he decided to innocently murder Elhokar. He was to blame, 100%. Tien, what fault did Kal did but making a promise he intended to keep but failed to?

[BlackYeti]

I thought his eyes became light when he uses stormlight, not when he summoned his shardblade... Besides, just holding a shardblade won't absolute him. He still has his slash brand and to most people, this marks him as a criminal. Not the mention the king ransom he carries in gems... I am pretty sure his first arc in Stones Unhallowed will have to deal with Kal being taken for a runaway and a thief. I think he'll struggle to prove he is something else, until at least he gets his hands on stormlight.

 

In Brandon's reading from Kaladin's POV from Stormlight 3, he explicitly says that either touching Stormlight or summoning his Shardblade will change his eye colour.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14qEu6qv8u0rlbCvE1HKFRYkI5tSQ-5ulMiM5_QEBowg/edit#

 

Having a Shardblade automatically makes him a high ranking lighteyes. Dalinar said that "either you execute a Shardbearer or leave him free".  I really like your theory and would not mind being wrong here at all, but as it stands I don't see how he could be held as a criminal.

[maxal]

In Brandon's reading from Kaladin's POV from Stormlight 3, he explicitly says that either touching Stormlight or summoning his Shardblade will change his eye colour.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14qEu6qv8u0rlbCvE1HKFRYkI5tSQ-5ulMiM5_QEBowg/edit#

 

Having a Shardblade automatically makes him a high ranking lighteyes. Dalinar said that "either you execute a Shardbearer or leave him free".  I really like your theory and would not mind being wrong here at all, but as it stands I don't see how he could be held as a criminal.

 

People will have a hard time believing how a darkeye with a slash brand came to carry a shardblade... Considering he also is carrying a ridiculously huge amount of money, he is wearing a tattered uniform and he is alone without any plausible ties, people may believe he stole it all. Think about it, darkeyes just don't get to become shardbearers. It happened in the past, but it happened so many few times those who got to be shardbearers were remember throughout history. People will most likely assumed he murdered a shardbearer in the dark, stole his blade and stole the money afterwards. After all, he is branded as a dangerous criminal.

 

I believe that, until he gets stormlight, until he gets to demonstrate without a doubt he is a Radiant, people won't believe him. They'll take him as a criminal and having a sharblade won't change a thing. Besides, shardbearers just don't wander in the middle of nowhere, on foot, without any escort unless they are fugitive.

[Patrick Star]

Maybe he could just grow his hair past the brand?  Have it obscured somehow?

[maxal]

Maybe he could just grow his hair past the brand?  Have it obscured somehow?

 

I doubt his hair can grow fast enough to cover it all... Besides, it's on his forehead, so I guess he'll need to cut himself a bang.... Or perhaps getting the bowl haircut, you know Howards' style (from Big Bang Theory)?

[Patrick Star]

In WoR, it mentions how his long hair made it difficult to see the tattoo, so I doubt growing it will be a huge issue.

 

More along the lines of getting it to stay obstructive.  Headband, maybe?

[Talanic]

He also promised the men of Bridge Four that none of them would die anymore.  That promise has been broken many times since.  I suspect it only counts as a broken oath when it's violated deliberately or negligently - trying your hardest to do right and failing still counts. It's only when you make up your mind to break an oath, or can't be bothered to fulfill it, that you fail.

 

 

People will have a hard time believing how a darkeye with a slash brand came to carry a shardblade... Considering he also is carrying a ridiculously huge amount of money, he is wearing a tattered uniform and he is alone without any plausible ties, people may believe he stole it all. 

 

Remember, if they see him holding a Shardblade, he won't be a darkeyes.  While he holds one, he's lighteyed.  Also keep in mind that the idea of a darkeyes murdering a Shardbearer is almost too ludicrous for words; Shardbearers are nigh-unstoppable killing machines. 

 

Also, he has one more thing in his favor.  He comes with information about the Everstorm, and it's entirely probable that the people he's coming to meet have noticed that a Highstorm was blowing the wrong way, and will be interested in knowing why.

 

That doesn't mean that I think that he won't have any of the problems you've listed.  Just that I think he's got a few things to fall back on.

[Arondell]

People will have a hard time believing how a darkeye with a slash brand came to carry a shardblade... Considering he also is carrying a ridiculously huge amount of money, he is wearing a tattered uniform and he is alone without any plausible ties, people may believe he stole it all. Think about it, darkeyes just don't get to become shardbearers. It happened in the past, but it happened so many few times those who got to be shardbearers were remember throughout history. People will most likely assumed he murdered a shardbearer in the dark, stole his blade and stole the money afterwards. After all, he is branded as a dangerous criminal.

 

I believe that, until he gets stormlight, until he gets to demonstrate without a doubt he is a Radiant, people won't believe him. They'll take him as a criminal and having a sharblade won't change a thing. Besides, shardbearers just don't wander in the middle of nowhere, on foot, without any escort unless they are fugitive.

 

Eh...He could just summon Syl as a shard spear or as a dagger or even just a shield.  He could also dismiss and resummon Syl instantly in all three forms consecutively.   It would be very easy for him to show conclusively that his blade is quite different from others.  As for the stormlight all he needs is a tiny bit.   Seems likely that there are at least a few clear chips floating around that he could suck the stormlight out of.   Even this is assuming that Lirin doesn't have those thousand diamond bromes anymore.

 

I actually will be kind of disappointed if Mr. Sanderson contorts the situation to a degree where it actually is difficult for Kaladin to prove what he is.  Now I can certainly see Kaladin having problems because he is a Radiant.  Remember that society has vilified the Radiants for centuries because of the Recreance.  I suspect ardents in particular are, at best, going to be very conflicted about them.  Now we have someone appearing right after this terrible wrong way storm has passed through claiming to belong to this group that betrayed them to the voidbringers.  Fear and confusion is probably the best Kaladin can expect in any initial reactions.

[hoser]

He already failed to save Tien.  If there is a consequence for the bond, it has already occurred.  In a sense, his commitment to protecting kids like Tien is what drew Syl to Kal in the first place (she said the gratitude of his squadmembers was a distinguishing factor).  IIRC, he wrote to his parents, telling them that Tien was dead and that he would not be returning, so they already know that Tien is dead.  His parents, if they are still there, will likely be overjoyed to see him. 

 

SA3 Spoilers:

The Everstorm has come already. The Parshmen have likely turned to Voidbringers and wrought havoc. People may be very interested in a Shardbearer who can explain things, no matter how scary.  If Roshone's parshmen have turned on the people, Roshone's leadership will already be challenged.  

Edited August 25, 2014 by hoser

[dyring]

Kaladin propably gets to heartstone before the everstorm hits it thou. So he might have issues making people belive him when he sais a highstorm bloving the other way is coming.

 

Everstorm will need to go all around the planet before hitting alethkar.

[Talanic]

Apparently not.  According to the document linked earlier, the Everstorm hits it days before he arrives.  Which means he may have a bigger problem on his hands - former Parshmen.

[xland44]

Inb4 Roshone stormed up Lirin's life after Kaladin left so Lirin decided to use the broams to move to Karbaranth and use the money for his own studies and he isn't in Hearthstone after all...

That would just be a sad scenario :l

[maxal]

In WoR, it mentions how his long hair made it difficult to see the tattoo, so I doubt growing it will be a huge issue.

 

More along the lines of getting it to stay obstructive.  Headband, maybe?

 

Should we launch a thread to discuss potential hair does for Kal ? Perhaps he should adopt the Jack Sparrow look: with dreads and a pirate headband and/or hat? :ph34r: If he ever pull out the Howard haircut, I think he may end losing all credibility

 

 

Remember, if they see him holding a Shardblade, he won't be a darkeyes.  While he holds one, he's lighteyed.  Also keep in mind that the idea of a darkeyes murdering a Shardbearer is almost too ludicrous for words; Shardbearers are nigh-unstoppable killing machines.

 

They are unstoppable on the battle field, but they still are vulnerable to assassins. They can still succumb to poison or to a knife in the dark... It must not happen quite often as it would nearly be impossible for a darkeye to get away with such a deed even bearing in mind he ends up a shardbearer.

 

I honestly would not be surprised if people thought Kal got his shardblade illegally. Brandon put too much emphasis on how battered Kal was, how stupid he was to have forgotten his Cobalt guard uniform, how unusual it is for him to carry so much gems not to use it.

 

Besides, why would a shardbearer end up alone, in the middle of nowhere, unable to cite a plausible family name, clearly low born with a slash mark, carrying a king ransom in gems? Why if not because he is a fugitive? I agree Kal has a few tricks in his leaves, but he has always been reluctant to use his powers in front of people.

 

 

Eh...He could just summon Syl as a shard spear or as a dagger or even just a shield.  He could also dismiss and resummon Syl instantly in all three forms consecutively.   It would be very easy for him to show conclusively that his blade is quite different from others.  As for the stormlight all he needs is a tiny bit.   Seems likely that there are at least a few clear chips floating around that he could suck the stormlight out of.   Even this is assuming that Lirin doesn't have those thousand diamond bromes anymore.

 

I actually will be kind of disappointed if Mr. Sanderson contorts the situation to a degree where it actually is difficult for Kaladin to prove what he is.  Now I can certainly see Kaladin having problems because he is a Radiant.  Remember that society has vilified the Radiants for centuries because of the Recreance.  I suspect ardents in particular are, at best, going to be very conflicted about them.  Now we have someone appearing right after this terrible wrong way storm has passed through claiming to belong to this group that betrayed them to the voidbringers.  Fear and confusion is probably the best Kaladin can expect in any initial reactions.

 

I will be disappointed if people readily believe Kal is what he is. It is too unseemly. They won't believe it. They won't believe he is a Radiant, not until he saves all their sorry butts. Radiants are feared and are a thing of the past. People won't come forward, nod their heads and say, oh right, he has a spren, he has, sometimes, lighteyes, he can do stuff, we must put him in charge... At best, they will accept he is a Radiant, but they won't trust him, but I think it is more likely they will think he is a fraud. Radiant, in the head of people are magnificent and Kal just does not look the part: he looks like a beggar,a thied and a criminal and I believe this is exactly what people will see.

[Arondell]

 

I will be disappointed if people readily believe Kal is what he is. It is too unseemly. They won't believe it. They won't believe he is a Radiant, not until he saves all their sorry butts. Radiants are feared and are a thing of the past. People won't come forward, nod their heads and say, oh right, he has a spren, he has, sometimes, lighteyes, he can do stuff, we must put him in charge... At best, they will accept he is a Radiant, but they won't trust him, but I think it is more likely they will think he is a fraud. Radiant, in the head of people are magnificent and Kal just does not look the part: he looks like a beggar,a thied and a criminal and I believe this is exactly what people will see.

 

I'm not exactly sure how Kaladin will handle his initial contact.  Maybe he won't immediately tell anyone he is a Radiant.  On the other hand a couple of things will have to happen to prevent him from giving easy proof that he has powers and capabilities that are of the Radiants.

 

1. Something has to keep him from summoning Syl as a shard blade.  Preventing him from demonstrating that his blade has far more capability then a standard shardblade.(Preventing a change of eye color.)

2. Stop him from coming into range of any infused spheres thus preventing him from demonstrating/using his surgebinding powers directly. (Also preventing a change of eyecolor.)

 

I can vaguely see number two happening but I can't imagine what would be able to keep him from summoning Syl as a shard blade/spear/shield/ladle.  In addition the towns people can think whatever they want about Kaladin but they aren't going to particularly bother anyone who is carrying around a shard weapon of any kind.  A lot of this depends on the precise circumstances when he finally gets to Hearthstone.

 

As for putting him in charge I think that is a non-starter.  Kaladin isn't coming to take charge of the town.  He is just coming to try to ensure the towns safety.  Once he has done that and had a heart to heart with his parents I expect he will be moving on.   I believe Dalinar was hoping he would head to Kholinar after he ensured Hearthstones safety. 

[BlackYeti]

I can't imagine what would be able to keep him from summoning Syl as a shard blade/spear/shield/ladle.

 

We need to see a Shardladle: this is brilliant. 

 

I think maxal has persuaded me somewhat here. I don't think that there is much that Roshone would be able to do to Kaladin, but I don't think that they'll trust him at all, at least for the first part of the book.

[Musica]

What about this scenario- Roshine died when the Everstorm came/some time before, and Laral, as his wife (now widow) took over the leadership responsibilities of the survivors alongside Lirin (or maybe Hesnia- whichever one is still alive, in case one of them died).

That would make for the most compelling character growth for Laral, who is still a potential emotional tangle for Kal, and who I hope to see take a more important role in the story. It would also make for an interesting twist, especially if she is cooperating with Kaladin's parents/parent.

Or maybe if Roshine IS alive, he will have to cooperate with Lirin, which should be interesting. It would also continue the whole Justice-versus-Revenge theme in Kaladin's arc.

What do you think?

[maxal]

I can vaguely see number two happening but I can't imagine what would be able to keep him from summoning Syl as a shard blade/spear/shield/ladle.  In addition the towns people can think whatever they want about Kaladin but they aren't going to particularly bother anyone who is carrying around a shard weapon of any kind.  A lot of this depends on the precise circumstances when he finally gets to Hearthstone.

 

We have to remember Kaladin does not make it to Heartstone: he runs out of stormlight in Aladar. I strongly suspect he will meet up with a few "important people" or he may transit in a large city on the way there. If he is found by the authorities (not Roshone, I am thinking higher ranked lighteyed), he may get into trouble.

 

 

As for putting him in charge I think that is a non-starter.  Kaladin isn't coming to take charge of the town.  He is just coming to try to ensure the towns safety.  Once he has done that and had a heart to heart with his parents I expect he will be moving on.   I believe Dalinar was hoping he would head to Kholinar after he ensured Hearthstones safety. 

 

I think Kal will end up in charge by the sheer force of things. He will have to earn his leadership, it won't be handed down to him. As for Kohlinar, I don't know what came to Dalinar's mind to ask Kal to stop there... Nobody there will ever listen to Kal or even give him a say. Kal is ignorant in lighteye protocol and is not at ease amongst them. I don't think he is the good person to calm Kohlinar.

Edited August 26, 2014 by maxal

[maxal]

What about this scenario- Roshine died when the Everstorm came/some time before, and Laral, as his wife (now widow) took over the leadership responsibilities of the survivors alongside Lirin (or maybe Hesnia- whichever one is still alive, in case one of them died).

That would make for the most compelling character growth for Laral, who is still a potential emotional tangle for Kal, and who I hope to see take a more important role in the story. It would also make for an interesting twist, especially if she is cooperating with Kaladin's parents/parent.

Or maybe if Roshine IS alive, he will have to cooperate with Lirin, which should be interesting. It would also continue the whole Justice-versus-Revenge theme in Kaladin's arc.

What do you think?

 

I think these are interesting ideas. I especially like the first one. Kaladin needs closure with Laral and I hope he will get it.

 

I do think you are right in saying the whole honor-revenge arc is not entirely finish for Kaladin. However, I do hope he will deal with Roshone in a honorable way: he will demote him by demonstrating he is a better leader. He will earn his position as opposed to have being hand over. I will be even more bold to say he may be the first stone into the future Alethkar: a more egalitarian society where eye color and birth rank does not matter so much.

[hoser]

We have to remember Kaladin does not make it to Heartstone: he runs out of stormlight in Aladar. I strongly suspect he will meet up with a few "important people" or he may transit in a large city on the way there. If he is found by the authorities (not Roshone, I am thinking higher ranked lighteyed), he may get into trouble.

...

I think he is basically there, and just has to walk to the hills he already sees.  The next city he sees will be Hearthstone.  Consider the following excerpt (SA3 spoiler):

I swear I recognize this place, he thought to himself, cresting a hill. A river broke the landscape to his right, but it was small and impermanent, it would only flow during a storm. Still trees sprouted along its banks hungry for the extra water and they marked the route. Yes, that would be Hobble’s Brook, so if he looked directly west… Hand shading his eyes, he spotted them, cultivated hills.

Edited August 26, 2014 by hoser